Supporters 'chief' in trouble

[troonjambo]

You forget one important point.

 

The annual dinner appears to be one of their main fundraisers. I'm not sure how many members the WBMC has, but I'd wager the majority of attendees at that dinner are non-members.

 

Yet they contribute to WBMC funds by buying tickets for teh dinner, raffle tickets and some pretty expensive auction lots. Call me Mr Picky, but I think the WBMC is obliged to go public with an explanation of this situation.

 

interesting point TH

if you are a attendee at these events and money has actually gone missing then yes ,but as it has not i think that one would expect the club and committee to put its own procedures in order without the need for public drama .

 

on a side note in all walks of life you put trust in these things blindly TH:)

[iainmac]

The difference is this is not "private business"

 

This is criminal activity by a steward of the organisation which has seen the missappropiation of donated income in addition to other income.

 

Either the police should be involved or full openess as to why not, anything else will severly damage the bodies involved.

 

If they have nothing to hide why no police involvement/explaination?

 

You come across as if you're on some kind of crusade here. Have you never made any mistakes in your life?

 

Any criminal investigation should be a matter for the WBMC and the police - it's got hee-haw to do with you.

[Deek]

The difference is this is not "private business"

 

This is criminal activity by a steward of the organisation which has seen the missappropiation of donated income in addition to other income.

 

Either the police should be involved or full openess as to why not, anything else will severly damage the bodies involved.

 

If they have nothing to hide why no police involvement/explaination?

 

Keep it up Prancer, get into them. While you are at it, what about the JKB subscriptions. You were making plenty of noise about it on Scott Westerns site.

[Therapist]

but as it has not

 

How do you know?

[Rawrrrrrrr]

You come across as if you're on some kind of crusade here. Have you never made any mistakes in your life?

 

Any criminal investigation should be a matter for the WBMC and the police - it's got hee-haw to do with you.

 

Agreed, but there isnt any criminal investigation, simply a cover up.

 

And as for mistakes, I have never stole a large sum of money from a charitable body/trust No.

[iainmac]

Agreed, but there isnt any criminal investigation, simply a cover up.

 

And as for mistakes, I have never stole a large sum of money from a charitable body/trust No.

 

That's not the question I asked you.

 

If there isn't any criminal investigation, then the 2 parties may well have mutually arrived at that decision.

[speedbump]

You forget one important point.

 

The annual dinner appears to be one of their main fundraisers. I'm not sure how many members the WBMC has, but I'd wager the majority of attendees at that dinner are non-members.

 

Yet they contribute to WBMC funds by buying tickets for the dinner, raffle tickets and some pretty expensive auction lots. Call me Mr Picky, but I think the WBMC is obliged to go public with an explanation of this situation.

 

Great point!

[The People's Chimp]

The man misused his position and stole.

 

I cant think of any reason for not involving the police, well not least a good one.

 

And the reason for suspicions is because instead of doing what they should when they uncovered criminal activity, they seem more concerned with covering it up and ensuring the cover up remains, as opposed to ensuring the integrity of the group remains intact.

 

The thing is the guy's reputation is in tatters, and his job could well be - and should be - on the line. Is a jail sentence really going to make things any better?

[davemclaren]

It's up to the WBMC how they want to handle it in my opinion. However, there is nothing to prevent the police investigating it independently but I doubt they will.

[Deevers]

The difference is this is not "private business"

 

This is criminal activity by a steward of the organisation which has seen the missappropiation of donated income in addition to other income.

 

Either the police should be involved or full openess as to why not, anything else will severly damage the bodies involved.

 

If they have nothing to hide why no police involvement/explaination?

 

Quite simply all of this is the business of the WBMC - like it or not. The officials of that club have elected to deal with this "in house". That is their prerogative. It's not all that unusual - I've seen other instances of financial irregularity in clubs over the years where this has been the direction taken especially where there has been no loss incurred.

