HMRC Freeze Rangers Bank Accounts? Martin Bain Story (merged)

[Charlie-Brown]

Did Rangers provide the SFA or SPL with false information ?

 

it is difficult to determine without full disclosure whether the fault or blame lies with Rangers and/or the SFA however the awarding of their UEFA license for this season when they appear to have failed to meet the criteria and failure to pay the previously agreed small tax bill of ?2.8M + penalty by June 30th 2011 should have triggered their UEFA license being suspended. There needs to be an inquest into why that didn't happen as it affected Celtic, Hearts, Dundee Utd & Kilmarnock who would all have been bumped up a notch if Rangers had been refused entry.

 

It seems our processes and transparency issues are inadequate to say the least.

[Drylaw Hearts]

DH it is not a trial nor a court case and it is not a case of establishing guilt. It is a tax tribunal. The tax authorities have gone through Rangers finances and raised a Tax Bill plus interest for unpaid Taxes and also levied a financial penalty fine based on lack of disclosure and co-operation from the company oand how seriously they view the deliberate tax under-payment. This is an actual bill and it is legally enforceable.

 

Rangers have appealled all or part of the bill as is their right however given that on the last day of the previous tribunal sitting Minty immediately sold Rangers for a quid the prospects of their success at tribunal do not look good and are almost certainly facing a bill running into tens of millions if HMRC are not awarded the full amount.

 

Depending on what is revealed at tribunal and after the findings and papers are known then perhaps some criminal or civil cases MIGHT arise if injured parties start proceedings but that is for later on.

 

I'll rephrase...

 

The SFA or SPL cannot do anything until the outcome of the tribunal.

[Drylaw Hearts]

If said company was a clear dodge to avoid settling debts, particularly football debts.

 

The SFA/SPL have allowed Motherwell to continue as normal despite them not settling debts and this includes debts to former players.

 

You surely don't expect them to decide against allowing a new Rangers in at the bottom ?

 

Even if miraculously they did decide against it Rangers would do and Airdrie Utd and buy a club struggling to survive and relocate etc etc etc.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The SFA/SPL have allowed Motherwell to continue as normal despite them not settling debts and this includes debts to former players.

Motherwell didn't form a new company. They came out of administration with a CVA. Motherwell FC maintained their SFA affiliation.

 

You surely don't expect them to decide against allowing a new Rangers in at the bottom ?

I don't but I am saying they do have the power to do so and should inform any administrator that they could use it.

 

Even if miraculously they did decide against it Rangers would do and Airdrie Utd and buy a club struggling to survive and relocate etc etc etc.

 

Quite so. Maybe they'll buy HMFC?

[Francis Albert]

I'm not sure the SFA would have the power to inforce such a law - I could be wrong but this may be a bit outwith their remit.

 

The SFA is an association and the members of that association are free to agree rules that apply to the members of that association, as long as they don't conflict with any law of the land. Refusing membership to (or if accepted imposing sanctions on) a club owned or controlled by someone previously owning or controlling a club which failed to meet its financial commitments to another member would not I think conflict with any law.

 

If Vlad was doing a Whyte and was about to renege on debts owed to the OF or the SFA itself then I think the "Vlad disqualification" rule would already be in place.

[Drylaw Hearts]

it is difficult to determine without full disclosure whether the fault or blame lies with Rangers and/or the SFA however the awarding of their UEFA license for this season when they appear to have failed to meet the criteria and failure to pay the previously agreed small tax bill of ?2.8M + penalty by June 30th 2011 should have triggered their UEFA license being suspended. There needs to be an inquest into why that didn't happen as it affected Celtic, Hearts, Dundee Utd & Kilmarnock who would all have been bumped up a notch if Rangers had been refused entry.

 

It seems our processes and transparency issues are inadequate to say the least.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

But isn't the ?2.8million bill being appealed also ? Or was it just the fines that were tagged on with the bill ?

[Charlie-Brown]

The SFA/SPL have allowed Motherwell to continue as normal despite them not settling debts and this includes debts to former players.

 

You surely don't expect them to decide against allowing a new Rangers in at the bottom ?

 

Even if miraculously they did decide against it Rangers would do and Airdrie Utd and buy a club struggling to survive and relocate etc etc etc.

 

The SFA can decide to who they allow to have SFA membership however their are literally hundreds of non-league senior, junior and amatuer clubs that have SFA membership so even if Rangers newco or Craig Whyte was denied then gaining control of another club remains a possibility.

 

It is the SFL and their 30 member clubs who vote and decide on any new member applications (assuming newco can get SFA memebrship & criteria).

