The Gasman Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Note that Hearts accounts have carried similar indications of an ongoing investigation for the past 3 years. That may well come to an end before too long. Was that not settled with HMRC, by us paying in full, and that in turn was what created the current cash flow problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 So for those of us that don't have a clue aboit finances and shares... What does/can tgis mean??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Was that not settled with HMRC, by us paying in full, and that in turn was what created the current cash flow problems? Not to my knowledge - I believe that the recent difficulties were in paying our normal PAYE / NICs. Re the ongoing investigation, I heard a suggestion that the club believe that if there is tax to pay from previous years then it is down to the former players to pay it. If that is the case Hearts may have been paying players "Gross". I doubt that HMRC would accept that argument though. However, we can't be certain until our own accounts for 2010/11 are finally published (has to be before 31/03/12) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buba Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Nice one mate.. You're cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudiMustScore Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Trading has been suspended for the majority shareholding but minority shareholder can still trade. This is down to the hmrc dispute which affected the production of audited accounts. Apparently only a temporary blip and full audited accounts are due out soon. Rangers could eventually be forced into admin if they don't but this is highly unlikely unless craig whyte and his board allow/want it to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 So for those of us that don't have a clue aboit finances and shares... What does/can tgis mean??? No idea, where did you hear/read about tgis? I presume it's an achronism for something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I P Knightley Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Trading has been suspended for the majority shareholding but minority shareholder can still trade. This is down to the hmrc dispute which affected the production of audited accounts. Apparently only a temporary blip and full audited accounts are due out soon. Rangers could eventually be forced into admin if they don't but this is highly unlikely unless craig whyte and his board allow/want it to happen. It simply means that shares can't be traded through the PLUS exchange. If anyone wanted to buy/sell shares through private transaction, they would be able to. Effectively, it's a black mark to investors that all is not as it should be at Rangers. Their response is "Yah-boo. It doesn't matter to us because we don't want to be in your silly little gang anyway." It's actually a fair point. When you've got one guy owning 85% of the shares & the remainder in the hands of fans and individuals, it's very unlikely that there's any value to having a listing on a stock exchange; that's only valuable when you have the potential for a decent number of transactions and/or you're seeking to bring in new (professional) investors. These don't apply to rangers, nor most football clubs who are left well alone by the City. No idea, where did you hear/read about tgis? I presume it's an achronism for something? I'm hoping (but not really suspecting) that that's tongue in cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortyJambo Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 That'll be their fans boycotting the PLUS exchange then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Was that not settled with HMRC, by us paying in full, and that in turn was what created the current cash flow problems? That was widely assumed as the tax bill and lack of time to clear it evidently came as a bit of a shock however there is still some doubt. Not to my knowledge - I believe that the recent difficulties were in paying our normal PAYE / NICs. Re the ongoing investigation, I heard a suggestion that the club believe that if there is tax to pay from previous years then it is down to the former players to pay it. If that is the case Hearts may have been paying players "Gross". I doubt that HMRC would accept that argument though. However, we can't be certain until our own accounts for 2010/11 are finally published (has to be before 31/03/12) The BBC reported that the current issues were part of an ongoing situation Hearts say they have paid an outstanding tax bill in full following a threat to put the club into administration. Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs had gone to court to try to recoup the money they were owed by the Tynecastle club. But Hearts have told BBC Scotland the bill was settled in full on Tuesday. Hearts were issued with a winding-up order by HMRC in 2009 over the same case. Tuesday, 16 August 2011 18:18 UK http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14535366.stm Reporters did check with HMRC who said there were no further outstanding bills but that doesn't make things absolutely clear It all suggests to me that the impending threat is no longer impending having now arrived and has been causing trouble for the last few months but as FootballFirst points out there is still confusion. And the main reason there is still confusion is that the Scottish press have chosen to treat it as a pantomime about Ebeneezer Romanov and the poor impoverished players as opposed to taking it seriously and trying to find out what was actually going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm hoping (but not really suspecting) that that's tongue in cheek. Would have been better if I'd spelled acronym correctly. No excuses, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Sorry, moot post now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 well i never!!! the BBC managed to report this on reporting scotland in a very calm and matter of fact way. couldn't have been nicer in fact. well i'm pweased... vewy pweased. this heralds in a new era of sensible and balanced reporting upon the financial affairs of scottish football clubs. so when the next thing happens at tynecastle there will be the same sort of 'light touch' reporting. delighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 well i never!!! the BBC managed to report this on reporting scotland in a very calm and matter of fact way. couldn't have been nicer in fact. well i'm pweased... vewy pweased. this heralds in a new era of sensible and balanced