The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.

[Footballfirst]

1 minute ago, Lovecraft said:

I guess he is about to have another one then.

 

You could be right. His original bankruptcy was related to tax due from his involvement in the Eclipse Film scheme, as used by many other players and managers.

[Lovecraft]

1 minute ago, Heartsofgold said:

 

Which, unfortunately, they will have done before the bankruptcy. If he’s had an agreed sequestration and stuck to the terms (and if he’s now been discharged so there’s no reason to think otherwise) then the HMRC cannot pursue them further for this debt. 

 Not sure how it works for historic debt, or new debt.

 

 

[The Future's Maroon]

20 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Cue a number of former players seeking bankruptcy, if they haven't done so already.

Didn’t Barry the Crab go down this route recently? 

 

 

[Lovecraft]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

You could be right. His original bankruptcy was related to tax due from his involvement in the Eclipse Film scheme, as used by many other players and managers.

 

I wonder how much that was for.

 

[Footballfirst]

8 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 

I wonder how much that was for.

 

 

From the "currant bun"

Quote

Their home is a gated property near Larkhall, Lanarkshire, which the couple bought for £1.2 million in 2003.

Property records show Mrs Ferguson, 39, became the sole owner in November, 2011, when the footballer handed over his interest in the home for ‘love, favour and affection’.
The move means the house is likely to be out of reach to creditors who Ferguson, 39, owes money to.
Under bankruptcy laws, an asset which has been transferred more than five years before the date a person is made bankrupt cannot be used to pay off their debts.
Ferguson applied for his own bankruptcy after running up debts of £1,425,633 and it was approved by the Accountant In Bankruptcy, Scotland’s insolvency service, earlier this month.
He declared that he has only £3,000 worth of assets available to help pay off his creditors.

Ferguson also gave up all his company directorships in firms which he ran with his wife before his money woes became public.

He resigned as a director from an investment company, a nursery business and a media firm during 2013 and 2014 but Mrs Ferguson remains involved in them all.

Ferguson is one of a number of former Ibrox stars who faced paying back money they had received in Employee Benefit Trusts (EBTs) after Rangers lost a battle with HMRC at the Supreme Court earlier this month.

The former midfielder, who recently stepped down as manager of Clyde, received £2.5 million in EBT payments

He also invested in a film production partnership called Eclipse which has targeted by HMRC after being ruled to be a tax avoidance scheme.

Ferguson was previously listed as a director with Eclipse Film Partners No.9, a scheme which allowed investors the opportunity to claim tax relief through investing in the production of movies

In April last year, the Supreme Court upheld a judgement that one of the biggest partnerships, Eclipse 35, was a tax-avoidance scheme.

HMRC has used that judgement to issue demands to investors, who include several footballers and managers, in the other 38 similar partnerships.

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Footballfirst

[jock _turd]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Property records show Mrs Ferguson, 39, became the sole owner in November, 2011, when the footballer handed over his interest in the home for ‘love, favour and affection’.

He must hae a hell of a trust she winnae dae the dirty on him ! 

[Lovecraft]

13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

From the "currant bun"

 

Cheers.

 

Just spoke to my partner, who happens to be a debt specialist and money adviser.  She said it will come down to if they see the new debt as fraudulent.  If they don't,  all debt up to the bankruptcy, including debt they don't know about, is counted in the previous bankruptcy.

 

 

 

 

 

[Heartsofgold]

2 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 

Cheers.

 

Just spoke to my partner, who happens to be a debt specialist and money adviser.  She said it will come down to if they see the new debt as fraudulent.  If they don't,  all debt up to the bankruptcy, including debt they don't know about, is counted in the previous bankruptcy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

True unfortunately. Any and all creditors had their chance to pursue him and appeal the original sequestration at that time. If they didn’t then tough. However any debts created after that time can be pursued. 

[Doc Rob]

37 minutes ago, Dallas Green said:

 

How do they get away with that? Surely a court could look and see property / money being transferred beforehand and think, that's a bit fishy.

 

You’d think, but then BDO were able to sell Ibrox to Sevco for peanuts and got away with it...

