Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[Prince Buaben]

They only did it to the bottom of constitution st.

 

They had started doing stuff to the road and pipes on the road between Ocean Terminal and Asda Newhaven.

[FWJ]

How much would it have cost and how much disruption would it have caused when the utilities were replaced anyway, without the trams?

[Alba gu Brath]

How much would it have cost and how much disruption would it have caused when the utilities were replaced anyway, without the trams?

 

Archaeology played a part as well. According to a pal who works in the Coonsull, they 'forgot' to factor in Edinburgh's considerable underground history when the project was first drawn up by the then Labour administration. Most major projects such as this employ an archaeologist to deal with anything that arises during digging.

 

Apparently, whenever the tram works hit something of potential interest, the work stopped while the Coonsull debated with other agencies as to what they should do and who was responsible for the delay. Numpties.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Alba gu Brath

[Coco]

When is the public inquiry going to be called?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14691885

[Hugh Phamism]

When the people of Edinburgh start to realise that the trams are primarily for the visitors to Edinburgh then they will begin to accept that it was a necessary evil.

 

The bus service will continue to be used by locals, but any national capital with aspirations as a major tourist attraction needed something better than a good bus service.

[pablo]

When the people of Edinburgh start to realise that the trams are primarily for the visitors to Edinburgh then they will begin to accept that it was a necessary evil.

 

The bus service will continue to be used by locals, but any national capital with aspirations as a major tourist attraction needed something better than a good bus service.

 

I'm not sure, I'd keep going to Leith and then start on the North-South line in stages and these extentions wouldn't be for tourists. There was a time I'd have scrapped them, but now the depot and the control centre have been finished, I support as rapid an expansion as possible. I think the difficult part and been done and now we're through the city centre let's grow it in to a proper network over time.

[Hugh Phamism]

I'm not sure, I'd keep going to Leith and then start on the North-South line in stages and these extentions wouldn't be for tourists. There was a time I'd have scrapped them, but now the depot and the control centre have been finished, I support as rapid an expansion as possible. I think the difficult part and been done and now we're through the city centre let's grow it in to a proper network over time.

 

I agree. However, the existing line needs to prove its worth in the first case. If revenues and reliability are as expected in the first 2 years then network expansion should be on the agenda. The key to a successful transport infrastructure is partnerships and synergy rather than competition and duplication.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I'm not sure, I'd keep going to Leith and then start on the North-South line in stages and these extentions wouldn't be for tourists. There was a time I'd have scrapped them, but now the depot and the control centre have been finished, I support as rapid an expansion as possible. I think the difficult part and been done and now we're through the city centre let's grow it in to a proper network over time.

 

The bottom line is that people need to be named and shamed over this shambles. Completely unacceptable that a project using public money can be as out of control as this has been.

[IronJambo]

Should've built a monorail. It would've been much better.

[N User]

Over a billion spent is not a necessary evil.

[pablo]

 

 

The bottom line is that people need to be named and shamed over this shambles. Completely unacceptable that a project using public money can be as out of control as this has been.

 

Agreed. But I wouldn't use that a reason to stop now. The future development of the line should be managed and funded differently.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

When is the public inquiry going to be called?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14691885

They will probably wait until alt those who took backhanders have passed away.

[Hugh Phamism]

Over a billion spent is not a necessary evil.

 

Can't disagree with you on that score, but the original concept was sound. It was just very poorly implemented and managed, and yes, people should be named, shamed and prosecuted, if appropriate.

 

I stick by my statement that any city worthy of the status of an international tourist destination needs a better transport network than good buses -especially to/from the airport.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JamboX2]

When is the public inquiry going to be called?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14691885

 

Its almost as if the incumbent SNP Scottish Government is embarrassed and concerned at the way it and the SNP in Council at Edinburgh conducted themselves throughout this... Too little too late springs to mind. Everyone here has done wrong but the politiking and hanging it out to dry was pretty shameful. Reckon that has it all to do with.

 

The naming and shaming this would give is certainly needed.

 

 

[Nookie Bear]

When the people of Edinburgh start to realise that the trams are primarily for the visitors to Edinburgh then they will begin to accept that it was a necessary evil.

 

The bus service will continue to be used by locals, but any national capital with aspirations as a major tourist attraction needed something better than a good bus service.

 

In what way, exactly?

