The Gasman Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 it wont mater once in Admin that goes away as well Rangers NewCo and bobs your uncle no europe for 3 seasons though and 10 points deduction. There will only be a Rangers NewCo if they go into Liquidation, and in that case there would be no club to deduct ten points from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 That's the first time I've seen mention that the "small" tax bill is aparently still outstanding. Other sources have said that the small bill has now been paid, but that Rangers submitted a late appeal against it, possibly to cover their backsides against accusations that they should not have been granted a UEFA License for this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Other sources have said that the small bill has now been paid, but that Rangers submitted a late appeal against it, possibly to cover their backsides against accusations that they should not have been granted a UEFA License for this season. Why bother paying the ?2.8 Million when they plan to go into administration soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beijingandrew Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It will be such an anti climax if Rangers win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Its not true that the Small tax case has been paid, as the rules state that you dont have to pay any tax until any dispute has been settled, but they will at point X have to pay it. and in full ASAP. but I would assume that Rangers have this money ring fenced already. As for the appeal of the big tax case HMRC will appeal any decision however if the TAX man wins then they will start prcoeding to obtain their money with immediate effect, they dont have to wait until the outcome of any appeal from Rangers as if Rangers win then the tax man rebates the money afterwards. but by then it might be too late, plus Whyte has indicated they wont appeal. The Bain hearing will be settled out of court this week similar to the McIntrye case one would expect, unless either side feels so strongly against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tolbooth Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Mon the tax man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Its not true that the Small tax case has been paid, as the rules state that you dont have to pay any tax until any dispute has been settled, but they will at point X have to pay it. and in full ASAP. but I would assume that Rangers have this money ring fenced already. The arrested ?2.3M was already in a bank suspense account, out of the hands of RFC and was due to automatically be transferred to HMRC around 8th/9th Dec. RFC would have had to petition a court (Sherrif or Court of Session) to have that action stopped. There is no evidence that they took such a step. Even if they had managed to stop the transfer, then the funds would still be in the suspense account. Any Administrator or Liquidator would still have to apply to the court to have the funds transferred back to the club's accounts, but I think that HMRC would have a strong case to block such a move given the time scales involved and what could be viewed as the delaying tactics adopted by RFC to prevent the timely release of the funds. If RFC are successful with their appeal then HMRC would refund the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 The arrested ?2.3M was already in a bank suspense account, out of the hands of RFC and was due to automatically be transferred to HMRC around 8th/9th Dec. RFC would have had to petition a court (Sherrif or Court of Session) to have that action stopped. There is no evidence that they took such a step. Even if they had managed to stop the transfer, then the funds would still be in the suspense account. Any Administrator or Liquidator would still have to apply to the court to have the funds transferred back to the club's accounts, but I think that HMRC would have a strong case to block such a move given the time scales involved and what could be viewed as the delaying tactics adopted by RFC to prevent the timely release of the funds. If RFC are successful with their appeal then HMRC would refund the money. All of this is true but added to that is the regular tax bill which they still have to pay once the disspute has been settled, but that will be due by the end of March normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebeto Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Its not true that the Small tax case has been paid, as the rules state that you dont have to pay any tax until any dispute has been settled, but they will at point X have to pay it. and in full ASAP. but I would assume that Rangers have this money ring fenced already. As for the appeal of the big tax case HMRC will appeal any decision however if the TAX man wins then they will start prcoeding to obtain their money with immediate effect, they dont have to wait until the outcome of any appeal from Rangers as if Rangers win then the tax man rebates the money afterwards. but by then it might be too late, plus Whyte has indicated they wont appeal. The Bain hearing will be settled out of court this week similar to the McIntrye case one would expect, unless either side feels so strongly against it. If the tax man wins the case but Rangers want to appeal they still have to pay the full amount to HMRC and they hold the money untill the outcome of the appeal is heard. If Rangers win the appeal HMRC return the the cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritchies75 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 STV: Hearing in ?49m tax case against Rangers expected to conclude today http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/294104-hearing-in-49m-tax-case-against-rangers-expected-to-conclude/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The out come will be in April, but I would expect it to be leaked, Follow swallow if Rangers have won, or from Brendanstreet if they have lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samster Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 And we even get a couple of mentions in the most recent blog post. The writer making the point that none of the mainstream media say anything about this case but Vlad gets it tight on an almost daily basis. www.rangerstaxcase.