reporting upon the financial affairs of scottish football clubs. so when the next thing happens at tynecastle there will be the same sort of 'light touch' reporting. deluded. Changed that for you! PS I really do get the irony, honest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarissa Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 What does this mean in practical terms? Presumably it doesnt stop them buying and selling players. It means by the end of the month the board will have to accept how deep in the brown stuff they really are. Watch out for a PR blitz to keep hoodwinking their fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 well i never!!! the BBC managed to report this on reporting scotland in a very calm and matter of fact way. couldn't have been nicer in fact. well i'm pweased... vewy pweased. this heralds in a new era of sensible and balanced reporting upon the financial affairs of scottish football clubs. so when the next thing happens at tynecastle there will be the same sort of 'light touch' reporting. delighted. Arf...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Rangers shares were trading at 12.5p before yesterday?s suspension on the Plus exchange, a figure that has been static over the past six weeks but down from a high over the past 12 months of 32.5p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The Large tax case continues next week, in private however. here we have a legal debate that depending on the outcome will mean the total and completes obliteration of one of the biggest clubs in the world. played down by the Scottish media who are in denial themselves and the world media who could not care less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Bapswent Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Rangers wont collapse or disappear. But the may potentially be financially scuppered for a long time to come. Cracking stuff. Just a shame we are not in a financial state outrselves to cherry pick over the carcass during the imminent FIRE SALE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skivingatwork Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm surprised that we've got time to discuss the woes of rangers finances and imminent fire sale given that we were told we'd be in the middle of one ourselves come January. Or do the press in scotland not use an even handed approach to reporting? (Cant post a sarcastic smiley on my mobile) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 well i never!!! the BBC managed to report this on reporting scotland in a very calm and matter of fact way. couldn't have been nicer in fact. well i'm pweased... vewy pweased. this heralds in a new era of sensible and balanced reporting upon the financial affairs of scottish football clubs. so when the next thing happens at tynecastle there will be the same sort of 'light touch' reporting. delighted. I only see the Hearts extracts from Sportscene posted on here, so I have naturally assumed that the Rangers highlights are always introduced by a smirking Rob McLean with a wee quip along the lines (up to a few weeks ago) "Rangers may have their troubles off the field but they continue to sweep all before them on it" or "Rangers may not be keeping the tax man happy but their fans have nothing to complain about)" or (more recently) "Craig Whyte admits he has forgotten why he was banned for seven years as a company director, and now Rangers seem to have forgotten how to hold onto a big lead in the SPL". Surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawaii Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I only see the Hearts extracts from Sportscene posted on here, so I have naturally assumed that the Rangers highlights are always introduced by a smirking Rob McLean with a wee quip along the lines (up to a few weeks ago) "Rangers may have their troubles off the field but they continue to sweep all before them on it" or "Rangers may not be keeping the tax man happy but their fans have nothing to complain about)" or (more recently) "Craig Whyte admits he has forgotten why he was banned for seven years as a company director, and now Rangers seem to have forgotten how to hold onto a big lead in the SPL". Surely? Traynor & Gordon on Sportsound basically swept it under the carpet last night. Seems that as nobody is buying the shares it doesn't matter was the jist I got. No mention at all about why the accounts have not been audited. Noticed today that the Daily Ranger don't even have a story about it, much less a broken crest. The communist party have got it all wrong it seems. You don't need to control the press to ensure they do what you want, it's much easier to give them a lift on your private jet and treat them to slap up meals. Scotland - the home of non-investigative journalism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connlach Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What I dont understand is why can Rangers still be interested in signing players. There really should be a stop on their spending until the outcome of the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What I dont understand is why can Rangers still be interested in signing players. There really should be a stop on their spending until the outcome of the case The argument (rightly or wrongly) is that there is no debt to HMRC, until the case is actually lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What I dont understand is why can Rangers still be interested in signing players. There really should be a stop on their spending until the outcome of the case Have it on very good authority that they need to sell before they buy or at the very least lose some people off the wage bill. Very much the same as us, not that you would know it given the press in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What I dont understand is why can Rangers still be interested in signing players. There really should be a stop on their spending until the outcome of the case If players are willing to sign contracts despite the questions marks over Rangers ability to fullfill them in forthcoming years then they're free to do so. You may think they're making a stupid mistake but it's their mistake to make and chances are Rangers will have to compensate them for the risk they're taking, Gary O'Connor is a perfect match as he also won't know how much of any contract he can honour until the resolution of a court case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If players are willing to sign contracts despite the questions marks over Rangers ability to fullfill them in forthcoming years then they're free