 

I can understand why an underground system is attractive, but not an alternative form of 'overground' transport.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

Can't disagree with you on that score, but the original concept was sound. It was just very poorly implemented and managed, and yes, people should be named, shamed and prosecuted, if appropriate.

 

I stick by my statement that any city worthy of the status of an international tourist destination needs a better transport network than good buses -especially to/from the airport.

The bus service to and from the airport is adequate enough.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pablo]

 

 

In what way, exactly?

 

I can understand why an underground system is attractive, but not an alternative form of 'overground' transport.

 

What difference does it make if it's overground? Like Schiphol to Central Station for example.

[Nookie Bear]

What difference does it make if it's overground? Like Schiphol to Central Station for example.

What difference does it make if it's overground? Like Schiphol to Central Station for example.

 

Hugh Phanism said that an international tourist destination needs a better transport system than just buses but trams are using the same roads and going at the same pace. I can see how an underground system is attractive because it's quick and better in crap weather but I don;t see the attraction in a new form of overground transportation.

 

There is an assumption re trams that if we build them, they will come. I don;t get the leap of faith, myself.

[pablo]

Hugh Phanism said that an international tourist destination needs a better transport system than just buses but trams are using the same roads and going at the same pace. I can see how an underground system is attractive because it's quick and better in crap weather but I don;t see the attraction in a new form of overground transportation.

 

There is an assumption re trams that if we build them, they will come. I don;t get the leap of faith, myself.

 

Most of the expansion to edinburgh's trams should take place on ballasted trackway, there shouldn't be too much disruption to streets now the city centre is complete. The tube isn't always quicker than overground by the way, but that's by the by. I think tourists will use the trams, but as a growing city ( manadate to build 000's of new homes by 2030 I think ) we should be thinking long term. Manchester started buliding it's network at the end of the 1980's and now has several lines and 25 million passengers per year. I believe we should be thinking about what the city will need generations from now.

[Hugh Phamism]

As a frequent traveller, I find that I often use trams in international destinations. I very rarely use a local bus.

 

My main reason for this, and maybe my logic is completely unfounded but it's my personal rule of thumb, is that trams (and track systems in general) are easier to figure out than local buses. You can look at a map and see exactly where a tram/train runs & stops. This is not always the case with local buses. Also, track transport systems tend to run on-time, as per the timetables. Buses?, not so much.

 

This may be a very simplistic view, but if you are a stranger in an unfamiliar city, it tends to be easier to use a fixed transit system rather than an untethered system such as buses. This is why I make my comments about the trams being more for visitors than for locals and once the system is up and running, the stats for the #100 Airlink bus versus tram use will be the measurement of success for Edinburgh Transport.

 

I guess that I should also point out that as I live outwith Edinburgh city, I have been less affected by the tramworks than citydwellers, and will share less of the cost burden. My seeth, therefore, is at a much lower level.

[Ron Swanson]

As a frequent traveller, I find that I often use trams in international destinations. I very rarely use a local bus.

 

My main reason for this, and maybe my logic is completely unfounded but it's my personal rule of thumb, is that trams (and track systems in general) are easier to figure out than local buses. You can look at a map and see exactly where a tram/train runs & stops. This is not always the case with local buses. Also, track transport systems tend to run on-time, as per the timetables. Buses?, not so much.

 

This may be a very simplistic view, but if you are a stranger in an unfamiliar city, it tends to be easier to use a fixed transit system rather than an untethered system such as buses. This is why I make my comments about the trams being more for visitors than for locals and once the system is up and running, the stats for the #100 Airlink bus versus tram use will be the measurement of success for Edinburgh Transport.

 

I guess that I should also point out that as I live outwith Edinburgh city, I have been less affected by the tramworks than citydwellers, and will share less of the cost burden. My seeth, therefore, is at a much lower level.

I agree with you but this is only really great when there are multiple tram lines/destinations etc. Not so much when it is simply a link to the airport.

[Ribble]

The bottom line is that people need to be named and shamed over this shambles. Completely unacceptable that a project using public money can be as out of control as this has been.

 

To be fair you can look all around the world at examples of major infrastructure/building projects and invariably the time and costs will be vastly underestimated!

