Summer 24 Transfers - Vargas signs 5 year deal ( updated )

[DC_92]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

Funny thing opinions. Forrest has probably produced more than Oda and McKay combined. If I was looking to move any of them on (we’re probably not) it’d be Mckay. Probably the most talent of the 3 but constantly injured and terribly inconsistent 
 

You are right about the overall lack of quality in that area of the pitch though. Armstrong solves that but he’s in the £1million ballpark and I’m not convinced we have a board that would pay that, even though we could afford it and the player is worth it.

 

Oda has 5 goals to Forrest's 3 this season despite playing half the minutes.

[Jambo61]

12 hours ago, mitch41 said:

What Steven Naismith needs to find out from Savage & McKinley is what is the budget for the 24/25 season. What is available for new players wages/fees, who can he move on to free wages & add income to the Budget. Hearts will need a good sized squad of players that can hold down a place in the team when needed and above all players that thrive in a Hampden semi final or a final. This season coming is going to be the most important for quiet some time and our fans have been supportive, loyal & patient through all the ups and downs since our last major trophy in 2012. So with the 3 new players joining Hearts through freedom of contract it has brought a sense of feelings that we’re on the right road but I recon we will be needing much more.

I'd be happy if they could coach a throw in or corner! Even better an out ball when defending deep rather than an aimless punt. Maybe even teach a defender to head a ball out to his teammate rather than straight back to the opposition...let them watch a VHS of Butcher for that from 30 odd years ago! We change managers, change players and stick to the same old play!

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Jambo61 said:

I'd be happy if they could coach a throw in or corner! Even better an out ball when defending deep rather than an aimless punt. Maybe even teach a defender to head a ball out to his teammate rather than straight back to the opposition...let them watch a VHS of Butcher for that from 30 odd years ago! We change managers, change players and stick to the same old play!

This is fair comment actually . These are all things I would like to see us improve on 

[JimmyCant]

6 minutes ago, DC_92 said:

 

Oda has 5 goals to Forrest's 3 this season despite playing half the minutes.

Not just about goals scored though is it ?

 

Forrest 5 assists Oda no assists 

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Sooks said:

Totally . Now that we no longer have the millstone of huge debts around our necks , we can choose to hold on to players and only let them go before the end of their contract with us , if a team is willing or able to meet our valuation . That is how I think the club should be looking at it anyway . Instead of setting out to try and make money from player sales as a priority , I would prefer to keep the good ones for the entirety of their contract . A transfer fee should be compensation for letting a good player leave , and not an aim imo

That’s fine but taking the emotion out of it the business question is a tough one.  In Cochranes case, one year left on his current contract, if a club offers us £500k for him and we reject it because it’s too low and the window closes we have effectively decided to pay an extra £10k per week to retain Cochranes services for one more season. Is he really worth £13/14k per week to us?  The numbers get even tougher to justify if you insert Shanklands name and a £1.5m fee. We would effectively be paying circa  £35k pw for one more year. Fans would probably be up in arms if we accepted either offer. Tough one for the powers that be. 

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

That’s fine but taking the emotion out of it the business question is a tough one.  In Cochranes case, one year left on his current contract, if a club offers us £500k for him and we reject it because it’s too low and the window closes we have effectively decided to pay an extra £10k per week to retain Cochranes services for one more season. Is he really worth £13/14k per week to us?  The numbers get even tougher to justify if you insert Shanklands name and a £1.5m fee. We would effectively be paying circa  £35k pw for one more year. Fans would probably be up in arms if we accepted either offer. Tough one for the powers that be. 

Sorry , I m not sure I follow . Are you saying we are paying Cochrane 13 k per week and Shankland £35 k ? I have obviously picked you up wrongly , but I cant figure out what you mean here 

[jamboinglasgow]

35 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

You don't think after Sunday Naismith will want a few more out the door?

 

There is also Haring leaving, Fraser and Lembikisa going back from loans. 

 

I do agree that I think 2 or 3 will go on top of those players and the three you listed as sold. That would reduce our current 26 man squad squad to 17, with 3 already coming in on pre-contracts, 7 or 8 new players on top of that would not be crazy.