 

I've no axe to grind about JB one way or the other - i last spoke to him years ago in the Cross Keys and he always came across as being a like able guy who's life revolved around Hearts. The public humiliation he has received as a result of his alleged actions, and the knock on effect that this may have in respect of his professional life will be a sore one for him and would probably be puinishment enough. But that as I say is the business of the WBMC and really no one elses.

[Deek]

That's not the question I asked you.

 

If there isn't any criminal investigation, then the 2 parties may well have mutually arrived at that decision.

 

If one party decides to make no complaint against another, and if there are no independent witnesses the police will have no evidence to proceed with an investigation.

 

Its a bit like I walk up to you Prancer and slap you across the puss with no witnesses present. You decide to make no complaint.

 

But a third party hears about it and reports it to the police. They come and see you and you still decide to say nothing. Investigation grinds to a halt. Its a no brainer.

[portobellojambo1]

The man misused his position and stole.

 

I cant think of any reason for not involving the police, well not least a good one.

 

And the reason for suspicions is because instead of doing what they should when they uncovered criminal activity, they seem more concerned with covering it up and ensuring the cover up remains, as opposed to ensuring the integrity of the group remains intact.

 

 

Prancer,

 

The other day on a thread in The Shed you indicated that you went into work, and sat about doing nothing for most of the day (I cannot be bothered going looking for exact times etc), in fact spent a fair percentage on the internet, while getting paid to work.

 

Call me pedantic, but in my eyes that ranks as stealing from your employer, you were paid a full days wages for a specific number of hours you were contracted to work

 

Based on the fact it is in the public domain, i.e. on here, do you think someone on here should contact your employers, because whichever way you look at it that ranks as theft to me as well (different scenario, different amount involved, but still theft), or do you think it is possibly something we should keep our noses out of, and let your employers deal with in house.

[jambopompey]

Keep it up Prancer, get into them. While you are at it, what about the JKB subscriptions. You were making plenty of noise about it on Scott Westerns site.

 

well is he still not trying to make a case from paying his Sub for this forum and being banned and wanting money back, this member has a track history of being on the wrong and done out of whilst having not contributed for such.

As much he (prancer) can be a hole in the head you don't want he so often takes it too far, there will be members of this message board that know more but who if any of them would say anything on a message board.

christ we have had the EEN copy most of the sun word for word, i want that job, now over today it has been stated that (and i now remember that) the WB is an invite only, now from those members they decide that everything is now in order then allow it.

lets say it was the Portobello Hearts bus that was subject to this, would non members be wanting it to be all over, or do you think that they would rather it be done in house, and if they felt it then go to the polic, now i just pick Portobello form the top of my head it may have been Linlithgow/Livi/West Of Scotland as an example

[Tams bird]

Love makes people strange things. If it was all about the money why is 'the other' woman mentioned...

[troonjambo]

christ we have had the EEN copy most of the sun word for word, i want that job, n

 

i noticed that 2 you would think the EEN would want to at least pretend they done it themeselfs

[jambopompey]

Prancer,

 

The other day on a thread in The Shed you indicated that you went into work, and sat about doing nothing for most of the day (I cannot be bothered going looking for exact times etc), in fact spent a fair percentage on the internet, while getting paid to work.

 

Call me pedantic, but in my eyes that ranks as stealing from your employer, you were paid a full days wages for a specific number of hours you were contracted to work

 

Based on the fact it is in the public domain, i.e. on here, do you think someone on here should contact your employers, because whichever way you look at it that ranks as theft to me as well (different scenario, different amount involved, but still theft), or do you think it is possibly something we should keep our noses out of, and let your employers deal with in house.

 

he will say it was sarcasm, like when i questioned him on my first post on this thread, where his reply was to post on this issue, where i hope i did give a proper view of my views

[jambos are go!]

I trust none of those calling for police intervention are wife beaters or use waccy baccy and mobile phones when driving etc. There are up to 13000 Hearts fans at home games its a fair bet hundreds have a criminal past.

[Deek]

I trust none of those calling for police intervention are wife beaters

 

Wife beaters are ****, and should be strung up. No matter team what you support.

