Unreasonable

[The Hogfather]

Can we also dispense with this idea that this is all about yesterday’s result. We’ve won 3 league games out of 8 so far, when everyone was clamouring about how easy a start we were handed. 

[RENE]

Well said Kingy.  Yes very disappointing result, felt like a defeat but we played well most of the match.  It was two defensive errors defensively (too many of them recently) which cost us.

[Gordon Ramsay]

He's not getting the results. Whilst I agree we played fairly well yesterday, we dropped more points. 11 points from 8 winnable games is unacceptable and the criticism he is getting is justified. Not good enough. 

 

Our next 2 games are against Celtic and Rangers so we'll likely be on 11 points after 10 games. Utterly honking.

[ramrod]

The biggest mistake Naismith made yesterday was moving Sibbick into centre half when Kingsley went off.. he  eventually has some sort of brain fade when the pressure comes on history tells us that. He was doing OK at right back and  Offiah would have  been more secure in there with Kent imo.

Other than that I tbough Naismith got most things right and we were well in control for most of the game.

I wasn't sure about Naismith tbh but I'm seeing good things in the last few games and I'm more than happen to give him the January window and beyond to move things along  

[Dalstonjambo]

Whilst I agree with the OP’s point in principle, and say the majority of the points made are broadly correct, I’d argue his point about the subs looking wrong ‘in hindsight’ is being very kind. 
 

They were the wrong ones at the time.
 

Lowry sub - We were controlling the game. We were in no danger. We didn’t need to shore it up. They hadn’t had a shot on target. If Lowry was burst the sub was grant/boyce. Based on what I said at the time/ hearts whatsapp chats I’m in That’s not a view that came with hindsight. The whole team being made more defensive didn’t cause horrific defensive errors but it unsettles the shape/rhythm, moves us 5/10 yards back and tells them we are settling at 2-0. It could change momentum. 
 

Kingsley - had to come off. However Rowles and Kent have looked better in last few weeks. Why unsettle it and move 3 around? What’s the point of Halliday being on the bench (I’m not a fan) if he doesn’t come on at LB there. If he doesn’t want Halliday on, move Rowles out and bring on offiah at CB (weren’t we told he was a CB who could play RB?) rather than changing 3 positions. 
 

I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but those are views most of us held at the time. It’s not hindsight. The fact Naismith didn’t is my concern. Lets hope it’s a one off. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Dalstonjambo

[Debut 4]

35 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

When was it exactly we became so unreasonable as a support? 

 

Yesterday. With the benefit of hindsight naisy got the subs and adjustments wrong. . But looking at it on face value there was a lot of logic behind the subs and the adjustments he made based on the players available to  him right now.  If we had a fit or match fit Oda, Mackay, Tagawa , Cochrane, Natty, Halkett those aren’t the changes he’d have made are they?

 

He isn’t the first manager to make a mistake with subs, and he certainly won’t be the last.  Imagine this forum had existed in 01-01-1998.  JJ would never have made the cup final it seems based on the views of some on here.  

 

There is also something very disingenuous with posts completely omitting the fact that he got the starting line up very very very right. We absolutely bossed the game until 2 individual errors, and even with the setback we were still the better side.  Looking at it in a balanced way it was as good a derby performance as we’ve had for years 20+ efforts at goal in a fixture which is usually turgid.  Highlight the positives where it’s due for god sake.  If Toby hadn’t had a brain fart then we’d be waxing lyrical about yesterday..

 

Undoubtedly it was a massive kick in the baws.  I hardly slept a wink ffs - absolute nightmare but surely we have to take the positives. 

 

We were very good yesterday, we’ve been on a decent run and have won as many away games this season as we did in the whole of last season, we’ve don’t this whilst missing a full first 11. Has it been good enough overall ? Absolutely not but I have seen improvement since McEvoy moved aside (that was a farce ) and I don’t see any reasons why we won’t continue to see improvement .  

 

If Naisy keeps making tactical errors over the next 5/6 then I will be all over it but it was only days ago he was being praised for tactical changes and subs against Killie and Ross county, so no pattern there yet is there.

Decent post King.

 

Although not in quite the same state as when Stendel took over (the team) ,  Naismith isn’t really being given some slack and patience from certain quarters…..Yes, all of us probably hold the view to an extent that he was an easy appointment but there’s evidence he’s got the players playing for him and he can make the right changes but also get it wrong as lot of managers do.  

How can a manager be expected to turn a team into his own image with barely being allowed a season in charge?   He’s probably inherited players he quietly doesn’t rate but has to make it work for now.  He’s seeing the individual errors and traits of some players that rear their heads too often that cost us or come to the fore when you least need them to…..but he can’t just fall out with every player when it happens. 
 

He needs to make do until he can turn the squad around to how he wants it. 
 

Of course, he’s got an important job. He needs to make it work the best he can with what he has, that goes for any manager at any time anywhere but there equally needs to be understanding from the sidelines.

