Dens Park Pitch Debacle

[Taffin]

29 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Genuine question, how much were the tickets for the women's game?

 

£20. Went for the cheapest ones available as weren't sure we'd definitely get down in time after work (was a Friday night game).

 

Sure it was only a couple of seasons ago when I paid about a fiver to go.

Edited April 10 by Taffin

[Taffin]

12 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

****OFF TOPIC POST****

 

It was the League Cup final. The crowd was 21k. (Although it was played between two London clubs at Molineux which seems bonkers.)

 

Tickets were £15/20 for adults, £5 for children, £7 for students and 65+. Plus group discounts.

 

The sensible comparison for that match isn't what do non-OF teams get for league matches, but what would a Hearts v Aberdeen cup final get. To which the answer is 50k+ with tickets twice as expensive.

 

While women's teams like Arsenal have had impressive 60k crowds for the few games a season they play at the Emirates (with adult tickets from £12). They also regularly play home games in front of under 4k. (E.g. crowd for Arsenal v Man City in Feb was 3,496.)

 

That isn't an attempt to do down the women's game, which has had impressive growth. But let's not pretend English women's football has already surpassed Scottish men's football in appeal and revenue.

 

It wasn't.

[Nookie Bear]

37 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

I hate to break it to you both but Scottish football just isn't popular. 

 

I was at Chelsea Vs Arsenal women's a few weeks back and it had a bigger crowd than any team outside the old firm will have all season in Scotland.

 

The media won't pay big bucks for our game as nobody outside of Scotland wants to watch it.

 

Myth.

 

Avergae WSL attendances below. I can also get tickets for the Arsenal v leicester women's match for £7.95.

 

We average twice as many as Chelsea and pay 3 times as much for the privilege. Airdrie average the same as West Ham Women.

 

1	Arsenal		35,006
2	Chelsea		10,648
3	Manchester United		9,677
4	Manchester City		7,599
5	Bristol City		7,384
6	Liverpool		4,998
7	Aston Villa		4,768
8	Tottenham Hotspur		4,210
9	Brighton & Hove Albion		3,494
10	Leicester City		2,372
11	Everton		2,169
12	West Ham United		1,897

 

[Taffin]

14 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

****OFF TOPIC POST****

 

It was the League Cup final. The crowd was 21k. (Although it was played between two London clubs at Molineux which seems bonkers.)

 

Tickets were £15/20 for adults, £5 for children, £7 for students and 65+. Plus group discounts.

 

The sensible comparison for that match isn't what do non-OF teams get for league matches, but what would a Hearts v Aberdeen cup final get. To which the answer is 50k+ with tickets twice as expensive.

 

While women's teams like Arsenal have had impressive 60k crowds for the few games a season they play at the Emirates (with adult tickets from £12). They also regularly play home games in front of under 4k. (E.g. crowd for Arsenal v Man City in Feb was 3,496.)

 

That isn't an attempt to do down the women's game, which has had impressive growth. But let's not pretend English women's football has already surpassed Scottish men's football in appeal and revenue.

 

It wasn't. It was at Stamford Bridge and the attendance was 30k+

[Taffin]

Just now, Nookie Bear said:

 

Myth.

 

Avergae WSL attendances below. I can also get tickets for the Arsenal v leicester women's match for £7.95.

 

We average twice as many as Chelsea and pay 3 times as much for the privilege. Airdrie average the same as West Ham Women.

 

1	Arsenal		35,006
2	Chelsea		10,648
3	Manchester United		9,677
4	Manchester City		7,599
5	Bristol City		7,384
6	Liverpool		4,998
7	Aston Villa		4,768
8	Tottenham Hotspur		4,210
9	Brighton & Hove Albion		3,494
10	Leicester City		2,372
11	Everton		2,169
12	West Ham United		1,897

 

 

Sorry, where is the "myth"?