 

The SPL could vote to directly admit a newco Rangers into the SPL however that would be a fairly staggering and controversial decision if they go down that route. Of course all SPL members must first meet SFA membership criteria.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

But isn't the ?2.8million bill being appealed also ? Or was it just the fines that were tagged on with the bill ?

 

 

The ?2.8m was a separate bill outside of the main tax notice. IIRC, that has been settled.

[Charlie-Brown]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

But isn't the ?2.8million bill being appealed also ? Or was it just the fines that were tagged on with the bill ?

 

Only the penalty part could be appealed - they'd already accepted liability for the unpaid tax + interest on the small bill yet they still didn't and haven't as yet paid it. It remains under arrest. The non payment of the tax part was enough to put Rangers into contravening the terms of their UEFA license.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Only the penalty part could be appealed - they'd already accepted liability for the unpaid tax + interest on the small bill yet they still didn't and haven't as yet paid it. It remains under arrest. The non payment of the tax part was enough to put Rangers into contravening the terms of their UEFA license.

 

 

I stand corrected.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Motherwell didn't form a new company. They came out of administration with a CVA. Motherwell FC maintained their SFA affiliation.

 

I realise this. But they still didn't pay what they were due.

 

If they authorities didn't punish a current company how can they possibly use it as a reason not to allow a new company into the league ?

 

I don't but I am saying they do have the power to do so and should inform any administrator that they could use it.

 

If Rangers go bust they'll quite rightly start again at in the bottom division

 

Quite so. Maybe they'll buy HMFC?

 

Maybe.

[jamboinglasgow]

This thread used to be amazing now its tedious.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

This thread used to be amazing now its tedious.

 

 

I wonder why? It's been well trolled eh?

[Drylaw Hearts]

This thread used to be amazing now its tedious.

 

This thread was full or ifs and buts and when these ifs and buts where question all we got was more ifs and buts.

 

I want Rangers to go to the wall and disappear forever but this will just not happen and no amount of ifs and buts will change that.

 

 

Regardless of the outcome of the tribunal Rangers will be playing in some form at some level within the 4 Scottish Divisions.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

This thread was full or ifs and buts and when these ifs and buts where question all we got was more ifs and buts.

 

I want Rangers to go to the wall and disappear forever but this will just not happen and no amount of ifs and buts will change that.

 

 

Regardless of the outcome of the tribunal Rangers will be playing in some form at some level within the 4 Scottish Divisions.

 

 

A lot of said "ifs and buts" were generated by Craig Whyte after the BBC documentary and his subsequent attempts to 'clear the air'.

 

I'm still waiting for a hack to ask him the old simple question - "You're a billionaire. Why don't you just pay the tax bill yourself?".

[Drylaw Hearts]

A lot of said "ifs and buts" were generated by Craig Whyte after the BBC documentary and his subsequent attempts to 'clear the air'.

 

I'm still waiting for a hack to ask him the old simple question - "You're a billionaire. Why don't you just pay the tax bill yourself?".

 

I'm still waiting on a hack asking VR "You're a billionaire...Why don't you just pay the players wages yourself?".

[jamboinglasgow]

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I'm still waiting on a hack asking VR "You're a billionaire...Why don't you just pay the players wages yourself?".

 

 

He does though.

 

When he wants to....

[Charlie-Brown]

This thread was full or ifs and buts and when these ifs and buts where question all we got was more ifs and buts.

 

I want Rangers to go to the wall and disappear forever but this will just not happen and no amount of ifs and buts will change that.

 

 

Regardless of the outcome of the tribunal Rangers will be playing in some form at some level within the 4 Scottish Divisions.

 

If the existing company is liquidated then it will not be Rangers 1873 fleshers haugh and all that. It will be a new football club and a new company. No 5 stars no 54 titles, no ECWC winners etc etc

[Drylaw Hearts]

If the existing company is liquidated then it will not be Rangers 1873 fleshers haugh and all that. It will be a new football club and a new company. No 5 stars no 54 titles, no ECWC winners etc etc

 

And ?

 

What difference will that make to you or me ?

[Charlie-Brown]

And ?

 

What difference will that make to you or me ?

 

Well plenty if the existing company is liquidated - I can remind all the obnoxious supremacist Gers fans that I know that their history is gone and the club they supported is defunct like Third Lanark. Any newco Rangers would have zero trophy wins and zero history at least to begin with. That's got to be a pleasing prospect if it plays out that way surely!