 

I was absolutely spewing yesterday at full time but there was absolutely no need for the booing.  It’s not my style anyway even when times have been a lot worse.  It’s a derby and I know it affects everyone differently in the aftermath regards the result but that wasn’t a team all over the place from the start and not producing chances and good play.  I would be far more worried if we weren’t.  
 

At their goals is when Naismith will see what some players are about. That’s when he’ll learn what needs to be better.  Only time will tell us if we improve or not in moments we are under pressure but he needs transfer windows along with the time to work with the players he has.  

 

[Jean Louis Valois]

49 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

When was it exactly we became so unreasonable as a support? 

 

Yesterday. With the benefit of hindsight naisy got the subs and adjustments wrong. . But looking at it on face value there was a lot of logic behind the subs and the adjustments he made based on the players available to  him right now.  If we had a fit or match fit Oda, Mackay, Tagawa , Cochrane, Natty, Halkett those aren’t the changes he’d have made are they?

 

He isn’t the first manager to make a mistake with subs, and he certainly won’t be the last.  Imagine this forum had existed in 01-01-1998.  JJ would never have made the cup final it seems based on the views of some on here.  

 

There is also something very disingenuous with posts completely omitting the fact that he got the starting line up very very very right. We absolutely bossed the game until 2 individual errors, and even with the setback we were still the better side.  Looking at it in a balanced way it was as good a derby performance as we’ve had for years 20+ efforts at goal in a fixture which is usually turgid.  Highlight the positives where it’s due for god sake.  If Toby hadn’t had a brain fart then we’d be waxing lyrical about yesterday..

 

Undoubtedly it was a massive kick in the baws.  I hardly slept a wink ffs - absolute nightmare but surely we have to take the positives. 

 

We were very good yesterday, we’ve been on a decent run and have won as many away games this season as we did in the whole of last season, we’ve don’t this whilst missing a full first 11. Has it been good enough overall ? Absolutely not but I have seen improvement since McEvoy moved aside (that was a farce ) and I don’t see any reasons why we won’t continue to see improvement .  

 

If Naisy keeps making tactical errors over the next 5/6 then I will be all over it but it was only days ago he was being praised for tactical changes and subs against Killie and Ross county, so no pattern there yet is there.

How dare you be so balanced in your post. Completely agree with this, most comfortable we have been in recent derbies. Naismith has got the subs spot on in the last 2 games. Individual errors cost us, simple as that. We can't want him sacked after every game that doesn't go our way, ridiculous. 

[TallPaul]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a club our size to have a competent manager in charge. Naismith should have been off being tested in the lower leagues.

 

Our expectations should be higher than being a training ground for rookies.

[Jodami]

I agree with the OP, particularly on the starting line up which was perfect. Mistakes were made with the subs and lack of concentration by the players but taking a step back from the emotion of the vermin stealing a point that is the best we have played this season. I have not been shy in criticising Naismith but feel we are starting to see some progress. 

[AGoodLaugh]

50 minutes ago, Gordon_1874 said:

Totally agree with this. Too high when we win and too high when we don't. The booing at full-time as well was a nonsense. We were brilliant in that 1st half. 2nd half was a bit more even but we still had great chances. Like everyone I'm disappointed but we've got more than half a team of starters injured ffs

Think some of the booing was aimed at Collum for stopping us mid-attack to be fair. 

[XB52]

57 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

Manager chucks away a 2 goal lead at Tynecastle v them,never going to be pretty.

 

The same scoreline ended Neilson to the point that some fans will never forgive him.

 

Paulo Sergios football was mostly pish and boring but the fact he handed Hibs their arse time and time again means he will forever be remembered fondly.

 

The manager never, 2 stupid minutes by our defence threw it away

[fabienleclerq]

Great Post.

[XB52]

13 minutes ago, ramrod said:

The biggest mistake Naismith made yesterday was moving Sibbick into centre half when Kingsley went off.. he  eventually has some sort of brain fade when the pressure comes on history tells us that. He was doing OK at right back and  Offiah would have  been more secure in there with Kent imo.

Other than that I tbough Naismith got most things right and we were well in control for most of the game.

I wasn't sure about Naismith tbh but I'm seeing good things in the last few games and I'm more than happen to give him the January window and beyond to move things along  

I agree with this. Would have been better keeping Sibbick at right back, where he played really well

[Kidd’s Boots]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

When was it exactly we became so unreasonable as a support? 

 

Yesterday. With the benefit of hindsight naisy got the subs and adjustments wrong. . But looking at it on face value there was a lot of logic behind the subs and the adjustments he made based on the players available to  him right now.  If we had a fit or match fit Oda, Mackay, Tagawa , Cochrane, Natty, Halkett those aren’t the changes he’d have made are they?

 

He isn’t the first manager to make a mistake with subs, and he certainly won’t be the last.  Imagine this forum had existed in 01-01-1998.  JJ would never have made the cup final it seems based on the views of some on here.  