[Tynie b]

I trust none of those calling for police intervention are wife beaters or use waccy baccy and mobile phones when driving etc. There are up to 13000 Hearts fans at home games its a fair bet hundreds have a criminal past.

 

Odds are,you're probably right!!

WTF has it to with this thievin get though?

 

If there was something in the paper about some Hearts supporter beating his wife, I'm sure there would be the same, Probably worse condemnation of the culprit...As it is, there isn't, so there's not!!

[ando]

didnt the WBMC give 4 grand to have a bench and some paving to be done at contalmaison .i think they do a lot of good for youth footbal aswell

John has made a big mistake but i think it is up to the commitee to deal with it. ps if you dont agree tell JB to his face no doubt he will be at tynie on saturday.

[J.T.F.Robertson]

Thats the problem, he isnt.

 

Anyone involved in finances, who has embezzled/stole as he had would be prosecuted, struck off, sacked and unlikely to get new work, WBMC took it up on themselves to decide he wouldnt face the full implications beyond the personal ones.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sanctimonious

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/windbag

[Guest]

Hearts fan or not - he chored the cash and deserves everything he gets.

[lost in leith]

You forget one important point.

 

The annual dinner appears to be one of their main fundraisers. I'm not sure how many members the WBMC has, but I'd wager the majority of attendees at that dinner are non-members.

 

Yet they contribute to WBMC funds by buying tickets for the dinner, raffle tickets and some pretty expensive auction lots. Call me Mr Picky, but I think the WBMC is obliged to go public with an explanation of this situation.

 

IIRC there are only a few members. The WBMC committee are probably the only folk in possession of the full facts, so it's up to them how they play this. They certainly shouldn't be railroaded into a statement by a rag like the Sun until they have had a chance to think it through.

 

However, whether they like it or not I think they have to say something, if only to reassure people who want to support them that their cash won't be stolen. FWIW it won't stop me supporting the dinner next year.

 

Ironic that a worthy cause gets more publicity due to one man's weakness than it would ever got for the good work that it does

[jambos are go!]

Odds are,you're probably right!!

WTF has it to with this thievin get though?

 

If there was something in the paper about some Hearts supporter beating his wife, I'm sure there would be the same, Probably worse condemnation of the culprit...As it is, there isn't, so there's not!!

 

Double standards thats what its about and sanctimonius vitriol. And its Ok to beat your wife so long as the EEN does not report it!!!

[Jamboross98]

to be fair mate i have never seen wbmc touted on hear the supporters clubs that use kickback off the top of my head are primarily my mob the w.o.s.h, Portobello, west end hearts as far as advertising buses members ect .

 

And if such a unfortunate event happened re my club it would be staying members only

 

we 2 made the sun (irvinejambo) its no fun suss think celtic park 5 down locked in for 15 minutes after final whistle that kind of fun

 

That's exactly what this reminds me of. I know John through the Federation, but I am not willing to say anything until I have heard the truth, something that journalists tend to twist as much as they can. I would trust John before any journalist or Prancer (who was, to my knowledge, also quite involved in the IrvineJambo/Creag thread).

 

Do you chase ambulances as well, Prancer?

[K1874M]

you will meet no group more degenerate ,drug taking, alcoholic ,womanising dirty sleezeballs than tabloid journalist quite literally the **** of the earth

 

Steady on now... we're not all bad.

[troonjambo]

Steady on now... we're not all bad.

 

fair point:)

[brownkg]

Another who'se debating levels reach as far as "you're a Hobo" if someone says something they disagree with.

 

Quality post.

 

Hello mr pot my point , obviously lost on you, is that you are precluding a club being a Hearts supporters club unless it is fully open to all Hearts supporters to join whereas I reckon it would be perfectly posible to have a "no23X bus shelter in muiravonside road" Hearst supporters club. It is neither in your power or remit to decide what constitutes a proper Hearts supporters club I further contend that no matter how hard they try to pretend otherwise some people are just not HEARTS supporters and hence would not get near a Hearts supporters club. Hoping this post has restored your faith in the not so hard of thinking club:107years:

[brownkg]

i think this was answered in great detail in post 217 mate

 

OK mate it is a faor cop but the point I was trying to make is in the reply to "Jambo"Robbo above.

