Victorian Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I don't doubt for a second that the SPL (as a business) would be desperate to have Rangers NewCo slot seamlessly into Rangers place. I also don't doubt for a second that a lot of the SPL Clubs Chairmen could be "persuaded" to vote to let this happen. Assuming the change to the SPL rule(s) needs an 11-1 (or 10-1) majority, I'm not quite so sure this could be achieved. I don't see what could be offered / done to persuade the SFL not to go off one one. Again, regardless of what they might want to do, I think the SFA may also struggle to back Rangers NewCo. Only time will tell, I guess. i just think there's a real possibility of the whole thing being declared some kind of impending disaster. the media would be only too willing to back the theory that rangers must be allowed straight back in to the SPL to avert financial armageddon for the whole of scottish football. before long it would be assimilated into accepted dogma that it is the right thing to do and the governing bodies would find some way of riding roughshod over anything else placed in their way. and it would all be in the name of saving scottish football. invent a 'just' cause for yourself and brush off all dissenting voices as people looking after themselves and not looking at 'the bigger picture'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Tarts 1874 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Not sure if this is entirely true, for 2 reasons 1. It would be the case that those players would be liable if they were still domiciled in the UK, otherwise the employer takes the hit. 2. According to that guy King at rangers that the players had a secondary contract with Rangers that stated that Rangers would be liable for any future tax claims Rubbish. Tax and N.I. are the employer's responsibility unless the players were Self-employed - which they aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodedajambo Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 i just think there's a real possibility of the whole thing being declared some kind of impending disaster. the media would be only too willing to back the theory that rangers must be allowed straight back in to the SPL to avert financial armageddon for the whole of scottish football. before long it would be assimilated into accepted dogma that it is the right thing to do and the governing bodies would find some way of riding roughshod over anything else placed in their way. and it would all be in the name of saving scottish football. invent a 'just' cause for yourself and brush off all dissenting voices as people looking after themselves and not looking at 'the bigger picture'. When was Scottish football last competitive in terms of teams other than the old firm winning the league out of sight? The mid 1980's. You know your history, the dons, the arabs and the jt's were putting up a great show at that time. And the gers were poorer in terms of support and footballing quality until the inflationary bubble started with murray and souness. The overall quality of the scottish game was on a high. Successive world cup adventures, european glory nights outside of glasgow. ( cept the hibs but somethings dont change). Maroon tinted glasses and all but maybe the game in the mid 80's was at its best despite the crowd violence, health and safety concerns, racism and sectarianism. The prices were more modest to see a game, there was still a strong local connection with your team with more scottish players, and less tv coverage. This is not to be racist just its good to see local lads doing the business. These events could reoccur. the past isn't always worse than the present. My point is, after a fair bit of havering, is that a downsized rangers and even possibly hearts may allow the grassroots of football to reemerge and refocusing on developing youth which seems to be where we are heading anyway. Anyway i can dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 When was Scottish football last competitive in terms of teams other than the old firm winning the league out of sight? The mid 1980's. You know your history, the dons, the arabs and the jt's were putting up a great show at that time. And the gers were poorer in terms of support and footballing quality until the inflationary bubble started with murray and souness. The overall quality of the scottish game was on a high. Successive world cup adventures, european glory nights outside of glasgow. ( cept the hibs but somethings dont change). Maroon tinted glasses and all but maybe the game in the mid 80's was at its best despite the crowd violence, health and safety concerns, racism and sectarianism. The prices were more modest to see a game, there was still a strong local connection with your team with more scottish players, and less tv coverage. This is not to be racist just its good to see local lads doing the business. These events could reoccur. the past isn't always worse than the present. My point is, after a fair bit of havering, is that a downsized rangers and even possibly hearts may allow the grassroots of football to reemerge and refocusing on developing youth which seems to be where we are heading anyway. Anyway i can dream.... good post. in those day i think scottish football was well placed to cope without a fully competitive rangers. as you rightly pointed out, there were great aberdeen and dundee united sides that both won the league and both won cups. hearts also got in on the act of challenging for honours, alas without actually winning anything. the game in those days wasn't anything like as reliant as it is today on virtually every pound going spare. the whole attendance - gate money - expenditure balance was much healthier. and with no major TV income. it would be great for the game to return to such an era, but i think it's way too late. over reliance on TV money and in players bleeding clubs dry can't be reversed very easily. i think many clubs would rather play it safe and allow rangers to carry on as normal, rather than have some actual football ambition themselves... let alone any sense of natural justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Tragically your last paragraph is what I think will happen and what sickens me to the core! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VALDOS Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I heard that from one yesterday, though we both thought it was heehaw as HMRC have already turned down a settlement worth more. I think this might be based on the reports HMRC have lost two smaller cases, very similar to the Rangers one. The big problem now is if Rangers are taken down by HMRC, they take the SPL with them. Neil Doncaster has made certain of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Yet another court case for Rangers to get involved with, this time as a pursuer against a former supplier of match programmes. It looks like they will have to write off ?500K as a result though. Best to read the attached link for more details. http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/rangers-fc-yet-another-court-case-this-time-as-pursuers-but-still-not-good-news/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 The Fyfe Ireland case has been settled. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15853802 If Rangers are trying to avoid paying ?1,200 they are in serious Doo-doo! Hearts just settled a bill of ?1m but if you read the papers it's us who are about to go down the tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Yet another court case for Rangers to get involved with, this time as a pursuer against a former supplier of match programmes. It looks like they will have to write off ?500K as a result though. Best to read the attached link for more details. http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/rangers-fc-yet-another-court-case-this-time-as-pursuers-but-still-not-good-news/ CRE8 was the programme printing company owned by ex-Hibs 'striker' Lee Power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Yet another court case for Rangers to get involved with, this time as a pursuer against a former supplier of match programmes. It looks like they will have to write off ?500K as a result though. Best to read the attached link for more details. http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/rangers-fc-yet-another-court-case-this-time-as-pursuers-but-still-not-good-news/ That they appear to have "lost" half a million quid, cannot be doing Rangers/Craig Whyte's cash flow position any favours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 That they appear to have "lost" half a million quid, cannot be doing Rangers/Craig Whyte's cash flow position any favours. Doesn't really affect the cash flow too much, but the sum would have appeared in RFC's accounts as a debtor and, in an insolvency process, it would have been an asset that CW could have purloined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Root Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 ?The collapse comes just three years after the group?s predecessor company Cre8 UK collapsed owing creditors including Birmingham City and Watford more than ?2.1m.? Erm...surely if dealing with this new co, you wouldn't allow them to get to a point of owing you ?500k?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 If you were an agent why on earth would you agree to one of your clients going to a clubs that is on the brink, and your players registration possibly getting returned to the league, Aluko, ok he is there until the end of the season, with options, but surely you would walt stability for your clients. likewise any third party clients before doing any business, I would want money up front for even a ?50 job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Stock Exchange investigating Rangers/Whyte Herald Article I particularly like the last two sentences .... A statement issued jointly on behalf of Craig Whyte and Rangers FC plc read: ?These accusations were made in a recent BBC Scotland documentary which is now the subject of litigation. While legal action is ongoing, it would be inappropriate to make any public comment. Any announcements will be made in due course through the proper channels.? An Insolvency Service spokeswoman confirmed Whyte had been disqualified as a director in 2000. Good luck with that litigation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig_ Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Nothing to add to the discussion at this point, but can't believe it's fallen to the second page, hence this shameless bump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Doesn't really affect the cash flow too much, but the sum would have appeared in RFC's accounts as a debtor and, in an insolvency process, it would have been an asset that CW could have purloined. Sorry FF, I should have been a bit clearer. I meant that by missing out on this, and turning a potential loss into an actual one requiring written off, it will make it even harder (and more expensive?) for Craig Whyte to continue to get a line of credit for paying Rangers day to day running costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 rangers have helpfully decided to confirm that craig whyte was indeed disqualified from holding a directorship from 2000 - 2007. well thanks... i was still swithering as to whether or not i should believe the geezer from companies house over craig whyte. still suing the BBC though... if they can find a legal firm to provide their valuable time and services on credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flecktimus Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 rangers have helpfully decided to confirm that craig whyte was indeed disqualified from holding a directorship from 2000 - 2007. well thanks... i was still swithering as to whether or not i should believe the geezer from companies house over craig whyte. still suing the BBC though... if they can find a legal firm to provide their valuable time and services on credit. [/quo SFA enquiry into whether he should own a Scottish football club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 that would be a short meeting. ok gentlemen, we're here to discuss mr whyte's suitability for owning a controlling stake in a member club. erm... who wants to start? erm... well we can't really be seen to get involved, can we? i agree, let's