HMRC Freeze Rangers Bank Accounts? Martin Bain Story (merged)

[Victorian]

must admit that i laughed at that king william house address.

 

so... they have her maj AND king billy taking a bite out their ass.

 

who next? any paramilitary groups out to them for a bob or two?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

must admit that i laughed at that king william house address.

 

so... they have her maj AND king billy taking a bite out their ass.

 

who next? any paramilitary groups out to them for a bob or two?

You mean the Unilateral Voluntary Firesale ?

[Beverley]

FF

hope you don't mind mate, but i nicked your estimations to show a couple of people the rough stats

[Victorian]

You mean the Unilateral Voluntary Firesale ?

 

that will do.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

that will do.

Not to be confused with the Unilateral Disposal of Assets of course...

[Victorian]

Not to be confused with the Unilateral Disposal of Assets of course...

 

[Hagar the Horrible]

Have I got this right then?

 

?49,000,000 "big" tax bill

?14,000,000 penalties

?2,800,000 "small" tax bill

?1,400,000 penalties

?30,000,000 debt

 

So by the time this is resolved (assuming that they lose the big case against HMRC) and other debts are included....

 

Rangers debt could be over ?100,000,000

 

Wow....!

 

 

Almost

 

?49,000,000 "big" tax bill

?14,000,000 penalties included in the ?49m

?2,800,000 "small" tax bill

?1,400,000 penalties

?30,000,000 debt,

?18,000,000 to Craig Whyte

[Hagar the Horrible]

I've made a stab at calculating the total amount that creditors could potentially be owed at the point of Insolvency. The numbers are taken from the 2010 accounts as guideline figures or just best guesstimates on my part.

 

?18M ? Assigned debt from Lloyds

?8M ? Additional Wavetower debt (New investment, accrued interest and fees)

 

?3.8M ? The other loan (Lease Creditor)

 

?3.7M ? Small Tax Bill (excludes 500K already paid)

?49M ? Large tax Bill

?2M ? additional interest on the Tax bills above for the last 6 months

?3M ? PAYE, NIC & VAT outstanding

 

?10M ? Unused portion of Season Tickets for this season (1/3 through the season)

?7.3M ? Pre-paid multi-year season tickets

?7.7M ? Rangers Bond Holders

 

?12M ? Balance of Player Contracts

?1.3M ? Total of ex directors claims

 

?2M ? Trade Creditors

 

?1M ? other creditors (e.g. joe the plumber)

 

I make that a total of ?128.8M . It?s a frightening figure.

 

The secured element is probably only the first ?26M, but I?d expect that in a hive down or newco scenario he would take on say 50% of the player contracts and pay off trade creditors as a goodwill gesture in order to secure SPL status.

 

 

And we were being critisized for trying to find a buyer with only ?30m debt

[John McClure]

?128.8 million??? let me just say that again, one hundred and twenty eight point eight million???? i am fully aware its a speculative figure but FML, 128.8 million?!? i was excited when i saw it was ?49million, but ?128.8 or there abouts, well, i think i just........... this is fantastic, hope they suffer long and hard :jbsmug:

[The Gasman]

must admit that i laughed at that king william house address.

 

so... they have her maj AND king billy taking a bite out their ass.

 

who next? any paramilitary groups out to them for a bob or two?

 

Not only's Karma a bitch, she does irony!

[Francis Albert]

This isn't paranoia. OK maybe it is. But the BBC website, which, within a few hours of the Sun's bullshit story about a winding up order trggering a fire sale of players, copied it, seems not yet to have caught onto the resumption of HMRC's tribunal hearing on the ?49m tax case.

[The Gasman]

This isn't paranoia. OK maybe it is. But the BBC website, which, within a few hours of the Sun's bullshit story about a winding up order trggering a fire sale of players, copied it, seems not yet to have caught onto the resumption of HMRC's tribunal hearing on the ?49m tax case.

 

It's disappointing FA, but what I find even more disappointing, is that it's not in the least surprising.

