Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Boris]

Remember though - that not all of the 2m No voters were voting for more powers, a majority were voting for exactly what the question asked.

 

So you're being slightly disingenuous with your statement.

 

It could be argued that as soon as the UK party leaders made their vow, that's exactly what voting no was for!

[Beni]

 

 

It was the other way. Westminster wanted just Yes and No

 

I'm not disagreeing about that, but I don't think SNP wanted a straight three way vote. I suspect mainly cos devo max would have skooshed it, thereby kicking the possibility of independence another 20 years down the road.

[south morroccan]

 

Does this mean we can bin the Flower of Scotland as the national anthem ?

 

Seriously though, the focus is on Darling now, to work alongside the SNP, and make sure that Cameron pledges are delivered. This isn't a situation that he can back down from, so he must deliver them - failure to do so, WILL unite Scotland, and WILL result in independence further down the line...

 

Even the Yes campaign can see the benefits of this ?

 

Don't even suggest that! They'll probably want Sunshine on Leith now.

[Sydney]

Sydney: but any individual has almost zero power in a country, one vote among millions, with almost no "autonomy" unless many others agree. There will be lots of disappointed people.

 

But an individual can gain directly from intellectually and materially health circumstances even if nobody agrees.

 

Agreed on the first sentence. Don't understand what the second sentence means. Is it cryptic?

[loveofthegame]

Delighted with the outcome and delighted we can move on without fear over our short-mid term futures.

[Gabriel]

Interesting times ahead. With a reduced budget coming its way and a need to ensure that powers in Scotland do not become even more concentrated in Edinburgh, the Scottish Government faces a tough challenge domestically, especially with the electorate apparently invigorated and geographical divisions evident.

[Hasselhoff]

Part of me is sad we'll never know what would have happened with the Currency Union idea and who would have won the ?100 JKB bet on it

[Simo]

Was the result I was expecting tbh (even predicted 55-45. WTF didn't I bet on it...) but still gutted. Feels like an opportunity wasted to me.

[fabienleclerq]

So a 6% swing would've won it? Pretty close in the end, I still think we will see another referendum in the next ten years if the main parties don't deliver.

[Homme]

I predicted the turnout at least!

[The Merse]

It could be argued that as soon as the UK party leaders made their vow, that's exactly what voting no was for!

 

Not really.

 

I'd imagine most other no voters like myself had made there mind up way before that was declared.

[deesidejambo]

Was the result I was expecting tbh (even predicted 55-45. WTF didn't I bet on it...) but still gutted. Feels like an opportunity wasted to me.

 

It indeed was a wasted opportunity.

 

But Yes wasted it. Next time Eck should less it with the "Team Scotland" divisive campaigning tactics. And Nicola can back of fon the "We Hate Tory Toffs" approach, which just showed up her real bigotry.

 

Also I expect Labour will be kicked into winning back seats in Scotland, so the next General election could see the SNP booted if Labour get their act together.

[deesidejambo]

Not really.

 

I'd imagine most other no voters like myself had made there mind up way before that was declared.

 

Correct.. The reason for the 55/45 was something that is rather obvious - the "Shy Nos" that gradually increased due to fear of intimidation, and the fact that most of the "Undecideds" in Polls were not "Undecided" at all. Quebec repeats itself. And it will happen again next time.

[micole]

It indeed was a wasted opportunity.

 

But Yes wasted it. Next time Eck should less it with the "Team Scotland" divisive campaigning tactics. And Nicola can back of fon the "We Hate Tory Toffs" approach, which just showed up her real bigotry.

 

Also I expect Labour will be kicked into winning back seats in Scotland, so the next General election could see the SNP booted if Labour get their act together.

Yup and then we will get Johan Lamont, now there is something to look forward to.

[Shanks said no]

I'm sad today with the realisation that I don't think I will ever see Scotland as an independant nation. I will never know that joy, I will probably always be British. There was a moment last night when I forgot about the demographics of the vote and the numbers narrowed to 49.1% Yes, 50.9% No, that a shiver ran down my spine.

 

Given the margin of the final victory I do wonder if the 3 amigos really had to make their vow?

 

Next 8 months may be interesting times.