[ehcaley]

Tranent v Albion Rovers pitch inspection at 3pm,not sure what hotel the Rovers entourage is biding in tho.Hope Sheriffhall isn't as bad as the Tay Bridge🇱🇻

[Japan Jambo]

20 hours ago, meister said:

Can’t see the pitch being invested in any time soon……..

 

Take it we don't have financial fair play rules?

[briever]

Raze the place to the ground and shut the club down.

[Saint Jambo]

22 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It wasn't. It was at Stamford Bridge and the attendance was 30k+

Apologies, I wrongly assumed that you were talking about the most recent game between the two.

 

But I would still contest this as evidence than Scottish men's football isn't popular in comparison to women's football as your original post suggested. Ticket prices are set significantly lower and while that game had 35k+, The majority of Chelsea's home games this season have had less than 4k in attendances. Women's football is at a point that it can get impressive crowds for show piece games (although not yet at a comparable price to top flight men's football), but not yet week-in, week-out. Scottish men's football is still significantly more popular and successful in attracting week-in, week-out attendances and revenue.

[buzzbomb1958]

22 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Take it we don't have financial fair play rules?

Of course we dont

[AlphonseCapone]

12 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

Apologies, I wrongly assumed that you were talking about the most recent game between the two.

 

But I would still contest this as evidence than Scottish men's football isn't popular in comparison to women's football as your original post suggested. Ticket prices are set significantly lower and while that game had 35k+, The majority of Chelsea's home games this season have had less than 4k in attendances. Women's football is at a point that it can get impressive crowds for show piece games (although not yet at a comparable price to top flight men's football), but not yet week-in, week-out. Scottish men's football is still significantly more popular and successful in attracting week-in, week-out attendances and revenue.

 

I'll also add that comparing raw numbers is daft given England has x10 the population. Scottish football is one of the best, if not, the best supported football in Europe per population.

[The Real Maroonblood]

18 minutes ago, briever said:

Raze the place to the ground and shut the club down.

[Taffin]

20 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

Apologies, I wrongly assumed that you were talking about the most recent game between the two.

 

But I would still contest this as evidence than Scottish men's football isn't popular in comparison to women's football as your original post suggested. Ticket prices are set significantly lower and while that game had 35k+, The majority of Chelsea's home games this season have had less than 4k in attendances. Women's football is at a point that it can get impressive crowds for show piece games (although not yet at a comparable price to top flight men's football), but not yet week-in, week-out. Scottish men's football is still significantly more popular and successful in attracting week-in, week-out attendances and revenue.

 

I'm not sure why pricing really comes into it? Something is popular, or it isn't. 

 

I could pick up an MK Dons ticket for less than I paid to watch the game in question. I don't, and others don't and I don't think they would even at a fiver.

 

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised though if the televised women's games get better viewing figures than Scottish football matches not involving the old firm. Which is what really dictates TV deals...I don't even know the women's TV commercials; do they get a better deal?

 

I only mentioned the pull of the women's game as it was being used a some example of TV companies ignoring the Scottish game. It's amply capable of drawing big crowds. I imagine the average combined attendance over a season of their league games would hold up against the Scottish game sans old firm. 

 

The bit in bold is exactly the same as Scottish football, except it's worse in Scottish football outside the old firm.  The women's FA cup final for 78k. Do you genuinely think a match not involving the old firm would manage that even if tickets were free?

Edited April 10 by Taffin

[Taffin]

3 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I'll also add that comparing raw numbers is daft given England has x10 the population. Scottish football is one of the best, if not, the best supported football in Europe per population.

 

But why is that lucrative commercially for TV companies? It isn't, in fact it probably has the opposite effect.

[SE16 3LN]

44 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Myth.

 

Avergae WSL attendances below. I can also get tickets for the Arsenal v leicester women's match for £7.95.

 

We average twice as many as Chelsea and pay 3 times as much for the privilege. Airdrie average the same as West Ham Women.

