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Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues


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not sure but they are working really hard to get it open ... should be soon going by how quickly they managed Haymarket etc

 

:cornette: Are you being sarcastic?

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Optimus Prime

I'm starting to think that Coco is an Evening News journo. Their desperation to spin as much negativity as possible regarding the trams seems to be interlinked.

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Princes Street closed westbound between Fredrick Street and Castle Street today for a couple of hours just after midday, with buses diverted along George Street. What will happen with the poor punter who has boarded a tram at York Place to catch his flight in a couple of hours time at the airport when this kind of thing happens? What was the projected accident figures, an extra seven accidents per week per mile of tram track or something (unsure)?

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Shanks said no

Shandwick Place between the church/coffee shop and Santander was almost completely clear of their crap at lunchtime today, all fencing was away and a bloke was power washing the road. You could walk down the middle of the street, weird after so long. Coates/Atholl Crescent look nowhere near being finished and I thought they were meant to open that stretch on the 19th. As for working hard, it was raining and the poor workmen were having to shelter under the Grosvenors canopy. The pavement outside the Rutland is an absolute disgrace.

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I saw one yesterday! It moved from Edinburgh Park back over the elevated track towards the depot and to be fair, it looked good, very modern. People stopped and stared at it!

 

Now it's pretty much here I hope they start to expand it. Or at least take it to Leith.

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Hope some of the businesses start to pick up more trade along shandwick place now, I'm thinking about the Indian kasturi especially, went in there a couple of times on a Saturday night and the place was dead but the food was really good

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Optimus Prime

I saw one yesterday! It moved from Edinburgh Park back over the elevated track towards the depot and to be fair, it looked good, very modern. People stopped and stared at it!

 

Now it's pretty much here I hope they start to expand it. Or at least take it to Leith.

 

Build it and people will come.

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Is there seriously any dispute that this is the worst public procurement in Scottish history, and probably the biggest misuse of money since Darian?

 

The outline concept of a multi line tram system at the original price was a borderline decent proposal. The implementation has made the building of the Parliament look like a great success story.

 

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I think we'll eventually end up with a proper network over time ( a long time ). Imagine what the Bridge's would be like putting a line out to the ERI, given the state of the city centre/west end :o

 

Leith first obviously.

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jamboinglasgow

Is there seriously any dispute that this is the worst public procurement in Scottish history, and probably the biggest misuse of money since Darian?

 

The outline concept of a multi line tram system at the original price was a borderline decent proposal. The implementation has made the building of the Parliament look like a great success story.

 

Really, you could argue to build the project to its orginal proposal would cost double the price of the estimate. How is that worse then a building project that went 10x over budget?

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Really, you could argue to build the project to its orginal proposal would cost double the price of the estimate. How is that worse then a building project that went 10x over budget?

Because the original budget was around 10 times what the Parliament's was. The Parliament also had absolutely huge changes to scope in the wake of 9/11 which added significantly to cost.

 

The original budget for the trams was 350m. That's trebled and produced a result around 25% less distance than was proposed.

 

The Scottish Parliament also didn't ruin local businesses and disrupt everyone in Edinburgh for 6 years.

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Because the original budget was around 10 times what the Parliament's was. The Parliament also had absolutely huge changes to scope in the wake of 9/11 which added significantly to cost.

 

The original budget for the trams was 350m. That's trebled and produced a result around 25% less distance than was proposed.

 

The Scottish Parliament also didn't ruin local businesses and disrupt everyone in Edinburgh for 6 years.

 

The architect died in 2000 as well. Couldn't have helped much..

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Original network plan, budgeted at ?350million and to be operational by 2006.

Edinburgh_Trams_line_3_zps019b4d5e.png

 

Final line, estimated cost ?1.2billion, as yet not operational in 2013.

Edinburgh_Trams_line_2final_zps4bda334a.jpg

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Optimus Prime

Someone will get mowed down by one of these within a fortnight of them going "live".

 

Someone will get hit by a bus within the next fortnight.

Edited by Optimus Prime
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Cade, that is all that needs said. Criminal.

 

But JiG really likes trams so surely it's all OK?

 

658753-boy-looking-at-model-tram-02.jpeg

Edited by scott_jambo
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Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC

 

Original network plan, budgeted at ?350million and to be operational by 2006.

Edinburgh_Trams_line_3_zps019b4d5e.png

 

Final line, estimated cost ?1.2billion, as yet not operational in 2013.

Edinburgh_Trams_line_2final_zps4bda334a.jpg

 

Outrageous when you see it like that.

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  • 1 month later...

Original network plan, budgeted at ?350million and to be operational by 2006.

Edinburgh_Trams_line_3_zps019b4d5e.png

 

Final line, estimated cost ?1.2billion, as yet not operational in 2013.

Edinburgh_Trams_line_2final_zps4bda334a.jpg

 

The whole debacle lies at the doors of the Council and the Scottish Government.

 

The Council were woeful in getting the contracts with the contractors set up. Naieve to how much work this would take. And didn't even consider how much it could potentially overrun by and appointed poor execs to run it. Had they been more professional and more peicemeal - build in stages like Dublin has been progressing - this would have not gotten so bad.