 

There is also something very disingenuous with posts completely omitting the fact that he got the starting line up very very very right. We absolutely bossed the game until 2 individual errors, and even with the setback we were still the better side.  Looking at it in a balanced way it was as good a derby performance as we’ve had for years 20+ efforts at goal in a fixture which is usually turgid.  Highlight the positives where it’s due for god sake.  If Toby hadn’t had a brain fart then we’d be waxing lyrical about yesterday..

 

Undoubtedly it was a massive kick in the baws.  I hardly slept a wink ffs - absolute nightmare but surely we have to take the positives. 

 

We were very good yesterday, we’ve been on a decent run and have won as many away games this season as we did in the whole of last season, we’ve don’t this whilst missing a full first 11. Has it been good enough overall ? Absolutely not but I have seen improvement since McEvoy moved aside (that was a farce ) and I don’t see any reasons why we won’t continue to see improvement .  

 

If Naisy keeps making tactical errors over the next 5/6 then I will be all over it but it was only days ago he was being praised for tactical changes and subs against Killie and Ross county, so no pattern there yet is there.

An outbreak of sanity at last on Kickback…

 

[Nelly Terraces]

Not losing my shit in any way as I’m far more sanguine about all things HMFC than I used to be, but do I think Steven Naismith will turn out to be a successful manager for Hearts? No, not really.

 

Anyway, looks like it’s - at last - stopped raining so off for a run now. Yay!

[Robbo-Jambo]

52 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

It's one of those things if we hadn't have lost those two shitty goals he would have been praised to the hilt and the subs wouldn't even have had a mention.Fine margins 

This.

[kingantti1874]

The responses here have cheered me up. Clear that the majority of hearts fans remain rational and fair.  
 

others will scream no matter what we do, no manager will ever make them happy that’s clear and thus they will then direct ire at the board.  
 

I expect to finish 3rd. I’m confident after yesterday, Killie and RC away and Aberdeen that we are heading in the right direction and if we are reasonable, and give the manager time we will get there.  

[kingantti1874]

7 minutes ago, XB52 said:

I agree with this. Would have been better keeping Sibbick at right back, where he played really well

100% agree in hindsight mate .  Tbh I’m just not sure offiah is very good, and despite arguing with another poster last night I don’t think Halliday v Boyle would have a been a great idea. 

 

So you are left with, offiah at CB or Sibbick at CB.  Naisy must think Sibbick is better there. I’m sure he would have preferred that Kingsley didn’t get injured as we were very very comfortable before that.

[maltese jambo]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

When was it exactly we became so unreasonable as a support? 

 

Yesterday. With the benefit of hindsight naisy got the subs and adjustments wrong. . But looking at it on face value there was a lot of logic behind the subs and the adjustments he made based on the players available to  him right now.  If we had a fit or match fit Oda, Mackay, Tagawa , Cochrane, Natty, Halkett those aren’t the changes he’d have made are they?

 

He isn’t the first manager to make a mistake with subs, and he certainly won’t be the last.  Imagine this forum had existed in 01-01-1998.  JJ would never have made the cup final it seems based on the views of some on here.  

 

There is also something very disingenuous with posts completely omitting the fact that he got the starting line up very very very right. We absolutely bossed the game until 2 individual errors, and even with the setback we were still the better side.  Looking at it in a balanced way it was as good a derby performance as we’ve had for years 20+ efforts at goal in a fixture which is usually turgid.  Highlight the positives where it’s due for god sake.  If Toby hadn’t had a brain fart then we’d be waxing lyrical about yesterday..

 

Undoubtedly it was a massive kick in the baws.  I hardly slept a wink ffs - absolute nightmare but surely we have to take the positives. 

 

We were very good yesterday, we’ve been on a decent run and have won as many away games this season as we did in the whole of last season, we’ve don’t this whilst missing a full first 11. Has it been good enough overall ? Absolutely not but I have seen improvement since McEvoy moved aside (that was a farce ) and I don’t see any reasons why we won’t continue to see improvement .  

 

If Naisy keeps making tactical errors over the next 5/6 then I will be all over it but it was only days ago he was being praised for tactical changes and subs against Killie and Ross county, so no pattern there yet is there.

What Hearts are doing right now on the pitch...not good enough. Yesterday prime example. Against, by all accounts, a poor Hibs team, in the Derby, at home we literally throw it away. We can't be doing that.

 

Large amounts of money literally being thrown at the club and what do we have to show for it? Mediocrity on the pitch, thousands of signings which turn out to be generally speaking not good enough (personally I think down to poor coaching).

 

'State of the art' facilities and youth setup however youngsters consistently being mis managed or not given opportunity.

 

Decision making at top level really has been atrocious and it seems that its literally jobs for the boys and no accountability....funny way to run things for a 'fan owned' club. The FOH really should hang their head in shame.