[Hagar the Horrible]

The critical point in all of this is that although no decision has yet taken place regarding Rangers Administration/Insolvency etc. There is no statement from the SFA/SPL to outline a what if scenario that would not only cover the Rangers situation but that of any other club in a similar fashion.

 

These questions should be directed to Stuart Ray-gun and Kneel Downcast-her.

 

1. How many points does a club in the SPL automatically get deducted for entering admin, and does this apply to Rangers?

2. How many additional points do they get if they stay in admin until next season?

3. If an SPL club does go into admin for even a few moments does that exclude them from qualification for Europe?

4. If they exit admin without a CVA how many points get deducted.

5. If they go into Liquidation:

a) what happens to their points total?

what happens to the remaining league fixtures?

c) will Rangers have to reapply for league status and start again from the third division should they be successful.

6. Is Craig Whyte a fit and proper person to be in charge of a current/future football club (as per BBC documentary)?

7. Will a Newco Rangers be allowed just to take over all the points accumulated by current Rangers as well as their assets.

8. But the big question is why has nobody asked these questions in the first place and had clarity from the SPL/SFA?

 

a fait-accompli at the last minute under the guise of how good it is for the game as a whole (TV rights). For the sake of total integrity I would hope that Rangers be treated the same way as Gretna/ Livi and Dundee as appropriate. Otherwise the SPL might survive but the game as a whole will die a slow painful death. A full system reboot is required, we will not receive the same mercy as Rangers Will get from the football Authorities. I would hope that all decent football fans show the total disgust for any decision other than to punish Rangers should they lose the tax case.

 

Has anybody asked these questions and if not can somebody?

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

The SFA will have to act within the UEFA guidelines.

 

 

 

You really think the SFA should dig through the finances of everyone of their member clubs and make sure they're doing everything 100% correct and by the book ?

 

 

I know. I made that exact point about a week ago either on this thread or another.

No, they shouldn't have to, but when it becomes obvious that a member club has acted dishonestly or dishonourably then they should act against that club. Even if they get away with their EBTs they still acted dishonourably and Whyte is saying he might (and no doubt he is intending to) take Rangers into administration even if they win the case, so that they can start again without paying their, unsecured, creditors.

[hmfc_steve]

<br />And ?<br /><br />What difference will that make to you or me ?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

I am under the impression that you are intentionally being obtuse

[Jambosr1985]

Careful now roly polys mate will outfox you.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

<br /><br /><br />

 

I am under the impression that you are intentionally being obtuse

I think DH is playing the devil's advocate and is doing a good job of keeping this thread alive. Today, at least, everyone else seems to be more or less in agreement so there'd hardly be any posts on the thread otherwise. Well done DH

[Paolo]

I think DH is playing the devil's advocate and is doing a good job of keeping this thread alive. Today, at least, everyone else seems to be more or less in agreement so there'd hardly be any posts on the thread otherwise. Well done DH

No they don't.

 

[DETTY29]

The critical point in all of this is that although no decision has yet taken place regarding Rangers Administration/Insolvency etc. There is no statement from the SFA/SPL to outline a what if scenario that would not only cover the Rangers situation but that of any other club in a similar fashion.

 

These questions should be directed to Stuart Ray-gun and Kneel Downcast-her.

 

1. How many points does a club in the SPL automatically get deducted for entering admin, and does this apply to Rangers?

2. How many additional points do they get if they stay in admin until next season?

3. If an SPL club does go into admin for even a few moments does that exclude them from qualification for Europe?

4. If they exit admin without a CVA how many points get deducted.

5. If they go into Liquidation:

a) what happens to their points total?

what happens to the remaining league fixtures?

c) will Rangers have to reapply for league status and start again from the third division should they be successful.

6. Is Craig Whyte a fit and proper person to be in charge of a current/future football club (as per BBC documentary)?

7. Will a Newco Rangers be allowed just to take over all the points accumulated by current Rangers as well as their assets.

8. But the big question is why has nobody asked these questions in the first place and had clarity from the SPL/SFA?

 

a fait-accompli at the last minute under the guise of how good it is for the game as a whole (TV rights). For the sake of total integrity I would hope that Rangers be treated the same way as Gretna/ Livi and Dundee as appropriate. Otherwise the SPL might survive but the game as a whole will die a slow painful death. A full system reboot is required, we will not receive the same mercy as Rangers Will get from the football Authorities. I would hope that all decent football fans show the total disgust for any decision other than to punish Rangers should they lose the tax case.

 

Has anybody asked these questions and if not can somebody?

I'm pretty sure the SFA/SPL CEOs would prefer to be given multiple choice options before answering.