[Robbos Right Peg]

And still the debate rages on despite the fact that it has been stated many times already that the WBMC is NOt repeat NOT a charity. The money raised by the club is used for charitable (Hearts / Youth football related) purposes. Much the same way as other supporters clubs might use the money raised for buses to away games.

 

As an aside to those irate enough to not want to make another contribution (how they do that I do not know) any debt incurred has to be made good by the members (per the constitution of the club) Therfore no-one will lose out finacially (apart from the members obviously).

[lost in leith]

And still the debate rages on despite the fact that it has been stated many times already that the WBMC is NOt repeat NOT a charity. The money raised by the club is used for charitable (Hearts / Youth football related) purposes. Much the same way as other supporters clubs might use the money raised for buses to away games.

 

As an aside to those irate enough to not want to make another contribution (how they do that I do not know) any debt incurred has to be made good by the members (per the constitution of the club) Therfore no-one will lose out finacially (apart from the members obviously).

 

Think you may be getting the wrong end of the stick here. I find it hard to believe that attendance at the dinner in February/March will be affected by this.

 

As far as I can see one guy lost the plot, made a horrible error of judgement which he will have to live with for the rest of his life, and nobody lost out (apart from him).

 

PS Enjoyed your book, and I know at least one ex pat Jambo who is going to enjoy his Xmas present as a result of my recommendation

[Hackney Hearts]

Sordid little man who seemed to think he was a big shot! I hope he is hounded out of all positions of influence within any orginisation connected in anyway to Heart of Midlothian.

 

Enough about Vlad - what do you think of Borthwick?

[Robbos Right Peg]

Think you may be getting the wrong end of the stick here. I find it hard to believe that attendance at the dinner in February/March will be affected by this.

 

As far as I can see one guy lost the plot, made a horrible error of judgement which he will have to live with for the rest of his life, and nobody lost out (apart from him).

 

PS Enjoyed your book, and I know at least one ex pat Jambo who is going to enjoy his Xmas present as a result of my recommendation

 

Yeh LiL I didn't phrase the last sentence very well. The members will not lose anything as long as the money has been repaid. If it hadn't been then that is when the 'collective responsibility' clause would kick in.

 

Thanks for the comments re the book

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Yeh LiL I didn't phrase the last sentence very well. The members will not lose anything as long as the money has been repaid. If it hadn't been then that is when the 'collective responsibility' clause would kick in.

 

Thanks for the comments re the book

 

 

Would it though?

 

I don't think money stolen would count as a debt. i.e it is quite feasible that 10k could be stolen, and unrecovered and the constitution wouldnt force the members to repay that.

 

Its a side issue though and you obviously know the constitution of WBMC in detail so it may be covered seperately.

 

Either way I still think its inappropiate there is no police involvement.

[Deevers]

Would it though?

 

I don't think money stolen would count as a debt. i.e it is quite feasible that 10k could be stolen, and unrecovered and the constitution wouldnt force the members to repay that.

 

Its a side issue though and you obviously know the constitution of WBMC in detail so it may be covered seperately.

 

Either way I still think its inappropiate there is no police involvement.

 

Since you are not a member of the WBMC your thoughts on the matter are really of little or no relevance what so ever. The officials of the particular organisation have decided to deal with the matter in house - that is their prerogative.

[Nelly Terraces]

Charity or not, the bloke misappropriated funds from a body that does charitable work:sad:.

 

That makes him a thief. Not welcome at Tynecastle:(.

[Robbos Right Peg]

Would it though?

 

I don't think money stolen would count as a debt. i.e it is quite feasible that 10k could be stolen, and unrecovered and the constitution wouldnt force the members to repay that.

 

Its a side issue though and you obviously know the constitution of WBMC in detail so it may be covered seperately.

