Israel and Palestine

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Presumably Palestinian Islamic Jihad are a dance troop?

[Diadora Van Basten]

1 hour ago, Herbert. said:

 

Maybe the Palestinians shouldn't launch rockets at Israel then and they won't get bombed back.

It’s an interesting point and I went to Wilkipedia to find out why. In ten years 25 Israeli civilians had been killed by 1000s of rockets fired into Israel. The reason they do it is more symbolic to create fear than to do damage. If 25 people have died in 10 years of rockets then I have my doubts if one rocket could kill 500 people at a hospital.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

It’s an interesting point and I went to Wilkipedia to find out why. In ten years 25 Israeli civilians had been killed by 1000s of rockets fired into Israel. The reason they do it is more symbolic to create fear than to do damage. If 25 people have died in 10 years of rockets then I have my doubts if one rocket could kill 500 people at a hospital.

 

Maybe depends on how much unexpended rocket fuel there is to cause a comparatively smaller/larger explosion and/or fire.  A rocket seconds into it's flight tending to have more rocket fuel than one landing at an intended target.  Maybe also depends on what it lands on (human / earth / roof / wall / arms cache).

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

It’s an interesting point and I went to Wilkipedia to find out why. In ten years 25 Israeli civilians had been killed by 1000s of rockets fired into Israel. The reason they do it is more symbolic to create fear than to do damage. If 25 people have died in 10 years of rockets then I have my doubts if one rocket could kill 500 people at a hospital.

There has to be a deep collective psychology amongst Jews not from these rockets alone but pretty much universal persecution definitely pre 18th century and the obvious 20th century stuff.

There's no defending Israels actions but I can't help understand how that impacts mindset across a people.

You've posted some balanced  stuff today btw.

Good read.

 

[Victorian]

Would also greatly depend on the bad luck of a munition landing on a large number of densely concentrated together people.

[JyTees]

6 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

It’s an interesting point and I went to Wilkipedia to find out why. In ten years 25 Israeli civilians had been killed by 1000s of rockets fired into Israel. The reason they do it is more symbolic to create fear than to do damage. If 25 people have died in 10 years of rockets then I have my doubts if one rocket could kill 500 people at a hospital.

 

Of course you have your doubts. But if you get all your data from Palestine "officials" and Owen Jones then I'm not surprised. 

 

 

[kingantti1874]

Pretty clear that hamas were responsible for the hospital incident.  
 

if it were an airstrike then there wouldn’t be a hospital.  End off

[kingantti1874]

12 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

It’s an interesting point and I went to Wilkipedia to find out why. In ten years 25 Israeli civilians had been killed by 1000s of rockets fired into Israel. The reason they do it is more symbolic to create fear than to do damage. If 25 people have died in 10 years of rockets then I have my doubts if one rocket could kill 500 people at a hospital.

probably becuase the 500 claimed by hamas is a lie. 

[Mac_fae_Gillie]

9 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

It’s an interesting point and I went to Wilkipedia to find out why. In ten years 25 Israeli civilians had been killed by 1000s of rockets fired into Israel. The reason they do it is more symbolic to create fear than to do damage. If 25 people have died in 10 years of rockets then I have my doubts if one rocket could kill 500 people at a hospital.

Last nights reports of 200 to 500 dead at hospital seem to have been massively over stated, looks more like few may have died but it was the car park that was hit, a larger than normal explosion for a Hamas rocket yes, but it had just been launched thus full of fuel as well as the war head.

Seen same pictures on all TV news stations nothing but few burned out cars.. Could be wrong but looks like Hamas tried to push a story when they hit the hospital over sold it now look like idiots been the building was not hit.. but thx god no such event occurred.

[Mikey1874]

Channel 4 News about to do a report

 

 

[doctor jambo]

15 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Maybe depends on how much unexpended rocket fuel there is to cause a comparatively smaller/larger explosion and/or fire.  A rocket seconds into it's flight tending to have more rocket fuel than one landing at an intended target.  Maybe also depends on what it lands on (human / earth / roof / wall / arms cache).

They can fuel their rockets , but not their generators/ hospitals .

Sounds about right 

[Boab]

9 minutes ago, Ked said:

There has to be a deep collective psychology amongst Jews not from these rockets alone but pretty much universal persecution definitely pre 18th century and the obvious 20th century stuff.