 

Option answer D at each will be 'can we just wait and see and come back later'

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

I'm pretty sure the SFA/SPL CEOs would prefer to be given multiple choice options before answering.

 

Option answer D at each will be 'can we just wait and see and come back later'

From all quarters that seems to be the attitude, do nothing, say nothing, and maybe the problem will go away!

[portobellojambo1]

From all quarters that seems to be the attitude, do nothing, say nothing, and maybe the problem will go away!

 

Is it not possible they (the SFA) have been requested not to say anything, as any statements they were to make before the tribunal decision could influence decisions Rangers might be considering. Or equally, is it not possible they know they cannot say anything that would benefit Rangers going forward, so are saying nothing.

 

I don't think this problem is going to go away, and I don't think there is any simple get out for Rangers. If there was a get out, or if HMRC's case wasn't strongly based I think this whole thing would have fizzled out long ago.

 

And as been mentioned before the exclusion of Rangers gives the other clubs a chance to restructure the SPL, and everything attached to it, like never before. Yet there are one or two on here saying we cannot live without Rangers, we need them for this, that or the other thing. Is it not hypocritical to complain about everything being in place to benefit the OF, yet when an opportunity comes along to change things people start then saying "but we need Rangers" or suchlike.

 

It isn't often you get a chance to boot a "giant' in the balls, when that chance comes along it should be grasped, the other clubs shouldn't cower back in fear unless they are willing to admit they are subservient at the same time.

[Charlie-Brown]

The rules as they current apply are quite clear

 

Upon an insolvency event then under rules laid out in the SPL handbook a club is immediately docked 10 points. If they remain in administration then they are docked another 10 points at the beginning of each new season applicable. The SPL have some discretionary power to increase points deduction and/or other sanctions depending on circumstances.

 

To exit 'administration' then a company needs it's creditors to vote 75% in favour of a settlement (usually x pence in the pound) to agree a Creditors Voluntary Agreement and te company exits administration. If that happens then that will be the end of the matter.

 

However as Rangers will potentially owe anything up to ?50M to HMRC then unless they can get some or all of it excluded from the list of creditors then they are unlikely to be able to get a 75% vote to exit administration. HMRC never vote in favour of CVA's - their policy is tax is not a debt it is an obligation and must be paid therefore they always vote against.

 

Under normal circumstances the administration period lasts a year however it can be further extended for a period on request by the main creditors. after this period if there is still no CVA then the company is wound up and it's assets liquidated. Rangers FC would cease to exist.

 

The other option is for Rangers to try to sell or transfer all of their major assets ie stadium & players into a new company. However this has complications. League membership, SFA membership and Player registrations are not transferrable in this way. A newco faces the challenges of getting new SFA membership, getting players to sign & register with them, getting accepted into the SPL or SFL. Under normal circumstances when a football club is wound up it ceases to exist and is expelled from the League (Airdrieonians & Gretna being 2 recent examples)

 

Under normal circumstances any new football club would have to apply to join the SFL and begin in Divison 3.

 

If Rangers experience an insolvency event this season then unless they can soldier on and exit administration we are into unchartered teritory as far as the SPL is concerned. They would have to make up new rules and create precedents to prevent Rangers being demoted and/or expelled.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

The rules as they current apply are quite clear

 

 

The SPL have some discretionary power to increase points deduction and/or other sanctions depending on circumstances.

 

To exit 'administration' then a company needs it's creditors to vote 75% in favour of a settlement (usually x pence in the pound) to agree a Creditors Voluntary Agreement and te company exits administration. If that happens then that will be the end of the matter.

 

However as Rangers will potentially owe anything up to ?50M to HMRC then unless they can get some or all of it excluded from the list of creditors then they are unlikely to be able to get a 75% vote to exit administration. HMRC never vote in favour of CVA's - their policy is tax is not a debt it is an obligation and must be paid therefore they always vote against.

 

Under normal circumstances the administration period lasts a year however it can be further extended for a period on request by the main creditors. after this period if there is still no CVA then the company is wound up and it's assets liquidated. Rangers FC would cease to exist.

 

The other option is for Rangers to try to sell or transfer all of their major assets ie stadium & players into a new company. However this has complications. League membership, SFA membership and Player registrations are not transferrable in this way. A newco faces the challenges of getting new SFA membership, getting players to sign & register with them, getting accepted into the SPL or SFL. Under normal circumstances when a football club is wound up it ceases to exist and is expelled from the League (Airdrieonians & Gretna being 2 recent examples)

 

Under normal circumstances any new football club would have to apply to join the SFL and begin in Divison 3.