Edited April 25 by jamboinglasgow

[kingantti1874]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Sorry , I m not sure I follow . Are you saying we are paying Cochrane 13 k per week and Shankland £35 k ? I have obviously picked you up wrongly , but I cant figure out what you mean here 

that is effectively what they will cost if we don’t sell for those values. It it’s a bit flawed imo

 

of course, Europe  for a third straight season would be worth much more to us.  
 

can we do it without them? I’ll say this I’m not sure we’d be sitting as comfortably this season without shanks if we’d taken £4m in jan

[kingantti1874]

Just now, jamboinglasgow said:

 

There is also Haring leaving, Fraser and Lembikisa going back from loans. 

 

I do agree that I think 2 or 3 will go on top of those players and the three you listed as sold. That would reduce our squad to 15, with 3 already coming in on pre-contracts, 7 or 8 new players on top of that would not be crazy.

Sibbick as well imo, and some players like Boyce will be seeing out the final year of the contract and will play a bit part role.  

[lost in space]

3 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Sorry , I m not sure I follow . Are you saying we are paying Cochrane 13 k per week and Shankland £35 k ? I have obviously picked you up wrongly , but I cant figure out what you mean here 

He is dividing the sum we might get (e.g. £1.5M for Shankland) by 52 (weeks) and adding that to his weekly wage to show what it would cost us by not accepting transfer fee.

[chrystaf]

20 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I think we underestimate the quality of our league sometimes too . When we were playing against an Aberdeen team with Ferguson in it , was anyone shitting it ? Not me , I could see he was a very good player , but I was happy with our players in that area of the pitch and knew they could handle him . Look at what he is doing now . Same with Hickey and Doig . Possibly say the same with Irving . However when these players are at Hearts we criminally under value them as fans , and then they go up a level and do well 

 

 

 

Agree, but who would place in that category with us at the moment....Sibbick, Atkinson?

[JimmyCant]

Anyhoo. Transfers.

 

Louis Moult anyone ?

[karipidis]

15 hours ago, johnking123 said:

Forrest will be good sub. We will need a stronger squad next season.

This. It becomes tedious when someone who maybe isn’t good enough to be our first choice every week, can’t be seen as a valuable squad player? 

[jamboinglasgow]

2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Sibbick as well imo, and some players like Boyce will be seeing out the final year of the contract and will play a bit part role.  

 

I could see Sibbick and Rowles (Rowles being sold) in the 2 or 3. Would agree with Boyce staying, think he will be experience behind the scenes and stay to go into coaching.

[hmfc_liam06]

Assuming everyone under contract stays I'd be happy with us spending big on a RB, resigning Beni and maybe a loan striker happy playing 2nd fiddle to Shankland.

[OTT]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

Funny thing opinions. Forrest has probably produced more than Oda and McKay combined. If I was looking to move any of them on (we’re probably not) it’d be Mckay. Probably the most talent of the 3 but constantly injured and terribly inconsistent 
 

You are right about the overall lack of quality in that area of the pitch though. Armstrong solves that but he’s in the £1million ballpark and I’m not convinced we have a board that would pay that, even though we could afford it and the player is worth it.

 

People keep talking about Armstrong being a £1m player, but there are a few media articles hinting towards £600k, remember Savage saying we didn't pay anything near the quoted £500k for Shankland, so I think these figures get inflated a bit. 

 

I think its absolutely worth testing Killies resolve on Armstrong over thes summer. All going well we should have European group stage football to look forward to, which is a huge selling point for the club. 

 

IMO when we've spent money we've not spent it well. This is a good opportunity to spend money well. The lad is into his final 12 months, and I don't think Killie have the luxury of letting him run his contract down. Offering them £300-600k+ Forrest (if he'll go) would be an excellent piece of business for all parties - As you say, Forrest isn't bad, but I think our needs have outgrown his talent. 