 

1	Arsenal		35,006
2	Chelsea		10,648
3	Manchester United		9,677
4	Manchester City		7,599
5	Bristol City		7,384
6	Liverpool		4,998
7	Aston Villa		4,768
8	Tottenham Hotspur		4,210
9	Brighton & Hove Albion		3,494
10	Leicester City		2,372
11	Everton		2,169
12	West Ham United		1,897

 

I thought Arsenal women play mainly at Boreham Wood which has a capacity of 4500? 
 

Happy to see women’s football doing well but its rise at the top levels has largely been on the back of the Men’s game. No problem with that either.

 

Back to the debate at hand. Dens Park and its pitch are a disgrace. They’ve had enough time to sort it out but chose not to. I know money is an issue but Falkirk were blocked from promotion because of stadium issues in the past. 
 

Dens Park makes Scottish football look bleak.

[Taffin]

I've taken this off topic, apologies.

 

My main point is Scottish Football isn't an attractive proposition and it's not because broadcasters are oppressing us. It's because the product is shite and not attractive commercially. 

 

 

Oh, and feck Dundee and their two bob pitch.

Edited April 10 by Taffin

[kila]

6 minutes ago, Taffin said:

The bit in bold is exactly the same as Scottish football, except it's worse in Scottish football outside the old firm.  The women's FA cup final for 78k. Do you genuinely think a match not involving the old firm would manage that even if tickets were free?

 

Do you not think price of tickets affects attendances in the SPFL?

 

It's the quality of stadiums and general fan experience too. A cup final at Wembley is significantly better experience than Hampden, never mind the cost of the tickets.

 

[AlphonseCapone]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

But why is that lucrative commercially for TV companies? It isn't, in fact it probably has the opposite effect.

 

Oh it isn't. But you said Scottish football isn't popular. It's incredibly popular within its target market and random raw numbers at selected English women's football isn't evidence to the contrary.

 

Scottish football might not be worth much to TV companies and if you said that at some point earlier then I apologies for jumping in half way through a conversation and missing the point. I'd still say Sky under pay given the relatively high proportion of Sky subscriptions in Scotland but unless people put pressure on Sky and the SPFL to improve things or they'll switch off then that won't change.

[RustyRightPeg]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

But why is that lucrative commercially for TV companies? It isn't, in fact it probably has the opposite effect.

 

It's way way off topic, but if those at the top of our game had any sense they'd be trying to get one of those Sky Sports Arena channels converted into a Sky Scotland channel. Show 3 or 4 x more games on it while running re-runs of classic games, behind the scenes stuff etc. 

 

The same way Sky have the EPL on an exclusive basis, they should be trying to get our game too. They won't, but that's what I'd do.

 

In response to any "who'd watch that?" questions, I'd answer more people would than those that watch the netball etc that's currently shown!  

[briever]

10 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

I'm not sure why pricing really comes into it? Something is popular, or it isn't. 

 

I could pick up an MK Dons ticket for less than I paid to watch the game in question. I don't, and others don't and I don't think they would even at a fiver.

 

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised though if the televised women's games get better viewing figures than Scottish football matches not involving the old firm. Which is what really dictates TV deals...I don't even know the women's TV commercials; do they get a better deal?

 

I only mentioned the pull of the women's game as it was being used a some example of TV companies ignoring the Scottish game. It's amply capable of drawing big crowds. I imagine the average combined attendance over a season of their league games would hold up against the Scottish game sans old firm. 

 

The bit in bold is exactly the same as Scottish football, except it's worse in Scottish football outside the old firm.  The women's FA cup final for 78k. Do you genuinely think a match not involving the old firm would manage that even if tickets were free?

 

One of the most infuriatingly daft pastimes of some is comparing Scottish football to a country with 11 times our population and the richest league in the world - regardless of what sex is playing the sport.

[Taffin]

Just now, kila said:

 

Do you not think price of tickets affects attendances in the SPFL?

 

To an extent, but not in a way that would attract longer term attendance or anything imo.