 

Either way I still think its inappropiate there is no police involvement.

 

I was not suggesting that members would have to make good the ?10K that would have to be written off. What they would be responsible for would be outstanding debt such as an unpaid bill etc etc. No different from other clubs really (my golf club certainly have the same type of cluse anyway)

 

However it has been reported that the money has been repaid so there is no need for anyone to be raiding their piggy banks.

 

As for 'police involvement' this is entirely a matter for the club itself and despite what has been written in the papers I am confident that no decision has been taken on this so far. When it has I am sure that it will it will be the correct one and have been made after very careful consideration of the facts and not just tittle tattle in the press or message boards. So there is still a chance that you will get the pound (or should that be ?10,000) of flesh you seem to desire after all.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Charity or not, the bloke misappropriated funds from a body that does charitable work:sad:.

 

That makes him a thief. Not welcome at Tynecastle:(.

 

I hear their remaking 12 Angry men and casting in Edinburgh,now I dont think your right for the Henry Fonda character, but there are others

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Since you are not a member of the WBMC your thoughts on the matter are really of little or no relevance what so ever. The officials of the particular organisation have decided to deal with the matter in house - that is their prerogative.

 

 

Actually it isnt and thats what I am disputing

 

Their little rules do not trump the legal system. Theft is a criminal act.

 

I hope Robbo is right in that no final decision has been made, although, quotes suggest otherwise.

 

I hope they have an audit planned for the entire time borthwick has been around also.

 

Tbh they do good work, and it would be a shame if it was ruined, but I have to question whether a fund which would cover up a theft and not involve police, should be allowed to actively seek donors at tynecastle, or using the clubs name in future.

 

I don't see the need to ban him from Tynie, but I do think he should be open to the penalties his actions should (i.e Criminal, personal and professional) and at the moment the WBMC seem to be saving him from this.

[Genghis Khan]

Actually it isnt and thats what I am disputing

 

There little rules do not trump the legal system. Theft is a criminal act.

 

 

The only "criminal act" on this thread is you murdering the English language.

 

For a supposed "expert" on everything, it's embarrassing.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

The only "criminal act" on this thread is you murdering the English language.

 

For a supposed "expert" on everything, it's embarrassing.

 

 

When did theft become legal?

 

What's embarassing is those involved in this group or similar groups avoidance of the real topic, and continual attempts to deflect the issue or resort to personal abuse/character at those who disagree with them.

 

I am just waiting for the next "you're a hobo jibe"

 

Further to the topic and not your post, I would question the appropiateness of the WBMC set up if they have 10k lying about, and whether they should be becoming a registered charity/trust.

[Nelly Terraces]

I hear their remaking 12 Angry men and casting in Edinburgh,now I dont think your right for the Henry Fonda character, but there are others

 

I'll have you know I trained at RADA dahling!

[Deevers]

Actually it isnt and thats what I am disputing

 

Their little rules do not trump the legal system. Theft is a criminal act.

I hope Robbo is right in that no final decision has been made, although, quotes suggest otherwise.

 

I hope they have an audit planned for the entire time borthwick has been around also.

 

Tbh they do good work, and it would be a shame if it was ruined, but I have to question whether a fund which would cover up a theft and not involve police, should be allowed to actively seek donors at tynecastle, or using the clubs name in future.

 

I don't see the need to ban him from Tynie, but I do think he should be open to the penalties his actions should (i.e Criminal, personal and professional) and at the moment the WBMC seem to be saving him from this.

 

 

Only if a complaint is made by the person or organisation who is the victim of the theft, could the police possibly become involved in this. The WBMC have obviously decided against making any complaint to the police and dealt with the matter internally. That is their prerogative.

 

You seem to have some sort of personal grudge against the person involved - going by the vitriol in your previous posts on this matter. Is this in fact the case? In fact you appear to be almost obsessive about this, more so than anyone taking any sort of passing interest in this.

[Coco]

When did theft become legal?