 

If Rangers experience an insolvency event this season then unless they can soldier on and exit administration we are into unchartered teritory as far as the SPL is concerned. They would have to make up new rules and create precedents to prevent Rangers being demoted and/or expelled.

 

Your post is full of contradictions. As you have said there is plenty of room for 'discretion' to be applied by the SPL/SFA in how Rangers emerge from a period of administration, and there are a number of ways that can be done aside from liquidation.

 

While as a Hearts supporter I'd like to see them hit as hard as absolutely possible a lot of the musings on the internet are more along the lines of a celtic supporters wish list than based on informed opinions.

 

Celtic supporters would be better spending their time on their clubs troubles.

 

Us as Hearts supporters probably should spend our time on our own club's issues e.g. wages, stadia etc

[Das Root]

Your post is full of contradictions. As you have said there is plenty of room for 'discretion' to be applied by the SPL/SFA in how Rangers emerge from a period of administration, and there are a number of ways that can be done aside from liquidation.

 

While as a Hearts supporter I'd like to see them hit as hard as absolutely possible a lot of the musings on the internet are more along the lines of a celtic supporters wish list than based on informed opinions.

 

Celtic supporters would be better spending their time on their clubs troubles.

 

Us as Hearts supporters probably should spend our time on our own club's issues e.g. wages, stadia etc

 

 

 

I'm sure we can multi-task.

[Boof]

A larger percentage from a smaller pot may be not be that much different to a smaller percentage of a larger pot.

 

So very little net difference to Hearts...and you still won't see that as a good thing?

 

Without Rangers the majority of the money would go to Celtic.

 

Not if the remaining 11 clubs grasped the opportunity to make some positive changes to the way Scottish football is run - the 11-1 voting system for starters.

[Drylaw Hearts]

So very little net difference to Hearts...and you still won't see that as a good thing?

 

It didn't say it was good or bad.

 

I won't make any real difference imo.

 

Not if the remaining 11 clubs grasped the opportunity to make some positive changes to the way Scottish football is run - the 11-1 voting system for starters.

 

But as Celtic will continue to win the SPL so they'll still get the most prize money and tv money etc etc.

 

You also have to take into consideration the ?100,000 or so that some teams will lose due to no Rangers fans once or twice a season.

 

I just don't think the demise of Rangers will make that much difference for the short period they'd be out the top flight.

[Charlie-Brown]

Your post is full of contradictions. As you have said there is plenty of room for 'discretion' to be applied by the SPL/SFA in how Rangers emerge from a period of administration, and there are a number of ways that can be done aside from liquidation.

 

While as a Hearts supporter I'd like to see them hit as hard as absolutely possible a lot of the musings on the internet are more along the lines of a celtic supporters wish list than based on informed opinions.

 

Celtic supporters would be better spending their time on their clubs troubles.

 

Us as Hearts supporters probably should spend our time on our own club's issues e.g. wages, stadia etc

 

Under company law the only way to exit administration is by a creditors voluntary agreement. If a CVA can not be agreed then the company is wound up and liquidated (see Airdrieonians and Gretna for 2 examples of this)

 

If Rangers cannot agree a CVA because HMRC are able to block & prevent this then they have no option but to go down the New Company route. A new company must somehow get SFA membership, League membership and sign players. new football clubs (ie new companies) have always been required to start at the bottom.

 

name us one example anywhere in western europe when a football club has folded yet immediately been reformed as a newco and able to continue in the top division? it would be unique as far as iam aware and also hugely controversial.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Is it not possible they (the SFA) have been requested not to say anything, as any statements they were to make before the tribunal decision could influence decisions Rangers might be considering. Or equally, is it not possible they know they cannot say anything that would benefit Rangers going forward, so are saying nothing.

 

I don't think this problem is going to go away, and I don't think there is any simple get out for Rangers. If there was a get out, or if HMRC's case wasn't strongly based I think this whole thing would have fizzled out long ago.

 

And as been mentioned before the exclusion of Rangers gives the other clubs a chance to restructure the SPL, and everything attached to it, like never before. Yet there are one or two on here saying we cannot live without Rangers, we need them for this, that or the other thing. Is it not hypocritical to complain about everything being in place to benefit the OF, yet when an opportunity comes along to change things people start then saying "but we need Rangers" or suchlike.

 

It isn't often you get a chance to boot a "giant' in the balls, when that chance comes along it should be grasped, the other clubs shouldn't cower back in fear unless they are willing to admit they are subservient at the same time.