go to a vote... you could have waited for me to finish before putting your hands up lads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 RFC actually published their full year accounts to 30/06/11 today, the last possible day that they could do so to avoid a suspension on the PLUS market on which their shares are listed. http://www.plus-sx.com/newsItem.html?newsId=1419465 The more interesting point is that they are "Unaudited". I guess that auditors aren't satisfied, either with the treatment/recording of the large tax bill or are unwilling to sign them off as a "going concern". It probably won't affect them at the moment as the SFA/SPL won't have the balls to initiate an investigation, but they do need to be signed off by the end of March for licensing purposes for next season's Euro competitions. They may not last until the end of March in any event. The accounts don't look to desperate in themselves as they include revenue last season of around ?19M from CL/EL participation and they were under financial constraints by Lloyds for much of the season. However, we are now in a whole new ball game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC_Hearts Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Are "unaudited" accounts worth the paper their written on ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah O Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Dead due date please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Does the ongoing HMRC court case to change the creditor status have a bearing on Tax FC? They are challenging the rule that they are one of the last creditors to get paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Does the ongoing HMRC court case to change the creditor status have a bearing on Tax FC? They are challenging the rule that they are one of the last creditors to get paid. Unlikely. The only pending legal change that could affect things is that from 6th April 2012, HMRC will have the ability to seek up front payments in advance for PAYE & NIC in respect of any company that they think may default on its tax liabilties. This may affect any newco RFC if it retains the likes of Whyte, Betts or King as directors, given their history of avoiding tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 So now we have to wait till the end of next week, then see what happens with the "small" tax bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester™ Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 And Whyte confirms he had a director ban: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15976000 Does this admission mean him suing the BBC isnt going ahead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 And Whyte confirms he had a director ban: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15976000 Does this admission mean him suing the BBC isnt going ahead? Not a chance! He will peddle the myth that he is going to sue them for a while yet and then the case will disappear much in the same way Jelavic will in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Not a chance! He will peddle the myth that he is going to sue them for a while yet and then the case will disappear much in the same way Jelavic will in January. Agreed. but just to clarify: BBC: CW was banned as a director. CW: No I wans not, appologise or i will sue BBC: no we stand by what we said BBC still waiting to hear from CW lawyers CW: yes i was banned, but i will still sue if the BBC do not say sorry. BBC: ta da ta da ta da SFA/SPL: how can we get this swept under the carpet... Celtc fans: It a conspiricy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartofmidlothian Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Apologies if none of this is news! http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/craig_whyte_reveals_rangers_debt_has_been_cut_in_half_to_14m_but_admits_directorship_ban_1_1989401 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 To sumerise Their turnover at ?57.2m was an overall increase of ?0.9m over the previous year Gate receipts and hospitality sales increased overall by ?1.3m to ?27.1m, Yet on the radio they were complaining they were down this season. Net operating expenses increased by ?3.6m to ?47.5m Net debt on 30 June 2011 was ?14.1m, compared to ?27.1m the previous year Net current liabilities up to ?34.3m from ?21.6m so thier debt is down by ?13m but their libilities are up ?13m this is just creative accounting moving money into a another column. Next years figures wont paint such a rosie picture, season ticket sales down, corporate down, stadium expenses up massively player sales down, unless Jellyfish goes. no metion of ringfenced funds by the courts, or what they still owe to the tax man even if they win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah O Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 When will they die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 When will they die? It will only end when the head orc is stabbed through his shrivelled black heart with a wooden stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 The net debt position is just an accounting trick which companies use to hide their true financial status. You also need to look in more detail at breakdown of the Creditors totals A better calculation is Current Assets minus Current Liabilities minus Long term liabilities i.e. Current assets (Cash in hand + trade and other debtors) ?13.8M Current Liabilities - less than a year (Wavetower Loans + Trade creditors + Social security and taxes due) ?33.1M Long term Liabilities - more than a year (Lease and trade creditors) ?4.8M I make that about ?24.1M of actual debt. I'm using a combination of figures from the RTC blog and those published yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bickfest Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Interesting numbers. Creditors - amounts due within 12 months up from ?27m to ?49m, but not reflected in an increase in debt. Presumably, then, this is largely due to the prepaid season tickets (the holders of which will be ordinary creditors if they go mammaries skyward). So no provision for the big tax case. As I see it the auditors cannot sign off without qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samster Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 no metion of ringfenced funds by the courts, or what they still owe to the tax man even if they win I'm sure Footballfirst previously mentioned the ring-fenced funds automatically get transferred to HMRC around 8/9 Dec. Assume that still stands? And does anyone know who writes the rangertaxcase.com blog or does he/she deliberately keep it anonymous (not surprising)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboJay Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 It will only end when the head last orc is stabbed through his shrivelled black heart with a wooden stake. There, fixed it for you, RFC....... Hing on.....RFC?