There's no defending Israels actions but I can't help understand how that impacts mindset across a people.

You've posted some balanced  stuff today btw.

Good read.

 

The word, ghetto, comes from the Italian, and meant where the Jews lived in the city. Derived from ghèto, where the Venetians put the Jews in a separate part of the city that was used as a foundry, ghèto in dialect. 
That was instituted in 1516. 
Gaza is the perfect definition of a ghetto, which has a terrible irony. 
 

Hope that raises the intellectual level of this debate and doesn’t cause any brain aches !

 

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

They can fuel their rockets , but not their generators/ hospitals .

Sounds about right 

 

That well known generator fuel.. rocket fuel.  Righto.

[Mikey1874]

Such a shame Donald Trump isn't around to sort it all out. 

[Mikey1874]

The Channel 4 News report shows a lot of dead bodies under covers. Maybe 50. It is true Muslims bury their dead quickly. 471 dead according to Hamas controlled Health Ministry but not confirmed. Some people have said all media in Gaza is controlled by Hamas too. In contrast to their promise not much light shed on it by Channel 4 News.  Said "there is no proof..." a few times. 

 

They did say "impossible to carry out any independent verification". Mortor strike evidence and superficial damage, but could be air burst munition which can also be very bad. Looked at video and the Israeli information which was questioned as not credible and gave examples where Israel killed people but initially denied it. Hamas do say they have the missile. 

 

Concluded by saying needs independent evaluation. No shit Sherlock. 

[vegas-voss]

At least according to Biden there will be a period of time to allow aid in with medical supplies and water.

[doctor jambo]

17 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

That well known generator fuel.. rocket fuel.  Righto.

Turns out you can use it .😇

 

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

At least according to Biden there will be a period of time to allow aid in with medical supplies and water.

 

From Egypt.

 

Nothing from Israel until all hostages released.

[vegas-voss]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

The Channel 4 News report shows a lot of dead bodies under covers. Maybe 50. It is true Muslims bury their dead quickly. 471 dead according to Hamas controlled Health Ministry but not confirmed. Some people have said all media in Gaza is controlled by Hamas too. In contrast to their promise not much light shed on it by Channel 4 News.  Said "there is no proof..." a few times. 

 

They did say "impossible to carry out any independent verification". Mortor strike evidence and superficial damage, but could be air burst munition which can also be very bad. Looked at video and the Israeli information which was questioned as not credible and gave examples where Israel killed people but initially denied it. Hamas do say they have the missile. 

 

Concluded by saying needs independent evaluation. No shit Sherlock. 

Seen a few analyst discussing things today and they were all the same opinion - it doesn't matter now if it is proved Israel did or didn't do it to the Arab world they have already decided they did and won't change their mind.

[vegas-voss]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

From Egypt.

 

Nothing from Israel until all hostages released.

Aye but Israel are letting them come in.Well I would think they have pretty much been told let them come in.

[JyTees]

14 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Seen a few analyst discussing things today and they were all the same opinion - it doesn't matter now if it is proved Israel did or didn't do it to the Arab world they have already decided they did and won't change their mind.

 

There in lies the problem. Hamas have a captive audience willing to believe anything. 

 

Some of their audience appear to post on KB.

[Mikey1874]

 

14 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Seen a few analyst discussing things today and they were all the same opinion - it doesn't matter now if it is proved Israel did or didn't do it to the Arab world they have already decided they did and won't change their mind.

 

Was fantastic for Hamas etc. Even cancelled the Joe Biden meeting which was remarkable.

 

Of course the intense suffering for ordinary Palestinians an afterthought. 

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

It’s an interesting point and I went to Wilkipedia to find out why. In ten years 25 Israeli civilians had been killed by 1000s of rockets fired into Israel. The reason they do it is more symbolic to create fear than to do damage. If 25 people have died in 10 years of rockets then I have my doubts if one rocket could kill 500 people at a hospital.

 

Two problems I see with your analysis here is that the 500 figure is widely disputed. And Israel have a sophisticated missile defense system that will limit the damages significantly. Some deaths occur from the debris of intercepted rockets for example, but these are miniscule versus the consequences of not intercepting.

[Unknown user]

48 minutes ago, Boab said:

The word, ghetto, comes from the Italian, and meant where the Jews lived in the city. Derived from ghèto, where the Venetians put the Jews in a separate part of the city that was used as a foundry, ghèto in dialect. 
That was instituted in 1516. 
Gaza is the perfect definition of a ghetto, which has a terrible irony. 
 