[milky_26]

Just now, Doc Rob said:

 

You’d think, but then BDO were able to sell Ibrox to Sevco for peanuts and got away with it...

Wasn't that duff and Phelps rather than bdo?

[BelgeJambo]

Puts McLeish in a sticky situation 

[jambovambo]

Excellent. 

[The Mighty Thor]

Fabulous news. 

Hopefully HMRC chase them to the bitter end.

[norrie1952]

I'm just listening to sportsound.I don't understand all the finance things they are on about.Im sure I'm not the only one.Could someone explain it in laymans term please.

[highlandjambo3]

Just seen stv news........ hahaha. Smug 

[sac]

5 minutes ago, BelgeJambo said:

Puts McLeish in a sticky situation 

Not if he coughs up and pays his taxes.

[Jambo dans les Pyrenees]

1 hour ago, The Future's Maroon said:

Didn’t Barry the Crab go down this route recently? 

 

 

Yes, but only sideways.

[BelgeJambo]

2 minutes ago, sac said:

Not if he coughs up and pays his taxes.

Will he though?

 

If he doesn’t then he is no better than Allardyce and should be hoofed

[sac]

Just now, BelgeJambo said:

Will he though?

 

If he doesn’t then he is no better than Allardyce and should be hoofed

 

Totally agree, pay up or quit. Or both, cause he’s a fud anyway.

[Shrekeo]

18 minutes ago, Queensland Jambo said:

Yes, but only sideways.

 

 

 

McLeish should be emptied if he fails to pay in full.

 

The likes of Ferguson, Rae, Dodds, Boyd etc should never get a paid gig for the BBC  again should they not do the same.

 

I’ll not be holding my breath.

[colinmaroon]

31 minutes ago, norrie1952 said:

I'm just listening to sportsound.I don't understand all the finance things they are on about.Im sure I'm not the only one.Could someone explain it in laymans term please.

 

 

Basically, the EBT's (Under the counter payments in other words) paid during the reign of Murray the Cheat are taxable and, those who got these "bonuses" now have to pay tax by April 2019 or the bill keeps getting higher and higher.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

I think that the BBC has missed half the story about the liability of the EBT recipients.

 

All that was disclosed by Trident, the EBT Trustee, was advice to the recipients of the EBTs to talk to HMRC about their tax liability if they hadn’t already done so, and sooner rather than later.

 

When the new legislation came out about outstanding loans and tax charges, HMRC advised that there would be no liability if they repaid their loans by 5 April 2019. Only if there were amounts outstanding, HMRC would then levy a tax charge on the sums received, which would be assessed in tax year 2018/19, thus would be payable under self assessment by the end of January 2020. 

 

EBT recipients were encouraged to talk to HMRC regarding their own circumstances and agree a settlement arrangement individually, i.e. either pay back the loan and allow the EBT to run its course with the player's family as the beneficiaries, or face a tax charge.

 

During the Whyte trial, Murray alluded to what he believed HMRC intended to do with the individuals who had EBTs. If I picked him up correctly, he suggested that HMRC would only seek the straight amount of tax due on the sum received as loans, with no interest or penalty. I might be wrong in my recollection, but that is what I took from what Murray said.

 

James Doleman noted in a tweet at the time: "Says He understands bill will be paid by recipients, payable 2020"

 

For more info:
https://www.taxation.co.uk/Articles/2018/07/10/338257/disguised-remuneration-and-loan-charge-rules

Edited August 27, 2018 by Footballfirst

[alwaysthereinspirit]

28 minutes ago, sac said:

Not if he coughs up and pays his taxes.

Doubt it’s even crossed his mind to pay up.

None of them will willingly hand over any monies due without a fight.

How they’ll manage to pay tax lawyer fees while claiming bankruptcy could be interesting reading.

[Footballfirst]

[Shanks said no]

Is this really worthy of the BBC headline news?

 

All it seems to be is a Jersey based fund manager has written to the EBT holders telling them that the HMRC will be after them.

 

Am I missing something here, HMRC haven't actually done something new, have they?

 

PS I hope I am wrong and they bankrupt the lot of them

 

 

[norrie1952]

8 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

 

Basically, the EBT's (Under the counter payments in other words) paid during the reign of Murray the Cheat are taxable and, those who got these "bonuses" now have to pay tax by April 2019 or the bill keeps getting higher and higher.

