DETTY29 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) I'll join in with every other non-blinded non-blue nose and say AGAIN - Dear Comical There is a big difference between tax liability and breaking SFA rules ref not registering side contracts and, the latter is what is to be investigated. PS How much tax and NI did you actually squirt out the window, when you made Hearts late payment of wages look like a vegetarian compared to Hannibal Lecter? Colin, It's very simple in football/sporting terms. The tax / NI position is irrelevant. While the tax case decided that only the whole Rangers ran a legal tax avoidance system they were but neither wholly innocent of evasion. It suggested that MIH/Rangers Were obstructive in supporting the enquiry It only took the intervention of the police to obtain documents asked for in relation to their tax affairs, ut more importantly In some circumstances renumeration that would normally be expected to be released to the football authorities wasn't. They are neither completely innocent or completely guilty but one thing the EBT report confirmed is that there is a prima facie case for them to answer to the football authorities. The INDEPENDENT COMMISSION must sit and Rangers must be more inclusive than they were for the EBT tax case. For over 20 years SDM stood by that Rangers always did THE RIGHT THING. While he is no longer at the helm, it's up to other Rangers people to confirm they support they do indeed principles of doing the right thing. Edited November 23, 2012 by DETTY29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munch Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 tainted titles must be stripped now and natcho novo should get a knock on the door from Hector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 tainted titles must be stripped now and natcho novo should get a knock on the door from Hector No mate. The football authorities have to prove that Rangers broke the football rules and if guilty punish them in line with general football punishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 @TomEnglishSport: Scotland on Sunday piece tomorrow: The rise and fall of the rangerstaxcase blog http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/why-its-nonsense-to-say-rangers-won-the-tax-case-so-the-spl-should-drop-its-witch-hunt/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 @TomEnglishSport: Scotland on Sunday piece tomorrow: The rise and fall of the rangerstaxcase blog http://scotslawthoug...its-witch-hunt/ Here's English's article. I actually think it is quite fair. Unlike his blogging compadres, RTC has said nothing about the verdict, even though he/she claimed they would do so once it came out. http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-blogged-down-by-its-own-hubris-1-2658640 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) Just a loan, aye right.. MIH's own solicitor has said the basis of the trust benefits was contractual so to me it is open and shut on dual contracts. The political issue is that the SPL commission has been put in an awkward position because of all the procrastination of the tax tribunal. Although the evidence is and was used for both situations, they are actually assessing two different things. In short, the SPL commission could have sat and ruled independent of the tax tribunal but now the line of "Ra gers are innocent BTW" is what is being fed to the public, they have been put in an incredibly difficult position. Edited November 25, 2012 by Geoff Kilpatrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Here's English's article. I actually think it is quite fair. Unlike his blogging compadres, RTC has said nothing about the verdict, even though he/she claimed they would do so once it came out. http://www.scotsman....ubris-1-2658640 I also think it's fair. Many of us warned about RTC's quite extraordinary hubris and triumphalism many months ago - not to mention its disgraceful censorship of anyone who held any kind of different opinion. At one point, RTC even compared itself in favourable terms with Woodward and Bernstein. The blogger's on the run now - and as well as being an indication of rank cowardice, there's more than an element of natural justice in that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Here's English's article. I actually think it is quite fair. Unlike his blogging compadres, RTC has said nothing about the verdict, even though he/she claimed they would do so once it came out. http://www.scotsman....ubris-1-2658640 To be fair to Tom English I do agree with him mostly there. I think the blog has been very useful way of getting facts out and being an investigative piece, but the author of it does come across as pompous and self-loving. I remember when the Guardian gave him space to write about himself and his blog, he just came across as a paranoid Celtic fan who thought there was an anti-catholic conspiracy in Scotland and it felt more like a fan vendetta against a rival club rather what I thought (and hoped) it was at first as a person who wanted to show up an injustice in a company getting around paying tax that the taxpayer rightfully demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Here's English's article. I actually think it is quite fair. Unlike his blogging compadres, RTC has said nothing about the verdict, even though he/she claimed they would do so once it came out. http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-blogged-down-by-its-own-hubris-1-2658640 No, Tom English himself says it - RTC hurriedly announced Rangers had lost the BTC when it was announced, e.g. On Twitter - saw it myself and was initially taken in ... then shat it when the BBC said it was 2-1 against, and tried to cover his tracks with deletions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glamorgan Jambo Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) I downloaded the tribunal findings/verdict and started slowly reading through over the weekend. Now reached P70ish so I've read the full opinions of the majority verdict. Their findings are pretty clear and logical. No matter how poorly administered the scheme was (in law this is the responsibility of the scheme trustees not the Murray group companies) they have decided that the trusts set up in Jersey are genuine and stand alone entities and as such they can come to no other conclusion than the payments into trust were in most cases legitimate and not 'earnings or emoluments'.. A lot of the evidence from RTC (and presumably from the dissenting panelist) is circumstancial i.e. the way the