Zander Clark vs Craig Gordon ( merged )

[A_A wehatethehibs]

10 clean sheets out of 21 is a terrific record for a goalkeeper. 
 

At this stage last season we had conceded 32 goals. We had Gordon in goal for a large part. We’ve conceded 18 this season.
 

Yes it’s a team game. Yes it’s about the unit as a whole. No member of that unit is getting dropped unless we start leaking goals. 

Edited January 13 by A_A wehatethehibs

[May98]

Craig Gordon is the best goalkeeper the club has ever had, he has one maybe two seasons left in professional football and that shouldn’t be on our bench.  

[AlimOzturk]

If it’s going to happen then it should be next season. Give them both a pre

season to fight for the gloves. 

Edited January 13 by AlimOzturk

[Fraggle]

Gordon is the better keeper, by a long distance. I was really happy, and surprised, we got Zander, but I wouldn't be giving him much longer when Gordon is fully fit. No one carries that air of confidence when the team sheets are announced. Its like you have an extra defender on the pitch, and other fans know that as well. I've been told by countless non Jambo mates that they know that if the get in behind our back line, they still have Craig to go. 

[Robbo-Jambo]

42 minutes ago, Fraggle said:

Gordon is the better keeper, by a long distance. I was really happy, and surprised, we got Zander, but I wouldn't be giving him much longer when Gordon is fully fit. No one carries that air of confidence when the team sheets are announced. Its like you have an extra defender on the pitch, and other fans know that as well. I've been told by countless non Jambo mates that they know that if the get in behind our back line, they still have Craig to go. 

Correct.

 

Play your best players in every position.

[henrysmithsgloves]

Love big handsome,but brilliant though he is, it's the twilight of his career. If Zander is ninety percent as good he will be a decent keeper 😎

[Dsjambo]

13 hours ago, 1971fozzy said:

You don’t rotate keepers.

i mind we did that with Henry Smith and Nicky Walker and it just doesn’t work. Defenders need to know their keeper inside out. We have a fantastic defensive record this season so we don’t disrupt it in my opinion. I love Craig Gordon but what a kick in the teeth to Zander if he’s dropped given his recent performances.

 

Hard to argue with any of that, I remember the Smith/Walker days as well 

[GinRummy]

3 hours ago, May98 said:

Craig Gordon is the best goalkeeper the club has ever had, he has one maybe two seasons left in professional football and that shouldn’t be on our bench.  

Or maybe none at our level. Hopefully he gets back to his best but after such a horrible injury at his age we just don’t know. 

Edited January 13 by GinRummy

[BigAlim]

Craig Gordon is in the conversation when discussing our best players after the 1960s 

 

I still think Zander deserves to keep the gloves though

[busbyfth]

16 hours ago, DS98 said:

To rescue the transfer thread. . .
 

A very unique situation. We have two very good goalies who want to go to the Euros. If both remain at Hearts this season then only one goes. If one goes on loan then both might go. 
 

From a selfish point of view we keep both. From a players point of view? They’ll want to know Naismith’s plans before Jan 31st. Who does he realistically see as undisputed number 1? Whoever it is, the other will want away. Going to the Euros is too big for them. 
 

If Zander goes away then the risk is that CG is not what he once was or breaks down again. If Craig goes out on loan? He’d probably do what he always does. Prove everyone wrong and pull of world class saves week in week out for someone else. We’d have Zander which is great if he keeps up his recent form but let’s not pretend he’s been good all season. Dundee, St Mirren, Aberdeen, Rangers. 

A very tough decision for Naisy but he’s already proved he’s not scared to make big calls. 

 

To be brutal.,.,ZC is a great shot stopper - but at crosses he is a bombscare. CG as you said might not be the same keeper and people should not forget that in the part season he played before his breaks he cost us five goals with cokk ups - he was having a very poor season (compared with the previous one where he was top class beyond belief).....basically we should stick with Clark - and hope his cross balls brainstorms dont cost us. 

[The Treasurer]

Most clubs down south tend to have a league keeper and a cup keeper. 

No reason why we don't do the same. Not perfect for the players but best scenario for the club, which, at all times, comes first 

[briever]

4 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

10 clean sheets out of 21 is a terrific record for a goalkeeper. 
 

At this stage last season we had conceded 32 goals. We had Gordon in goal for a large part. We’ve conceded 18 this season.
 

Yes it’s a team game. Yes it’s about the unit as a whole. No member of that unit is getting dropped unless we start leaking goals. 

 

We leaked goals last season because of the appalling defending.

[daveb15]

Both good keepers. Gordon has more ability for sure though and not picking him just cause Clark is in form is counterintuitive imo. If Shankland got injured and his replacement scored a few goals would we not bring him back in afterwards?
Pick your best players, always.