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzbomb Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 If i understand correctly, the annoying thing about all this is that if Craig whyte sends rfc down they don't actually pay out ?49m? Fair enough they would need to reapply to the league, which I've no doubt would be accepted, but, that being the case, would they actually be any worse off than they are at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeno Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 If i understand correctly, the annoying thing about all this is that if Craig whyte sends rfc down they don't actually pay out ?49m? Fair enough they would need to reapply to the league, which I've no doubt would be accepted, but, that being the case, would they actually be any worse off than they are at the moment? I think its more to do with the "shame" of a massive club like Rangers having to do this and also the very dangerous precedent it sets within our game. Hopefully the just go shit out he box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 If i understand correctly, the annoying thing about all this is that if Craig whyte sends rfc down they don't actually pay out ?49m? Fair enough they would need to reapply to the league, which I've no doubt would be accepted, but, that being the case, would they actually be any worse off than they are at the moment? Is that acting in the utmost good faith though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzbomb Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I wouldn't think so.. Is that acting in the utmost good faith though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I think its more to do with the "shame" of a massive club like Rangers having to do this and also the very dangerous precedent it sets within our game. Hopefully the just go shit out he box Yeah ... whatever ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 And we even get a couple of mentions in the most recent blog post. The writer making the point that none of the mainstream media say anything about this case but Vlad gets it tight on an almost daily basis. www.rangerstaxcase.com Yup I see this comment too : "There is a part of me that feels sorry for Hearts as a club in the way the SPL have gone about the late payment of wages issue.. There does seem to be a??lets make a show of an easy target??attitude?in some have arrrsed way of suggesting..we mean business approach? What is astounding in all of this?is that down in Govan?they can be seen to have sherriffs officers turn up arrest large sums of money for unpaid tax?have clubs chase them for payment installments?have law firms take them to court for unpaid money?have an elephant (large tax bill) in the room that no one wants to talk about?be told the new owner was a disqulaified director?which brings into question the fit and proper person question?.and yet the SPL have taken no steps that we are aware to call an investigation on this member club? Even if there is nothing the SPL can do to change the situation?the minimum they should be doing is calling them to task over WTF is going on?! Vlad may not be as mad in his assertion of Bias?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 There was an interesting little "under the radar" change that took place yesterday. RFC's parent company,"The Rangers FC Group Ltd" (previously known as Wavetower), changed it's accounting date. The date was previously Jun 2011, meaning that it had to provide accounts by Jun 2012, however they brought the accounting date forward to April 2011, meaning that the accounts must now be lodged by April 2012. So what you may ask? Well the accounts, when produced will only show transactions up to April 2011, which was basically nothing. Now what happened between April and June 2011? Wavetower took over RFC in May 2011. If CW had stuck with the original accounting date of June 20111, then Wavetower's accounts would show the transaction that purchased RFC. Would the accounts show that Wavetower had a liability of say ?18M or more that they used to pay off Lloyds? Would it show who CW's backers are? We may never know. All we do know is the CW isn't known for his openness and transparency. BTW it's his birthday today ....... so many happy (tax) returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 There was an interesting little "under the radar" change that took place yesterday. RFC's parent company,"The Rangers FC Group Ltd" (previously known as Wavetower), changed it's accounting date. The date was previously Jun 2011, meaning that it had to provide accounts by Jun 2012, however they brought the accounting date forward to April 2011, meaning that the accounts must now be lodged by April 2012. So what you may ask? Well the accounts, when produced will only show transactions up to April 2011, which was basically nothing. Now what happened between April and June 2011? Wavetower took over RFC in May 2011. If CW had stuck with the original accounting date of June 20111, then Wavetower's accounts would show the transaction that purchased RFC. Would the accounts show that Wavetower had a liability of say ?18M or more that they used to pay off Lloyds? Would it show who CW's backers are? We may never know. All we do know is the CW isn't known for his openness and transparency. BTW it's his birthday today ....... so many happy (tax) returns. ... sneaky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ... sneaky. Not half!!!! He is as fly as a cage of monkeys that one! Wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him and I think some of the huns are starting to feel the same......