[pablo]

 

 

Not really.

 

I'd imagine most other no voters like myself had made there mind up way before that was declared.

 

I'd imagine all those claiming to have supported Devo Max, but were left with no option other than backing Yes, switched sides after the vow of additional powers was made? After all. ...........

[The Treasurer]

Does this mean we can bin the Flower of Scotland as the national anthem ?

 

"We can still rise up and be a nation again"

 

Bit two faced if they keep using an "anthem" with that line in it

[deesidejambo]

Yup and then we will get Johan Lamont, now there is something to look forward to.

 

but dont forget Tommy Sheridan! What a ridiculous rant last night.

[Boris]

Not really.

 

I'd imagine most other no voters like myself had made there mind up way before that was declared.

 

Indeed, but Westminster still added it to the campaign so, as Pablo says...

I'd imagine all those claiming to have supported Devo Max, but were left with no option other than backing Yes, switched sides after the vow of additional powers was made? After all. ...........

 

This may well have happened. Had it been on the ballot in the first place it would have been resounding (65-70% IMO).

 

But not all initial devo-max types went to YES and then to NO on Cameron's magic beans.

[deesidejambo]

"We can still rise up and be a nation again"

 

Bit two faced if they keep using an "anthem" with that line in it

 

I hope we can bin it. Its a whiney song.. Go with "Scotland The Brave"!

[deesidejambo]

Indeed, but Westminster still added it to the campaign so, as Pablo says...

 

 

This may well have happened. Had it been on the ballot in the first place it would have been resounding (65-70% IMO).

 

But not all initial devo-max types went to YES and then to NO on Cameron's magic beans.

 

DC gave Devo-max away unecessarily. Alls well that ends well.

[Guest GhostHunter]

Latecomers to the thread this morning, are reminded that we will frown very furiously at any posts that seek to "GIRUY", or "TROLL" other members based on the result.

 

Indeed, the furious frown will make way for a spot of furious thread banning.

 

Don't say you weren't warned.

[djf]

Great night's entertainment all things considered.

 

Every significant UK party currently running to stand still and a GE in a few months. More to look forward to for the impartial.

 

The vote will be analysed to death but it seems apparent that the grassroots Yes campaign spent too much energy on convincing the disenfranchised and slapping themselves on the back whilst writing off huge chunks of the country.

 

All things considered it might turn out to be a good result for the SNP. 45% of a population not to be sniffed at and a lot of the difficult questions will now remain unanswered.

[Boaby Ewing]

I think Scotland's just voted for a reaming. Our identity has shifted.

 

No more 'parcel of rogues'. No more 'plucky underdogs'.

 

We've made our bed.

 

I don't think we'll see another indyref in my lifetime.

 

(I may reappraise this view once my hangover lifts).

[super_vlad]

So after everything else was said and done, we were messed by the over 55's! seems fair.

[deesidejambo]

Great night's entertainment all things considered.

 

Every significant UK party currently running to stand still and a GE in a few months. More to look forward to for the impartial.

 

The vote will be analysed to death but it seems apparent that the grassroots Yes campaign spent too much energy on convincing the disenfranchised and slapping themselves on the back whilst writing off huge chunks of the country.

 

All things considered it might turn out to be a good result for the SNP. 45% of a population not to be sniffed at and a lot of the difficult questions will now remain unanswered.

 

Agreed - alienating voters is not a way to win referendums. The real test of the SNP will be the next GE and Scottish elections. I'd expect Labour will come out fighting this time to get their heartlands back.

[chester copperpot]

I think Scotland's just voted for a reaming. Our identity has shifted.

 

No more 'parcel of rogues'. No more 'plucky underdogs'.

 

We've made our bed.

 

I don't think we'll see another indyref in my lifetime.

 

(I may reappraise this view once my hangover lifts).

 

 

My feeling exactly Dave, well minus the hangover.

 

I pulled an all nighter last night and was heartbroken with the result, however we need to lie in that pish stained bed of ours now!

[deesidejambo]

So after everything else was said and done, we were messed by the over 55's! seems fair.

 

Dont underestimate the value of wisdom and experience!!!!!!!

