Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Boris]

Naturally- however the UK is doing REALLY well comparatively and is the envy of many other nations re Growth and projected growth.

And the sad fact is Scotland sees socialism as in its fabric (its not) and aspiration, achievement and affluence as shameful.

FOr many a more equal society means we are all equally poor, and as long as we are all equally poor together thats fine.

Scots have a terrible habit of sneering at the successful.

 

Brave prediction here - the vote wont even be close. No will win by a distance as the middle classes sneak out their houses, avoiding the gazes of others to cast their no votes against their own country to their eternal shame, then pretend forever after they voted yes.

Because Scots feckin hate the middle class with their fancy hooses, flash motors and guid joabs

they may as well hate us as traitors as well

 

There are plenty people who you may describe as "middle class" that due to their family history have been brought up with "socialist" principles.

 

I disagree when you equate socialism to being anti achievement or aspiration or affluence. Those qualities, I'd argue, is what socialism wants too! I guess it's just how you go about implementing it.

[The Mighty Thor]

This is true.

 

But I would wager that if ASDA are forced to put prices up because of market conditions, then others will too. ASDA is a big player and will be better placed to cope than many.

 

The market (consumer) will always choose ? as it should be. So it will obviously be in every supermarket?s best interests to keep their costs down.

 

But calling for boycotts because the boss of a business says that a consequence of a vote will be X, when you are desperate for the consequence to be Y is pretty unbelievable. Guys like this should have no place in the public sphere. I can understand chaps like Wings attempting to organise this sort of thing ? but Sillars? Nah, pretty shameful IMO.

 

p.s. Why would the ASDA boss be at it? Is he a BT stooge?

 

No he's an opportunist. I've dealt with the retailers on the UK for 20+ years. Distribution costs won't change from 18/9 - 19/9, that i can guarantee.

[The Mighty Thor]

If you don't like the new Scotland, then leave.

 

Is that what it's coming to?

 

you clearly missed the

[The People's Chimp]

Love it or leave it man.

 

Don't worry, I'm not leaving.

[BoJack Horseman]

If you don't like the new Scotland, then leave.

 

Is that what it's coming to?

 

I don't think so. Merely pointing it out as an option. Plenty people have emigrated from the UK over the years due not being happy with it. They can continue to do so from an independent Scotland.

[doctor jambo]

There are plenty people who you may describe as "middle class" that due to their family history have been brought up with "socialist" principles.

 

I disagree when you equate socialism to being anti achievement or aspiration or affluence. Those qualities, I'd argue, is what socialism wants too! I guess it's just how you go about implementing it.

 

Scottish socialism is a race to the bottom.

Scotland must also be one of the very few countries where people will deny being middle class when they are.

Most other countries people dream UP the way.

In Scotland we pretend downwards

MIddle class has a cringe factor to it here

No?

Posh is a term of abuse- as is middle class/affluent whatever

[TheMaganator]

 

Brave prediction here - the vote wont even be close. No will win by a distance as the middle classes sneak out their houses, avoiding the gazes of others to cast their no votes

 

I am starting to think this way too. I have always believed that No will win. I used to assume it'd be a humping, then I thought a narrow win - now I am starting to think it'll be 60/40.

 

No science - just my gut feeling.

[TheMaganator]

No he's an opportunist. I've dealt with the retailers on the UK for 20+ years. Distribution costs won't change from 18/9 - 19/9, that i can guarantee.

I am not suggesting they will - but the day before independence day to the day after independence day may be a different story though

[OmiyaHearts]

Naturally- however the UK is doing REALLY well comparatively and is the envy of many other nations re Growth and projected growth.

And the sad fact is Scotland sees socialism as in its fabric (its not) and aspiration, achievement and affluence as shameful.

FOr many a more equal society means we are all equally poor, and as long as we are all equally poor together thats fine.

Scots have a terrible habit of sneering at the successful.

 

Brave prediction here - the vote wont even be close. No will win by a distance as the middle classes sneak out their houses, avoiding the gazes of others to cast their no votes against their own country to their eternal shame, then pretend forever after they voted yes.

Because Scots feckin hate the middle class with their fancy hooses, flash motors and guid joabs

they may as well hate us as traitors as well

Is this a serious post? It's so out of touch with reality it's got to be a joke.

 

There are plenty of Yes voters who have 'fancy' houses, flash cars and good jobs. Do you think we are all unemployed or have crap jobs?

 

It could be interpreted your view says a lot about No voters. Just trying to keep down those pesky Yes supporters and stop them from getting all the nice things that No voters can afford.

 

It's clearly not like that.

Edited September 11, 2014 by donaldmclachlan

[The Mighty Thor]

I am not suggesting they will - but the day before independence day to the day after independence day may be a different story though

Why?

