Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[CJGJ]

There will be referendums periodically until Scotland becomes independent.

I really did think not for 15 to 20 years at least after last night

 

However if the promises made are not kept and we find funding is cut that may not be the case.

 

The No camp or any government need to realise promises made need to be kept and funding cuts under the Barnett formula were not part of those promises......the only thing that will re-energise a Yes vote in the next few years would be broken promises and deceit re funding.

 

So we await the near and longer term future as part of the Union.. we need to make the best of it and work hard to protect what we have and indeed improve our lot within said union as well as adding to the prosperity of the UK which can only benefit us all.

[Der Kaiser]

I'm disappointed but not at all surprised at the outcome. Fully expected a no win. It will be interesting now to see exactly what extra powers are granted.....unless Cameron is planning to appear on telly and scream "Scotland.....PSYCHE!.....".

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Given where yes was some 6 months ago, that is quite a wave of support. Instead of being triumphant, Cameron and Labour especially, should realise we are watching them. This I don't believe for most was about splitting from a Union but having the power to make our decisions for our own people.

 

If that is not respected and vows honoured, the Yes case and the movement of the people, and particularly young people, who are the new voters, and as of yet innocent to broken promise, will come again.

 

I hope these vows are now honoured and we live in peace. I don't count this as a loss, anyone who is not proud to be Scottish following such an extraordinary campaign simply does not understand the magnitude of these monumental times. The carnaraderie on both sides will live forever in the memory, but not as much as the PM laying bricks, or the sight of 100 Labour MPs heading North in panic.

 

Scotland through democracy I believe has just proved it could do what it hasn't voted for.

[Big Chae]

Toys oot the pram.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Given where yes was some 6 months ago, that is quite a wave of support. Instead of being triumphant, Cameron and Labour especially, should realise we are watching them. This I don't believe for most was about splitting from a Union but having the power to make our decisions for our own people.

 

If that is not respected and vows honoured, the Yes case and the movement of the people, and particularly young people, who are the new voters, and as of yet innocent to broken promise, will come again.

 

I hope these vows are now honoured and we live in peace. I don't count this as a loss, anyone who is not proud to be Scottish following such an extraordinary campaign simply does not understand the magnitude of these monumental times. The carnaraderie on both sides will live forever in the memory, but not as much as the PM laying bricks, or the sight of 100 Labour MPs heading North in panic.

 

Scotland through democracy I believe has just proved it could do what it hasn't voted for.

[The Mighty Thor]

 

 

It didn't take long for the focus to be on England

 

Less than 12 hours since the polls closed and England will now dominate the discussion

 

All the chat about Scotland losing money from the Barnett formula if they obtain tax raising powers and use them.. none of which was mentioned prior to the vote.

 

Still we voted for it.

 

The timetable has moved already and will continue to move out until it's buried after a tory landslide in may 15.

 

Anyone that thought anything different would happen is naive.

 

 

[The Wrinkly Ninja]

 

Can see Brown/Darling completing a coup to take over the lead of the Labour Party. Think Miliband is far too weak to challenge Cameron.

 

It is likely that, given the tri-party promises made re timetable for more devolved power to Holyrood, there will quite rightly be more devolved power to the rest of the constituent parts of the UK.

 

As there seems to be no desire for an English parliament, rather moves for English matters to be debated on and voted on by English MP's within Westminster, it may never be practical to have a non-English leader of any of the 3 main Westminster parties.

 

The same could be said of cabinet/shadow cabinet positions, particularly in key departments that are devolved such as health,

education & transport, possibly including chancellor, deputy etc in there also.

 

As for the Labour Party, such moves could see any Westminster Labour government elected with a majority of less than 40-50 nationally, in the minority when it comes to health, education, welfare etc involving England only.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Officially all over now.

[The Treasurer]

Very sad day.

I cannot for the life of me understand a so-called nation that does not want to run their own county.

I can only liken the No voters to the likes of St Mirren and Kilmarnock.

Constantly moaning about how the bigger,stronger "club" (for OF read Westminster) won't give the majority a fair share yet when the chance comes to actually do something about it they bottle it and hide behind their masters because they're scared of actually doing something and making a change.

 

Well I hope for all our sakes the un-holy trinity of Cameron, Clegg and Milliband (is there really any different between these parties now) deliver on their panic promise, but somehow I very much doubt it.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

 

 

Buddies again

[William H. Bonney]

 

Officially all over now.

 

Some may say it was over 300 years ago.