 

I don't think that's unreasonable to say at all 

 

 

[OmiyaHearts]

Because he's making big mistakes in almost every game we've played this season. He got subs right in one game tbf.

 

Hardly anyone is playing well under him and results have been poor as well as performances.

 

He's not a good manager and most can see that. It's the frustration of waiting for the inevitable sacking around Christmas, instead of dealing with it now.

Edited October 8, 2023 by OmiyaHearts

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Gordon_1874 said:

Spin it around. Imagine hibs were missing Boyle, Youan, their best CB LB RB GK etc.

 

That was hibs best eleven yesterday and they scraped a point because we gifted it to them. We're all annoyed but we don't have the finances where there isn't a difference with starters and squad players unfortunately.

They were missing Cadden and their GK went off, did we manage to make his replacement save a shot?

[TheBigO]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

When was it exactly we became so unreasonable as a support? 

 

Yesterday. With the benefit of hindsight naisy got the subs and adjustments wrong. . But looking at it on face value there was a lot of logic behind the subs and the adjustments he made based on the players available to  him right now.  If we had a fit or match fit Oda, Mackay, Tagawa , Cochrane, Natty, Halkett those aren’t the changes he’d have made are they?

 

He isn’t the first manager to make a mistake with subs, and he certainly won’t be the last.  Imagine this forum had existed in 01-01-1998.  JJ would never have made the cup final it seems based on the views of some on here.  

 

There is also something very disingenuous with posts completely omitting the fact that he got the starting line up very very very right. We absolutely bossed the game until 2 individual errors, and even with the setback we were still the better side.  Looking at it in a balanced way it was as good a derby performance as we’ve had for years 20+ efforts at goal in a fixture which is usually turgid.  Highlight the positives where it’s due for god sake.  If Toby hadn’t had a brain fart then we’d be waxing lyrical about yesterday..

 

Undoubtedly it was a massive kick in the baws.  I hardly slept a wink ffs - absolute nightmare but surely we have to take the positives. 

 

We were very good yesterday, we’ve been on a decent run and have won as many away games this season as we did in the whole of last season, we’ve don’t this whilst missing a full first 11. Has it been good enough overall ? Absolutely not but I have seen improvement since McEvoy moved aside (that was a farce ) and I don’t see any reasons why we won’t continue to see improvement .  

 

If Naisy keeps making tactical errors over the next 5/6 then I will be all over it but it was only days ago he was being praised for tactical changes and subs against Killie and Ross county, so no pattern there yet is there.

Im just not sure the subs were so wrong!!! Hindsight is delicious to some.

 

Lowry had run himself out. At 2-0 up, every single one of us sees Beni come on and thinks "yasss game over". Without exception.

 

And Offiah for Kingsley. When the other option is Halliday. Do me a bloody favour. Toby in to CH where hes been the derby hero more than once. Made a proper tit of the second goal.

 

But guess what... WE'RE MISSING 4 OF OUR BEST 5 DEFENDERS. PLUS CRAIG GORDON!!!

 

I repeat. Do me a favour.

 

Naisy got the team spot on and its not often these things are this close to fact, but if Kingsley doesnt get injured, we win. Fact.

 

Who knows if we'll ever have a full squad or even a couple.of injuries, but our 2nd team just battered Hibs 1st team. And they got away with it.

 

By the way, where is there any mention of our injuries in the media? Never seems to be acknowledged as a massive factor.

[Pasquale for King]

7 minutes ago, maltese jambo said:

What Hearts are doing right now on the pitch...not good enough. Yesterday prime example. Against, by all accounts, a poor Hibs team, in the Derby, at home we literally throw it away. We can't be doing that.

 

Large amounts of money literally being thrown at the club and what do we have to show for it? Mediocrity on the pitch, thousands of signings which turn out to be generally speaking not good enough (personally I think down to poor coaching).

 

'State of the art' facilities and youth setup however youngsters consistently being mis managed or not given opportunity.

 

Decision making at top level really has been atrocious and it seems that its literally jobs for the boys and no accountability....funny way to run things for a 'fan owned' club. The FOH really should hang their head in shame.

 

I don't think that's unreasonable to say at all 

 

 

Spot on 

[Pasquale for King]

38 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a club our size to have a competent manager in charge. Naismith should have been off being tested in the lower leagues.

 

Our expectations should be higher than being a training ground for rookies.

Absolutely 

[OmiyaHearts]

27 minutes ago, XB52 said:

The manager never, 2 stupid minutes by our defence threw it away

He did. He took off an attacking player for a defensive player, while comfortably  2-0 up. He takes the blame.

[Pasquale for King]

43 minutes ago, Gordon Ramsay said:

He's not getting the results. Whilst I agree we played fairly well yesterday, we dropped more points. 11 points from 8 winnable games is unacceptable and the criticism he is getting is justified. Not good enough. 

 

Our next 2 games are against Celtic and Rangers so we'll likely be on 11 points after 10 games. Utterly honking.