[The People's Chimp]

I don't think so. Merely pointing it out as an option. Plenty people have emigrated from the UK over the years due not being happy with it. They can continue to do so from an independent Scotland.

 

It's meant in jest on here, but there is a nasty element to Nationalism which is bound up in an "If you're not with us, you're against us" mentality. I think that telling people they can leave if it's not to their liking is inflammatory, and is the thin end of a nationalistic wedge.

[hughesie27]

Scottish socialism is a race to the bottom.

Scotland must also be one of the very few countries where people will deny being middle class when they are.

Most other countries people dream UP the way.

In Scotland we pretend downwards

MIddle class has a cringe factor to it here

No?

Posh is a term of abuse- as is middle class/affluent whatever

 

More equal societies are more happy societies.

[Captain Sausage]

Will be out of the country next year, irrespective of the vote. But I know a lot of young professionals who will be leaving Scotland in the event if a Yes vote. It's not scaremongering, it's just the way it is.

 

I believe a lot of well educated, well paid young professionals will be moving south if Scotland goes independent. Which is something I don't think I've seen much discussion around. If 45% of the population votes no and loses, how many will move south? I'd wager that number wouldn't be insignificant.

[westbow]

I am starting to think this way too. I have always believed that No will win. I used to assume it'd be a humping, then I thought a narrow win - now I am starting to think it'll be 60/40.

 

No science - just my gut feeling.

I thought 60/40 a couple of weeks ago, 55/45 now. The recent mass registration of the suggestible, gormless and toothless, (sorry I mean those who have been clearly overlooked and have an understandable apathy when it came to the political system).will have had an effect, mibbee.

[hughesie27]

Will be out of the country next year, irrespective of the vote. But I know a lot of young professionals who will be leaving Scotland in the event if a Yes vote. It's not scaremongering, it's just the way it is.

 

I believe a lot of well educated, well paid young professionals will be moving south if Scotland goes independent. Which is something I don't think I've seen much discussion around. If 45% of the population votes no and loses, how many will move south? I'd wager that number wouldn't be insignificant.

Plenty jobs to stroll into down south aye?

[Gabriel]

 

 

 

Naturally- however the UK is doing REALLY well comparatively and is the envy of many other nations re Growth and projected growth.

And the sad fact is Scotland sees socialism as in its fabric (its not) and aspiration, achievement and affluence as shameful.

FOr many a more equal society means we are all equally poor, and as long as we are all equally poor together thats fine.

Scots have a terrible habit of sneering at the successful.

 

Brave prediction here - the vote wont even be close. No will win by a distance as the middle classes sneak out their houses, avoiding the gazes of others to cast their no votes against their own country to their eternal shame, then pretend forever after they voted yes.

Because Scots feckin hate the middle class with their fancy hooses, flash motors and guid joabs

they may as well hate us as traitors as well

 

I don't think your prediction will be far off the mark, though it does read as if the people you describe have greater trouble with their own consciences. It's a hard decision and people don't have to justify their choice, but I agree that it will be like Celtic fans in Seville by next Friday regardless of who wins.

[Captain Sausage]

 

Plenty jobs to stroll into down south aye?

 

In my industry? Yep. Plenty around the world too.

 

If companies elsewhere can pull in talent freed up as a result of the vote, why wouldn't they do so?

[BoJack Horseman]

It's meant in jest on here, but there is a nasty element to Nationalism which is bound up in an "If you're not with us, you're against us" mentality. I think that telling people they can leave if it's not to their liking is inflammatory, and is the thin end of a nationalistic wedge.

 

I don't doubt that at all. Sums up a lot of English people's view as well. The fact we're even holding a referendum is utter treachery and we should just **** off.

[Forrest]

Genuine question.

Has the head of big company come out and said it'll be fine, business as usual?

 

The head of Aberdeen Asset Management seemed fairly comfortable with the prospect of a "Yes" vote.

 

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9726-financial-chief-criticises-severe-overreaction-as-post-indy-business-scares-escalate

[BoJack Horseman]

Will be out of the country next year, irrespective of the vote. But I know a lot of young professionals who will be leaving Scotland in the event if a Yes vote. It's not scaremongering, it's just the way it is.

 

I believe a lot of well educated, well paid young professionals will be moving south if Scotland goes independent. Which is something I don't think I've seen much discussion around. If 45% of the population votes no and loses, how many will move south? I'd wager that number wouldn't be insignificant.

 

I'll take that wager. Anyone claiming that they'll up sticks in the event of a Yes vote, without even waiting to see how it pans out, are just blowing hot air. Laughable really.

[hughesie27]

In my industry? Yep. Plenty around the world too.

 

If companies elsewhere can pull in talent freed up as a result of the vote, why wouldn't they do so?

Sounds like it is a desirable field. No doubt we will have thousands of students across the country ready to fill their shoes.