 

The Scottish Government, especially the incumbents, were slow to come to the project's rescue. This exacerbated the disputes between TiE and it's contractors, TiE and the Council and Council and Government. The Government initially refused to help complete Lines 1 and 2 (the Gyle to Leith). Then had to come in when the Council wanted to stope it in Haymarket. When they did come in they managed to help make it run better and ran a leaner ship. Had they came in earlier than they did, when help was first called for by the Lib-SNP administration, then this would have been mitigated some what.

 

The latter's culpability has led them to shy away from a full investigation into the Council's running and the whole project.

 

As it is such a system in Edinburgh is still a decent idea. It connects areas of high employment and industry with those of lesser wealth. By conneting such areas you can help spread wealth. By linking areas with good public transport and regularly running transport you make them more desirable places to live for more affluent people. It brings investment to these areas and brings jobs too. It's all good in theory, and still needed imo as some bus routes are still underserving some places. But it all went tits up. Next 30 years should see this built up in stages. Hopefully down to Leith and into Southside.

Edited by JamboX2
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Seymour M Hersh

The whole debacle lies at the doors of the Council and the Scottish Government.

 

The Council were woeful in getting the contracts with the contractors set up. Naieve to how much work this would take. And didn't even consider how much it could potentially overrun by and appointed poor execs to run it. Had they been more professional and more peicemeal - build in stages like Dublin has been progressing - this would have not gotten so bad.

 

The Scottish Government, especially the incumbents, were slow to come to the project's rescue. This exacerbated the disputes between TiE and it's contractors, TiE and the Council and Council and Government. The Government initially refused to help complete Lines 1 and 2 (the Gyle to Leith). Then had to come in when the Council wanted to stope it in Haymarket. When they did come in they managed to help make it run better and ran a leaner ship. Had they came in earlier than they did, when help was first called for by the Lib-SNP administration, then this would have been mitigated some what.

 

The latter's culpability has led them to shy away from a full investigation into the Council's running and the whole project.

 

As it is such a system in Edinburgh is still a decent idea. It connects areas of high employment and industry with those of lesser wealth. By conneting such areas you can help spread wealth. By linking areas with good public transport and regularly running transport you make them more desirable places to live for more affluent people. It brings investment to these areas and brings jobs too. It's all good in theory, and still needed imo as some bus routes are still underserving some places. But it all went tits up. Next 30 years should see this built up in stages. Hopefully down to Leith and into Southside.

 

Is that you Jenny (Dawe)? Your last paragraph reads like the pish the brochure said when they were trying to justify this (herd of) white elephants.

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Is that you Jenny (Dawe)? Your last paragraph reads like the pish the brochure said when they were trying to justify this (herd of) white elephants.

 

Haha no. It is proven though from the Dublin, Manchester, Sheffield and Croyden trams that over times these things bring benefits - wealth and job redistribution. Infrastructure is key to moving wealth around the nation. Locally this would've been good. They overstepped the mark in the Council. Ran before walking. The government gave too little help in all ways. And now we have a model railway in the area which has high frequency busses at all times. A better initial route may have been a better idea. Or starting at Leith and the Airport to fill that whole route.

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Seymour M Hersh

Haha no. It is proven though from the Dublin, Manchester, Sheffield and Croyden trams that over times these things bring benefits - wealth and job redistribution. Infrastructure is key to moving wealth around the nation. Locally this would've been good. They overstepped the mark in the Council. Ran before walking. The government gave too little help in all ways. And now we have a model railway in the area which has high frequency busses at all times. A better initial route may have been a better idea. Or starting at Leith and the Airport to fill that whole route.

 

Are you aware that a credit agency has done a costing of this shambles and come up with a total of ?1.6bn? Allegedly there is a fair amount of tram expenditure (hidden) in other council budgets to give the impression the overspend is not as astronomical as it really is.

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Toxteth O'Grady

 

As it is such a system in Edinburgh is still a decent idea. It connects areas of high employment and industry with those of lesser wealth. By conneting such areas you can help spread wealth. By linking areas with good public transport and regularly running transport you make them more desirable places to live for more affluent people. It brings investment to these areas and brings jobs too. It's all good in theory, and still needed imo as some bus routes are still underserving some places. But it all went tits up. Next 30 years should see this built up in stages. Hopefully down to Leith and into Southside.

 

Utter rubbish.

 

It does nothing that buses cant do. In fact it is much less flexible. What happens if a line is blocked? They cant divert.

 

It has cost the City a fortune and will continue to do so until it is scrapped. It will run at a loss and bus fares will rise to subsidise it.

 

I'd be utterly amazed if it ever goes as far as Leith.

 

 

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The Real Maroonblood

 

 

 

 

Utter rubbish.

 

It does nothing that buses cant do. In fact it is much less flexible. What happens if a line is blocked? They cant divert.

 

It has cost the City a fortune and will continue to do so until it is scrapped. It will run at a loss and bus fares will rise to subsidise it.