Hope that raises the intellectual level of this debate and doesn’t cause any brain aches !

 

 

👍

[Ked]

38 minutes ago, Boab said:

The word, ghetto, comes from the Italian, and meant where the Jews lived in the city. Derived from ghèto, where the Venetians put the Jews in a separate part of the city that was used as a foundry, ghèto in dialect. 
That was instituted in 1516. 
Gaza is the perfect definition of a ghetto, which has a terrible irony. 
 

Hope that raises the intellectual level of this debate and doesn’t cause any brain aches 

There's some great stuff and there's good posts.

And you are spot on to bring history into this.

Jewish people have a long history of persecution .

But it doesn't allow them to persecute.

But you cannot deny or sorry I cannot deny I feel their side.

As I do the Gaza population

Imagine I'd lost directly through passed down warning and lived reality.

 

[Ked]

1 minute ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Two problems I see with your analysis here is that the 500 figure is widely disputed. And Israel have a sophisticated missile defense system that will limit the damages significantly. Some deaths occur from the debris of intercepted rockets for example, but these are miniscule versus the consequences of not intercepting.

Guid posts from yersel the day mate.

 

Leave you all to it.

I've had a few sherberts .

 

[Mikey1874]

 

[AlphonseCapone]

I speaking about this last night so I'll put it to the JKB collective. What is it about Israel/Palestine that induces such strong feelings in people who are nowhere near the place nor have any indirect association (via religion or family)?

 

I'm not asking that in a critical way, it's purely from an academic perspective. It's not the deaths because there are events across the globe with significant deaths that don't elicit the same division. There's a known phenomena where emotional sentiment increases the closer an event takes place to you or the more like you the people are, but that's not it either I wouldn't say. It's not a David versus Goliath thing as people aren't on just one side.

 

It feels unique the way it causes such visceral reaction across the globe, and I'm curious if anyone has theories why.

[Boab]

The worry about this is the rapid reaction from the US and others. In previous outbreaks of violence, the reactions were predictable from both sides but this feels different. Biden’s visit seems to confirm this. The timing seems deliberate and the sounds coming from Iran, for example, are extremely concerning for the whole planet. I fear an escalation from the North. America realises Israel is in trouble and will pull out all the stops to stop them really losing their shit. If they do…well, it doesn’t bear thinking about.

[Mikey1874]

2 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

I speaking about this last night so I'll put it to the JKB collective. What is it about Israel/Palestine that induces such strong feelings in people who are nowhere near the place nor have any indirect association (via religion or family)?

 

I'm not asking that in a critical way, it's purely from an academic perspective. It's not the deaths because there are events across the globe with significant deaths that don't elicit the same division. There's a known phenomena where emotional sentiment increases the closer an event takes place to you or the more like you the people are, but that's not it either I wouldn't say. It's not a David versus Goliath thing as people aren't on just one side.

 

It feels unique the way it causes such visceral reaction across the globe, and I'm curious if anyone has theories why.

 

I'd say from my perspective is the historical unprecedented treatment of the Palestinians being kicked of their country/land and then anyone that visits the area sees what life is like for those remaining.

 

An element of left wing politics comes in but that is a factor that doesn't influence most people.

 

But it's not a top issue for people. Overall especially last 10 years the issue had been forgotten. 

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Boab said:

The worry about this is the rapid reaction from the US and others. In previous outbreaks of violence, the reactions were predictable from both sides but this feels different. Biden’s visit seems to confirm this. The timing seems deliberate and the sounds coming from Iran, for example, are extremely concerning for the whole planet. I fear an escalation from the North. America realises Israel is in trouble and will pull out all the stops to stop them really losing their shit. If they do…well, it doesn’t bear thinking about.

 

The effects of Palestinian support in a lot of countries is unpredictable. A lot of Governments will fall if this is not contained quickly. 

[vegas-voss]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

So the US despite Biden standing there like a hero voted against aid ?

[Boab]

5 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

I speaking about this last night so I'll put it to the JKB collective. What is it about Israel/Palestine that induces such strong feelings in people who are nowhere near the place nor have any indirect association (via religion or family)?