Indeed 

[Niemi’s gloves]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Spot on 

 

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Absolutely 

 

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Indeed 

An entirely sensible and justified OP. Your objective seems to be to give support and encouragement to all the serial whiners. Why not try giving support and encouragement to the manager and the team?

[kingantti1874]

Naismith.  Starts with a very attacking team and made a sensible sub when Lowry was burst which didn’t really impact the game.  Absolutely hammered for making a so called “defensive” sub.

 

literally the same posters were all over Stephen Robinson.  A guy who’s never started with an attacking team in his life.  Because he’s experienced and currently having a very small purple patch.  But according to some he will probably learn to play on the front foot at hearts 

 

so we don’t want an attacking manager who made a logical defensive sub, we want a manager who’s style is boring, disruptive and looks to give up possession on a baseless hop he will get better 
 

ironic, hilarious, irrational, clueless and unreasonable.

 

JKB in a nutshell.

 

[jamb-oz]

1 hour ago, Leveins Battalion said:

Manager chucks away a 2 goal lead at Tynecastle v them,never going to be pretty.

 

The same scoreline ended Neilson to the point that some fans will never forgive him.

 

Paulo Sergios football was mostly pish and boring but the fact he handed Hibs their arse time and time again means he will forever be remembered fondly.

 

I honestly believe the reason so many would never accept Neilson was because of throwing the 2-0 lead away in the cup.

 

Looking back his record with us was very good. However, Naismith simply HAS to win the next Edinburgh derby if he even gets to that fixture. 

[HopeDiouf]

8 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

 

 

An entirely sensible and justified OP. Your objective seems to be to give support and encouragement to all the serial whiners. Why not try giving support and encouragement to the manager and the team?

Aye well done naisy. Great draw a home to the hobos.

[B4 Part B]

Good OP, and a lot of good posts discussing the merits of it.

 

I think the original question is complex, the main problem being football is an emotional game, but then that's also the joy of it! My half arsed thoughts fwiw:

 

I'm 38. In my lifetime I've always seen us as the 3rd biggest club in the country. Experience tells me we won't always have the 3rd best team, life doesn't work like that, but more often than not we'll be around 3rd. I feel that's borne out through my life time.

 

There's been various things held us back over the years, unsound finances, stadium needing upgraded, lack of training facilities, all impact the level of player and manager we can attract.

 

Right now, off the field, we're as good as I think we've ever been. We've an up to date, modern stadium, high class training facilities, and we're doing well financially. So it feels we should also be able to attract a better level of player and manager than ever before. That creates expectation.

 

We've all lived and breathed a lot more football than those in the past, through the number of games available on TV to the opinions, clips, stats shared on social media. That creates more clubs/teams/players/managers to compare ourselves to, which in turn creates expectation.

 

I think a combination of both of those things leads to heightened expectations and modern society as a whole has a need for instant gratification which drives some of this. Add to that we ****ing love this football club and live for it to be successful, can make reactions to wins, defeats, draws, extreme.

 

I'm sure there's loads of holes in that, like I said, it's my half baked thoughts.

 

Taking it more granular, I think we're in the best position off the field, which should translate to on the field. I think we've got the best squad we've had in a while, but we're inconsistent. It's up to the manager to implement a style of play that's effective enough to win games on a consistent enough basis to achieve our objectives of 3rd and good cup runs. Can't really tell what our trajectory is on the pitch at the moment.

[Pasquale for King]

9 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

 

 

An entirely sensible and justified OP. Your objective seems to be to give support and encouragement to all the serial whiners. Why not try giving support and encouragement to the manager and the team?

I gave them all the support they should’ve required yesterday at the match, they then deserved the abuse coming their way for not defeating a poor Hibs team for the third consecutive game.
We are underperforming as a club from top to bottom and happy clapping wont help us change that. 

[Famous 1874]

1 hour ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

I love it when internet nomarks know better than actual, real-life, professional footballers, coaches, and managers.

You agree with the Lowry to Beni sub with half an hour to go? 

[kingantti1874]

7 minutes ago, B4 Part B said:

Good OP, and a lot of good posts discussing the merits of it.

 

I think the original question is complex, the main problem being football is an emotional game, but then that's also the joy of it! My half arsed thoughts fwiw:

 

I'm 38. In my lifetime I've always seen us as the 3rd biggest club in the country. Experience tells me we won't always have the 3rd best team, life doesn't work like that, but more often than not we'll be around 3rd. I feel that's borne out through my life time.

 

There's been various things held us back over the years, unsound finances, stadium needing upgraded, lack of training facilities, all impact the level of player and manager we can attract.

 

Right now, off the field, we're as good as I think we've ever been. We've an up to date, modern stadium, high class training facilities, and we're doing well financially. So it feels we should also be able to attract a better level of player and manager than ever before. That creates expectation.