trust was operated (by the trustees), and the way MIH tried to withold information, and the fact that the players (protectors rather than trust beneficiaries) immediately took the full amount of their trust payments out as 'loans' . David Murray should put a statue of Alex McLeish in his garden as his action in using his trust in a much more straightforward manner (e.g. putting money in as well as taking money out) has IMO been very significant and saved dodgy Dave the worst case scenario of a personal tax liability that could have been getting close to ?10 million. My guesses for the next steps are - 50:50 whether HMRC appeal but my current opinion is its less rather than more likely - a lot of bluster but not much action from Murray against the bloggers/information sources - as these same bloggers and information sources are allegedly holding on to information about some 'interesting' trust activities involving former RFC managers. - RTC's plans for a Christmas best seller will be permanently shelved Edited November 26, 2012 by Glamorgan Jambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Tomo's back - from dodging missiles in Gaza ... http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/great-rangers-tax-avoidance-scheme/3227 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Tomo's back - from dodging missiles in Gaza ... http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/great-rangers-tax-avoidance-scheme/3227 Interesting stuff, and HMRC have 56 days to appeal, so we should know if they intend to early in the New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 A good and in some ways humourous look at the FTTT verdict from a tax specialist http://www.mlmsolutions.co.uk/Blog/uncategorized/guest-blog-by-chartered-tax-adviser-hmrc-rangers-big-tax-case-judgement.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 McConville on great form : http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/guess-who-the-record-condemned-as-morally-bankrupt-with-indefensible-greed-for-using-sleight-of-hand-to-avoid-taxes/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 McConville on great form : http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/guess-who-the-record-condemned-as-morally-bankrupt-with-indefensible-greed-for-using-sleight-of-hand-to-avoid-taxes/ He is absolutely bang on the cash with this one!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 He is absolutely bang on the cash with this one!!! The hypocracy of the Record on the record.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Archie McPh has some sycophantic nonsense in the Herald today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/sport/football/bbc-documentary-hardened-views-on-rangers-but-now-different-questions-need-to-be-addressed.19522821 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 The hypocracy of the Record on the record.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Archie McPh has some sycophantic nonsense in the Herald today. From Archie's well informed and unbiased article in which he has a go at the BBC - At the crux of all this was their award-winning documentary delving into what they perceived to be the murky depths of possible illicit payments at Ibrox. With respect to all the other media organs wading into Rangers, this programme was the real game-changer. Maybe he can ask SDM (as no one else has) - why did Rangers make so many payments to so many people so long after they had ceased to be on the payroll at Ibrox ? Sounness for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Maybe he can ask SDM why they obfuscated, hid material, refused to supply evidence, contributing to the delays in the outcome for so long ... when they were "innocent" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Tom English?@TomEnglishSport At midday today I'm hosting an online chat about Rangers, HMRC, EBT, FTT, ABC, XYZ and, well, you get the idea.http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/webchats ? Oooh ... I'll be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 On now : http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/webchats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Trying to get on ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 At last : " RichB : ] Tom - one thing we all ought to agree is that the tax decision was not a "binary" one - right/wrong; innocent/guilty etc. It seems to me that all it has decided is that the "payments were loans" - not that it was right that they were used. We'd all love not to pay tax. The actions of particularly "Mr Red" were not those of an innocent party. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 https://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/the-real-battle-begins/ Good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritchies75 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) Lawyers for former Rangers chairman, Sir David Murray, have made a complaint to the Crown Office, over the publication of information about his tax affairs. His lawyer, Prof Peter Watson, said Sir David regards such information as private and confidential. He said its publication was "unlawful". http://www.bbc.co.uk..._medium=twitter Edited November 27, 2012 by ritchies75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Green in twisting words to get angry fans onside shock: So let http://www.bbc.co.uk..._medium=twitter Edited November 28, 2012 by jamboinglasgow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Green in twisting words to get angry fans onside shock: So let http://www.bbc.co.uk..._medium=twitter Strange how at no point does Green acknowledge how instrumental the whole tax issue/restart in SFL3 was in his ludicrously low purchase price? Eckythump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munch Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Strange how at no point does Green acknowledge how instrumental the whole tax issue/restart in SFL3 was in his ludicrously low purchase price? Eckythump! HMRC Can still launch an appeal Edited November 28, 2012 by nortonjambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinref Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 name change again http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/5db74c0268600869640a90f7f0a31017/compdetails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 name change again http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/5db74c0268600869640a90f7f0a31017/compdetails According to that, their first set of accounts are due in May 2014. My understanding is that for them (what ever they're called!) to qualify for a UEFA European Club Licence, necessary to play in European competition, they must have submitted three years of audited accounts. Does this mean that they're ineligible to play in Europe until 2016/2017 at the very earliest..? Or have I got that wrong..