 

 

Cheers Colin ,that I understand now.I usually come on here for football matters.Some of us don't go much deeper.Makes sense explained simply.

[jambosdad]

Could the pursued sue any of the old co Management/Board for misleading them.  

Is it only UK residents who are being chased.

[JamboAl]

42 minutes ago, norrie1952 said:

I'm just listening to sportsound.I don't understand all the finance things they are on about.Im sure I'm not the only one.Could someone explain it in laymans term please.

Roughly speaking

Rangers players and officials received monies from the club by way of an Employee Benefit Trust.  Those monies were described as loans and as such the club did not apply PAYE/NIC to these payments.  Loans of course need to be paid back but apparently there was no such requirement nor was it pursued.  In short phree munny which came to them by reason of their employment ie disguised remuneration.

The practice would obviously be of huge benefit to these employees and indeed would enable the club to entice new players and/or retain their better players.

HMRC come along and contend that the said disguised remuneration payments (phree munny) were wages by another name and should have had tax and Nat Ins deducted like happens with the rest of the employed population.

It is the employer's legal obligation to deduct/remit tax etc and so HMTC chase them first for what is due.  But, lo and behold, the company has gone into liquidation so it became difficult/impossible to get their fair whack which of course helps to pay for hospitals  etc amongst other things.  The next port of call for HMRC is to get the tax from those who actually reaped the benefit and they are therefore chasing the players/officials who scored with this tax free money.  That's where we're at now.

 

 

[Don Dan]

Rangers cheated. HMRC want their money. The trophies are now null and void. The 5 Stars need  removed. Those scoundrels at Hampden who facilitated this need named and shamed.

[norrie1952]

6 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Roughly speaking

Rangers players and officials received monies from the club by way of an Employee Benefit Trust.  Those monies were described as loans and as such the club did not apply PAYE/NIC to these payments.  Loans of course need to be paid back but apparently there was no such requirement nor was it pursued.  In short phree munny which came to them by reason of their employment ie disguised remuneration.

The practice would obviously be of huge benefit to these employees and indeed would enable the club to entice new players and/or retain their better players.

HMRC come along and contend that the said disguised remuneration payments (phree munny) were wages by another name and should have had tax and Nat Ins deducted like happens with the rest of the employed population.

It is the employer's legal obligation to deduct/remit tax etc and so HMTC chase them first for what is due.  But, lo and behold, the company has gone into liquidation so it became difficult/impossible to get their fair whack which of course helps to pay for hospitals  etc amongst other things.  The next port of call for HMRC is to get the tax from those who actually reaped the benefit and they are therefore chasing the players/officials who scored with this tax free money.  That's where we're at now.

 

 

Thanks mate,it's easier when it's explained so we can understand all the smoke and mirrors .

[Swanny17]

36 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Rangers cheated. HMRC want their money. The trophies are now null and void. The 5 Stars need  removed. Those scoundrels at Hampden who facilitated this need named and shamed.

 

Including the current Scotland manager. 

[JackLadd]

46 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Rangers cheated. HMRC want their money. The trophies are now null and void. The 5 Stars need  removed. Those scoundrels at Hampden who facilitated this need named and shamed.

 

 

 

We need to clear out the scoundrels who told us to move on. Every one of them.

[RobNox]

42 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Rangers cheated. HMRC want their money. The trophies are now null and void. The 5 Stars need  removed. Those scoundrels at Hampden who facilitated this need named and shamed.

 

It is scandalous.  Unfortunately, the 5-way agreement that allowed the new club to re-enter the Scottish League and assume the old club's titles, also indemnified the new club against any actions of the old club.

 

There are early drafts of the 5-way agreement that have seen the light of day online, where it is clear that the question of title stripping was very much on the agenda as a condition of allowing the new club back in.  However, at some point the authorities caved in to Newco's threats and dropped any notion of stripping titles.

[DETTY29]

3 hours ago, Shrekeo said:

 

 

 

McLeish should be emptied if he fails to pay in full.