 

We've all lived and breathed a lot more football than those in the past, through the number of games available on TV to the opinions, clips, stats shared on social media. That creates more clubs/teams/players/managers to compare ourselves to, which in turn creates expectation.

 

I think a combination of both of those things leads to heightened expectations and modern society as a whole has a need for instant gratification which drives some of this. Add to that we ****ing love this football club and live for it to be successful, can make reactions to wins, defeats, draws, extreme.

 

I'm sure there's loads of holes in that, like I said, it's my half baked thoughts.

 

Taking it more granular, I think we're in the best position off the field, which should translate to on the field. I think we've got the best squad we've had in a while, but we're inconsistent. It's up to the manager to implement a style of play that's effective enough to win games on a consistent enough basis to achieve our objectives of 3rd and good cup runs. Can't really tell what our trajectory is on the pitch at the moment.

good reasonable post.  I agree with  a lot of it.  We do have a good squad, on paper.  But it doesn’t help much when so many are unavailable or not properly fit.

 

another thread yesterday listed 11 players who are unfit or unavailable to the manager.  A team who’s be capable of fighting for 3rd in isolation.

 

Gordon, 

Atkinson, Halkett Kingsley, Cochrane 

 Beni, Haring, Pollock

Oda, Tagawa, Mackay 

 

when I talk about unreasonable, it’s entirely unreasonable for anyone (not you mate) to suggest that isn’t a problem. 
 

we have improved over the past few weeks.  We will continue to improve if we give him time and show a bit of patience. 
 

yesterday was very encouraging, a kick in the baws but encouraging none the less.  
 

things like that happened to Alex Macdonald, Jim Jeffries and so other legendary hearts manager. They all make some mistakes.  No matter who we employ shit like that will happen on occasion. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by kingantti1874

[August Landmesser]

24 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

They were missing Cadden and their GK went off, did we manage to make his replacement save a shot?

Tbf the Hibs defenders were chucking themselves in front of every shot, desperately hanging on for their point. Felt like we had a few shots on target that didn't reach the keeper (if you see what I mean)

[Bull's-eye]

The nuggets on here on Friday wanted a performance, they got a performance, so the narrative changes to win at all costs. If we'd won then it wouldn't have been by enough goals.

 

Its the same nuggets that will whine about everything constantly on every single thread.

 

Empty vessels make the loudest noise.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Bull's-eye

[the posh bit]

1 hour ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Injuries just a crap excuse 

 

Quick check on the amount of players injured who'd stroll back into the first team and you realise this is what idiocy looks like. 

 

[kingantti1874]

3 minutes ago, Famous 1874 said:

You agree with the Lowry to Beni sub with half an hour to go? 

hardly the worst change in the history of management is it.  

 

Name a manager at hearts or any other club on earth who doesn’t make a decions which are questionable in retrospect. 
 

by all means question the decion - if Sibbick does have a Brian fart it’s not even mentioned btw. 
 

but holding it up  as a reason why he shouldn’t be here = utterly ridiculous 

 

 

[Niemi’s gloves]

4 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I gave them all the support they should’ve required yesterday at the match, they then deserved the abuse coming their way for not defeating a poor Hibs team for the third consecutive game.
We are underperforming as a club from top to bottom and happy clapping wont help us change that. 

There were plenty of positives yesterday. The club will never improve if managers aren’t given a chance to develop their teams. I think that the majority of fans are intelligent enough to see that a constant turnover of managers and players is a recipe for continuing underperformance. The “must beat Hibs or you’re out” mentality is childish. 

[kingantti1874]

14 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

Aye well done naisy. Great draw a home to the hobos.

 
Would you have sacked JJ when he lost a 2 goal lead after 10 minutes at home to the hobos. With one of the strongest hearts teams in 40 years.  With a quality of player miles beyond what we ever hope to have again  

 

Against a hibs team who were absolutely stinking.

 

 

[kingantti1874]

Just now, Niemi’s gloves said:

There were plenty of positives yesterday. The club will never improve if managers aren’t given a chance to develop their teams. I think that the majority of fans are intelligent enough to see that a constant turnover of managers and players is a recipe for continuing underperformance. The “must beat Hibs or you’re out” mentality is childish. 

Yup.Instant success or sacked. Never mind looking at circumstances or issues the guy needs to deal with 

 

Totally unreasonable. 

[loveofthegame]

2 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

When was it exactly we became so unreasonable as a support? 

 

Yesterday. With the benefit of hindsight naisy got the subs and adjustments wrong. . But looking at it on face value there was a lot of logic behind the subs and the adjustments he made based on the players available to  him right now.  If we had a fit or match fit Oda, Mackay, Tagawa , Cochrane, Natty, Halkett those aren’t the changes he’d have made are they?

 

He isn’t the first manager to make a mistake with subs, and he certainly won’t be the last.  Imagine this forum had existed in 01-01-1998.  JJ would never have made the cup final it seems based on the views of some on here.  