 

What's embarassing is those involved in this group or similar groups avoidance of the real topic, and continual attempts to deflect the issue or resort to personal abuse/character at those who disagree with them.

 

I am just waiting for the next "you're a hobo jibe"

 

Further to the topic and not your post, I would question the appropiateness of the WBMC set up if they have 10k lying about, and whether they should be becoming a registered charity/trust.

 

If you are so angry about this why aren't you taking it to the Police/Procurator Fiscal.

 

And if you are not, then what has it got to do with you?

[Guest Dipped Flake]

Actually it isnt and thats what I am disputing

 

Their little rules do not trump the legal system. Theft is a criminal act.

 

I hope Robbo is right in that no final decision has been made, although, quotes suggest otherwise.

 

I hope they have an audit planned for the entire time borthwick has been around also.

 

Tbh they do good work, and it would be a shame if it was ruined, but I have to question whether a fund which would cover up a theft and not involve police, should be allowed to actively seek donors at tynecastle, or using the clubs name in future.

 

I don't see the need to ban him from Tynie, but I do think he should be open to the penalties his actions should (i.e Criminal, personal and professional) and at the moment the WBMC seem to be saving him from this.

 

Tried to keep out of this as I have no knowledge of what went on but you seem to be on a one man campaign to have this guy carried of in chains. For your information, if the club decides not to press charges then that is that. The committee are elected by the members to run the club and any decision they take is binding on the members. Their little rules as you call them do trump the legal system. It's the same as someone caught shoplifting. Some stores will have a policy of charging all shoplifters, some will let them off with a warning, that is their right.

The above is in no way standing up for Borthwick but, if he has returned all the money it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to go through a costly court case. You obviously feel different but you obviously know nothing about this case so can't see the point in you going on and on and on repeating your opinion.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Hello mr pot my point , obviously lost on you, is that you are precluding a club being a Hearts supporters club unless it is fully open to all Hearts supporters to join whereas I reckon it would be perfectly posible to have a "no23X bus shelter in muiravonside road" Hearst supporters club. It is neither in your power or remit to decide what constitutes a proper Hearts supporters club I further contend that no matter how hard they try to pretend otherwise some people are just not HEARTS supporters and hence would not get near a Hearts supporters club. Hoping this post has restored your faith in the not so hard of thinking club:107years:

 

So, I was correct, you are stooping to the level of calling a fellow Jambo (me - a Hearts ST holder) a hobo becuse you disagree with my opinion.

 

People such as yourself, who indulge in that sort of thing, are every bit as bad as braindead as any hobo IMO. Embarrasing that we have Jambo's who lack the intelligence to move the debate above that level.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Frankly I find it disturbing how so many people are willing to write off a 10k theft as a minor indiscretion.

 

I assume your all quite happy for those who stole all the poppy memorial boxes to pay the money back and be done with it?

[Deevers]

Frankly I find it disturbing how so many people are willing to write off a 10k theft as a minor indiscretion.

 

I assume your all quite happy for those who stole all the poppy memorial boxes to pay the money back and be done with it?

 

Assumtions on most things seem to be your stock and trade. Your assumtions on most things are clearly flawed.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Assumtions on most things seem to be your stock and trade. Your assumtions on most things are clearly flawed.

 

 

I take you don't want to answer the questions

 

Yesterday a gentleman who stole several poppy tins, was sentenced to 4 months in jail.

 

Would you be quite happy for no criminal action to be taken if he sends off a cheque today to repay the money?

 

Its a yes or no question.

[boabyarsebiscuit]

Frankly I find it disturbing how so many people are willing to write off a 10k theft as a minor indiscretion.

 

I assume your all quite happy for those who stole all the poppy memorial boxes to pay the money back and be done with it?

 

Prancer, no way do I consider what happened to be a minor indiscretion. I just can't see how someone like me demanding action on an internet messageboard achieves anything. You have very strong views on this, that much is obvious. And you are entitled to your views, maybe you're right. But this constant ranting and raving. What exactly are you hoping to achieve by it?