 

Just now, kila said:

It's the quality of stadiums and general fan experience too. A cup final at Wembley is significantly better experience than Hampden, never mind the cost of the tickets.

 

 

Totally agree with that...but that's on Scottish football to improve. It's not Sky's responsibility, or the fault of the women's Super League etc. If Scottish football wants a bigger slice of the pie, it needs to warrant it. The broadcasters aren't charities.

 

I mean just look at this thread, a team can't get their pitch sorted. One of the absolute fundamentals of being a football team and you've folk saying "well money is tight" as if that's some sort of justification.

[RustyRightPeg]

5 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

It's way way off topic, but if those at the top of our game had any sense they'd be trying to get one of those Sky Sports Arena channels converted into a Sky Scotland channel. Show 3 or 4 x more games on it while running re-runs of classic games, behind the scenes stuff etc. 

 

The same way Sky have the EPL on an exclusive basis, they should be trying to get our game too. They won't, but that's what I'd do.

 

In response to any "who'd watch that?" questions, I'd answer more people would than those that watch the netball etc that's currently shown!  

 

I'd also add in the Irish leagues too, **** it the more eyes on those games the better.

[henrysmithsgloves]

3 hours ago, Sigma One said:

A hint of sideboob there, will it be allowed especially if they lose out on the sponsorship on the sleeves? 😅

😂 

[Taffin]

5 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Oh it isn't. But you said Scottish football isn't popular. It's incredibly popular within its target market and random raw numbers at selected English women's football isn't evidence to the contrary.

 

It isn't popular. The basis of discussion was TV money...which is global. In global terms, in fact in UK terms...Scottish football isn't popular. 

 

It's not meant to be evidence to the contrary. It's evidence that women's football can attract crowds that dwarf those in Scottish football so clearly have a following and therefore likely warrant their TV deal (whatever that is).

 

5 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Scottish football might not be worth much to TV companies and if you said that at some point earlier then I apologies for jumping in half way through a conversation and missing the point. I'd still say Sky under pay given the relatively high proportion of Sky subscriptions in Scotland but unless people put pressure on Sky and the SPFL to improve things or they'll switch off then that won't change.

 

Do people in Scotland who subscribe to sky do so for Scottish football? I certainly didn't, I went to watch Hearts and had sky to watch other football, golf and formula 1. 

[henrysmithsgloves]

The line up for a corner kick at dens park😳

[Taffin]

9 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

It's way way off topic, but if those at the top of our game had any sense they'd be trying to get one of those Sky Sports Arena channels converted into a Sky Scotland channel. Show 3 or 4 x more games on it while running re-runs of classic games, behind the scenes stuff etc. 

 

The same way Sky have the EPL on an exclusive basis, they should be trying to get our game too. They won't, but that's what I'd do.

 

In response to any "who'd watch that?" questions, I'd answer more people would than those that watch the netball etc that's currently shown!  

 

What's in it for Sky though? They've already got a good proportion of subscribers in Scotland for Old Firm viewers and other sports. Would more people subscribe to watch that?

 

The netball rights will be buttons. I also wouldn't be surprised if a netball match didn't manage to pull better viewer numbers than say, Ross county Vs st mirren.

[Taffin]

8 minutes ago, briever said:

 

One of the most infuriatingly daft pastimes of some is comparing Scottish football to a country with 11 times our population and the richest league in the world - regardless of what sex is playing the sport.

 

I don't disagree. What other leagues get commercially is for them to negotiate with their bargaining power. Saying "oh but other leagues get more than us" is futile. It's not relevant.

[Nookie Bear]

2 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

I’d rather watch women’s netball than any SPFL match. 

 

Edgy take.

[Taffin]

10 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

I’d rather watch women’s netball than any SPFL match. 

 

[kila]

57 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

To an extent, but not in a way that would attract longer term attendance or anything imo.