 

There is also something very disingenuous with posts completely omitting the fact that he got the starting line up very very very right. We absolutely bossed the game until 2 individual errors, and even with the setback we were still the better side.  Looking at it in a balanced way it was as good a derby performance as we’ve had for years 20+ efforts at goal in a fixture which is usually turgid.  Highlight the positives where it’s due for god sake.  If Toby hadn’t had a brain fart then we’d be waxing lyrical about yesterday..

 

Undoubtedly it was a massive kick in the baws.  I hardly slept a wink ffs - absolute nightmare but surely we have to take the positives. 

 

We were very good yesterday, we’ve been on a decent run and have won as many away games this season as we did in the whole of last season, we’ve don’t this whilst missing a full first 11. Has it been good enough overall ? Absolutely not but I have seen improvement since McEvoy moved aside (that was a farce ) and I don’t see any reasons why we won’t continue to see improvement .  

 

If Naisy keeps making tactical errors over the next 5/6 then I will be all over it but it was only days ago he was being praised for tactical changes and subs against Killie and Ross county, so no pattern there yet is there.

In amongst the nonsense and hysteria, an excellent OP.

 

We were in complete control yesterday. Two shocking individual errors cost us, but even then we had chances to go on and win.

 

We’ll be fine this season. 

[HopeDiouf]

3 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

 
Would you have sacked JJ when he lost a 2 goal lead after 10 minutes at home to the hobos. With one of the strongest hearts teams in 40 years.  With a quality of player miles beyond what we ever hope to have again  

 

Against a hibs team who were absolutely stinking.

 

 

No, but we would've been top of the league had we won that match. 

 

Naismith already had a lot kf negative credit in the bank before the hibs game.

 

[B4 Part B]

1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:

good reasonable post.  I agree with  a lot of it.  We do have a good squad, on paper.  But it doesn’t help much when so many are unavailable or not properly fit.

 

another thread yesterday listed 11 players who are unfit or unavailable to the manager.  A team who’s be capable of fighting for 3rd in isolation.

 

Gordon, 

Atkinson, Halkett Kingsley, Cochrane 

 Beni, Haring, Pollock

Oda, Tagawa, Mackay 

 

when I talk about unreasonable, it’s entirely unreasonable for anyone (not you mate) to suggest that isn’t a problem. 
 

we have improved over the past few weeks.  We will continue to improve if we give him time and show a bit of patience. 

I agree we'd be a lot stronger with those players fit/available.

 

I think that's why much of the debate centres around the manager. Being without those players is a problem for the manager to solve. Not easy, but again on paper, I think our team without those players is good enough to get positive results more often than not, and we're not quite doing that yet.

 

I was angry after St Mirren away and felt sacking Naismith was the way to go. The performances/results in the games since have been much improved. I believe Naismith will get better with time, and therefore so will the team. But how long does he need, will we still achieve our objectives, will it be worth it, would someone different get us there quicker or more comfortably, all things we can't possibly know right now.

 

I'm still a fickle football fan and have calmed down after wanting him sacked after St Mirren, I feel he's bought himself some time. I hope the improvements continue but fear if we stall then the pressure becomes too much and he'll not get the time he needs to become the manager people believe he can be.

[pettigrewsstylist]

1 hour ago, ramrod said:

The biggest mistake Naismith made yesterday was moving Sibbick into centre half when Kingsley went off.. he  eventually has some sort of brain fade when the pressure comes on history tells us that. He was doing OK at right back and  Offiah would have  been more secure in there with Kent imo.

Other than that I tbough Naismith got most things right and we were well in control for most of the game.

I wasn't sure about Naismith tbh but I'm seeing good things in the last few games and I'm more than happen to give him the January window and beyond to move things along  

All fair and accurate IMO.

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

There were plenty of positives yesterday. The club will never improve if managers aren’t given a chance to develop their teams. I think that the majority of fans are intelligent enough to see that a constant turnover of managers and players is a recipe for continuing underperformance. The “must beat Hibs or you’re out” mentality is childish. 

Constant turnover of managers? We’ve had 5 managers in ten years? That’s about average. Anyone who pays attention to football knows that, they also know that club’s turnover about 5-10 players every season. Thats football today, you dont have time to develop the team, hes 20 games in and we’re worse than we were after his first home game. 
There were positives yesterday, but we still dropped more points at home that we can’t afford too if we want to finish 3rd again. 
The style he promised and delivered against RC and Aberdeen isn’t there, which was the reason most people wanted him to get a chance. All we are seeing is more of the same. 

[BackOfTheNet]

2 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

When was it exactly we became so unreasonable as a support? 

 

Yesterday. With the benefit of hindsight naisy got the subs and adjustments wrong. . But looking at it on face value there was a lot of logic behind the subs and the adjustments he made based on the players available to  him right now.  If we had a fit or match fit Oda, Mackay, Tagawa , Cochrane, Natty, Halkett those aren’t the changes he’d have made are they?