to do so. You may think they're making a stupid mistake but it's their mistake to make and chances are Rangers will have to compensate them for the risk they're taking, Gary O'Connor is a perfect match as he also won't know how much of any contract he can honour until the resolution of a court case. Can only assume some players, O'conner or Sandaza for example, will be signing on for double the money. They have half a season left on their contracts so even if they rangers go bust after 3 months they will be quids in and have a better club on their CV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I see that Craig Whyte is back on the court list for the Court of Session today, but it is Whyte v Whyte this time. Looks like a divorce case. I wonder if Kim is looking for half his assets, i.e. half of RFC's and any tax debt http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/supreme/lists/r120110_091.htm 30 Kim Lauren Martin or Whyte, Strathallan House, Grant Road, Grantown on Spey AG Craig Thomas Whyte, Castle Grant, Grantown on Spey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I see that Craig Whyte is back on the court list for the Court of Session today, but it is Whyte v Whyte this time. Looks like a divorce case. I wonder if Kim is looking for half his assets, i.e. half of RFC's and any tax debt http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/supreme/lists/r120110_091.htm 30 Kim Lauren Martin or Whyte, Strathallan House, Grant Road, Grantown on Spey AG Craig Thomas Whyte, Castle Grant, Grantown on Spey Should make interesting reading tomorrow, if any of our lazy journalists can be bothered to report on it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarissa Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Rangers wont collapse or disappear. But the may potentially be financially scuppered for a long time to come. Cracking stuff. Just a shame we are not in a financial state outrselves to cherry pick over the carcass during the imminent FIRE SALE! Maybe Vlad could buy ibrox from them for say ?50 million - and charge them 5 or 6 million annual rent. That would put their gas at a peep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Stewart Regan, the SFA's chief executive, had publicly demanded clarification from Rangers in November concerning Whyte's previous ban on becoming a company director. The governing body confirmed on Tuesday that the club has responded to that request but that Regan would not be commenting on the substance of that reply. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9006255/Rangers-face-up-to-Ibrox-credit-crunch-as-effects-of-HMRC-tax-case-begin-to-bite.html Surely the monkeys must be speculating on this. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Stewart Regan, the SFA's chief executive, had publicly demanded clarification from Rangers in November concerning Whyte's previous ban on becoming a company director. The governing body confirmed on Tuesday that the club has responded to that request but that Regan would not be commenting on the substance of that reply. So presumably the SFA are still in the middle of sweeping this under the carpet..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Stewart Regan, the SFA's chief executive, had publicly demanded clarification from Rangers in November concerning Whyte's previous ban on becoming a company director. The governing body confirmed on Tuesday that the club has responded to that request but that Regan would not be commenting on the substance of that reply. http://www.telegraph...in-to-bite.html Because Whyte has had to come clean on his ban - but the SFA now have egg on their faces because Whyte doesn't/didn't pass the 'fit & proper test' ? Surely the monkeys must be speculating on this. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Stewart Regan, the SFA's chief executive, had publicly demanded clarification from Rangers in November concerning Whyte's previous ban on becoming a company director. The governing body confirmed on Tuesday that the club has responded to that request but that Regan would not be commenting on the substance of that reply. http://www.telegraph...in-to-bite.html Surely the monkeys must be speculating on this. . Good stuff! Who would have thought the SFA would have taken such meaningful action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Stewart Regan, the SFA's chief executive, had publicly demanded clarification from Rangers in November concerning Whyte's previous ban on becoming a company director. The governing body confirmed on Tuesday that the club has responded to that request but that Regan would not be commenting on the substance of that reply. . Dear Stuart Thank you for your recent enquiry. We have since spoken and discussed the vital role Rangers FC plays in Scottish football and the lucrative opportunuities which are available to Rangers FC outside that jurisdiction. This gives me another opportunity to thank you and your colleagues for my parting gift. Yiurs sincerely Gordon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davesmith Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If the SFA are still investigating or plan to take it further it wouldn't be appropriate to comment. Regan's comment makes me think an investigation or discliplinary panel will happen. The big difference between Rangers and Heart is that an administration would be beneficial in shedding the debts and likely to suceed. I've no doubt the second they lose this case they will use insolvency paths to come out smelling of rosies. As for players continuing to sign. Why not? At that level they will be fairly confident of picking up another club quickly without much hassle if the worst comes to the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If the SFA are still investigating or plan to take it further it wouldn't be appropriate to comment. Regan's comment makes me think an investigation or discliplinary panel will happen. The big difference between Rangers and Heart is that an administration would be beneficial in shedding the debts and likely to suceed. I've no doubt the second they lose this case they will use insolvency paths to come out smelling of rosies. As for players continuing to sign. Why not? At that level they will be fairly confident of picking up another club quickly without much hassle if the worst comes to the worst. Chance of still being chained to the club while playing 3rd Division football (As Per livi) No European football?????? could happen...And if your registration gets returned to the league you will be with 60 other guys trying to find another club which