[The Treasurer]

Given where yes was some 6 months ago, that is quite a wave of support. Instead of being triumphant, Cameron and Labour especially, should realise we are watching them. This I don't believe for most was about splitting from a Union but having the power to make our decisions for our own people.

 

If that is not respected and vows honoured, the Yes case and the movement of the people, and particularly young people, who are the new voters, and as of yet innocent to broken promise, will come again.

 

I hope these vows are now honoured and we live in peace. I don't count this as a loss, anyone who is not proud to be Scottish following such an extraordinary campaign simply does not understand the magnitude of these monumental times. The carnaraderie on both sides will live forever in the memory, but not as much as the PM laying bricks, or the sight of 100 Labour MPs heading North in panic.

 

Scotland through democracy I believe has just proved it could do what it hasn't voted for.

Excellent post, well said.

[Stuart McNeill]

Meh. Always next time I suppose.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Buddies again

Never fell out. That was an excellent post.

[Guest GhostHunter]

Very sad day.

I cannot for the life of me understand a so-called nation that does not want to run their own county.

I can only liken the No voters to the likes of St Mirren and Kilmarnock.

Constantly moaning about how the bigger,stronger "club" (for OF read Westminster) won't give the majority a fair share yet when the chance comes to actually do something about it they bottle it and hide behind their masters because they're scared of actually doing something and making a change.

 

Well I hope for all our sakes the un-holy trinity of Cameron, Clegg and Milliband (is there really any different between these parties now) deliver on their panic promise, but somehow I very much doubt it.

 

Remember though - that not all of the 2m No voters were voting for more powers, a majority were voting for exactly what the question asked.

 

So you're being slightly disingenuous with your statement.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

 

 

 

 

 

The timetable has moved already and will continue to move out until it's buried after a tory landslide in may 15.

 

Anyone that thought anything different would happen is naive.

With a General Election coming, we are in a strong position to make something happen. Labour have Cameron now in a horrible position. He can only be happy he had saved his skin, but for a short while. He has it coming from all angles.

[Jambos1983]

Given where yes was some 6 months ago, that is quite a wave of support. Instead of being triumphant, Cameron and Labour especially, should realise we are watching them. This I don't believe for most was about splitting from a Union but having the power to make our decisions for our own people.

 

If that is not respected and vows honoured, the Yes case and the movement of the people, and particularly young people, who are the new voters, and as of yet innocent to broken promise, will come again.

 

I hope these vows are now honoured and we live in peace. I don't count this as a loss, anyone who is not proud to be Scottish following such an extraordinary campaign simply does not understand the magnitude of these monumental times. The carnaraderie on both sides will live forever in the memory, but not as much as the PM laying bricks, or the sight of 100 Labour MPs heading North in panic.

 

Scotland through democracy I believe has just proved it could do what it hasn't voted for.

 

put way better than I ever could. Well said

[chuck berrys hairline]

The difference is the 400k english voters, it's a conspiracy!!

Hope it's amicable as possible on the yes side, but I think the other issue is will this ignite seperatism in some areas and therefore increase bigotry and sectarianism in poor areas?

Edited September 19, 2014 by chuck berrys hairline

[CJGJ]

The timetable has moved already and will continue to move out until it's buried after a tory landslide in may 15.

 

Anyone that thought anything different would happen is naive.

55% Naive...

 

It will be interesting to see what happens in the 2015 election and whether the promises are kept prior to that vote and if the implications of the changes at Westminster impact upon the national elections

 

If not then the SNP could well govern again in Scotland with an increased vote.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Never fell out. That was an excellent post.

Most emotive subject I have ever engaged in. Only time will tell if this is a good result, but it should be, a federal UK could be successful.

 

[modedit]

[jambo1185]

The SNP do have some soul searching to do, some of the biggest wins for No came in their "heartlands". Tartan Tories must be pretty close to the mark, people who when it came down to it could not leave the Union.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

 

The difference is the 400k english voters, it's a conspiracy!!

Hope it's amicable as possible on the yes side, but I think the other issue is will this ignite seperatism in some areas and therefore increase bigotry and sectarianism in poor areas?

No doubt had an effect plus 750k ex pats who didn't vote. Would make that vote tighter but I do respect an awful lot of true Scots had polar opposite strong views to my Yes.

 

Scotland has more Middle class than ever before, the results started to look very obvious as they came in, where there is obvious inequality in Scotland. Rather than diss Glasgow or Dundee I hope these two cities do continue to receive our support.