 

He isn’t the first manager to make a mistake with subs, and he certainly won’t be the last.  Imagine this forum had existed in 01-01-1998.  JJ would never have made the cup final it seems based on the views of some on here.  

 

There is also something very disingenuous with posts completely omitting the fact that he got the starting line up very very very right. We absolutely bossed the game until 2 individual errors, and even with the setback we were still the better side.  Looking at it in a balanced way it was as good a derby performance as we’ve had for years 20+ efforts at goal in a fixture which is usually turgid.  Highlight the positives where it’s due for god sake.  If Toby hadn’t had a brain fart then we’d be waxing lyrical about yesterday..

 

Undoubtedly it was a massive kick in the baws.  I hardly slept a wink ffs - absolute nightmare but surely we have to take the positives. 

 

We were very good yesterday, we’ve been on a decent run and have won as many away games this season as we did in the whole of last season, we’ve don’t this whilst missing a full first 11. Has it been good enough overall ? Absolutely not but I have seen improvement since McEvoy moved aside (that was a farce ) and I don’t see any reasons why we won’t continue to see improvement .  

 

If Naisy keeps making tactical errors over the next 5/6 then I will be all over it but it was only days ago he was being praised for tactical changes and subs against Killie and Ross county, so no pattern there yet is there.

It’s just internet extremes. No sitting on the fence allowed or admitting you don’t know or heaven forbid context be included. It’s either the GOAT or not worth the time of day.

 

Normally you can dismiss these views as frustrated or drunken posts on the internet, but the problem is that you don’t have to be on JKB or Twitter or FB for this stuff to seep through. As all it takes is the loudest guy in the group chat or down the pub to be in that mindset, and you have these sentiments bellowing out constantly to the point the quieter less confident elements starting to repeat it. So you end up with the loud minority and the echoing droning sheep mentality and it ends up the more nuanced views taking account context get drowned out.

 

This happens with Hearts, but you can apply it to absolutely any online debate or topic.

[heartgarfunkel]

You are absolutely spot on, well said. 

[kingantti1874]

1 minute ago, BackOfTheNet said:

It’s just internet extremes. No sitting on the fence allowed or admitting you don’t know or heaven forbid context be included. It’s either the GOAT or not worth the time of day.

 

Normally you can dismiss these views as frustrated or drunken posts on the internet, but the problem is that you don’t have to be on JKB or Twitter or FB for this stuff to seep through. As all it takes is the loudest guy in the group chat or down the pub to be in that mindset, and you have these sentiments bellowing out constantly to the point the quieter less confident elements starting to repeat it. So you end up with the loud minority and the echoing droning sheep mentality and it ends up the more nuanced views taking account context get drowned out.

 

This happens with Hearts, but you can apply it to absolutely any online debate or topic.

Very very true. I wonder if people actually realise they are part of the problem.  

 

remember when Sibbick form turned around instantly with a bit of support.  Guy is a mess again.

 

booing hearts at the game is absolutely shite no matter what. 
 

[MattyK82]

Man, That was a sore yin yesterday. An absolute sickener if I am brutally honest.
 

And I could not see it coming during the match. Within the confines of the game, we played very well. We Played through the lines constantly, looked dangerous nearly every time we went forward and looked solid defensively. We were comfortable and I was quite surprised how poor Hibs looked in an Attacking sense. Their first shot on target was youan’s first goal. 
 

When you throw away a 2 goal lead, naturally every decision is going to be put under the microscope, particularly in a home derby. It’s what fans do. Sort of like the last two matches we won - SN got praise for his subs in those games because of the fact they won us those matches.  I understand why fan’s questioned the substitutions yesterday.They did seem to affect the flow of the game. 
 

And while both goals were entirely of our own making (the 1st - had Beni cleared it even 10 yards further/had the pass not flicked off TS’s heel and landed perfectly for Youan, it doesn’t happen.  The 2nd in particular was criminal defending - firstly Boyle having the space to cross and then Toby’s incredible decision not to boot it out),

 

at the other end, had;

 

Lowrys half volley soared past Marshall 

 

lowrys daisy cutter been an inch the other way, and hit the post and gone in 

 

Rowles deflected strike hit the underside of the bar and gone in 

 

Beni’s shot at the end looped over their then keeper 

 

Then we would all be waxing lyrical about a deserved victory while acknowledging TS needs to cut out the brain farts. Fine margins.

 

As it turned out, the game ended 2-2 and it feels like a defeat. 
 

But look, while we played very well, and should have won, managers live and die by results, particularly in derbies. 

Hibs got away with one yesterday. They know it. We know it. 
 

And had we won, it would have been 4 wins in the last 5 matches. 
 

With the run of fixtures we have coming up, the team need to keep doing what they did in an attacking sense and cut out the individual errors. And with the players we have to come back over the next few weeks, I am hopeful we can get some results.