 

The likes of Ferguson, Rae, Dodds, Boyd etc should never get a paid gig for the BBC  again should they not do the same.

 

I’ll not be holding my breath.

And in no way should that **** who killed Rangers and probably put a dagger through the heart of any form of unity in Scottish football forever be given the billion pound plus contract at Gogarburn.

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, farin said:

The establishment have already made sure that will never happen I’m afraid. 

 

The "establishment" includes the rest of the clubs in Scottish football, sadly. We could have stopped it, but the blue pound was too much of an attraction. We're just as much to blame for what happened subsequently to the cheating.

[CJGJ]

This was Arsenals response a few years back in 2005

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/sep/09/newsstory.sport9

 

The FA Cup holders' accounts, released on Monday, detailed a tax charge of £11m, equivalent to 56.9% of their pre-tax profits, as they sought to repay monies saved from their exploitation of a tax loophole. There is no suggestion that Arsenal acted illegally. However, the Inland Revenue is expected to seek repayment of the tax avoided on what the House of Lords deemed to be "potential emoluments".

The loophole involved employee benefit trusts, a favoured scheme of high-earning City bankers which facilitated the avoidance of the flat-rate 11% of employer national insurance contributions.

The tax bill is slightly larger than one would expect it to be because we have had employee benefit trusts and there was a decision in the House of Lords we've provided for," said Arsenal's managing director Keith Edelman. "We're just being cautious."

Though such trusts enabled the employee to be paid a "loan" on which a tax rate as low as 1%

could be charged - and the loans often required no repayment to the employer - it is not expected that the Revenue will seek to recover funds from Arsenal's players. But the Revenue has moved to claw back money from the club itself.

Worryingly for Arsenal, even if the taxman did make such an investigation into the players' earnings, foreign nationals can ultimately avoid any future UK tax liability simply by moving abroad, a factor that may influence players when they consider their football futures.

With the Inland Revenue having set up its own football unit to investigate the sport's financial transactions, employee benefit trusts are just one aspect the taxman is expected to clamp down on.

[Spellczech]

1 hour ago, RobNox said:

 

It is scandalous.  Unfortunately, the 5-way agreement that allowed the new club to re-enter the Scottish League and assume the old club's titles, also indemnified the new club against any actions of the old club.

 

There are early drafts of the 5-way agreement that have seen the light of day online, where it is clear that the question of title stripping was very much on the agenda as a condition of allowing the new club back in.  However, at some point the authorities caved in to Newco's threats and dropped any notion of stripping titles.

Only Rangers 2012 fans recognise their titles. Everyone else knows better.

[...a bit disco]

3 hours ago, BelgeJambo said:

Puts McLeish in a sticky situation 

 

Why do you think he got the Scotland gig?

 

 

[Beast Boy]

23 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

And in no way should that **** who killed Rangers and probably put a dagger through the heart of any form of unity in Scottish football forever be given the billion pound plus contract at Gogarburn.

 

[JamboAl]

12 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

This was Arsenals response a few years back in 2005

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/sep/09/newsstory.sport9

 

The FA Cup holders' accounts, released on Monday, detailed a tax charge of £11m, equivalent to 56.9% of their pre-tax profits, as they sought to repay monies saved from their exploitation of a tax loophole. There is no suggestion that Arsenal acted illegally. However, the Inland Revenue is expected to seek repayment of the tax avoided on what the House of Lords deemed to be "potential emoluments".

The loophole involved employee benefit trusts, a favoured scheme of high-earning City bankers which facilitated the avoidance of the flat-rate 11% of employer national insurance contributions.

The tax bill is slightly larger than one would expect it to be because we have had employee benefit trusts and there was a decision in the House of Lords we've provided for," said Arsenal's managing director Keith Edelman. "We're just being cautious."

Though such trusts enabled the employee to be paid a "loan" on which a tax rate as low as 1%

could be charged - and the loans often required no repayment to the employer - it is not expected that the Revenue will seek to recover funds from Arsenal's players. But the Revenue has moved to claw back money from the club itself.

Worryingly for Arsenal, even if the taxman did make such an investigation into the players' earnings, foreign nationals can ultimately avoid any future UK tax liability simply by moving abroad, a factor that may influence players when they consider their football futures.