 

 

Totally agree with that...but that's on Scottish football to improve. It's not Sky's responsibility, or the fault of the women's Super League etc. If Scottish football wants a bigger slice of the pie, it needs to warrant it. The broadcasters aren't charities.

 

I mean just look at this thread, a team can't get their pitch sorted. One of the absolute fundamentals of being a football team and you've folk saying "well money is tight" as if that's some sort of justification.

 

Shame Scotland will never get funds to rebuild Hampden like England did with Wembley.

 

We can blame the state of Scottish football all we like but we're always getting the short straw when it comes to UK investment.

[RustyRightPeg]

54 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

What's in it for Sky though? They've already got a good proportion of subscribers in Scotland for Old Firm viewers and other sports. Would more people subscribe to watch that?

 

The netball rights will be buttons. I also wouldn't be surprised if a netball match didn't manage to pull better viewer numbers than say, Ross county Vs st mirren.

 

They get to exclusively broadcast Scottish & Irish Football? 

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

The pitch can't be that bad football players don't want to get wet and dirty these days or get their white boots muddy

Game on 

 

[RustyRightPeg]

Anyway, it's absolutely pissing down in Dundee. Let's get the popcorn out.

[luckydug]

12 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Shame Scotland will never get funds to rebuild Hampden like England did with Wembley.

 

We can blame the state of Scottish football all we like but we're always getting the short straw when it comes to UK investment.

Hampden was due to be renovated back in the late seventies. All seated 70k modern stadium.

Then the Tories won the 1979 election and immediately scrapped the plans.

Back in the pre devolution days.

[Rockwell]

13 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

Anyway, it's absolutely pissing down in Dundee. Let's get the popcorn out.

I'm.5 mins from dens .it's not pissing down .it's very overcast but it's fair 

[Rockwell]

Just came through game has been postponed 

[RustyRightPeg]

1 minute ago, Rockwell said:

I'm.5 mins from dens .it's not pissing down .it's very overcast but it's fair 

 

Bob Malcolm and another Rangers official just posted videos on twitter showing the pitch flooded in certain areas saying it's getting worse. Are you the other side of the Tannadice equator that is rain proof?

[RENE]

Game off supposedly.

[Swanny17]

Game off.  

[Heartsfth]

3 minutes ago, luckydug said:

 

19 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Shame Scotland will never get funds to rebuild Hampden like England did with Wembley.

 

We can blame the state of Scottish football all we like but we're always getting the short straw when it comes to UK investment.

Expand  

Hampden was due to be renovated back in the late seventies. All seated 70k modern stadium.

Then the Tories won the 1979 election and immediately scrapped the plans.

Back in the pre devolution days.

 

I am sure Rangers got it scuppered as they said it wasn’t good use of public money. Basically they wanted Ibrox to be used as a national stadium 

[ehcaley]

Game off

[Mikey1874]

Sky Sports showed the pitch inspection. Ball not rolling on sections of pitch. Worked taking the covers off. 

[Sherbet]

1 minute ago, Heartsfth said:

I am sure Rangers got it scuppered as they said it wasn’t good use of public money. Basically they wanted Ibrox to be used as a national stadium 

You can't say that on here.    You've got to blame the tories!!

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Rockwell said:

Just came through game has been postponed 

[Gorgierools]

Well at least they spunked a load of cash away staying in the old course.

[jamboinglasgow]

So is the safe bet that the fixture is next Wednesday or are we going to see the SPFL trying to do a neutral venue for tomorrow?

[Mikey1874]

Good news for SPFL is may not need this game to decide 6th place. 

[twb]

Hilarity aside the whole situation with Dundee is embarrassing for the league, tinpot stuff.

[Super_Hans]

1 minute ago, jamboinglasgow said:

So is the safe bet that the fixture is next Wednesday or are we going to see the SPFL trying to do a neutral venue for tomorrow?

Looks like Dundee have confirmed it's next Wednesday.

[Lovecraft]

Where's all their money been spent?

 

Strachan making a killing?