[dodedajambo]

I don't suppose anyone knows where the tribunal is taking place and how do you find out about what is going on at it? Is there a purposeful media black out on this issue or are the media not doing their job. I think the answer may lie somewhere between the two..

[Footballfirst]

I don't suppose anyone knows where the tribunal is taking place and how do you find out about what is going on at it? Is there a purposeful media black out on this issue or are the media not doing their job. I think the answer may lie somewhere between the two..

It is being held in private at Rangers request (they don't want their dirty linen hung out in public). The Tribunal sits in Edininburgh.

[adayinmay]

It is being held in private at Rangers request (they don't want their dirty linen hung out in public). The Tribunal sits in Edininburgh.

Has it started? And if it has, how long is it likely to take?

[Sarah O]

I hope that stinking institution dies. Oh plllleeeeeeeezzzzzeeee let it be!

 

Has it started yet?

[KillieMitch]

I know someone involved in the tribunal. It has indeed started but it's slow and Rangers keep succesfully slowing it down further - normal with such legal dealings. The 8-12 weeks before a decision is, I'm told, the minimum - end of the season very likely.

[Alannah_21]

The Rangers fans are unbearable. One at my work just goes on about how they will still be above Hearts given a penalty and how even if they got put to the 3rd division they would be SPL champions in 4 years. He doesn't even go to games FFS.

[Seymour M Hersh]

The Rangers fans are unbearable. One at my work just goes on about how they will still be above Hearts given a penalty and how even if they got put to the 3rd division they would be SPL champions in 4 years. He doesn't even go to games FFS.

 

Whilst typical bluster and arrogance of the knuckle dragging orcs. The sad thing is it's probably not that far off the mark.

[portobellojambo1]

I've made a stab at calculating the total amount that creditors could potentially be owed at the point of Insolvency. The numbers are taken from the 2010 accounts as guideline figures or just best guesstimates on my part.

 

?18M ? Assigned debt from Lloyds

?8M ? Additional Wavetower debt (New investment, accrued interest and fees)

 

?3.8M ? The other loan (Lease Creditor)

 

?3.7M ? Small Tax Bill (excludes 500K already paid)

?49M ? Large tax Bill

?2M ? additional interest on the Tax bills above for the last 6 months

?3M ? PAYE, NIC & VAT outstanding

 

?10M ? Unused portion of Season Tickets for this season (1/3 through the season)

?7.3M ? Pre-paid multi-year season tickets

?7.7M ? Rangers Bond Holders

 

?12M ? Balance of Player Contracts

?1.3M ? Total of ex directors claims

 

?2M ? Trade Creditors

 

?1M ? other creditors (e.g. joe the plumber)

 

I make that a total of ?128.8M . It?s a frightening figure.

 

The secured element is probably only the first ?26M, but I?d expect that in a hive down or newco scenario he would take on say 50% of the player contracts and pay off trade creditors as a goodwill gesture in order to secure SPL status.

 

 

 

 

 

The figures you provide above are interesting FF, and following a conversation I had with someone yesterday afternoon actually very believable. Someone who has to remain nameless, but who knows a lot more about this than I ever will was telling me something yesterday, and he suggested to me that the actual liability being talked about was nowhere near ?49 million, but in legal estimates was probably closer to ?120 million. Didn't really make sense to me at the time, in fact sounded a bit fanciful or hopeful but the way you've laid it out above it makes sense.

[adayinmay]

Apologies for the awful internet rumour type post but ...

 

I was told yesterday from an associate/friend of a former Director at Rankgers FC that he believes they will go into administration within the next 6 weeks to avoid the Tax Issue. The belief is that if the company/club are in administration before a decision is made on the Tax case then the Tax case against them will have to be dropped.

 

Does anyone know if this is a legal option for Rankgers? Can that be done?

[Francis Albert]

Whyte has already said that if they lose the tax case they may not appeal it but prefer to go into administration.

 

So I guess if they think they are going to lose it they can take the same route?