[eddiepolio]

The opportunity was there, on a plate for Eck. A simple Yes/No questtion, that he got to chose (after his original one was booted for bias) with a simple majority of those voting. The lowest possible bar to get over.

 

But he blew it big time.

 

A campaign that started off far to glib and smug, a campaign that caused division by alienating Scots with inference that if they are not in "Team Scotland" they are not true Scots, a campaign that got tripped up by not having answers ready for simple questions on currency and EU risks. A campaign that treated even reasonable discussion questions as questions as "scaremongering" A campaign that resulted in direct intimidation of voters, certainly up here in Sheepland and no doubt in other places.

 

And his coup de gras - "The Sovereign Will of The Scottish People Will Not be Denied".

 

Well on that one he was correct!

 

Outstanding! (I'm going to nick this for my Facebook)

[super_vlad]

I think Scotland's just voted for a reaming. Our identity has shifted.

 

No more 'parcel of rogues'. No more 'plucky underdogs'.

 

We've made our bed.

 

I don't think we'll see another indyref in my lifetime.

 

(I may reappraise this view once my hangover lifts).

 

We don't deserve one, and there is no need. The only way i can see the SNP or any party ever putting this back on is if there was a ref on us being pulled out the EU!

[Prince Buaben]

Has there any indication what Devo Max will look like?

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

Agreed - alienating voters is not a way to win referendums. The real test of the SNP will be the next GE and Scottish elections. I'd expect Labour will come out fighting this time to get their heartlands back.

Labour will lose a lot of voters come the GE.

[jambo1185]

I do feel huge sympathy for those who wanted independence. I know I would have been crushed if it had been a yes vote, but I am feeling hugely uplifted to have had my Scottish and British identity reaffirmed. I think as well what really hit home last night was that if it had been yes, I would have never forgiven myself for not getting out their and fighting. If I ever feel so strongly about something in future I can say with confidence that I will be out there campaigning, rather being 'silent' and letting others step up to the plate. Scotland is leading the Union forward, we are starting a new era, and we will have created it, inspired it, lead it. We have been a part of history (on both sides). What an honour to have been a part of it.

Edited September 19, 2014 by jambo1185

[micole]

 

 

but dont forget Tommy Sheridan! What a ridiculous rant last night.Aye but that Looney has NAE chance of being first minister thankfully but Lamont has .

[davieholt]

Labour will lose a lot of voters come the GE.

 

If they want to avoid that they will need to get rid of Ed. He contributed the square root of bugger all and was shown up by Brown big style.

[OmiyaHearts]

A real feeling of disappointment and resentment in Glasgow today (nothing changed there then ). I've admittedly not dealt with it well, especially the low turnout but slightly buoyed knowing we voted Yes.

 

Some heated arguments in the office already and even had someone storm out. I can completely understand people voting No but I'm not sure how this will pan out for the areas that voted Yes.

[Rudolf's Mate]

So after everything else was said and done, we were messed by the over 55's! seems fair.

 

Is that a statistical fact? Curious.

[Floyd]

See folk moaning about the Tories?

 

Why do they ignore the complete dogs dinner Blair and Brown made of things over 10 or so years?

 

Politicians are politicians are politicians whether they are from England, Scotland or Brussels.

 

I don't often agree with you fella, but that's

[super_vlad]

Has there any indication what Devo Max will look like?

 

[DETTY29]

 

 

If they want to avoid that they will need to get rid of Ed. He contributed the square root of bugger all and was shown up by Brown big style.

Well Ed signed the 3 way vow.

 

 

Labour need to get to bottom of who was driving it. One of the other parties, Darling of was it Brown?

 

I hope it was the big JGB.

 

Sort of puts pressure on English Labour. That may be no bad thing.

 

And will rank and file Labour accept another Scot as leader?

 

 

 

 

 

[jambo1185]

I'm hoping the increased devolution will see the likes of Alexander, Murphy and Brown come to Holyrood. I'm not a Labour voter but if key powers are going to be lying in our hands, these guys should be part of that process. The general standard of politician at Holyrood could do with some uplifting (although there have been a few standouts in this campaign, Douglas for Labour and Davidson for the Tories for example) and Lamont should not be anywhere near the leadership.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

I am sitting here thinking what a great thread this has been. Educational, informative, entertaining; well done kickbackers.