[The Treasurer]

Remember though - that not all of the 2m No voters were voting for more powers, a majority were voting for exactly what the question asked.

 

So you're being slightly disingenuous with your statement.

Understand what you're saying Dex, but, keeping with my football theme, on occasions when change has looked possible in our game if all non-OF clubs stuck together, a few (or enough to block the vote) have been swayed by promises of "jam tomorrow" (fairer split of monies etc) but in reality we know from experience, very little has changed.

I just have the feeling that this last gasp panic promises from Cameron and his "Tory-Lite" chums sounds just like those same empty promises. Time will tell, but as I've said, I expect very little in the way of change that will benefit Scotland

[Mac_fae_Gillie]

Salmond has no reason to leave

he won the last election and put forward for more devolved government it was Cameron that forced the IndyRef' but thx to Salmond pushing up the support Westminster has caved in to the original demands.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

I really did think not for 15 to 20 years at least after last night

 

However if the promises made are not kept and we find funding is cut that may not be the case.

 

The No camp or any government need to realise promises made need to be kept and funding cuts under the Barnett formula were not part of those promises......the only thing that will re-energise a Yes vote in the next few years would be broken promises and deceit re funding.

 

So we await the near and longer term future as part of the Union.. we need to make the best of it and work hard to protect what we have and indeed improve our lot within said union as well as adding to the prosperity of the UK which can only benefit us all.

Fair comment.

I wonder if the date for the referendum was deliberate in case it went belly up with the General Election only being months away.

[Mysterion]

Remember though - that not all of the 2m No voters were voting for more powers, a majority were voting for exactly what the question asked.

 

True.

There will have been people with a gun to their head being asked to make a choice which left their job at risk and some who could clearly see they would lose their job.

 

I think that aspect has been played down significantly.

[micole]

Very disappointed, Scotland the "nearly men" again . So what does the future hold, a Tory/UKIP government , pulled out of the EU. Johan Lamont first minister, who knows, we all have to abide by the majority decision and get on with it and lets see if Cameron can live up to his promises of more devolved powers.

[LeftBack]

I think im more worried about the future now than I think I would have been if it was yes. I think there will be a backlash against the pesky scots and no matter what the promises we wont get any positive changes. Plus genuinely worried about a nightmare team of boris johnston/farage coalition which must be distinct possibility

[The Internet]

Just seen this on BBC

 

Mary Pitcaithly, confirming the result, says there were 3,429 rejected papers and the reasons for rejection were:

• Want of an official mark - 16
  
• Voter in favour of both answers - 691

 

691 people

[LeftBack]

That walloper george Galloway tweeting no lets work together to get the tories out. Is that not what he could have worked towards here instead of wearing a stupid hat and shouting lillian gish.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

Just seen this on BBC

 

 

 

691 people

Scottish humour.

Brilliant.

[Guest GhostHunter]

There's a video floating around Facebook of some poor chap working at a counting centre dutifully carrying out his task of verifying and checking, being accused of tampering with votes.

 

Really ?

 

[Floyd]

Just seen this on BBC

 

 

 

691 people

 

Does it tell you how many people drew a picture of a boaby on their paper??

[Sydney]

Right then, that's that out of the way. Let's get on with our lives again.

 

I think it would have been great emotionally if Scotland had got independence, but I also think it would have been an intellectually and materially poorer country if it had.

[The Internet]

Does it tell you how many people drew a picture of a boaby on their paper??

 

Can only imagine there was so many that they didn't bother counting.

[Rudolf's Mate]

I think im more worried about the future now than I think I would have been if it was yes. I think there will be a backlash against the pesky scots and no matter what the promises we wont get any positive changes. Plus genuinely worried about a nightmare team of boris johnston/farage coalition which must be distinct possibility

 

Honestly? The unknown from a yes vote was far greater than that of a no vote and this played a huge part in the way the vote went.

 

You're right about some form of backlash though. MP's down here are furious with Cameron, Clegg & Milliband for making promises to the Scottish people. They'll have a backlash themselves to deal with and it could have an impact on what was promised or the timetable to implement it.

 

It'll be interesting to see if Westminster fails to deliver on it's promises. Lets say the don't deliver! What can Scotland do about it? If Scotland could force another referendum due to this would the vote be similar? My fear would be that promises are broken, another referendum's held with the same outcome.

 

And this is from someone who would have voted no if I lived in the country.

[Nookie Bear]

a quarter of the voters in Scotlands largest city failed to show up.

That's a disgrace any way you look at it.