It may be correct that the SFA/SPL feel they can't talk about it at this time but I doubt anything they might say could in any way predjudice the tax tribunal as that will be confind to fiscal/legal argument. I doubt anyone will be able to remember, but were they so silent with Airdrie and Gretna, or were they happy to spell out what would happen if they failled to satisfy their creditors? But the SFA appart, the press have studiously chosen to ignore what's going on in what is, potentially, the biggest story ever in Scottish football, with only one effort to make any in depth investigation, by the BBC, into Rangers, Whyte, or Murray.

Agree with you on what you say about 'we need Rangers'. How many people making comments that 'Scottish football will die without Rangers' (I don't just mean on kickback) were happy to say that Scottish football would/could flourish if the OF went to England? The sad thing is, that whatever the outcome, Scottish football will be poorer from now on, financially, and consequently, in quality, as confidence in our game being able to meet their liabilities will disappear.

Like the idea of 'boot a giant in the balls' bit

[Glamorgan Jambo]

Under company law the only way to exit administration is by a creditors voluntary agreement. If a CVA can not be agreed then the company is wound up and liquidated (see Airdrieonians and Gretna for 2 examples of this)

 

If Rangers cannot agree a CVA because HMRC are able to block & prevent this then they have no option but to go down the New Company route. A new company must somehow get SFA membership, League membership and sign players. new football clubs (ie new companies) have always been required to start at the bottom.

 

name us one example anywhere in western europe when a football club has folded yet immediately been reformed as a newco and able to continue in the top division? it would be unique as far as iam aware and also hugely controversial.

 

The most common exit route from administration is for a newco to purchase the oldco... see Crystal Palaces recent spell in admin as a good example of this. While HMRC don't usually vote for a CVA they have on many occasions witheld their objections to these. HMRC appeals against CVAs usually fail as it's obvious to the judge that less will be recovered via a liquidation.

[Charlie-Brown]

The most common exit route from administration is for a newco to purchase the oldco... see Crystal Palaces recent spell in admin as a good example of this. While HMRC don't usually vote for a CVA they have on many occasions witheld their objections to these. HMRC appeals against CVAs usually fail as it's obvious to the judge that less will be recovered via a liquidation.

 

Rangers oldco can't be purchased by a newco without a CVA - Rangers biggest secured creditor Craig Whyte will be entitled to the lions share of any sale of assets before HMRC or ordinary creditors are entitled to anything. In most other instances that taxman is owed a few million or few hundred grand , the situation we are looking at here is HMRC being owed anywhere in the region upto ?50M. If you can see how Rangers can get creditors to agree or HMRC claims excluded from the creditors list then please explain.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

The most common exit route from administration is for a newco to purchase the oldco... see Crystal Palaces recent spell in admin as a good example of this. While HMRC don't usually vote for a CVA they have on many occasions witheld their objections to these. HMRC appeals against CVAs usually fail as it's obvious to the judge that less will be recovered via a liquidation.

The thing is, Whyte's plan is to get in and out of administration without paying the unsecured creditors anything and set up a new company with only, say, ?25m debt and assets of around ?50-60m. Whyte isn't interested in a CVA, as, unless everyone would be happy to accept a few pence in the pound, and HMRC definitely won't, his plan will go totally pear shaped. I think where HMRC has had to appeal against a CVA you might find they held less than 75% of the debt, which they wouldn't should Rangers lose their appeal against the big bill.

Just had a thought, as Whyte's ?18m is secured debt, will he be included in any vote for a CVA? If not, if the remaining total of unsecured debt isn't more than ?10m, HMRC, with ?2.8m tax due, and uncontested by Rangers, would have over 25% of the debt so could block a CVA. Add Bain and co, who would probably want all the money they are suing for, and the overall unsecured debt will have to be much higher still to get a CVA. As I said, just a thought, but it would make it all the more imperative for Whyte to get away with a pre-pack administration.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

Rangers oldco can't be purchased by a newco without a CVA - Rangers biggest secured creditor Craig Whyte will be entitled to the lions share of any sale of assets before HMRC or ordinary creditors are entitled to anything. In most other instances that taxman is owed a few million or few hundred grand , the situation we are looking at here is HMRC being owed anywhere in the region upto ?50M. If you can see how Rangers can get creditors to agree or HMRC claims excluded from the creditors list then please explain.