[DS98]

6 minutes ago, daveb15 said:

Both good keepers. Gordon has more ability for sure though and not picking him just cause Clark is in form is counterintuitive imo. If Shankland got injured and his replacement scored a few goals would we not bring him back in afterwards?
Pick your best players, always.

This is where I’m at. We’ve two genuine top class players in the squad. The season we got 3rd Gordon was just as important to us as Shankland is now. 
 

If Shanks was out for a period of time and Vargas did ok during that time (not amazing but decent). Would Shanks be kept on the bench once fit? Would the same folk say ‘Vargas hasn’t done anything wrong?’ Very doubtful. 
 

I think we’ll get 3rd no matter who plays so selfishly it’s a nice problem to debate. But play your best players. If Gordon started the season in goals I think we’d have more points than we do now. That’s really all that should matter. 

[blairdin]

2 hours ago, BigAlim said:

Craig Gordon is in the conversation when discussing our best players after the 1960s 

 

I still think Zander deserves to keep the gloves though

 

Absolutely this. 

 

Craig Gordon will finish his club career with Hearts. I reckon he has another 2 seasons in him after this, easily. 

 

However, Craig Gordon deserves the chance to finish with international football in Germany. 

 

Zander doesn't deserve to lose the gloves, and equally deserves the chance to go to Germany. 

 

If Craig can get a good loan move to get his match fitness up, I'd let him go. I actually think we owe him that if he thinks its his best chance to push for a place in the squad for Germany. McGovern continues to back up Clark. 

 

Summer, we potentially have two Scotland squad goalies back to pre season training, fit and challenging for the number 1 shirt. 

[Marvin]

CG knows the score. I'm even sure he's delighted that Zander is playing so well. He knows it's going to take some doing to be 1st choice keeper again. Knowing Craig, he'd work even harder to get back to pre-injury form which will only benefit us should the unthinkable happen to Zander.

[Paisley Jambo]

Clark is out of depth at international level as Norway’s third goal showed. He lost 5 goals in two games.

 

Naismith should speak with Clarke as they have a relationship for his take.

 

Craig back in for me with Zander back up.

 

It’s crazy to think we used to have choice between Zammal, Perriera and Doyle 🤣🤣

[Ked]

If it isn't broken don't fix it.

 

[Robbo-Jambo]

2 hours ago, blairdin said:

 

Absolutely this. 

 

Craig Gordon will finish his club career with Hearts. I reckon he has another 2 seasons in him after this, easily. 

 

However, Craig Gordon deserves the chance to finish with international football in Germany. 

 

Zander doesn't deserve to lose the gloves, and equally deserves the chance to go to Germany. 

 

If Craig can get a good loan move to get his match fitness up, I'd let him go. I actually think we owe him that if he thinks its his best chance to push for a place in the squad for Germany. McGovern continues to back up Clark. 

 

Summer, we potentially have two Scotland squad goalies back to pre season training, fit and challenging for the number 1 shirt. 

Let him go ?

 

He is the best goalie at the club by a mile.

 

Play your best players in every position.

 

Clark is a bag of nerves at times.

[Bazzas right boot]

10 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

10 clean sheets out of 21 is a terrific record for a goalkeeper. 
 

At this stage last season we had conceded 32 goals. We had Gordon in goal for a large part. We’ve conceded 18 this season.
 

Yes it’s a team game. Yes it’s about the unit as a whole. No member of that unit is getting dropped unless we start leaking goals. 

 

Is how Naismith will see it.

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

5 hours ago, daveb15 said:

Both good keepers. Gordon has more ability for sure though and not picking him just cause Clark is in form is counterintuitive imo. If Shankland got injured and his replacement scored a few goals would we not bring him back in afterwards?
Pick your best players, always.

 

Injured for a year and only a few goal- yes you would.

 

But if his replacement has as many goals or more goals then no, Shankland wouldn't walk into the team.

 

In this case, Replace goals with clean sheets and the defensive record.

 

[daveb15]

42 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Injured for a year and only a few goal- yes you would.

 

But if his replacement has as many goals or more goals then no, Shankland wouldn't walk into the team.

 

In this case, Replace goals with clean sheets and the defensive record.

 

Fair points, I do respectfully disagree though. If you know you’ve got a better player waiting there I think you’re not doing what’s best for the team if you don’t find a place for them. I think especially so with a goalkeeper where you don’t need to adapt your tactics or ‘shoehorn’ them into a team somehow. A goalkeeper is a goalkeeper.

 

Having said that I don’t watch them train, Naismith does, it’s his call and maybe Gordon has lost a bit and Clark is just the right man for now.

[HMFC01]

The next match is an important match.   Important that we progress and don't gamble with rotating too much.   