 

Not just the largest city, the city that forever bangs on about its political credentials.

[Stuart Lyon]

Today's Times has an article questioning Martin Gilbert of Aberdeen Asset Management support for Yes and the SNP - questioning government funding support of ?4M for the Scottish Open which AAM sponsor.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Stuart Lyon

[Jammy T]

See folk moaning about the Tories?

 

Why do they ignore the complete dogs dinner Blair and Brown made of things over 10 or so years?

 

Politicians are politicians are politicians whether they are from England, Scotland or Brussels.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

 

I think im more worried about the future now than I think I would have been if it was yes. I think there will be a backlash against the pesky scots and no matter what the promises we wont get any positive changes. Plus genuinely worried about a nightmare team of boris johnston/farage coalition which must be distinct possibility

Don't worry, you have seen the utter panic, and how desperately England DO NEED Scotland. That's a pretty special feeling, when push very much came to shove they have came to us cap in hand. There would be revolt and civil disorder which would spread to the much wider British populous.

They will be good little Tories

[Prince Buaben]

There's a video floating around Facebook of some poor chap working at a counting centre dutifully carrying out his task of verifying and checking, being accused of tampering with votes.

 

Really ?

 

 

Paranoia. Same as people taking a ******* pen with them to vote incase the x in pencil was rubbed out.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

 

See folk moaning about the Tories?

 

Why do they ignore the complete dogs dinner Blair and Brown made of things over 10 or so years?

 

Politicians are politicians are politicians whether they are from England, Scotland or Brussels.

Very true. Politics is very much centred. It has to be as class begins to spread more evenly. Labour has had to evolve to meet the times, which irks it's faithful. Be interesting to see how they react to more moderism when power is won

[Gorgiewave]

Sydney: what is "great emotionally" about being an "intellectually and materially poorer country"?

[Beni]

 

Salmond wanted devo max from the outset, Cameron said no to devo max. I doubt anyone in Scotland will complain if that's what we end up with.

 

My memory of it was that the SNP didn't want a three way vote between independence/devo max/status quo.

 

They wanted a heads we win tails you lose question, where the status quo needed 50% of the vote, but the other options only 25%.

 

Don't recall the exact details, but it was loaded against no change.

[Sydney]

Sydney: what is "great emotionally" about being an "intellectually and materially poorer country"?

 

I'd rather have a lesser paid job with more autonomy than a safe, better paid job with no decision making power.

 

I felt the same way about independence

 

I think that a Scotland which could make its own political decisions would be fantastic, but I think that many more talented people than present would leave for the bigger opportunities in england and elsewhere.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sydney

[Prince Buaben]

My memory of it was that the SNP didn't want a three way vote between independence/devo max/status quo.

 

They wanted a heads we win tails you lose question, where the status quo needed 50% of the vote, but the other options only 25%.

 

Don't recall the exact details, but it was loaded against no change.

 

It was the other way. Westminster wanted just Yes and No

[deesidejambo]

The opportunity was there, on a plate for Eck. A simple Yes/No questtion, that he got to chose (after his original one was booted for bias) with a simple majority of those voting. The lowest possible bar to get over.

 

But he blew it big time.

 

A campaign that started off far to glib and smug, a campaign that caused division by alienating Scots with inference that if they are not in "Team Scotland" they are not true Scots, a campaign that got tripped up by not having answers ready for simple questions on currency and EU risks. A campaign that treated even reasonable discussion questions as questions as "scaremongering" A campaign that resulted in direct intimidation of voters, certainly up here in Sheepland and no doubt in other places.

 

And his coup de gras - "The Sovereign Will of The Scottish People Will Not be Denied".

 

Well on that one he was correct!

[Rudolf's Mate]

 

My memory of it was that the SNP didn't want a three way vote between independence/devo max/status quo.

 

They wanted a heads we win tails you lose question, where the status quo needed 50% of the vote, but the other options only 25%.

 

Don't recall the exact details, but it was loaded against no change.

 

Think Kimi is correct. Press down here were saying 1 week ago that with the sure for yes, Cameron not giving the Devo option could come back and bite him.

[Gorgiewave]

Sydney: but any individual has almost zero power in a country, one vote among millions, with almost no "autonomy" unless many others agree. There will be lots of disappointed people.

 

But an individual can gain directly from intellectually and materially health circumstances even if nobody agrees.

[deesidejambo]

It was the other way. Westminster wanted just Yes and No

 

Thats correct - but only because Eck wanted a ridiculous split where Independence needed 25%.