Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[chimpos]

Trams are awesome suck it up haters

[Alfred]

Didn't want them... Those electrified trolly/bendy buses you see in Europe would have done the job with a lot less hassle.

 

Now that we have them though, we need to do it bloody right!

[Cade]

Ok i'll buck the trend on this thread.

 

I see the environmental/sustainable point of the trams and that's the whole reason for them. I'm looking forward to it, yes it's been a hassle, but you can't have the flooring replaced in your house without a huge hassle and that always costs more than you would expect.

 

I'm not pandering to the Evening News hysteria "Man walks in front of trams" - "Tram cant move as car parks in front of it - We told you so"

 

Trams run on electricity.

Electricity comes from power stations.

Power stations run mostly on coal and gas or incinerated waste.

The Scottish Government's own figures say that the Trams will have an overall INCREASE in Co2 pollution levels due to the power stations having to pump out tons of leccy to keep the things running.

[Cade]

Embra Coosil is paying back a giant loan at the rats of ?15.5million per year for the next 30 years......so when you want something to blame for leisure centres closing down, school class sizes being too big, the roads being in a state or your bins only being picked up once a fortnight, blame the trams loan.

 

The trams are also expected to run at a loss every year for the first 15 years of operation. Lothian buses will have to pick up the shortfall. More bus ticket rise for everybody just to pay for the trams.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Most council subsidised services run at a loss, that's why they are subsidised.

 

The council is not there to provide services that make a profit they are there to provide services that are useful to the populous.

[hughesie27]

Most council subsidised services run at a loss, that's why they are subsidised.

 

The council is not there to provide services that make a profit they are there to provide services that are useful to the populous.

Good point.

The trams are not that though.

[Armageddon]

 

 

 

Trams run on electricity.

Electricity comes from power stations.

Power stations run mostly on coal and gas or incinerated waste.

The Scottish Government's own figures say that the Trams will have an overall INCREASE in Co2 pollution levels due to the power stations having to pump out tons of leccy to keep the things running.

Embra Coosil is paying back a giant loan at the rats of ?15.5million per year for the next 30 years......so when you want something to blame for leisure centres closing down, school class sizes being too big, the roads being in a state or your bins only being picked up once a fortnight, blame the trams loan.

 

The trams are also expected to run at a loss every year for the first 15 years of operation. Lothian buses will have to pick up the shortfall. More bus ticket rise for everybody just to pay for the trams.

 

You chain yourself to gates at nuclear power plants and animal testing plants eh???

[Cade]

You chain yourself to gates at nuclear power plants and animal testing plants eh???

 

Eh naw, I just really hate the fecking trams. ?1.2billion for a single line that is more expensive, slower and more polluting than the service we have already.

[H2]

Trams run on electricity.

Electricity comes from power stations.

Power stations run mostly on coal and gas or incinerated waste.

The Scottish Government's own figures say that the Trams will have an overall INCREASE in Co2 pollution levels due to the power stations having to pump out tons of leccy to keep the things running.

Add on all the additional fuel wasted by the cars in the congestion created by the trams. They forgot to employ a rocket sceintsit to tell them about the congestion creation. The Gyle is going to be a complete nightmare at peak times.

[frankblack]

Add on all the additional fuel wasted by the cars in the congestion created by the trams. They forgot to employ a rocket sceintsit to tell them about the congestion creation. The Gyle is going to be a complete nightmare at peak times.

 

At rush hour times Princes Street, which is only open to buses, taxis, and bikes is like a bus park with buses causing tailbacks for others. When these monstrosities come by there will be even further congestion. It should be on the train tracks to Waverley rather than the busiest street in Edinburgh.

[FWJ]

 

 

 

Eh naw, I just really hate the fecking trams. ?1.2billion for a single line that is more expensive, slower and more polluting than the service we have already.

?1.2billion now, is it? When did that happen?

[FWJ]

 

 

 

Trams run on electricity.

Electricity comes from power stations.

Power stations run mostly on coal and gas or incinerated waste.

The Scottish Government's own figures say that the Trams will have an overall INCREASE in Co2 pollution levels due to the power stations having to pump out tons of leccy to keep the things running....

I thought in Scotland electricity came mostly from nuclear and increasingly from renewables? Less and less from coal (Cockenzie)

[Gavsy Van Gaverson]

 

 

I thought in Scotland electricity came mostly from nuclear and increasingly from renewables? Less and less from coal (Cockenzie)

 

Don't speak the truth. These trams will destroy the environment

[Gavsy Van Gaverson]

 

 

I thought in Scotland electricity came mostly from nuclear and increasingly from renewables? Less and less from coal (Cockenzie)

 

Don't speak the truth. These trams will destroy the environment

[JamboX2]

Embra Coosil is paying back a giant loan at the rats of ?15.5million per year for the next 30 years......so when you want something to blame for leisure centres closing down, school class sizes being too big, the roads being in a state or your bins only being picked up once a fortnight, blame the trams loan.