 

I'm not asking that in a critical way, it's purely from an academic perspective. It's not the deaths because there are events across the globe with significant deaths that don't elicit the same division. There's a known phenomena where emotional sentiment increases the closer an event takes place to you or the more like you the people are, but that's not it either I wouldn't say. It's not a David versus Goliath thing as people aren't on just one side.

 

It feels unique the way it causes such visceral reaction across the globe, and I'm curious if anyone has theories why.

I posted earlier in the thread about the perpetrators of just about every major terrorist attack, citing the Palestinians’ situation as partly a reason for their actions. That has resulted in attacks in the US, here, and many other cities around the world. Maybe it’s that fear that this can potentially cause, that’s a reason for the involvement, emotional or otherwise.

[vegas-voss]

4 minutes ago, Boab said:

The worry about this is the rapid reaction from the US and others. In previous outbreaks of violence, the reactions were predictable from both sides but this feels different. Biden’s visit seems to confirm this. The timing seems deliberate and the sounds coming from Iran, for example, are extremely concerning for the whole planet. I fear an escalation from the North. America realises Israel is in trouble and will pull out all the stops to stop them really losing their shit. If they do…well, it doesn’t bear thinking about.

But the US must have realised this would happen before now.

[VALDOS']

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Such a shame Donald Trump isn't around to sort it all out. 

Today's live meeting with Israel would have been far more entertaining that's for sure 

[Boab]

Just now, vegas-voss said:

But the US must have realised this would happen before now.

Maybe their eye was off the ball, although that is unlikely. Maybe an over reliance on Shin Bet to relay info…possibly.

[Hagar the Horrible]

1 hour ago, Sooperstar said:

 

Didn't expect to get wine recommendations out of this thread but I've just ordered a bottle of 2017.

Get it to room temperature decanter it, drink it all by yourself 

[Cruyff]

Putin's announcement today was a slight escalation. Russia have sent their long range bombers within firing range of US aircraft carriers in the Med. Pretty serious posturing. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

What we do know is that the IDF kill Palestinians at will. Massacres on their part are nothing new. Israel was born out of Zionist terrorism such as the Deir Yassin massacre and the kidnap and murder of two British troops, with their bodies left booby-trapped with explosives.

 

Israel is a super power compared to what is left of the Palestinian state. Even if this hospital catastrophe does turn out to be a rogue missile from some Jihad group, the BBC itself is reporting more than 1000 child deaths in Palestine since Israeil retribution.

 

The truth is, the Israelis themselves are not free. Every adult Israeli is armed and they live their lives in fear of attacks from the Palestinian enclaves/ prisons. Surely it's in their interest to make peace too? But, peace can't be made without some agreement on land rights and power sharing. Like Gabor Mate says, it's ridiculous of him being allowed to land in Tel Aviv and get given automatic citizenship as a European Jew after "2000 years" but his Palestinian friend who was born in Jerusalem can't return after only 70 years.

Pretty hard to make peace with an organisation that wants to wipe you off the face of the planet.

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

The Channel 4 News report shows a lot of dead bodies under covers. Maybe 50. It is true Muslims bury their dead quickly. 471 dead according to Hamas controlled Health Ministry but not confirmed. Some people have said all media in Gaza is controlled by Hamas too. In contrast to their promise not much light shed on it by Channel 4 News.  Said "there is no proof..." a few times. 

 

They did say "impossible to carry out any independent verification". Mortor strike evidence and superficial damage, but could be air burst munition which can also be very bad. Looked at video and the Israeli information which was questioned as not credible and gave examples where Israel killed people but initially denied it. Hamas do say they have the missile. 

 

Concluded by saying needs independent evaluation. No shit Sherlock. 

To be fair, Channel 4 news sounded pretty gutted they couldn't report on an Israeli atrocity that killed hundreds and instead had to focus on a  Hamas **** up.

Still, I'm sure they'll be working as hard as they can with Hamas propaganda team to turn this round.

Watch it for yourselves before deciding.

[Mikey1874]

55 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

So the US despite Biden standing there like a hero voted against aid ?

 

Seems US and UK wanted an unequivocal condemnation and that Israel has the right of defence. 

[Sooperstar]

57 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Get it to room temperature decanter it, drink it all by yourself 

I was going to put it on the Christmas Dinner table.

 

That wine is really good. 