 

 

[rossthejambo]

Disappointed in the result, I'd be lying if I said otherwise. I just really hope we get the powers we need to make a real difference now. If we don't and get shafted then all bets are off on a new referendum in the next few years.

 

I'm all for Devomax and would have voted for that had it been an option, we should be getting that now IMO, along with everyone else in the UK. If we don't then I'll find it difficult to vote in an election in the future tbh.

 

Really disagree with the absolute helmets slating people on Facebook for the way they voted, some folk really need to get a life.

 

[super_vlad]

Is that a statistical fact? Curious.

 

Yes mate,

 

https://twitter.com/DBruntz14/status/512893011039379456/photo/1

 

I can't link the picture, but we all expected that anyway because of the polls that were being done.

[jambo1185]

Yes mate,

 

https://twitter.com/...9379456/photo/1

 

I can't link the picture, but we all expected that anyway because of the polls that were being done.

It's a poll, rather than official result data - any information about sample size? Interesting to see the 18-24 in favour of No. Those in higher education with worries about the job market? Or getting onto the property ladder for the first time?

[The Mighty Thor]

I think Scotland's just voted for a reaming. Our identity has shifted.

 

No more 'parcel of rogues'. No more 'plucky underdogs'.

 

We've made our bed.

 

I don't think we'll see another indyref in my lifetime.

 

(I may reappraise this view once my hangover lifts).

I concur. It's an opportunity missed.

 

My hope is that the people now engaged with the political process carry that through to 2015 GE and fecking decimate the labour party.

 

There can be no whinging about the outcomes and what we get rammed right up us.

 

We need a dave cameron deal with it smiley

[Floyd]

I'm hoping the increased devolution will see the likes of Alexander, Murphy and Brown come to Holyrood. I'm not a Labour voter but if key powers are going to be lying in our hands, these guys should be part of that process. The general standard of politician at Holyrood could do with some uplifting (although there have been a few standouts in this campaign, Douglas for Labour and Davidson for the Tories for example) and Lamont should not be anywhere near the leadership.

 

Totally agree with this, even as a no voter, I have to say that the only person in the yes camp who impressed me was Patrick Harvie of the Greens.

 

During the youth debate, it was only him and Ruth Davidson who came across well.

 

Sturgeon acted like a wee wumin who had been skipped in the queue for getting in to the bingo whereas Galloway sounded like your drunk uncle who turns up at a family party uninvited, sits in the corner rambles shite and everyone is afraid to say anything to him or make eye contact just incase he goes mental.

 

I think both Labour and the SNP could now do with new leaders.

[Jambo_Gaz]

Absolutely chuffed. That is all.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

If they want to avoid that they will need to get rid of Ed. He contributed the square root of bugger all and was shown up by Brown big style.

If Brown had shown as much passion in the referendum campaign when he was PM he wouldn't have been an incumbent one.

[deesidejambo]

Is that a statistical fact? Curious.

 

all th epolls, all of them, were consistent from th every beginning.

 

The polls have the advantage that they can break down the vote by age, location, party affiliation, and social class. they publish all their results, in detail, on their websites.

 

Some key points -

 

Women were strong No, men were Yes, just

Over 55s were strong No, 25-34s were strong Yes.

Social class ABC were strong No, Class DE were strong Yes. Example - Aberdeen and Embra No and Dundee and Weeg Yes.

 

This maybe can help to explain why the Nation is divided. It was not straight 55/45 over the whole Nation, it was an average of a large number of polarised views.

 

One very interesting point is in one of the polls, which I'll look up if I get time later, the respondents were asked whether their drivers were short-term economic, or identity or longer-term driven. In both Yes and No camps, the response was short-term economic, by over 70%. This give an insight to some on this site who view the issue as a long-term vision and perhaps can't understand why others don't share this view- a big majority of the voters voted for the opposite, i.e.money - the ABCs dont want to distribute wealth, and the DEs do. Whether Scotland was INdependent or not was irrelevant to these objectives.