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeno Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yeah ... whatever ... may i return the gesture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ... sneaky. And again not acting in the utmost good faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yup I see this comment too : "There is a part of me that feels sorry for Hearts as a club in the way the SPL have gone about the late payment of wages issue.. There does seem to be a??lets make a show of an easy target??attitude?in some have arrrsed way of suggesting..we mean business approach? What is astounding in all of this?is that down in Govan?they can be seen to have sherriffs officers turn up arrest large sums of money for unpaid tax?have clubs chase them for payment installments?have law firms take them to court for unpaid money?have an elephant (large tax bill) in the room that no one wants to talk about?be told the new owner was a disqulaified director?which brings into question the fit and proper person question?.and yet the SPL have taken no steps that we are aware to call an investigation on this member club? Even if there is nothing the SPL can do to change the situation?the minimum they should be doing is calling them to task over WTF is going on?! Vlad may not be as mad in his assertion of Bias?" This should be read out to Doncaster just to see him squirm as he tries to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboruss Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 This should be read out to Doncaster just to see him squirm as he tries to respond. AND the question regarding the movement of accounting dates should be highlighted.............utmost whattie? mabozz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 A guy at my work knows a Dunfermline director and the current maximum penalty is likely to be 12 points - under any circumstances. The SPL rules are completely different to that of he SFL. e.g. there is no league to demote someone to as happened with Livingston. So basically if someone can run Rangers they will continue to exist in the SPL as long as they have enough points not to get relegated. Here is a line from the Guardian re the Gretna position when it looked like they were going into administration - the administrator hadn't at this stage been appointed. An SPL spokesman said: "If an SPL club is the subject of an insolvency event, a 10-point deduction would apply immediately. Not just administration, but any insolvency event. I can't be bothered reading all 100 pages of the rules just now but quick searching key words such as deduction, expulsion, penalties, penalty, admin, indicates a maximum penalty of 10 points per season while an insolvency event is in course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 No real news, but thought I would post the latest from http://rangerstaxcase.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay B-8) Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I imagine a save our Rangers esk fundraiser would raise alot of money but there staff budgets will have to plumit a mate was telling me about Leeds when they went into admin ,the accountants realised that the club had company cars for the cleaners and a giant tropical fish tank in the managers office which had to be maintaned by a contractor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 More woe for Craig Whyte!!! http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/294269-sheriff-will-decide-if-rangers-owner-craig-whyte-has-to-pay-roofing-firm-90000/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeno Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 More woe for Craig Whyte!!! http://news.stv.tv/s...ing-firm-90000/ You'd think he might have went and found out what he was banned for after it was put to him by that bbc fellie. Ken just to make sure folk didnae think he was a right charlatan, just maybe a little bit of one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 You'd think he might have went and found out what he was banned for after it was put to him by that bbc fellie. Ken just to make sure folk didnae think he was a right charlatan, just maybe a little bit of one A "fit and proper person" right enough!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 You'd think he might have went and found out what he was banned for after it was put to him by that bbc fellie. Ken just to make sure folk didnae think he was a right charlatan, just maybe a little bit of one Maybe it's better to say nothing, and have people think you might be a charlatan, than to open your mouth under oath and confirm it....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samster Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Whyte should consider going for a bed and breakfast deal at the sherrif court for the amount of time he spends there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colingwood Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 A guy at my work knows a Dunfermline director and the current maximum penalty is likely to be 12 points - under any circumstances. The SPL rules are completely different to that of he SFL. e.g. there is no league to demote someone to as happened with Livingston. So basically if someone can run Rangers they will continue to exist in the SPL as long as they have enough points not to get relegated. Here is a line from the Guardian re the Gretna position when it looked like they were going into administration - the administrator hadn't at this stage been appointed. An SPL spokesman said: "If an SPL club is the subject of an insolvency event, a 10-point deduction would apply immediately. Not just administration, but any insolvency event. I can't be bothered reading all 100 pages of the rules just now but quick searching key words such as deduction, expulsion, penalties, penalty, admin, indicates a maximum penalty of 10 points per season while an insolvency event is in course. The term Insolvency Event covers a number of scenarios ranging from administration, which a club can emerge from and continue in its previous identity, through to liquidation/winding up, where a club ceases to exist. For Rangers to continue in its current form HMRC will need to be paid in full, not to mention other creditors. A big decision agains Rangers in the FTT will mean the end for Rangers FC. A phoenix will probably arise, maybe even more than one depending on how things play out. The phoenix Rangers will need to apply first to the SFA for membership then to either the SPL or SFL. If the SPL clubs agree the immediate re-entry of a phoenix Rangers the game in Scotland will be seen as hopelessly corrupt by the rest of the footballing world not to mention UK taxpayers. On the other hand if the phoenix has to work its way back from SFL Div 3 for example the Old Firm block on meaningful change is remmoved. There will probably be less TV money available in the short term but an even split from next season onwards would be on the cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Even more doubts on Whytes crediblity here - things do seem to stacking up against him in the crediblity stakes. QC also states that he appears to have an "Unreliability problem" with the evidence given in this particular case. Wonder what his reply to the SFA was like in their enquiry about his disqualification from being