 

The trams are also expected to run at a loss every year for the first 15 years of operation. Lothian buses will have to pick up the shortfall. More bus ticket rise for everybody just to pay for the trams.

 

If only local government was given back its financial independence with prudent borrowing powers. Perhaps then we could invest in a crumbling facade that is Edinburgh's infrastructure system.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

?1.2billion now, is it? When did that happen?

He's included the backhanders that people got for this extravagant toy.

Did anyone ever get sectioned for dreaming up this project?

Edited March 22, 2014 by The Real Maroonblood

[JamboX2]

2 things Edinburgh should've done instead of pandering:

 

1. City centre congestion zone

 

2. Commitment to full line completion

 

2 things the Scottish Government should've done;

 

1. Step in sooner to rescue the project instead of an aloof political shirking

 

2. Set up the inquiry they demanded which was scrapped after they stepped in.

 

Here in lies the main errors throughout this issue and why no one comes out well. A good idea wrecked on poor council decisions and a government more concerned with polls and popularity than getting the job done.

Edited March 22, 2014 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

 

 

At rush hour times Princes Street, which is only open to buses, taxis, and bikes is like a bus park with buses causing tailbacks for others. When these monstrosities come by there will be even further congestion. It should be on the train tracks to Waverley rather than the busiest street in Edinburgh.

 

Then it wouldnt be a tram. EARL, the proposed rail link to the airport, was scrapped in 2007 by the SNP. It was the better idea and one which should've gone ahead.

 

But it didnt. Democracy gave us a tram majority and a EARL defeat.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

Then it wouldnt be a tram. EARL, the proposed rail link to the airport, was scrapped in 2007 by the SNP. It was the better idea and one which should've gone ahead.

 

But it didnt. Democracy gave us a tram majority and a EARL defeat.

Was there ever an estimate on the cost of a rail link?

Edited March 22, 2014 by The Real Maroonblood

[JamboX2]

 

Was there ever an estimate on the cost of a rail link?

 

Dont have figures to hand but both EARL and GARL were at advanced planning stages when cancelled. GARL had bought land out to Glasgow Airport early on whilst EARL went at a slower pace. Sound idea.

 

Hazard a guess it'd probably end up around the few hundred million mark?

 

Run train right into a terminus connected to the terminal building. Trains from Waverly and further east and trains from/to fife & beyond. Excellent idea. Grows Edinburgh's airport, invests in rail, cuts congestion on the roads and creates jobs. Hope it is resurrected.

 

Edit: http://www.earlproject.com/qanda.php#05

 

?500m was expected costs.

Edited March 22, 2014 by JamboX2

[milky_26]

Dont have figures to hand but both EARL and GARL were at advanced planning stages when cancelled. GARL had bought land out to Glasgow Airport early on whilst EARL went at a slower pace. Sound idea.

 

Hazard a guess it'd probably end up around the few hundred million mark?

 

Run train right into a terminus connected to the terminal building. Trains from Waverly and further east and trains from/to fife & beyond. Excellent idea. Grows Edinburgh's airport, invests in rail, cuts congestion on the roads and creates jobs. Hope it is resurrected.

 

Edit: http://www.earlproje...om/qanda.php#05

 

?500m was expected costs.

the worst thing about the GARL was buying the land off John McGlynn for ?840k and then after it was scrapped selling it back to him for ?59k

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/call-for-inquiry-over-glasgow-airport-rail-link-1-3175781

[FWJ]

 

 

He's included the backhanders that people got for this extravagant toy.

Did anyone ever get sectioned for dreaming up this project?

What? ? 200,000,000 ..... Really?

 

?200million quid is a lot of backhanders.

[leginten]

 

the worst thing about the GARL was buying the land off John McGlynn for ?840k and then after it was scrapped selling it back to him for ?59k

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/call-for-inquiry-over-glasgow-airport-rail-link-1-3175781

 

Sounds as if the original budgeting was about as sound as that for the Scottish Parliament building and the Edinburgh trams fiasco. Out-of-their-depth politicians playing fast and loose with the public purse. ?7.8m to ?70m to ?176m? Thank God someone had the sense to pull the plug.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

Dont have figures to hand but both EARL and GARL were at advanced planning stages when cancelled. GARL had bought land out to Glasgow Airport early on whilst EARL went at a slower pace. Sound idea.