[Stuart Lyon]

True to form the Yes voters claim they are right and everyone else is wrong. They must have indoctrination sessions to drum this into them.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Stuart Lyon

[graygo]

Will be out of the country next year, irrespective of the vote. But I know a lot of young professionals who will be leaving Scotland in the event if a Yes vote. It's not scaremongering, it's just the way it is.

 

I believe a lot of well educated, well paid young professionals will be moving south if Scotland goes independent. Which is something I don't think I've seen much discussion around. If 45% of the population votes no and loses, how many will move south? I'd wager that number wouldn't be insignificant.

 

Then someone else from the job pool will fill their posts.

 

Unemployment in this country will fall to a new low.

Edited September 11, 2014 by graygo

[Captain Sausage]

Why? Scotland will shift fairly left of centre in the event of a Yes vote, which obviously doesn't appeal to everyone.

[hughesie27]

I'll take that wager. Anyone claiming that they'll up sticks in the event of a Yes vote, without even waiting to see how it pans out, are just blowing hot air. Laughable really.

 

What do you mean? It's easy to leave everything a the drop of a hat. Family? Pfft,lets run of to eh, somewhere in England. Anywhere!

Friends? My only friends are those who buy bottles of Vueve Clicquot on their lunch hour. I'll find more in no time. House? Well, the housing market is due to collapse on 19th September after Yes so I guess we can just get a new place and rent out the Edinburgh pad.

Edited September 11, 2014 by hughesie27

[Captain Sausage]

 

 

Then someone else from the job pool will fill their posts.

 

Unemployment in this country will fall to a new low.

 

The point is more around Scotland losing quite a substantial number of technically talented, difficult to replace members of society.

[Brandt]

John Lewis are at it now too.

 

Never knowingly undersold indeed

 

Who gives a **** about John Lewis. Does anybody actually shop there?

Edited September 11, 2014 by Brandt

[BoJack Horseman]

True to form the Yes voters claim they are right and everyone else is wrong. They must have indoctrination sessions to drum this into them.

 

How can anyone claim to be right or wrong on a topic of which no one knows that much about?

 

It's pretty much unknown what exactly will happen in the result of a Yes vote. Yes voters are saying that it might be a positive outcome, No voters are saying it might be a negative outcome. That's all there is to it really.

[doctor jambo]

More equal societies are more happy societies.

 

USSR, Cambodia,North Korea, China the former eastern block countries that the youth keeps leaving but oddly few of ours move to.

All more equal, all less happy

The best you can hope for is reasonable balance of redistribution- and the UK does that quite well (though nothing is perfect)

[rossthejambo]

True to form the Yes voters claim they are right and everyone else is wrong. They must have indoctrination sessions to drum this into them.

 

Don't think I've seen anyone suggest that, but how is that different from you dismissing anything that Yes voters say as them being brain washed exactly?

[doctor jambo]

What do you mean? It's easy to leave everything a the drop of a hat. Family? Pfft,lets run of to eh, somewhere in England. Anywhere!

Friends? My only friends are those who buy bottles of Vueve Clicquot on their lunch hour. I'll find more in no time. House? Well, the housing market is due to collapse on 19th September after Yes so I guess we can just get a new place and rent out the Edinburgh pad.

 

Precisely the kind of chip-on-the-shoulder inverse snobbery that I was talking about.

[hughesie27]

USSR, Cambodia,North Korea, China the former eastern block countries that the youth keeps leaving but oddly few of ours move to.

All more equal, all less happy

The best you can hope for is reasonable balance of redistribution- and the UK does that quite well (though nothing is perfect)

 

Well **** me sideways.

[Gabriel]

 

 

 

The point is more around Scotland losing quite a substantial number of technically talented, difficult to replace members of society.

 

It's Freshers week and the intake of international students is, I'm told, higher than ever. It's a global market and, with control over its own immigration policy, it might be easier to retain many such talented individuals.

[hughesie27]

Precisely the kind of chip-on-the-shoulder inverse snobbery that I was talking about.

 

My points are valid. My satrical flavour is just an added bit of spice based on your description of these characters.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

 

 

USSR, Cambodia,North Korea, China the former eastern block countries that the youth keeps leaving but oddly few of ours move to.

All more equal, all less happy

The best you can hope for is reasonable balance of redistribution- and the UK does that quite well (though nothing is perfect)

 

Do you live in Scotland? You sound like somebody who emigrated in the 70s?

[jambo1185]

The next week is just going to be more ridiculous displays of whataboutery from both sides isn't it?

[TheMaganator]

Galloway is back on Question Time tonight!

 

Sturgeon not turning up, apparently

 

Big feartie etc etc

[BoJack Horseman]

Any No voters that are married? Why did you go through with it, knowing that there's an almost 50/50 chance of you getting divorced? Should have saved yourself the inevitable bother.