a director? http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/01/20/rangers-owner-craig-whyte-accused-over-unreliable-evidence-in-court-battle-with-roofing-firm-86908-23708472/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Root Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 So either he's as dodgy as hell or a bit of an idiot getting ripped off left and right? I wonder if he has his own room in the courts now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 So either he's as dodgy as hell or a bit of an idiot getting ripped off left and right? I wonder if he has his own room in the courts now? I would suggest the former. Looks like the accusation here is that he owns a company that had shares in another company. Instead of buying direct, he buys via this second company. Goods delivered, but then second company goes bust and can't pay bills, first company has no liability and claims it too is owed by the second company. Result - goods delivered, but nobody pays. I may of course be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I would suggest the former. Looks like the accusation here is that he owns a company that had shares in another company. Instead of buying direct, he buys via this second company. Goods delivered, but then second company goes bust and can't pay bills, first company has no liability and claims it too is owed by the second company. Result - goods delivered, but nobody pays. I may of course be wrong Is he not also in the middle of divorcing his wife? She may choose to fight nasty, and dish some dirt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
After The Watershed Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Is he not also in the middle of divorcing his wife? She may choose to fight nasty, and dish some dirt! They have been apart for a couple of years now and divorce papers lodged this year. I would be very suprised if any dirt is dished. In fact its in both interests for it not to be I'm led to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 They have been apart for a couple of years now and divorce papers lodged this year. I would be very suprised if any dirt is dished. In fact its in both interests for it not to be I'm led to believe. That's a pity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the general Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 That's a pity! you have been watching too much day time Jeremy Kyle TV lad :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay B-8) Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Genius!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Circling the wagons for the end-game perhaps? Phil Betts resigns as director and is replaced by Andrew Ellis. http://www.plus-sx.com/newsItem.html;jsessionid=7A56A3E25B8F1D65FD82597060990675?newsId=1470217 I don't know if there is anything significant in this move or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Soooperb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portobellojambo1 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Circling the wagons for the end-game perhaps? Phil Betts resigns as director and is replaced by Andrew Ellis. http://www.plus-sx.c...?newsId=1470217 I don't know if there is anything significant in this move or not. FF, Have you heard anything about a takeover of Rangers. I got an email from a Rangers shareholder, indicating that a takeover could be concluded by the end of this month. The name that was mentioned was Jim McColl (in my ignorance I had never heard of the bloke, so had to look him up on Wiki., by all accounts he is reported as the richest man in Scotland now). He apparently has personal wealth of around ?800 million, and is involved with a company called Clyde Blowers. From the content of the email it indicated Whyte was put in place temporarily, because McColl and Murray don't get on (McColl's companies apparently refused to purchase steel from Murray, and they had a huge falling out and he wouldn't buy Rangers direct from Murray as a result). The email I received said he was now ready to take over ownership and would cover the tax bill if necessary. Source of the email I received was someone at Rangers Media who has apparently been spot on any other time he has released info. No idea if it is true, was just wondering if it is something that is doing the rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovecraft Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 FF, Have you heard anything about a takeover of Rangers. I got an email from a Rangers shareholder, indicating that a takeover could be concluded by the end of this month. The name that was mentioned was Jim McColl (in my ignorance I had never heard of the bloke, so had to look him up on Wiki., by all accounts he is reported as the richest man in Scotland now). He apparently has personal wealth of around ?800 million, and is involved with a company called Clyde Blowers. From the content of the email it indicated Whyte was put in place temporarily, because McColl and Murray don't get on (McColl's companies apparently refused to purchase steel from Murray, and they had a huge falling out and he wouldn't buy Rangers direct from Murray as a result). The email I received said he was now ready to take over ownership and would cover the tax bill if necessary. Source of the email I received was someone at Rangers Media who has apparently been spot on any other time he has released info. No idea if it is true, was just wondering if it is something that is doing the rounds. Sounds like wishful thinking tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chat Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Sounds like wishful thinking tbh. Lets hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovecraft Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1256236/Property-tycoon-Andrew-Ellis-edges-ahead-way-fight-bag-Rangers.html The end of the article talking about Dave King and him being done for tax fraud in SA is very interesting "The SFA will have a role to play if and when any takeover is approved. Hampden rules now dictate any prospective director of a club has to pass a ?fit and proper person? test. They also preclude anyone who has lost a directorship of a company within five years from entering Scottish football, while no existing links are allowed with any other club." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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