[The Gasman]

Apologies for the awful internet rumour type post but ...

 

I was told yesterday from an associate/friend of a former Director at Rankgers FC that he believes they will go into administration within the next 6 weeks to avoid the Tax Issue. The belief is that if the company/club are in administration before a decision is made on the Tax case then the Tax case against them will have to be dropped.

 

Does anyone know if this is a legal option for Rankgers? Can that be done?

 

Must admit that I'd heard a similar story / suggestion / rumour a few weeks back. The way it was explained to me was that if Whyte pulls the plug on Rangers before any ruling is made on the big tax case, that bill then dies, as it cannot then be served. Rangers could then pay the small tax bill (which as part of the takeover Whyte should have funds for) getting HMRC off their back. It would then be, relatively, easy to get a CVA from the other creditors letting them come back out of administration quickly and painlessly, with only a ten point deduction.

 

I hadn't really given it much credence at the time, as it seemed a bit simplistic, but it does seem to tie in with what you've heard.

 

Perhaps FF, or one of the other guys with a bit more knowledge could explain if this scenario is either possible or likely?

[269miles]

The figures you provide above are interesting FF, and following a conversation I had with someone yesterday afternoon actually very believable. Someone who has to remain nameless, but who knows a lot more about this than I ever will was telling me something yesterday, and he suggested to me that the actual liability being talked about was nowhere near ?49 million, but in legal estimates was probably closer to ?120 million. Didn't really make sense to me at the time, in fact sounded a bit fanciful or hopeful but the way you've laid it out above it makes sense.

 

 

For a tax bill ? How many years are HMRC going back for this ?

[adayinmay]

Must admit that I'd heard a similar story / suggestion / rumour a few weeks back. The way it was explained to me was that if Whyte pulls the plug on Rangers before any ruling is made on the big tax case, that bill then dies, as it cannot then be served. Rangers could then pay the small tax bill (which as part of the takeover Whyte should have funds for) getting HMRC off their back. It would then be, relatively, easy to get a CVA from the other creditors letting them come back out of administration quickly and painlessly, with only a ten point deduction.

 

I hadn't really given it much credence at the time, as it seemed a bit simplistic, but it does seem to tie in with what you've heard.

 

Perhaps FF, or one of the other guys with a bit more knowledge could explain if this scenario is either possible or likely?

 

I also heard that its not just 10 points deducted but also a 3 year ban from competing in Europe from FIFA and a player transfer ban.

 

Can anyone confirm this? FF?

[Dunks]

3 year euro ban is correct.

 

I understand that transfer ban only applies while the club remain in administration.

[Francis Albert]

For a tax bill ? How many years are HMRC going back for this ?

 

 

See post 1362.

[The Gasman]

I also heard that its not just 10 points deducted but also a 3 year ban from competing in Europe from FIFA and a player transfer ban.

 

Can anyone confirm this? FF?

 

That's only the case if they can't get a CVA to get out of Administration, and have to go into Liquidation - I think.

[Guest GhostHunter]

When they go into Administration, I can see them withdrawing from the SPL/SFL and going down to start again in the lower divisions of the English League.

[Paolo]

When they go into Administration, I can see them withdrawing from the SPL/SFL and going down to start again in the lower divisions of the English League.

I do hope so. They can take their Siamese twin with them.

[I.T.K]

And we were being critisized for trying to find a buyer with only ?30m debt

 

Hearts Debt = ?30million, Heart Revenue = ?8Million +/-

Rangers Debt = ?120 Million, Rangers Revenue = ?40 million +/-

 

Both debts are similar in relation to income.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

If Rangers went in to admin to avoid the tax bill, can HMRC not lobby against the new company being allowed to join any league because of the money they owed before?

[Floyd]

Hearts Debt = ?30million, Heart Revenue = ?8Million +/-

Rangers Debt = ?120 Million, Rangers Revenue = ?40 million +/-

 

Both debts are similar in relation to income.