 

Suez Canal - cost 20 times the original projections, even the costings 1 year before construction started miscalculated by a figure of 3

Sydney Opera House - cost 15 times the original budget

Channel Tunnel - had an overrun of around 80% on construction costs

 

So the point I am trying to make is that a public enquiry will only find that ECC are generally as unequipped in being able to plan, specify and manage a large construction project as almost any other Local Authority or Government!

 

As much as I hate to say it but it may well be time for the Government to set up a quango to provide specialist project management of all large scale (?100m+) public sector construction!

[Coco]

To be fair you can look all around the world at examples of major infrastructure/building projects and invariably the time and costs will be vastly underestimated!

 

Suez Canal - cost 20 times the original projections, even the costings 1 year before construction started miscalculated by a figure of 3

Sydney Opera House - cost 15 times the original budget

Channel Tunnel - had an overrun of around 80% on construction costs

 

So the point I am trying to make is that a public enquiry will only find that ECC are generally as unequipped in being able to plan, specify and manage a large construction project as almost any other Local Authority or Government!

 

As much as I hate to say it but it may well be time for the Government to set up a quango to provide specialist project management of all large scale (?100m+) public sector construction!

 

The public inquiry will investigate why Transport Scotland - the Government Agency - dished out ?500m of public money to a scheme which was not hitting the milestones that were required for that money to be dished out.

[FWJ]

Isn't there evidence that people are (much) more likely to leave their car for a tram rather than a bus?

[FORTHCLYDE]

I'm sure there was only one SNP councillor when the trams were passed and he voted against.

Edited December 19, 2013 by FORTHCLYDE

[Pans Jambo]

I agree with you but this is only really great when there are multiple tram lines/destinations etc. Not so much when it is simply a link to the airport.

I also live outside the city but to be fair, the tram will link the Airport, Haymarket Station, Waverley Station (or very close to) & St Andrews Square for the buses to the east & south of the city. Good for links from all the trains coming into the city and reasonable for the bus links too.

Not perfect I know but its here now (almost) so what can you do? I think the tourists and folks flying into the Airport will love it.

I appreciate that I have not had to live through years of road works etc but then I live a better quality of life that you townies so get it right up yeez!

[Seymour M Hersh]

Can't disagree with you on that score, but the original concept was sound. It was just very poorly implemented and managed, and yes, people should be named, shamed and prosecuted, if appropriate.

 

I stick by my statement that any city worthy of the status of an international tourist destination needs a better transport network than good buses -especially to/from the airport.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

What would have been wrong with simply running a spur in from the east coast line (at the bottom of the runway after all) and one from the west coast line building a station within the terminal (as they seem to have in so many European cities) and hey presto! Edinburgh becomes the most accessible airport in Scotland. Plus you ge your link to and from the airport from the city centre.

[JamboX2]

What would have been wrong with simply running a spur in from the east coast line (at the bottom of the runway after all) and one from the west coast line building a station within the terminal (as they seem to have in so many European cities) and hey presto! Edinburgh becomes the most accessible airport in Scotland. Plus you ge your link to and from the airport from the city centre.

 

Both EARL (Edinburgh Airport Rail Link) and GARL (it's Glasgow equivalent) and the Trams were opposed by the SNP. Preliminary work on the former was done when the government's changed in 2007 and it was cancelled. You are right it makes sense. But arguably both are good. One provides light rail in from town, the other rail links the airport to Fife, the north east and beyond. Both good ideas. Both cancelled in the early days of SNP government. Not their fault, it was their belief they weren't needed. But to me it strikes me as short sited.

[IronJambo]

 

 

Both EARL (Edinburgh Airport Rail Link) and GARL (it's Glasgow equivalent) and the Trams were opposed by the SNP. Preliminary work on the former was done when the government's changed in 2007 and it was cancelled. You are right it makes sense. But arguably both are good. One provides light rail in from town, the other rail links the airport to Fife, the north east and beyond. Both good ideas. Both cancelled in the early days of SNP government. Not their fault, it was their belief they weren't needed. But to me it strikes me as short sited.

 

It was certainly short sighted. As a regular traveller to and from Edinburgh airport from 2006-2007 I'd have loved a rail link. To me, pulling the plug on that was a huge failure.

[Fermi]

I'm not a person that pays much attention to politics, but it's clear that there is some serious mismanagement at the heart of this project. It is critically important that there are documented investigations into those who rubber-stamped it and those in charge, both nationally and locally, since its date of inception.