 

I'd stick with the majority of the defence including the goalkeeper.   Rowles and  Atkinson out the obvious.   One debut is enough change for me.   I wouldn't want too much unsettled routine at the back.  If we're comfortably winning Gordon could get some time perhaps.   

 

I wouldn't mind letting Gordon go on loan.   So long as we have en emergency recall clause if Clark get injured.   What about a  long suspension. 

 

Tough call    

 

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

Craig was a better keeper and didn't lose his place through bad form. Father time and injuries physical and mentally,  do do you any favours. Plus, Zander doesn't deserve to be drooped, it's his Jersey,  till it's not.

[OTT]

Its such a horrible situation, but a great problem to have if you can park the sentimentality.. Craig Gordon was my hero when I was wee, and I'm over the moon he's back at the club! But you cannot justify taking Zander out of the starting 11. 

 

Cup games are probably about the fairest happy medium. In the summer, we'll have a difficult situation on our hands. We either back Zander and set him up as our keeper long term, knowing this will relegate Craig to a back up keeper. Or we cash in on Zander and back Craig.. 

 

Zander going back on the bench isn't an option I think.. 

[Jamhammer]

On 12/01/2024 at 21:26, OTT said:

Give Gordon the cup games. Its about the best we can do at the moment. 

 

Zander is in excellent form, so it wouldn't be fair or right to drop him. 

I agree with this although still thunk Craig is the better keeper by some distance 

To drop Zander just because Craig is fit would be bad management IMO

[May98]

12 hours ago, GinRummy said:

Or maybe none at our level. Hopefully he gets back to his best but after such a horrible injury at his age we just don’t know. 

True, fingers and toes crossed for sure. 

[escobri]

If Gordon is fit, then he should be starting imo, Clark is a big laddie and will get over being dropped, harsh? Maybe, but its Craig Gordon. Get him in goals.

 

 

[jambopilms]

A lot of assumptions being made that CG is back to his best. His form was poor before his injury, a year out and at the age that keepers retire. 

He might actually be second best at the club now.

[Mirror]

I'd love to see CG back in the team but given Zanders form, he cannot be dropped. 

[gregzy2k7]

I guess we will find out very shortly if CG is the same player and can still do it at our level, I expect him to be in goals for Spartans in the cup tie this weekend.

[i8hibsh]

Zander is playing better than he was right now, he is improving. He should therefore not lose his place. However, the next sub standard performance should see him lose his place. That is how a winning football club would do it. Only the highest of standards should ever be accepted.

[Benny Klack]

Happy to let our management team pick who should and shouldn’t start. We can’t afford to let sentiments come into this.

 

Clark has bee great this season and should not be dropped on current form. Who’s to say Gordon is as good as he was pre-injury? We can only go on “form” - if Clark’s form dips or he gets injured, Gordon will get his chance.

 

Clark is number 1 for the time being. 

[Gimme an H...]

Clark was signed as a backup to the best goalkeeper in Scotland and Scotland and Hearts' number 1/captain. He knew that when he signed. He wasn't signed as competition for CG, he was signed as a backup.

 

He's done his bit to a very high standard and should be applauded.

 

CG should now be reinstated.

[Cwapsy]

I'd start Gordon against Spartans. But keep Zander in for the league games 

[DS98]

37 minutes ago, Benny Klack said:

Happy to let our management team pick who should and shouldn’t start. We can’t afford to let sentiments come into this.

 

Clark has been great this season and should not be dropped on current form. Who’s to say Gordon is as good as he was pre-injury? We can only go on “form” - if Clark’s form dips or he gets injured, Gordon will get his chance.

 

Clark is number 1 for the time being. 

Think there’s a lot of recency bias with shouts like this. You could say he’s been great the last 5 or 6 games. But his overall season has been anything but. I think Clark was very lucky there wasn’t anyone to take his place Oct/Nov time as he would’ve been dropped without a doubt. 

[johnking123]

Clark has been excellent and deserves to keep his place. 

[Chimp]

Just now, johnking123 said:

Clark has been excellent and deserves to keep his place. 

 

Still makes mistakes though, and quite bad ones. For all his good shot stopping his positioning and handling (especially at cross balls) is often terrible. Gordon should be back in goals if he's fully fit and ready. 10 times the keeper of Clark. 

 

I don't care if Clark would feel hard done by or that he doesn't really deserve to lose his place. We have a world class keeper sitting on our bench and I want to see our best players play.

[Gimme an H...]

Before the recent upturn in results/performances you could point to a good few goals where Clark was at fault that had you saying "CG saves that..."

 

I like him and he's done his bit. But CG should be back in.

[Lossiemouth Jambo]

Not sure about ZC contract but look to extend. I would keep the status quo as is. Chat with CG about how long he sees himself with an appetite to play as he certainly has calibre to go on and on.