could also leave you cup tied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I see that Craig Whyte is back on the court list for the Court of Session today, but it is Whyte v Whyte this time. Looks like a divorce case. I wonder if Kim is looking for half his assets, i.e. half of RFC's and any tax debt http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/supreme/lists/r120110_091.htm 30 Kim Lauren Martin or Whyte, Strathallan House, Grant Road, Grantown on Spey AG Craig Thomas Whyte, Castle Grant, Grantown on Spey "Castle Grant" ... deary me. "Castle LookatmeIhavelotsofmoneyandnotaste" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Next week could be a bad week for RFC ...... not only with the FTT resuming ....... LORD HODGE ? D Morrison Clerk Tuesday 17th January Procedural Hearing Between 9.30am and 10.00am CA87/11 Martin Bain v The Rangers Football Club plc Balfour + Manson LLP Anderson Strathern LLP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Rangers are also starting to run out of time for getting their accounts audited and signed off. They must have them completed, and submitted to the SFA, no later than the end of March, or they will not be able to qualify for Europe. Their hearing with HMRC starts again next week, but reports are suggesting that the final outcome may not be known till April/May, as whichever side loses is expected to automatically appeal. Their stalling tactics earlier, may come back to bite them in the ass big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermit the Krog Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Next week could be a bad week for RFC ...... not only with the FTT resuming ....... LORD HODGE ? D Morrison Clerk Tuesday 17th January Procedural Hearing Between 9.30am and 10.00am CA87/11 Martin Bain v The Rangers Football Club plc Balfour + Manson LLP Anderson Strathern LLP Are Anderson Strathern representing Rangers in this case FF? I'm unsure as to how your post reads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Rangers are also starting to run out of time for getting their accounts audited and signed off. They must have them completed, and submitted to the SFA, no later than the end of March, or they will not be able to qualify for Europe. Their hearing with HMRC starts again next week, but reports are suggesting that the final outcome may not be known till April/May, as whichever side loses is expected to automatically appeal. Their stalling tactics earlier, may come back to bite them in the ass big time. I think the decision on the current hearing is not expected until April or May, and any appeal would follow that. However Whyte was previously quoted as saying he may not appeal, but instead put Rangers into administration to avoid the ongoing uncertainty and start with a clean slate. HMRC will however no doubt appeal if they lose. Meanwhile Private Eye this week notes that the failure to submit audited accounts leaves Whyte and his fellow directors open to criminal prosecution, which the Scottish media seems not to have reported. (Of course criminal prosecution is unlikely, but then so were the various sanctions (points deductions and expulsion from the league) that the media slavered over on our delayed wage payments). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beverley Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Are Anderson Strathern representing Rangers in this case FF? I'm unsure as to how your post reads. yes, they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermit the Krog Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 yes, they are Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I think the decision on the current hearing is not expected until April or May, and any appeal would follow that. I had thought the April/May included any appeal, I hadn't realised that was just for next week's hearing result. That makes it even worse for Rangers, as audited signed accounts must be with the SFA no later than 31st March, or they cannot qualify for Europe. That date may be what could force Whyte's hand.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarissa Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I had thought the April/May included any appeal, I hadn't realised that was just for next week's hearing result. That makes it even worse for Rangers, as audited signed accounts must be with the SFA no later than 31st March, or they cannot qualify for Europe. That date may be what could force Whyte's hand.... As far as I know, when the First Tier Tribunal reaches a decision, HMRC can legally demand payment of what is owed (not sure about the penalties) and any adjustment for successful appeals is made later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 What point would there be in an appeal? I reckon Whyte might just cop the ruling and pull the pin immediately. They could be back in business for next season with minimal impact. I think Whyte has just been waiting for the right moment, where he thinks the fans wont blame him enough to literally kill him. The orcs have probably accepted their fate now, so it's about the right time to call time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And so it begins!! http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/tax_tribunal_resumes_to_decide_on_rangers_case_1_2058832 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 What point would there be in an appeal? I reckon Whyte might just cop the ruling and pull the pin immediately. They could be back in business for next season with minimal impact. I think Whyte has just been waiting for the right moment, where he thinks the fans wont blame him enough to literally kill him. The orcs have probably accepted their fate now, so it's about the right time to call time. If he's confident that he can get away with administration, rather than liquidation, then I think you're right about him accepting the Tribunal's ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And so it begins!! http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/tax_tribunal_resumes_to_decide_on_rangers_case_1_2058832 That's the first time I've seen mention that the "small" tax bill is aparently still outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munch Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 That's the first time I've seen mention that the "small" tax bill is aparently still outstanding. it wont mater once in Admin that goes away as well Rangers NewCo and bobs your uncle no europe for 3 seasons though and 10 points deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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