 

In the cases of Portsmouth and Leeds HMRCs objections were either withdrawn or ruled against by a judge i.e. they were initially sufficient to block or delay the CVAs. The situation with rangers is a long way from being as clear cut as celtic minded bloggers want

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

In the cases of Portsmouth and Leeds HMRCs objections were either withdrawn or ruled against by a judge i.e. they were initially sufficient to block or delay the CVAs. The situation with rangers is a long way from being as clear cut as celtic minded bloggers want

I doubt many people on here, or anywhere else for that matter, think it's clear cut, but anyone who thinks Rangers aren't in deep trouble are as deluded as any of the Celtic bloggers. Rangers have much bigger problems than any previous clubs going into administration, not just because of the incredible debt they have, but because they have been charged by HMRC of cheating and will not be looked on favourably by any judge should they have problems gettign a CVA. Whyte's unsavoury reputation won't help them either, especially as a leading government official has said he was involved in 'criminality'.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

I doubt many people on here, or anywhere else for that matter, think it's clear cut, but anyone who thinks Rangers aren't in deep trouble are as deluded as any of the Celtic bloggers. Rangers have much bigger problems than any previous clubs going into administration, not just because of the incredible debt they have, but because they have been charged by HMRC of cheating and will not be looked on favourably by any judge should they have problems gettign a CVA. Whyte's unsavoury reputation won't help them either, especially as a leading government official has said he was involved in 'criminality'.

 

Rangers are in serious trouble that's for sure.

 

I don't think though you can make the leap to say that there's a strong likelihood of a judge ruling in any particular direction though. Yes Rangers, along with several other clubs, are being sued by HMRC over their use of EBTs. As for the civil servant who went on the BBC documentary accusing Whyte of criminality (acting as a shadow director while disqualified IIRC) he's (a) not what I'd call a leading government official and if he's still a gov't employee he's likely to be in serious trouble.

 

Nobody knows much about Whyte. I think it's clear that this sort of situation is one he perhaps specialises in i.e. dismantling distressed companies and gaining value himself by selling the remaining business on. Personally I doubt he'll be chairman of Huns FC in 2 years time.

[Hagar the Horrible]

Rangers are in serious trouble that's for sure.

 

I don't think though you can make the leap to say that there's a strong likelihood of a judge ruling in any particular direction though. Yes Rangers, along with several other clubs, are being sued by HMRC over their use of EBTs. As for the civil servant who went on the BBC documentary accusing Whyte of criminality (acting as a shadow director while disqualified IIRC) he's (a) not what I'd call a leading government official and if he's still a gov't employee he's likely to be in serious trouble.

 

Nobody knows much about Whyte. I think it's clear that this sort of situation is one he perhaps specialises in i.e. dismantling distressed companies and gaining value himself by selling the remaining business on. Personally I doubt he'll be chairman of Huns FC in 2 years time.

 

 

I dont think that civil servant will be in any bother as I doubt there will be a legal complaint to either the BBC or the service from CW. I bet they would welcome a court case as CW might incriminate himself for being a director while barred, BUT who knows for sure, as on the other hand in his favour why did the bank/SDM not investigate him as a fit and proper person to take ownership of a football club during their own due diligence? and why has the SFA/SPL not got some sort of risk assesment made, surely they must have their own disclosure procedures in place, otherwise why bother with a rule? they cant be that incompetent can they?

 

 

 

Cant wait for all this to come out in the wash, its a win/win situation. I love this thread

[jambopompey]

The critical point in all of this is that although no decision has yet taken place regarding Rangers Administration/Insolvency etc. There is no statement from the SFA/SPL to outline a what if scenario that would not only cover the Rangers situation but that of any other club in a similar fashion.

 

These questions should be directed to Stuart Ray-gun and Kneel Downcast-her.

 

1. How many points does a club in the SPL automatically get deducted for entering admin, and does this apply to Rangers?

2. How many additional points do they get if they stay in admin until next season?

3. If an SPL club does go into admin for even a few moments does that exclude them from qualification for Europe?

4. If they exit admin without a CVA how many points get deducted.

5. If they go into Liquidation:

a) what happens to their points total?

what happens to the remaining league fixtures?

c) will Rangers have to reapply for league status and start again from the third division should they be successful.

6. Is Craig Whyte a fit and proper person to be in charge of a current/future football club (as per BBC documentary)?

7. Will a Newco Rangers be allowed just to take over all the points accumulated by current Rangers as well as their assets.

8. But the big question is why has nobody asked these questions in the first place and had clarity from the SPL/SFA?

 

a fait-accompli at the last minute under the guise of how good it is for the game as a whole (TV rights). For the sake of total integrity I would hope that Rangers be treated the same way as Gretna/ Livi and Dundee as appropriate. Otherwise the SPL might survive but the game as a whole will die a slow painful death. A full system reboot is required, we will not receive the same mercy as Rangers Will get from the football Authorities. I would hope that all decent football fans show the total disgust for any decision other than to punish Rangers should they lose the tax case.