Edited April 25 by OTT

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

that is effectively what they will cost if we don’t sell for those values. It it’s a bit flawed imo

 

of course, Europe  for a third straight season would be worth much more to us.  
 

can we do it without them? I’ll say this I’m not sure we’d be sitting as comfortably this season without shanks if we’d taken £4m in jan

Oh right . I think that is a bit of a crazy way to look at it tbh . Better to take their actual wages that we pay them as the barometer and the success that they contribute to imo

 

No way we would be in this position without Shankland here this season also imo 

 

See when people talk about the next level ? I disagree with the metrics set by most on here . For me the next level would be being able to qualify for European table phase football through qualifying rounds . If we get to that stage , then we are effectively moving up a level where we have an extra six million pounds each season in our budget

 

Only way we can reach that level is by keeping hold of our best players , again all just imo 

[Sooks]

6 minutes ago, chrystaf said:

Agree, but who would place in that category with us at the moment....Sibbick, Atkinson?

Cochrane , Clarke , Kent , Oda , Vargas and Hoff

[Dazo]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

People keep talking about Armstrong being a £1m player, but there are a few media articles hinting towards £600k, remember Savage saying we didn't pay anything near the quoted £500k for Shankland, so I think these figures get inflated a bit. 

 

I think its absolutely worth testing Killies resolve on Armstrong over thes summer. All going well we should have European group stage football to look forward to, which is a huge selling point for the club. 

 

IMO when we've spent money we've not spent it well. This is a good opportunity to spend money well. The lad is into his final 12 months, and I don't think Killie have the luxary of letting him run his contract down. Offering them £300-600k+ Forrest (if he'll go) would be an excellent piece of business for all parties - As you say, Forrest isn't bad, but I think our needs have outgrown his talent. 

Yep I agree it’s worth testing them but doubt Forrest would go and I wouldn’t pay £1m for him. He’d be a great signing at £600k but will always carry the risk of not performing when moving to a bigger club with a demanding fanbase. Tynecastle can be brutal sometimes. 

[OTT]

Just now, Dazo said:

Yep I agree it’s worth testing them but doubt Forrest would go and I wouldn’t pay £1m for him. He’d be a great signing at £600k but will always carry the risk of not performing when moving to a bigger club with a demanding fanbase. Tynecastle can be brutal sometimes. 

 

I'm not sure, I think its a conversation that Naismith, Forrest & Savage would need to have. IMO its as simple as emphasising his minutes are going to be non-existant if he stays. 

 

I think he won a watch getting the move to us, his actual ability level is more aligned with a midtable side (better than Livi, worse than Hearts). At 27, he's in his prime, and I think the sensible thing to do would be to go where he's going to play. If that means we top up a portion of his wages or whatever, then fine. Whatever it takes to get the deal done. Killie are also not a diddy team, so would be a good move if he can get a 3/4 year contract. 

[Chimp]

13 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

That’s fine but taking the emotion out of it the business question is a tough one.  In Cochranes case, one year left on his current contract, if a club offers us £500k for him and we reject it because it’s too low and the window closes we have effectively decided to pay an extra £10k per week to retain Cochranes services for one more season. Is he really worth £13/14k per week to us?  The numbers get even tougher to justify if you insert Shanklands name and a £1.5m fee. We would effectively be paying circa  £35k pw for one more year. Fans would probably be up in arms if we accepted either offer. Tough one for the powers that be. 

 

That's a ridiculous way of looking at it though. You can't just look at a transfer fee and translate that into wages. Where does it end with that logic? If we rejected say £4.5M for Shanks in January he'd be on the equivalent of 105K per week? That's not how it works.

 

You're saying take the emotion out of it and look at it from a business point of view, you have to to an extent but you need to remember this is a football club first and foremost, not a business. This has already been pointed out by the club.

[Sooks]

12 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Anyhoo. Transfers.

 

Louis Moult anyone ?

Not sure there is much to discuss regarding incomings until the window opens , unless we make a surprise PCA

 

 

[Dazo]

Just now, OTT said:

 

I'm not sure, I think its a conversation that Naismith, Forrest & Savage would need to have. IMO its as simple as emphasising his minutes are going to be non-existant if he stays. 