 

Only saving grace for us is that our debts are essentially owed to one person or organisation who own the club. Would rather have that than owing HMRC to be honest.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Is Rangers revenue still 40mill anyway?

[wibble]

Hearts Debt = ?30million, Heart Revenue = ?8Million +/-

Rangers Debt = ?120 Million, Rangers Revenue = ?40 million +/-

 

Both debts are similar in relation to income.

 

Rangers biggest problem is that Whyte is owed nearly 20m. As a preferred creditor one of the ways he can get that money back is to sink the club and sell all the assets. There is no way he will walk away with nothing, so total liquidation is a real possibility.

[269miles]

That's only the case if they can't get a CVA to get out of Administration, and have to go into Liquidation - I think.

 

They have to have some kind of licence which I think they need SFA/SPL approval for. I think a lot depends on what those two bodies allow Rangers/Whyte to get away with - for the good of the game in Scotland, obviously.

[The Gasman]

They have to have some kind of licence which I think they need SFA/SPL approval for. I think a lot depends on what those two bodies allow Rangers/Whyte to get away with - for the good of the game in Scotland, obviously.

 

My understanding of it is that if they "only" go into Administration, and come back out with a CVA, they are the same Rangers, so still have all the existing memberships / licences.

 

If they go into liquidation, then Rangers in effect cease to exist, and any memberships / licences become null & void. Rangers NewCo would then have to apply for these from scratch, as they're not transferable.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

My understanding of it is that if they "only" go into Administration, and come back out with a CVA, they are the same Rangers, so still have all the existing memberships / licences.

 

If they go into liquidation, then Rangers in effect cease to exist, and any memberships / licences become null & void. Rangers NewCo would then have to apply for these from scratch, as they're not transferable.

 

Correct.

[Hagar the Horrible]

Hearts Debt = ?30million, Heart Revenue = ?8Million +/-

Rangers Debt = ?120 Million, Rangers Revenue = ?40 million +/-

 

Both debts are similar in relation to income.

 

We owe our debt to our owner, their debt is to the tax man, the later wants all his debt back now

[The Gasman]

It is being held in private at Rangers request (they don't want their dirty linen hung out in public). The Tribunal sits in Edininburgh.

 

Are we likely to hear anything formal / official, before the final determination is announced in twelve weeks+ time?

 

Or until then will we have to rely on Blogs (some of which have been fairly accurate to be fair) unless Whyte announces Administration?

[Socrates]

Am I right in thinking that the CVA process requires a 75% vote in favour, based on how much you are owed, and thus HMRC can block any CVA? Also, is it not HMRC policy to vote against any CVA where they don't get paid in full?

[The Gasman]

Am I right in thinking that the CVA process requires a 75% vote in favour, based on how much you are owed, and thus HMRC can block any CVA? Also, is it not HMRC policy to vote against any CVA where they don't get paid in full?

 

Yes(ish) but see post 1377.

 

There is a suggestion that there may be a "get out of jail card" Rangers could play by putting the Club in Administration before the big tax case is settled, which would let them wriggle out of that particular bill...

[adayinmay]

Must admit that I'd heard a similar story / suggestion / rumour a few weeks back. The way it was explained to me was that if Whyte pulls the plug on Rangers before any ruling is made on the big tax case, that bill then dies, as it cannot then be served. Rangers could then pay the small tax bill (which as part of the takeover Whyte should have funds for) getting HMRC off their back. It would then be, relatively, easy to get a CVA from the other creditors letting them come back out of administration quickly and painlessly, with only a ten point deduction.

 

I hadn't really given it much credence at the time, as it seemed a bit simplistic, but it does seem to tie in with what you've heard.

 

Perhaps FF, or one of the other guys with a bit more knowledge could explain if this scenario is either possible or likely?

As I posted earlier I had heard a similar thing to this. However Im wondering ... If Rankgers try and come out of administration and get CVA granted then the Club/Business/Organisation will still exist as the same so then HMRC can serve the papers?