With the Inland Revenue having set up its own football unit to investigate the sport's financial transactions, employee benefit trusts are just one aspect the taxman is expected to clamp down on.

My understanding is that there were other EPL clubs similarly involved and I suspect, if true, they have probably owned up and made confidential settlements with HMRC.

Because Arsenal have paid the tax that is the end of the matter as far as the players are concerned.

[redjambo]

Just now, farin said:

 

Your preaching to the converted. 

 

I know. But I think we have to keep reminding ourselves from time to time that it wasn't just the "establishment", it was Scottish football in general. If only there had been more Turnbull Huttons around...

[jamboz]

3 hours ago, jambosdad said:

Could the pursued sue any of the old co Management/Board for misleading them.  

Is it only UK residents who are being chased.

 

Yeah that’s what I was thinking, especially if they have side letters. 

[Hagar the Horrible]

With the side letters, And SDM and the Club have thrown these players under the bus, If I was one of the 13 named earlier, I would at least try and hold the newco to blame as it is after all football debt?  And the 5WA should be exposed. Remember the side letters stated they did not have to pay it back, the club therefore should take the hit?  Its the same club after all?

 

Micky Stewart had sympathy for these players, I don't, they knew the side letters were not presented to the SPL,  So Rangers/SDM and their agents knew it was dodgy or why hide the ****,  Sympathy me, no I am laughing my tits off

[redjambo]

Just now, farin said:

 

We as a club voted not to parachute them into the top tier, Hutton made sure they slide further down the pole. The people who rubber stamped the secret 5WA facilitated them far more. ??

 

Do you honestly believe that the other chairmen in the SPL did not know the contents of the 5WA as it was being negotiated?

[Tasavallan]

Does UEFA's Financial Fair Play rules apply to EBTs?

[redjambo]

12 minutes ago, farin said:

 

It’s secret for a reason, but has anybody ever asked the then sitting chairman that question?. 

 

I have no idea. I just find it very difficult to believe that the SPL chairmen were not kept current with the 5WA negotiations and final agreement, whether formally or in informal communication with those negotiating the agreement and with each other. There is no way that they wouldn't have insisted on knowing what was happening given the agreement's crucial impact on Scottish football and the potential effects on their clubs.

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

With the side letters, And SDM and the Club have thrown these players under the bus, If I was one of the 13 named earlier, I would at least try and hold the newco to blame as it is after all football debt?  And the 5WA should be exposed. Remember the side letters stated they did not have to pay it back, the club therefore should take the hit?  Its the same club after all?

 

Micky Stewart had sympathy for these players, I don't, they knew the side letters were not presented to the SPL,  So Rangers/SDM and their agents knew it was dodgy or why hide the ****,  Sympathy me, no I am laughing my tits off

 

If you went to court using that line I don't think you would succeed.  A Judge would almost certainly take the view that any reasonable person could not believe that he/she could get a loan without having to pay it back and more so when players have agents acting for them.

When you get a "loan" from your employer and don't have to pay it back, it is difficult for anyone to come to the conclusion it is other than additional remuneration.  I really don't know how the courts needed more than one bite at the cherry to see that.

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, farin said:

 

Only the then chairman can answer that question correctly tbh. Personally I think they were only told as much as they had to know. Plausible deniability in case the truth ever came out etc because the whole thing stunk to high heaven. 

 

We might find out the truth one day, I wouldn’t hold my breath though. ?? 

 

Indeed. ?

[The Gasman]

7 hours ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

Is this really worthy of the BBC headline news?

 

All it seems to be is a Jersey based fund manager has written to the EBT holders telling them that the HMRC will be after them.

 

Am I missing something here, HMRC haven't actually done something new, have they?

 

PS I hope I am wrong and they bankrupt the lot of them

 

 

 

Must admit, this is where I’m at. ?

[Beast Boy]

7 hours ago, farin said:

 

It’s secret for a reason, but has anybody ever asked the then sitting chairman that question?. 

 

Of those FWA agreement signatories; one has resigned, and another has been getting his sob stories out in the press, whilst being backed to the hilt by Lawell. ?