 

I think he won a watch getting the move to us, his actual ability level is more aligned with a midtable side (better than Livi, worse than Hearts). At 27, he's in his prime, and I think the sensible thing to do would be to go where he's going to play. If that means we top up a portion of his wages or whatever, then fine. Whatever it takes to get the deal done. Killie are also not a diddy team, so would be a good move if he can get a 3/4 year contract. 

If he hasn’t just signed a new deal I might agree. I’d happily just get Armstrong in and let nature take its course regarding Forrest, he’ll move on if he isn’t playing. 

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

That's a ridiculous way of looking at it though. You can't just look at a transfer fee and translate that into wages. Where does it end with that logic? If we rejected say £4.5M for Shanks in January he'd be on the equivalent of 105K per week? That's not how it works.

 

You're saying take the emotion out of it and look at it from a business point of view, you have to to an extent but you need to remember this is a football club first and foremost, not a business. This has already been pointed out by the club.

Glad it is not just me . Blows my mind that anyone would look at keeping hold of a good player in that way 

[OTT]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

If he hasn’t just signed a new deal I might agree. I’d happily just get Armstrong in and let nature take its course regarding Forrest, he’ll move on if he isn’t playing. 

 

Forrest signed a 2 year extension in January, so I think unfortunately that is something that would need to be worked round.

 

To my mind, we cannot go into big games with Forrest in our starting 11, those screen grabs which highlight his piss poor decision making boil my blood every time I see them. I do agree that £1m for Armstrong is too much, but with just a year left on his contract, I don't think Killie can demand that with a straight face. Somewhere in the region of £500k I think is about fair. Although, if they don't want to sell then we're stuck. But still worth kicking the tire and seeing what they think. McInnes won't be happy, but if we could do the deal where Forrest is going there, I think that solves his problem, solves our problem and keeps Forrest playing football at a good level. - He's not awful, its just he's not got the bottle for the big games or extra bit of quality to help us push on. 

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

Forrest signed a 2 year extension in January, so I think unfortunately that is something that would need to be worked round.

 

To my mind, we cannot go into big games with Forrest in our starting 11, those screen grabs which highlight his piss poor decision making boil my blood every time I see them. I do agree that £1m for Armstrong is too much, but with just a year left on his contract, I don't think Killie can demand that with a straight face. Somewhere in the region of £500k I think is about fair. Although, if they don't want to sell then we're stuck. But still worth kicking the tire and seeing what they think. McInnes won't be happy, but if we could do the deal where Forrest is going there, I think that solves his problem, solves our problem and keeps Forrest playing football at a good level. - He's not awful, its just he's not got the bottle for the big games or extra bit of quality to help us push on. 

I agree about Forrest I just don’t think he will mover, never know though. I don’t think they will turn down decent money. The only issue I see is us not being the only show in town. Any English clubs sniffing about and we’re one. 

[OTT]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

I agree about Forrest I just don’t think he will mover, never know though. I don’t think they will turn down decent money. The only issue I see is us not being the only show in town. Any English clubs sniffing about and we’re one. 

 

Very true, hopefully something Savage can get the ball rolling on sooner rather than later. I suppose one thing to consider is that he went to Wolves as a youngster and couldn't break through - he didn't even manage to get a loan deal to another English side, it was straight back to Scotland. Hopefully something that gives English sides pause. 

 

IIRC I seem to remember Steven Pressley talking about how few opportunities players get in England, and being seen to fail there can count against you pretty significantly in future transfers - appreciate this is hugely subjective. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Forrest goes through spells, he was red hot through winter, its not about 11 players, be idiotic to move him on.

 

Conversely though I'm not advocating moving Shankland on, there is life after him. Though he has developed his game, he is never going to be rapid, perhaps his successor will have the ability to run in behind or create in other ways. It will evolve

[Chimp]

Just now, Sooks said:

Glad it is not just me . Blows my mind that anyone would look at keeping hold of a good player in that way 

 

It's the first time I've ever seen anyone look at it that way tbh. I want to see success at Hearts and if that adds up that the best striker in Scotland was (somehow) on 35K for contributing to that next season then so be it. It's not how I would view any potential transfer fee it but if some do then fair enough.