Once all agreed look to loan ZC to a side in the lower half of the EPL or Championship where hopefully he will develop even more. And we will have a great keeper 

[coatbridgejambo]

I'm hoping CG gets the gloves for the cup games at the very least. 

[johnking123]

Zander stays No1 till his form drops. It's that simple.

[AC Mallin_51]

Craig Gordon is my favourite Hearts player of all time simple as that. In the mid 00s when I was at primary school he was my idol and everything I wanted to be when I grew up. I even cut the sleeves off my Hearts keeper kits to be like him. When he came back I was over the moon and I’ll argue that he was even better in 21/22 than he was in 05/06. Simply sensational. Zander has kept 10 clean sheets, been pretty solid, just saved a penalty at Easter road and is part of a very steady defence. So for that Zander keeps his place 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Gimme an H... said:

Clark was signed as a backup to the best goalkeeper in Scotland and Scotland and Hearts' number 1/captain. He knew that when he signed. He wasn't signed as competition for CG, he was signed as a backup.

 

He's done his bit to a very high standard and should be applauded.

 

CG should now be reinstated.

 

It's Clark's position to lose. I don't thing CG should just walk back into the squad either. We don't even know if Craig will be as good as previously. 

Edited January 15 by Marvin

[Benny Klack]

1 hour ago, DS98 said:

Think there’s a lot of recency bias with shouts like this. You could say he’s been great the last 5 or 6 games. But his overall season has been anything but. I think Clark was very lucky there wasn’t anyone to take his place Oct/Nov time as he would’ve been dropped without a doubt. 

Perhaps you are right about some performances earlier in the season - but there was no tested replacement then. 
 

You then go on to say he’s been great the past 5 or 6 games - what kind of manager would drop someone on great form just because a club legend has recovered from injury? What kind of message does that send out to the squad? Clark is number 1 until he makes droppable (pardon the pun) mistakes or gets injured. Simple as that IMO.

 

A manager must be objective and not let sentimentality get in the way - sentimentality is for the fans 😉

 

Who is to say Gordon is back at a standard where he is as good as Clark now or indeed the level we all seen he was pre- injury? None of us know this or sees this like our manager will be seeing.

 

Perhaps it’s no coincidence that Clark’s form has increased a level since Gordon is back training with him? 
 

It’s a good position to begin but dropping Clark when he is digging us out of games (Hibs) would send out poor signals as a boss. 
 

And we should never consider the nonsense of having a “cup keeper”. We should be playing our first choice line ups at all times - particularly the goalkeeper and defence. Why rock the boat ? 
 

 

Edited January 15 by Benny Klack

[gorgierulesapply88]

Gordon is the best keeper at the club, and would have caught Dhanda free kick and not sold himself to tavernier at hampden either! 

 

 

[spacerjoe]

On 13/01/2024 at 20:07, daveb15 said:

Fair points, I do respectfully disagree though. If you know you’ve got a better player waiting there I think you’re not doing what’s best for the team if you don’t find a place for them. I think especially so with a goalkeeper where you don’t need to adapt your tactics or ‘shoehorn’ them into a team somehow. A goalkeeper is a goalkeeper.

 

Having said that I don’t watch them train, Naismith does, it’s his call and maybe Gordon has lost a bit and Clark is just the right man for now.

If Shankland is out for a season and Vargas comes in a scores more goals than him, then by that defining metric Vargas is now the better player.

 

Of course, Zander is not as talented a keeper as Craig, but his record this season is better.

 

A goalkeeper is not also just a a goalkeeper. Zander has built up an understanding with his defence now..the whole unit is performing exceptionally well.

 

He should stay. No need to rock the boat.

 

 

[Gimme an H...]

41 minutes ago, Marvin said:

 

It's Clark's position to lose. I don't thing CG should just walk back into the squad either. We don't even know if Craig will be as good as previously. 

CG has earned the right to walk back into the squad if he deems himself fit and able enough to play. He wouldn't embarass himself if he didn't think he could do as good a job as he did previously.

 

I think the last point could be aimed at an outfield player given the nature of the injury but it's not the same with goalkeepers.

 

I think it's a case of Zanders done nothing to deserve to be dropped at the moment and that's why CG hasn't been put back in. But if I was manager I'd have him right back where he belongs.

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, Gimme an H... said:

Clark was signed as a backup to the best goalkeeper in Scotland and Scotland and Hearts' number 1/captain. He knew that when he signed. He wasn't signed as competition for CG, he was signed as a backup.

 

He's done his bit to a very high standard and should be applauded.

 

CG should now be reinstated.

Spot on. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, DS98 said:

Think there’s a lot of recency bias with shouts like this. You could say he’s been great the last 5 or 6 games. But his overall season has been anything but. I think Clark was very lucky there wasn’t anyone to take his place Oct/Nov time as he would’ve been dropped without a doubt. 

Absolutely.