 

I'd be utterly amazed if it ever goes as far as Leith.

It will probably take about 500 years for this debacle to break even.

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Utter rubbish.

 

It does nothing that buses cant do. In fact it is much less flexible. What happens if a line is blocked? They cant divert.

 

It has cost the City a fortune and will continue to do so until it is scrapped. It will run at a loss and bus fares will rise to subsidise it.

 

I'd be utterly amazed if it ever goes as far as Leith.

 

If it doesn't ever get completed over the next 30 year period it'll be a moving disgrace and not re-engineered into an opportunity. I'm not belittling the disgraceful management, planning and operation of all this. But to let this remain what it is would be as damming for Edinburgh as the council and government's handling of all this has been.

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I'd like to see it expanded now as quickly as possible. Definitely to Leith first. That's the hardest part almost done and hopefully lessons have been learned, but the City should act quickly.

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Toxteth O'Grady

 

 

 

If it doesn't ever get completed over the next 30 year period it'll be a moving disgrace and not re-engineered into an opportunity. I'm not belittling the disgraceful management, planning and operation of all this. But to let this remain what it is would be as damming for Edinburgh as the council and government's handling of all this has been.

 

To do any more with it would be throwing good money after bad.

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To do any more with it would be throwing good money after bad.

 

Not necessarily. It just needs planned and managed better and there's ways to raise money for expansion.

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Toxteth O'Grady

 

 

 

Not necessarily. It just needs planned and managed better and there's ways to raise money for expansion.

 

The tram lines were ripped up in Edinburgh 50 odd years ago because trams are an inflexible outdated mode of transport. Nothing has changed.

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To do any more with it would be throwing good money after bad.

 

The issue here is poor management of budgets and naievity in contracting the project - all those terms in contracts that allowed the contractors away with murder was bloody negligence on whoever drew that contract up.

 

Edinburgh has a terrible council. The folk who wanted to build the hydro offered Edinburgh it first, same financing of it etc. Wanted to build it in Leith at the front. We rejected it. We lack anything like that in Edinburgh. They make woeful strategic decisions. Not just in transport, but everywhere. The issue is the deadwood council we have.

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The tram lines were ripped up in Edinburgh 50 odd years ago because trams are an inflexible outdated mode of transport. Nothing has changed.

 

But they work elsewhere. I wouldn't suggest recreating the network of 50 years ago. It's not the same thing at all.

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The tram lines were ripped up in Edinburgh 50 odd years ago because trams are an inflexible outdated mode of transport. Nothing has changed.

Why are they being re-laid and proving very popular all round the UK and Europe?

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The tram lines were ripped up in Edinburgh 50 odd years ago because trams are an inflexible outdated mode of transport. Nothing has changed.

 

Mainly it was because petrol was cheaper. Cheap fuel fueled the post-war boom to the oil crisis of the 1970s. That wont be the case in the coming years. If it was inflexibility many major European cities wouldn't have retained tram networks and light rail. It was economic sense then to move to busses. Now it's moving the other way.

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Alba gu Brath

Agree, almost all major European cities have trams with some having metro systems as well.

 

It's the way forward - better public transport and more bicycles.

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Taking it down Leith Walk should be relatively straightforward, no? Planning permission paid for, utility diversion work done and even the trams have been bought. No bridges to be built etc. Just the track, stops and overhead power to go down.

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dobmisterdobster

Utter rubbish.

 

It does nothing that buses cant do. In fact it is much less flexible. What happens if a line is blocked? They cant divert.

 

It has cost the City a fortune and will continue to do so until it is scrapped. It will run at a loss and bus fares will rise to subsidise it.

 

I'd be utterly amazed if it ever goes as far as Leith.

 

Won't happen for two reasons.

 

1. Scotrail and the Glasgow Subway both have operating losses and they are still around. Only two rail companies in the UK break even. The rest live off government subsidy.

2. It serves it's purpose as an Airport rail link.

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We got played like a bunch of chumps. Some really rich people somewhere won't have to work another day in their lifes because we totally totally messed it up.

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The Mighty Thor

Like I've said before. You could ferry every #### that wants to use it by hand in a gold plated sedan chair from the airport to st Andrews square and still have change.

Edited by The Mighty Thor
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Taking it down Leith Walk should be relatively straightforward, no? Planning permission paid for, utility diversion work done and even the trams have been bought. No bridges to be built etc. Just the track, stops and overhead power to go down.

 

Was all that work completed before the Leith bit was scrapped, or was it completed in the same state that the Princes St work was done, and needed redone after several weeks of the road being used again?

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Was all that work completed before the Leith bit was scrapped, or was it completed in the same state that the Princes St work was done, and needed redone after several weeks of the road being used again?

 

The work down Leith was the moving of the pipes under the road.

 

No idea if they did it all the way down to Newhaven but it's unrelated to the concrete issues they had when laying the tracks.

 

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The work down Leith was the moving of the pipes under the road.

 

No idea if they did it all the way down to Newhaven but it's unrelated to the concrete issues they had when laying the tracks.

They only did it to the bottom of constitution st.

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