 

Whichever way the money is used, us winning football matches and winning trophies is all matters and that's why we support the club. I'm pretty sure those in charge of the financial side of things know exactly what they're doing. 

[Sooks]

3 minutes ago, Chimp said:

Whichever way the money is used, us winning football matches and winning trophies is all matters and that's why we support the club.

A - ****ing - men 

[Rocky jamboa]

I can't see Forrest being on much wage wise and has actually had a decent season. Probably been one of our best players. Useful to keep as a squad player with the extra games we'll have next season. Saying that, we should definitely be looking at improving with better quality. 

[DC_92]

9 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Not just about goals scored though is it ?

 

Forrest 5 assists Oda no assists 

 

But they are quite important and 220 minutes per goal is significantly better than 770 minutes per goal (including cup ties against lower league teams).

 

The problem with Forrest's assists is all of them came in one cluster of games in January/February. In his first 18 months here he didn't register a single one and he hasn't had one for two months. He has played 85 games for Hearts and hasn't assisted a goal in 82 of those, so he's far from a prolific creator.

[OTT]

22 minutes ago, Rocky jamboa said:

I can't see Forrest being on much wage wise and has actually had a decent season. Probably been one of our best players. Useful to keep as a squad player with the extra games we'll have next season. Saying that, we should definitely be looking at improving with better quality. 

 

Has he? He's been present. But I'm really not sure I would describe him as that. His stats are bang average and his decision making has always been shocking. The kind of follow up thought for me, is what sort of stats would a more competent winger have. I'd wager double (goals & assists). Danny Armstrong has gotten away over double the amount of shots and his stats are considerably better. 

 

I think a big problem we've faced this season is struggling to get our shots away. We seem to overwork chances and be afraid almost to have a pop. Be interesting to hear Naismiths views on that, and how it can be changed - I don't believe for a moment he's as risk averse a manager as Robbie was, yet the problems persist. 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

Not just about goals scored though is it ?

 

Forrest 5 assists Oda no assists 

 

If only he'd managed an obvious assist or three when it really mattered in the semi

[Rods]

I have been cynical towards Forrest as his form has dipped and also Sundays performance. However next season with Europe and needing a bigger squad I still think he has a part to play. I am hoping we bring in Armstrong. 

[LarrysRightFoot]

I’ve mentioned him before but I wonder if we are looking at Matty Todd (similar to Lyall Cameron) at Dunfermline. Heard rumours that Fiorentina are interested in him. 

[kingantti1874]

39 minutes ago, Rods said:

I have been cynical towards Forrest as his form has dipped and also Sundays performance. However next season with Europe and needing a bigger squad I still think he has a part to play. I am hoping we bring in Armstrong. 

Same .  Everytime I watch him I think he be perfect for us . He’s tenacious and hard working, he’s arrogant and doesn’t fear anyone and he doesn’t panic in the final third and more often that not picks the right pass or cross and delivers it with a bit of quality .  Would happily spend a chunk of the Euro money on him, and with Dhanda and Spittal already in the bag our midfield would be transformed in terms of calmness in the final third.  Which was a major problem in Sunday. 

Edited April 25 by kingantti1874

[Jambo61]

2 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

Assuming everyone under contract stays I'd be happy with us spending big on a RB, resigning Beni and maybe a loan striker happy playing 2nd fiddle to Shankland.

Resigning Benny isn't enough to resolve our current midfield issues....another class act needed too!

[JimmyCant]

3 hours ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

You don't think after Sunday Naismith will want a few more out the door?

I’d say ‘in the door’ is what he’ll want. He’s not in control of ‘out the door’ that’s down to Savage and McKinley and the player identified as surplus (assuming they have a contract)

[RustyRightPeg]

Just now, JimmyCant said:

I’d say ‘in the door’ is what he’ll want. He’s not in control of ‘out the door’ that’s down to Savage and McKinley and the player identified as surplus (assuming they have a contract)

 

100% but his happy to get rid of list will be longer than it was two weeks ago. 