 

Has anybody asked these questions and if not can somebody?

 

 

to be fair to the SFA and SPL i think they have to say nothing until the outcome of the case is reached, as one thing it could be seen as influencing the court on any punishments to be handed out on it.

 

I would be very surprised if they're has not been some informal talks on how to go forward on different outcomes

[IMA MAROON]

No, they shouldn't have to, but when it becomes obvious that a member club has acted dishonestly or dishonourably then they should act against that club. Even if they get away with their EBTs they still acted dishonourably and Whyte is saying he might (and no doubt he is intending to) take Rangers into administration even if they win the case, so that they can start again without paying their, unsecured, creditors.

 

If that happened, I reckon all the SPL clubs will put pressure on the SPL board and rally round Rangers like they would any other club that went into administration and Rangers will be fine.

[world_3]

If that happened, I reckon all the SPL clubs will put pressure on the SPL board and rally round Rangers like they would any other club that went into administration and Rangers will be fine.

 

What kind of a fantasy land do you live in? Do you seriously think that other SPL clubs would rally round us if we go bust?

 

Out of interest, what would be your attitude if Celtic went into admin? You'd be hoping that we all rallied round them and Celtic would be fine? Yeah, would you bollox.

 

I hope and expect that Vlad will tell Rangers and the SFA to GTF and vote against any nice easy plan to help them out. Whether any other SPL team has the balls to do the same is open to question.

[Thunderstruck]

What kind of a fantasy land do you live in? Do you seriously think that other SPL clubs would rally round us if we go bust?

 

Out of interest, what would be your attitude if Celtic went into admin? You'd be hoping that we all rallied round them and Celtic would be fine? Yeah, would you bollox.

 

I hope and expect that Vlad will tell Rangers and the SFA to GTF and vote against any nice easy plan to help them out. Whether any other SPL team has the balls to do the same is open to question.

 

It's a plausible argument.

 

Celtic's existence without its arch-enemy would have to be called into question. So it's not unimaginable that their attendances would dwindle.

 

TV rights would quickly become worthless

 

Some SPL clubs depend on the OF for a revenue boost through their visits and the TV income so "turkeys not voting for Christmas" comes to mind.

 

My concern is that the lack of an SPL home for them, some of the Rangers support will find their way into Tynecastle to support what they view as their "wee cousins". It happens already - the Police identified a number of known Rangers fans in the vicinity of John Wilson "that night in May".

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Rangers are in serious trouble that's for sure.

 

I don't think though you can make the leap to say that there's a strong likelihood of a judge ruling in any particular direction though. Yes Rangers, along with several other clubs, are being sued by HMRC over their use of EBTs. As for the civil servant who went on the BBC documentary accusing Whyte of criminality (acting as a shadow director while disqualified IIRC) he's (a) not what I'd call a leading government official and if he's still a gov't employee he's likely to be in serious trouble.

 

Nobody knows much about Whyte. I think it's clear that this sort of situation is one he perhaps specialises in i.e. dismantling distressed companies and gaining value himself by selling the remaining business on. Personally I doubt he'll be chairman of Huns FC in 2 years time.

Wasn't saying that a judge would rule in any particular direction but, if he was thinking of ruling against a party who have more than 25% of the debt, he'd surely take into account the standing of the business in administration. If a judge was inclined to use his discretion and rule in favour of Rangers against any creditor who has more than 25% of the debt, to allow a CVA, he'd be swayed by the integrity of the directors, their past track record, how the club got into the state they are in, have they acted in an honest and honourable way? Have they been upfront with everyone? Have they deliberately created the situation? Will the creditors be treated fairly with a CVA? Would it be good for the community? The last being the only one that could, perhaps, be seen in Rangers' favour. A judge when ruling against HMRC would have to decide if it was in the public interest to do so, which he no doubt did in the examples you gave. Whyte has made it clear that he has plans to get out of administration without paying the unsecured creditors a penny, do you think any judge, anywhere, would consider it in the public interest to rule in favour of him?

Like you, I doubt Whyte will be their chairman, or even a shareholder, in 2 years time. Win or lose, he'll head for the hills with a nice profit or his original stake safely in his greasy hands. Whatever the outcome, Scottish football will lose out heavily.

[Francis Albert]

As an indication of how hard ball HMRC are playing, I received a statement yesterday telling me that on the basis of my tax return I owed them ?0.13 which was due on 31/1/11 and ?0.12 due on 31/7/11, and that interest and penalties may apply.

 

Should I seek bankruptcy protection?