 

I would expect that, in an educated society, neither would ever be elected again. Such incompetence cannot be tolerated.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

 

To be fair you can look all around the world at examples of major infrastructure/building projects and invariably the time and costs will be vastly underestimated!

 

Suez Canal - cost 20 times the original projections, even the costings 1 year before construction started miscalculated by a figure of 3

Sydney Opera House - cost 15 times the original budget

Channel Tunnel - had an overrun of around 80% on construction costs

 

So the point I am trying to make is that a public enquiry will only find that ECC are generally as unequipped in being able to plan, specify and manage a large construction project as almost any other Local Authority or Government!

 

As much as I hate to say it but it may well be time for the Government to set up a quango to provide specialist project management of all large scale (?100m+) public sector construction!

 

I can't accept any of that

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Can't wait to get on one of these bad-boys.

 

I'm gonna alight with a skip and a jump... And a possible fist pump.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

What would have been wrong with simply running a spur in from the east coast line (at the bottom of the runway after all) and one from the west coast line building a station within the terminal (as they seem to have in so many European cities) and hey presto! Edinburgh becomes the most accessible airport in Scotland. Plus you ge your link to and from the airport from the city centre.

That would have been to sensible and probably a lot cheaper and less back handlers paid out.

[Poseidon]

Was the lack of space at Haymarket (and the tunnels to Waverley) not a major stumbling block for the proposed rail link to the airport?

[topcat]

Was the lack of space at Haymarket (and the tunnels to Waverley) not a major stumbling block for the proposed rail link to the airport?

 

It depends on how many extra services an hour you wished to run through the tunnel but to have more than a token service would start impacting other services.

 

The most obvious thing to do would be to reroute the Queen Street service to go through a new station at the airport but that would be politically dangerous given its impact on Glasgow Airport.

[graygo]

Nice to know that they are spunking another ?2million so that the public can access the internet on the buses and trams in Lothian

[Shanks said no]

Haymarket Station also has (still?) the little used platform 0 which terminates at Haymarket.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Leith possibly going to get the trams.

My sides are splitting.

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

Leith possibly going to get the trams.

My sides are splitting.

Leith has been punished enough by its nearest fitba club surely.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

Leith has been punished enough by its nearest fitba club surely.

True.

[Cade]

Lots of firms to claw back money they gave to the council to help building the trams because the line got cut in half. Millions of quid is going to be handed out. What a total disgrace this project has been since the very first day

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

Lots of firms to claw back money they gave to the council to help building the trams because the line got cut in half. Millions of quid is going to be handed out. What a total disgrace this project has been since the very first day

It will never pay for itself.

[Dunks]

Nice to know that they are spunking another ?2million so that the public can access the internet on the buses and trams in Lothian

 

Different funding streams and much of it from UK Government (telecoms being a reserved matter).

[graygo]

Different funding streams and much of it from UK Government (telecoms being a reserved matter).

 

Can a man not have a seethe about anything these days without some ne'er-do-well spoiling it with reasoned counter claims?

[Generic Username]

Yesterday I got caught in traffic out at the gyle after work and it took me an hour and 45 minutes to get home when it should have taken about 20. It's the first time I've thought "they trams are a good idea" - I could have jumped on one and been home in 10 minutes!

[Ribble]

Different funding streams and much of it from UK Government (telecoms being a reserved matter).

 

Regardless of the source of funding, isn't it a waste with Edinburgh being one of the cities going for city wide free wifi??

[Chester™]

Regardless of the source of funding, isn't it a waste with Edinburgh being one of the cities going for city wide free wifi??

 

Its city centre only is it not?

[Ribble]

Its city centre only is it not?

 

May be wrong but thought it was more than that tbh!

[Armageddon]

Ok i'll buck the trend on this thread.

 

I see the environmental/sustainable point of the trams and that's the whole reason for them. I'm looking forward to it, yes it's been a hassle, but you can't have the flooring replaced in your house without a huge hassle and that always costs more than you would expect.

 

I'm not pandering to the Evening News hysteria "Man walks in front of trams" - "Tram cant move as car parks in front of it - We told you so"

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

but you can't have the flooring replaced in your house without a huge hassle and that always costs more than you would expect.

 

That would be a valid point were you not overlooking the astonishing levels of incompetence and self-interest that have raised the price.