[JimmyCant]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

Not sure there is much to discuss regarding incomings until the window opens , unless we make a surprise PCA

 

 

You don’t think there is much to discuss on the summer transfer thread? What, pray tell would you like to discuss ?

[JimmyCant]

9 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

100% but his happy to get rid of list will be longer than it was two weeks ago. 

I don’t think it will be any longer than it was. I’d be surprised if there was more than 6 in the current squad he would fight with Savage to keep. Assuming of course anyone going out is replaced with a better player. Grant for example. Some would keep him but He can go right now for me because there are 2 better players coming in for his position 

Edited April 25 by JimmyCant

[BackOfTheNet]

3 hours ago, DC_92 said:

 

Oda has 5 goals to Forrest's 3 this season despite playing half the minutes.

Forrest has also fell right off after his contract extension, I’ve noticed

[Sooks]

18 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

You don’t think there is much to discuss on the summer transfer thread? What, pray tell would you like to discuss ?

Jimmy , read the posts before replying for goodness sakes . I said that until there is a hint of any incomings , then we cant really talk about that . So instead people are discussing transfer policy and where they think the squad will need improved and the effect on the team of any outbound players 

[JimmyCant]

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Jimmy , read the posts before replying for goodness sakes . I said that until there is a hint of any incomings , then we cant really talk about that . So instead people are discussing transfer policy and where they think the squad will need improved and the effect on the team of any outbound players 

The thread is full of suggestions of players we might want to take a look at it try and get. It’s what the thread is all about surely ?

[jamboinglasgow]

1 hour ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

I’ve mentioned him before but I wonder if we are looking at Matty Todd (similar to Lyall Cameron) at Dunfermline. Heard rumours that Fiorentina are interested in him. 

 

Would love to see another Scottish player go to Serie A but I would be amazed if Fiorentina are looking at a player in the Scottish Championship. But that doesn't mean he is not worth us signing, something that if he has that potential may raise him up more.

[OTT]

1 minute ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Would love to see another Scottish player go to Serie A but I would be amazed if Fiorentina are looking at a player in the Scottish Championship. But that doesn't mean he is not worth us signing, something that if he has that potential may raise him up more.

 

Juve looked at Jordan McGhee when he was with us.

 

Suspect this is about all this is - as you say, Scottish Championship. 

 

A move into the SPFL and proving what he can do would get him a good realistic move IMO. 

[GavK1012]

1 hour ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

I’ve mentioned him before but I wonder if we are looking at Matty Todd (similar to Lyall Cameron) at Dunfermline. Heard rumours that Fiorentina are interested in him. 

Hi Matty 👋 

[soonbe110]

3 hours ago, Chimp said:

 

That's a ridiculous way of looking at it though. You can't just look at a transfer fee and translate that into wages. Where does it end with that logic? If we rejected say £4.5M for Shanks in January he'd be on the equivalent of 105K per week? That's not how it works.

 

You're saying take the emotion out of it and look at it from a business point of view, you have to to an extent but you need to remember this is a football club first and foremost, not a business. This has already been pointed out by the club.

I was just pointing out what it would cost to allow players to run down their contracts if we reject any offers made for them with 12 months to go.  Not sure it’s ridiculous, it’s real money after all. If we turned down £500k for Cochrane and added to his wages for that final year that we would pay him you are talking about £700-800k  Could we find a suitable  replacement, pay their wages for a year and still have a chunk of money left out of that sum?  I suspect we quite easily could. 

Edited April 25 by soonbe110

[jamboinglasgow]

6 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Juve looked at Jordan McGhee when he was with us.

 

Suspect this is about all this is - as you say, Scottish Championship. 

 

A move into the SPFL and proving what he can do would get him a good realistic move IMO. 

 

I would caveat that with McGhee was 16 or 17 when Juve looked at him, so if the player is 18 or younger than it makes sense (Man City and Chelsea were linked this week with a player at Alloa who is on loan from St Mirren who is 17.)  Its more that Todd is almost 23 which surprises me if he was to move, but it could be that they see something they really like him in there is always a possibility.