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Interesting numbers. Creditors - amounts due within 12 months up from ?27m to ?49m, but not reflected in an increase in debt. Presumably, then, this is largely due to the prepaid season tickets (the holders of which will be ordinary creditors if they go mammaries skyward). So no provision for the big tax case. As I see it the auditors cannot sign off without qualification. The bulk of the increase in Creditors due within one year is the result of Wavetower/Group taking over the Lloyds debt. The Wavetower debt is payable on demand, (within one year) while the Lloyds debt was payable in more than one year. As a result, the figure for Creditors (more than a year) has fallen from ?37.9M to ?20.4M The ST figure included in Creditors less than a year is ?15.6M. Multi-year STs amounting to ?7.25M are also included in the Creditors more than 1 year figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 There, fixed it for you, RFC....... Hing on.....RFC?????? I know... kinda' ironic really... Never noticed it when I changed username. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Palmer Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 BBC Scotland has learned the #SFA are investigating whether or not Craig Whyte falls into their fit and proper person guidelines #SFA been in dialogue with #Rangers for weeks. They want answers but have so far not been given the details they want. SFA Stewart Regan confirms they are investigating #Rangers. Says they await 'disclosure of Key information.' Chris McLaughlin on Twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMA MAROON Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 illustrative and not exhaustive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 When will they die? Rangers FC won't die. 39 pages of smug faces and wishful thinking while our own club is a bawhair away from going down the pan. Couldnae make it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I know... kinda' ironic really... Never noticed it when I changed username. Time for the return of Mothy!!! Or, time for the transmogrification of RFC!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Grimes Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15992698.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Hmm an investigation into Craig Whyte by the SFA! Does anyone else get the feeling that this could end up helping Rangers in the event of them going into admin/liquidation? Kind of thing I have in mind is 'Craig Whyte is a bad man therefor we must help save Rangers! It's not their fault after all.' Probably typical Jambo paranoia but I do doubt, whatever their findings, that Rangers FC will suffer in any way other than to be told they must get rid of Whyte (rather he must resign/sell up) at the earliest opportunity. Which is, as we all know, Whyte's intention anyway (after he's made his intended killing). I think the best thing that might come out of it is if they tell Whyte and Rangers that, if they fail to pay any debts to other football clubs in full, or, fail to to achieve a CVA, they will not be allowed back into the Scottish League. This just might scupper Whyte's plans to get in and out of administration with Rangers left intact while all unsecured creditors get nothing. I believe the SFA's main stance should be to secure the good name of Scottish football (if indeed it does have one) well ahead of 'saving' any one club, no matter how big they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 predictably, the SFA articles of association don't paint the SFA into a corner regarding the punitive action relating to a director/club who fails their fit & proper test. it's exactly the way the SFA would want it to be. there is no 'cast in stone' sanction. the SFA have already stated that possible sanctions will only be discussed in the event of the fit & proper test not being met by whyte. having no stated policy on rules like this always leaves 'wiggle room'. corrupt institutions will always naturally love this kind of wiggle room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I'd expect a small fine (that he won't pay until he's taken to court ) or a censure to be the only sanction that the SFA will take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McClure Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Rangers FC won't die. 39 pages of smug faces and wishful thinking while our own club is a bawhair away from going down the pan. Couldnae make it up. BUZZ KILLINGTON!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 How is Whyte's libel action against the BBC going? Craig? Craig, are you there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VALDOS Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 BBC Scotland has learned the #SFA are investigating whether or not Craig Whyte falls into their fit and proper person guidelines #SFA been in dialogue with #Rangers for weeks. They want answers but have so far not been given the details they want. SFA Stewart Regan confirms they are investigating #Rangers. Says they await 'disclosure of Key information.' Chris McLaughlin on Twitter. Are this mob fully intent on showing their utter incompetence at every opportunity? Why would they not have carried out the investigation at the point in which he made it clear on his intentions to buy the club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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