[Socrates]

I don't suppose that there's anyone who posts in the thread regularly who happens to know more about the law to do with administration than we can find out from the internet, and would be willing to answer some general questions here?

[Lovecraft]

Yes(ish) but see post 1377.

 

There is a suggestion that there may be a "get out of jail card" Rangers could play by putting the Club in Administration before the big tax case is settled, which would let them wriggle out of that particular bill...

 

 

I can't imagine that is true, or there would be lots of companies doing that every couple of years.

[Footballfirst]

To clarify matters the bill won't die if Rangers just go into administration. Indeed almost the opposite will happen. The adminstrator would have the option of continuing the appeal (at a cost) or abandoning the appeal. If it is the latter, then the bill will immediately become payable, which in all likelihood will mean liquidation. It is only through the old club ceasing to exist that the bill will disappear.

[Hagar the Horrible]

As I posted earlier I had heard a similar thing to this. However Im wondering ... If Rankgers try and come out of administration and get CVA granted then the Club/Business/Organisation will still exist as the same so then HMRC can serve the papers?

 

Administration wont save them from the tax bill, if the tax man wait till they come out of admin then he can still serve the papers.

 

The only way the tax man gets hee haw is if the go into liquidation. for Rangers to survive as they are then they will either have to pay the debt to HMRC in full or somehow convince them to exept Xp in the ? (it would be easier to get peace in the middle east) Perhaps some bank will give RFC or CW a loan to the full amount and they can trade their way over the next 10 - 15 years out of trouble.

 

People keep saying the 75% of creditors part have to agree and the tax man will aslo have to agree, but the taxman in this case is the 75% creditor. Any administrators will be working to pay them back. CW will be the guaranteed acreditor and will get his ?18m back first, but where from?

 

1. The sale of players.....no negotiation in a firesale.

2. The sale of the stadium......once done there is nout left....unless CW gets the stadium in full in return for his share of the ?18m.

 

Even though we all have our own thoughts on this based on fair play, they all play by diferent rules, but who wants a club as a member that rips off all those they owe money to? and get to start again at the top debt free to run up another huge bill to buy more league titles.

[The Gasman]

To clarify matters the bill won't die if Rangers just go into administration. Indeed almost the opposite will happen. The adminstrator would have the option of continuing the appeal (at a cost) or abandoning the appeal. If it is the latter, then the bill will immediately become payable, which in all likelihood will mean liquidation. It is only through the old club ceasing to exist that the bill will disappear.

 

Thanks for this FF.

 

I did think it seemed just too easy for Rangers to dodge the big tax bill this way and, thankfully, you've confirmed that they can't.

[Charlie-Brown]

Footballfirst it is MIH lawyers that are contesting the FTT(T) so Rangers going into administration wouldn't necessarily mean the tax-bill crystalising or the Rangers appeal being dropped. the appeal might well continue and it is then down to an administrattor to decide how much if any of the tax-bill to include on the creditors list - HMRC would probably push for a majority or full percentage but it could go to the courts to decide.

[Footballfirst]

Footballfirst it is MIH lawyers that are contesting the FTT(T) so Rangers going into administration wouldn't necessarily mean the tax-bill crystalising or the Rangers appeal being dropped. the appeal might well continue and it is then down to an administrattor to decide how much if any of the tax-bill to include on the creditors list - HMRC would probably push for a majority or full percentage but it could go to the courts to decide.

 

The MIH lawyers do appear to be contesting the bill on behalf of Rangers based on Rangerstaxcase's sources, but the "big" bill is Rangers bill. If MIH chose to continue supporting the appeal with the agreement of the Adminstrator, then the Administrator is still left with the problem of selling the club's asssts with the tax liability hanging over it.

 

Remember that in administration the CW Board (and the MIH board for that matter) no longer calls the shots, it is the Administrator who will be running the club. He is not bound by the Share Purchase Agreement that currently prevents RFC taking any action with regard to the EBT case without MIH's say so.