[Don Draper]

Galloway is back on Question Time tonight!

 

Sturgeon not turning up, apparently

 

Big feartie etc etc

 

I suspect if this were somehow the other way around, and Goldie or Davidson were digging their heels in about not appearing on the same programme as Galloway, you'd have the pom-poms out in support.

[leginten]

 

 

 

The point is more around Scotland losing quite a substantial number of technically talented, difficult to replace members of society.

 

Isn't the brain-drain part of the very fabric of the Union in any case? How many millions of the most able young Scots have headed south in order to enjoy better prospects in the last century alone?

 

One hope that hasn't really been expressed much in the debate is that more of the brightest and best might remain in, or be drawn back to, an independent country.

[Gabriel]

 

Any No voters that are married? Why did you go through with it, knowing that there's an almost 50/50 chance of you getting divorced? Should have saved yourself the inevitable bother.

 

There could be just as many 'Yes' voters asking the same question. :-)

[Maroon Sailor]

 

Galloway is back on Question Time tonight!

 

Sturgeon not turning up, apparently

 

Big feartie etc etc

 

Can she talk without moving her head all over the place ?

 

Can't stand Galloway but would love to see him rip her a new one

[TheMaganator]

I suspect if this were somehow the other way around, and Goldie or Davidson were digging their heels in about not appearing on the same programme as Galloway, you'd have the pom-poms out in support.

 

Quite the opposite.

 

I was in favour of Griffiths being on there a few years back.

 

This is a democracy. That means you don't try and silence those you don't agree with. (That is why I was so angry about Farage being hounded off the streets by the radical independence mob).

 

EDIT: and why wouldn't she - with a week to go to the biggest day in her and her party's existence - want to get the exposure of QT?

EDIT EDIT: I emailed the BBC to voice my disgust at them cancelling Galloway because of Sturgeon spitting the dummy. I like to think it was theMaganator wot won it

Edited September 11, 2014 by TheMaganator

[ToadKiller Dog]

According to EU figures the UK has the largest trade deficit in the industrialised world . A recovery being built on sand .

Me thinks RUk needs us and our worthless declining Black stuff in the coming years .

 

As for Galloway she should face the loud mouth and his empty rhetoric or put Jim Sillars up .

 

Moribund refused to debate with Sturgeon while he was up the other day on a radio show debate .

Kept a bit hush

[TheMaganator]

Isn't the brain-drain part of the very fabric of the Union in any case? How many millions of the most able young Scots have headed south in order to enjoy better prospects in the last century alone?

 

One hope that hasn't really been expressed much in the debate is that more of the brightest and best might remain in, or be drawn back to, an independent country.

Short to medium term the brain drain will get worse IMO. Why would you hang around and hope for the best during the 'transition period' when you can decant to London and ply your trade there?

[leginten]

 

 

Short to medium term the brain drain will get worse IMO. Why would you hang around and hope for the best during the 'transition period' when you can decant to London and ply your trade there?

 

It may do in the short term. But there is no doubt that a city like Edinburgh with the full powers of a capital city would offer a range and quantity of opportunities which simply aren't there at the moment. Sectors like media and broadcasting and politics would have to grow, for example.

[Thunderstruck]

 

 

Who gives a **** about John Lewis. Does anybody actually shop there?

 

Yes because it is owned by the John Lewis Partnership in which all employees have a share. So aside from that "Cooperative" basis, you are being served by people who have a stake in customer satisfaction.

 

From a consumer point of view, their prices are excellent as are their guarantees, customer service and coffee shops. I wouldn't go anywhere else for a TV or White Goods.

[The People's Chimp]

Scottish socialism is a race to the bottom.

Scotland must also be one of the very few countries where people will deny being middle class when they are.

Most other countries people dream UP the way.

In Scotland we pretend downwards

MIddle class has a cringe factor to it here

No?

Posh is a term of abuse- as is middle class/affluent whatever

 

The view you have is possibly warped by your frame of reference, a deprived area of Ayrshire iirc? What you miss is that this opinion of yours - which is totally out of touch, but with twinges of reality - really boils down to the scottish cringe, the scottish crisis of confidence, which, if anything, a Yes vote would go towards rectifying. With your mindset you should actually be voting Yes.

Edited September 11, 2014 by The People's Chimp

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Did Salmond really describe RBS's statement this morning as "scaremongering"?

 

 

He's like a robot with six buttons. Button five - SCAREMONGERING

[Don Draper]

Did Salmond really describe RBS's statement this morning as "scaremongering"?

 

 

He's like a robot with six buttons. Button five - SCAREMONGERING

 

The only folk I've seen flogging this word to death in the last couple of weeks are in the No camp. It's getting a bit tedious.