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdannyb Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Sports Direct Arena. ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Classy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 name change again http://wck2.companie...017/compdetails Link not working now ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Sports Direct Arena. ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Classy. Why not ? A tink outfit for tinks quite befitting really like ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I'd happily go to the Wonga Dome is we were getting a seven figure sum for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I'd happily go to the Wonga Dome is we were getting a seven figure sum for it Celtic are changing thiers to Savile Row! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Celtic are changing thiers to Savile Row! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester™ Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 HMRC seeking permission for an appeal as per STV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 HMRC seeking permission for an appeal as per STV. Just about to post this. Even more pleasing now that we have thrashed a deal out with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) http://sport.stv.tv/...ibunal-verdict/ HMRC seeking permission for an appeal as per STV. Edited December 4, 2012 by milky_26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Here we go again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottish_chicP Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 loving the timing of the announcements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munch Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) HM Revenue and Customs are to "seek permission" to appeal the verdict of their tax tribunal with Rangers. A three-person panel found by a majority of 2-1 that the club, owned by Murray Group Holdings through a subsidiary at the time, was not liable to pay tax on its use of Employee Benefit Trusts. HMRC argued the loans were being paid as remuneration to players, making them liable to income tax and National Insurance. The tribunal ruled, however, that the loans were recoverable by the Trust, therefore not liable for tax. HMRC had originally assessed that ?46.2m was due in tax but the tribunal declared the final bill would be ?substantially reduced? from that amount. Rangers made payments on behalf of a selection of players and other employees through the EBT scheme between 2001 and 2010. The initial hearing took place in January this year but the verdict was not delivered until November 20. Edited December 4, 2012 by nortonjambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 More mileage in this old family favourite thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) They are bursting with rage. The fact they can't understand the difference between our case and theirs speaks volumes. I don't feel like we should have to explain something so simple a 2 year old H15S fan could understand, but even so.... "But HMRC don't do deals!!!!" - yes, that statement was in relation to CVAs. They do deals on a daily basis, and anyway, we are paying a very substantial amount of the sum claimed, it's a deal that works for both parties to avoid this dragging on any longer. "We never got to negotiate" - in relation to PAYE/NI, it's because Whyte never told anyone and strung it along until HMRC called his bluff. Why HMRC waited 6 months is another issue which needs questioning though, as we rightly get picked up on it within days. However, unlike Rangers at the time, Hearts never hid anything and showed they were trying to pay (Whyte had no intention of paying and HMRC knew it) and that they could pay in full with more time. Which we got, and we have stuck to our side of the bargain. In relation to our "big tax cases" its because Rangers and HMRC both thought they would win. Settlement negotations collapsed very quickly after the initial ?10m offered was rejected, which was a substantial drop of what HMRC thought they were due. Hearts appear to have been given advice that they aren't likely to succeed at the tribunal, or at least that our case isn't certain enough to make the risk of losing and having to pay the lot in one go worth it. Someone thought it made no difference because we can't afford 10k a week to pay the installments and will be bust by Christmas anyway. Given the wages of some of the players out of contract who we wouldn't miss and have been waiting for ages to get rid of, 10k a week should be very easy, even if we bring in a few replacements or offer better terms to some of the younger guys to get them on long contracts. Morons to a man. Edited December 4, 2012 by jambo1185 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 The timing is brilliant - it's like an early Christmas present.... It's official folks - we're paying ?500k a year to the tax man... they'll use Hearts money due to them and use it to destroy Rangers in the 3rd and final round of the tax case. I suppose the money SevcoRangers2 will pay Hearts for Templeton will in part go to the tax man who'll seek to destroy the history of the ZombieCo.... Ding ding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Her Majesty realises that in seven months there will be an extra mouth to feed from the Civil List, so must have told Hector to get his finger out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
true-jambo Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Surely no real surprise here, as I am sure Craig White was quoted, at the onset of Administration, as saying that HMRC had warned that if they lost the big tax case, they (HMRC) would appeal it. This thread just got interesting again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Surely no real surprise here, as I am sure Craig White was quoted, at the onset of Administration, as saying that HMRC had warned that if they lost the big tax case, they (HMRC) would appeal it. You're quite correct, but most of the Weejia chose to ignore that Hector had stated he would appeal, and by now they've doubtless forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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