 

Hazard a guess it'd probably end up around the few hundred million mark?

 

Run train right into a terminus connected to the terminal building. Trains from Waverly and further east and trains from/to fife & beyond. Excellent idea. Grows Edinburgh's airport, invests in rail, cuts congestion on the roads and creates jobs. Hope it is resurrected.

 

Edit: http://www.earlproject.com/qanda.php#05

 

?500m was expected costs.

Thanks for that.

It was always a bone of contention with me why that option was never picked.

It seemed so logical but I suppose logic is not considered.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

What? ? 200,000,000 ..... Really?

 

?200million quid is a lot of backhanders.

A lot of corrupt people out there.

[leginten]

 

2 things Edinburgh should've done instead of pandering:

 

1. City centre congestion zone

 

2. Commitment to full line completion

 

2 things the Scottish Government should've done;

 

1. Step in sooner to rescue the project instead of an aloof political shirking

 

2. Set up the inquiry they demanded which was scrapped after they stepped in.

 

Here in lies the main errors throughout this issue and why no one comes out well. A good idea wrecked on poor council decisions and a government more concerned with polls and popularity than getting the job done.

 

If they were going to complete it, I agree they should have gone the whole hog and extended to Newhaven. The cost would have been horrendous, but at least the whole project might have had some credibility.

 

What the SNP government should really have done is step in and cancel the whole sorry mess. That way the citizens of Edinburgh, whose council has announced that it will be spending less on road repairs this year than last, might not have to put up with the fact that the entire road network of the capital is a patchwork of potholes, shoddy repairs and crumbling pavements. This state of affairs is an increasing embarrassment to a city of UNESCO World Heritage sites. It's an eyesore, and it will only get worse. This is without even mentioning the other cuts that are taking place in education etc. All so that we can have half a tram line of dubious benefit.

 

Then they should have seized the assets of the numpty councillors who voted for the project and sold them off in an attempt to recoup some of the losses or pay some decent compensation to the people whose shops and businesses were ruined in Leith Walk. Pour encourager les autres.

[Stuart Lyon]

Don't forget the money wasted on the CERT (City of Edinburgh Rapid Transport) project in the 1990s that encourage many firms to locate at the Gyle but came to nothing.

[Cade]

?1.2bil includes the interest on the giant loan the coonsil took out

[FWJ]

 

?1.2bil includes the interest on the giant loan the coonsil took out

I thought adding the interest on the loan took it to a billion - when the extra ?200 million get added on?

[Coco]

If only local government was given back its financial independence with prudent borrowing powers. Perhaps then we could invest in a crumbling facade that is Edinburgh's infrastructure system.

 

Edinburgh Council had debt of ?1.4bn (plus a variety of other liabilities including a pension liability of ?450m) as of 2013.

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/12115/audited_statement_of_accounts_2012-2013

 

Council tax revenue totals roughly ?200m pa. The debt to income ratios are way out of kilter with prudent performance.

 

Same document says that tram spending as of April 2013 was ?736m. Total budget is ?776m. So either the last year of work is costing ?40m (including these latest handbacks to companies previously suffering tram extortion) or other budgets are being raided with the implication that has for other areas of Council spending. The references to ?1bn tram include the borrowing costs involved over the next 30 years (but not the tens of millions of pounds of operating losses pa).

[FWJ]

Just as a matter of interest, pardon the pun, but is it normal practice to add the cost of the interest onto the price? For example, does the ?3 billion it's going to cost dualling some of the A9 include interest? Or the ?1.5 billion the Queensferry Crossing is costing? The government is running a deficit - so I presume these costs get added to the deficit and we interest on that?

[Chester™]

And they want to go to Newhaven - by 2020:

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/trams-planned-for-leith-by-2020-1-3353894

[Generic Username]

The more time I spend sat in a bus for 40 minutes waiting to get out of The Gyle on a week night, the more I think the trams will be great.

[Boris]

Don't forget the money wasted on the CERT (City of Edinburgh Rapid Transport) project in the 1990s that encourage many firms to locate at the Gyle but came to nothing.

 

But now there is a tram, so better late than never!

[pablo]

The more time I spend sat in a bus for 40 minutes waiting to get out of The Gyle on a week night, the more I think the trams will be great.

 

I've heard that new homes are to be built in the area, so it's only going to get worse. The old St Auggies playing field and the gap site on South Gyle Broadway are the two sites I was told.

[Generic Username]

I've heard that new homes are to be built in the area, so it's only going to get worse. The old St Auggies playing field and the gap site on South Gyle Broadway are the two sites I was told.