 

Oh, it's just a little Lebanese I picked up. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Sooperstar

[Malinga the Swinga]

57 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

I speaking about this last night so I'll put it to the JKB collective. What is it about Israel/Palestine that induces such strong feelings in people who are nowhere near the place nor have any indirect association (via religion or family)?

 

I'm not asking that in a critical way, it's purely from an academic perspective. It's not the deaths because there are events across the globe with significant deaths that don't elicit the same division. There's a known phenomena where emotional sentiment increases the closer an event takes place to you or the more like you the people are, but that's not it either I wouldn't say. It's not a David versus Goliath thing as people aren't on just one side.

 

It feels unique the way it causes such visceral reaction across the globe, and I'm curious if anyone has theories why.

I'd say that's it's the complete buy in from certain quarters that anything done to Israel is there own fault and that Palestine is some sort of Mecca for peace loving folk who wouldn't hurt a fly.

There's a glee in their comments celebrating Israeli deaths as being justified while retaliation by Israel is seen as uncalled for and really they should turn the other cheek.

Israel is the side that would have peace, were making progress in talks with Arab nations when along came Iran and their pet attack dogs in Hamas with the sole intention of stirring up tension again.

Palestine has received billions in aid in last few years yet it's people live in poverty. Israel didn't take the funds, it is their Hamas government who trouser the cash for arms and their own personal gains. That's nobodies fault in the West, it's 100% a Palestine problem that only Arab nations can resolve. They don't want to though as it would only stir up bother at home with their religious leaders only to quick to pick up Quran and quote fables as justification why they have Allah's backing.

Very clever the Qur'an with it's 'Islam is last religion' use. Anything before it isn't decried, it's just overtaken while any religion after it is not true as Islam last religion.

If only person who'd written bible had stuck 'christianity is last religion'' in last page of Revelations, this could all have been avoided 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

I speaking about this last night so I'll put it to the JKB collective. What is it about Israel/Palestine that induces such strong feelings in people who are nowhere near the place nor have any indirect association (via religion or family)?

 

I'm not asking that in a critical way, it's purely from an academic perspective. It's not the deaths because there are events across the globe with significant deaths that don't elicit the same division. There's a known phenomena where emotional sentiment increases the closer an event takes place to you or the more like you the people are, but that's not it either I wouldn't say. It's not a David versus Goliath thing as people aren't on just one side.

 

It feels unique the way it causes such visceral reaction across the globe, and I'm curious if anyone has theories why.

 

It's been bubbling away forever, and the more you learn, the more horrific it gets. Chances are you're told the story from one side's perspective, and the decades of inhumanity towards them is upsetting.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

5 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

Looks like humanitarian aid might start flowing into Gaza via Egypt. The US seems to have got Israel to allow this to happen.

 

Only if the Israelis are convinced its not going to Hamas so most likely none will enter Gaza.

[Homme]

5 minutes ago, Doctor FinnBarr said:

 

Only if the Israelis are convinced its not going to Hamas so most likely none will enter Gaza.

 

Hamas fighters will be given priority on any aid that comes in you can take that to the bank.

 

I mean Gaza has run out of food, water, medicine and fuel within a week but the rockets keep leaving. There's Hamas' contempt for their own people right there.

[doctor jambo]

There are 15 million Jews globally.

7 million in israel

6 million in the USA

2 million everywhere else.

The holocaust wiped 6 million.

Is it any wonder they fight like a trapped tiger.

Their enemies vastly outnumber them , and have actually stated they want to wipe them out .

They will, literally , fight to the end, because if they lose Israel, the islamists will slaughter them all.

[Cade]

20 trucks of aid  isn't going to go far between the 2 million inhabitants.

[the posh bit]

1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I'd say that's it's the complete buy in from certain quarters that anything done to Israel is there own fault and that Palestine is some sort of Mecca for peace loving folk who wouldn't hurt a fly.

 

 

Any links or evidence of the peace-loving Palestinians hurting flies? Just one will do. 

[Ked]

29 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

There are 15 million Jews globally.

7 million in israel

6 million in the USA

2 million everywhere else.

The holocaust wiped 6 million.

Is it any wonder they fight like a trapped tiger.

Their enemies vastly outnumber them , and have actually stated they want to wipe them out .

They will, literally , fight to the end, because if they lose Israel, the islamists will slaughter them all.

I keep saying it.

They won't be accused of letting it happen again that's the rock of Israel.

Jewish people's have suffered centuries of prejudice and injustice .