 

That whole bit of road round from the NHS/Tesco Bank round one way to RBS and the other side passing Heineken, is a total shitemare from 5pm at night.

 

It takes half an hour to get from Fountain Park to my stop out that way in the morning. Takes anywhere from 25 minutes to an hour just to get to the high school. It's a total shambles. Jumping on a tram will be like a breath of fresh air.

[Adam Murray]

Speaking to an inspector on the buses and he said that the trams are basically going to be free travel for any Tom, Dick or Jakey who want to travel one or two stops. Lothian Buses inspectors are being drafted in for the first few months of the trams, and the only powers they have for people not paying a fare is to put them off at the next stop or fine them ?10 lol.

[jamborich]

Belter

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/spanish-made-trams-ticket-machines-only-take-euros-1-3360017

[Horatio Caine]

Belter

 

http://www.edinburgh...euros-1-3360017

 

Bear in mind the fact that this is 1st April!

[jamborich]

Bear in mind the fact that this is 1st April!

 

Ah good point

[Jammy T]

EARL was a far superior project.

 

Rail links from the Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen spurring off to the airport. Was a truely national project - yes Edinburgh would have benefitted the most, but people outwith would have benefitted too

 

Strange that the Scottish NATIONAL Party vetoed that one.

 

I recall at the time one of the main reasons the project was ditched was because Salmond thought that tunnelling under the airport/runway was too high risk and bonkers. Clearly doesnt have a very high regard for the proud Scottish tradition of engineering.

 

What a muppet.

[Armageddon]

Eh naw, I just really hate the fecking trams. ?1.2billion for a single line that is more expensive, slower and more polluting than the service we have already.

 

But it wont pollute our city as much as the buses currently do. Although, there must be an electric bus option by now ...

[scott_jambo]

But it wont pollute our city as much as the buses currently do. Although, there must be an electric bus option by now ...

 

There are still buses

[Poseidon]

What was going to be done about the congestion between Haymarket and Waverley under the EARL scheme? From memory this was another bit of a sticking point but all in it was definitely a much better plan than the trams

[topcat]

EARL was a far superior project.

 

Rail links from the Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen spurring off to the airport. Was a truely national project - yes Edinburgh would have benefitted the most, but people outwith would have benefitted too

 

Strange that the Scottish NATIONAL Party vetoed that one.

 

I recall at the time one of the main reasons the project was ditched was because Salmond thought that tunnelling under the airport/runway was too high risk and bonkers. Clearly doesnt have a very high regard for the proud Scottish tradition of engineering.

 

What a muppet.

 

 

One big reason was the impact that turning EDI into a proper hub would have on Glasgow Airport and the political ramifications that would bring

[FWJ]

 

 

 

 

One big reason was the impact that turning EDI into a proper hub would have on Glasgow Airport and the political ramifications that would bring

This. Politically unacceptable especially when the SNP were/are trying to break into West of Scotland.

[Fermi]

 

I recall at the time one of the main reasons the project was ditched was because Salmond thought that tunnelling under the airport/runway was too high risk and bonkers. Clearly doesnt have a very high regard for the proud Scottish tradition of engineering.

 

 

Without googling or checking, 'cos that's the way I roll, I seem to recall it was the Finanshul Sectur powerhouses E&Y that came up with that particular nugget.

 

Muppets.

 

EARL was a tremendous idea. Doomed by the history-of-art-graduate analysis described above and a few minutes extra on journey times to the weedge.

 

Still. At least the A9 got duelled... Oh, wait...

[Seymour M Hersh]

?1.2billion now, is it? When did that happen?

 

Actually Experian have costed the whole thing at ?1.6bn

[Seymour M Hersh]

That whole bit of road round from the NHS/Tesco Bank round one way to RBS and the other side passing Heineken, is a total shitemare from 5pm at night.

 

It takes half an hour to get from Fountain Park to my stop out that way in the morning. Takes anywhere from 25 minutes to an hour just to get to the high school. It's a total shambles. Jumping on a tram will be like a breath of fresh air.

 

I suppose it depends where you work in EP If you are close by EP railway station then it's a doodle for the tram but if not who wants a 20 minute walk in the pushing rain to the railway station or the Government offices on Broomhouse Drive.

[pablo]

I suppose it depends where you work in EP If you are close by EP railway station then it's a doodle for the tram but if not who wants a 20 minute walk in the pushing rain to the railway station or the Government offices on Broomhouse Drive.

 

There's 4 stops in the Gyle area. The Gyle centre, Edinburgh Park, Hermiston Gate and Bankhead opposite Makro.