Israel and Palestine

[JDK2020]

4 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

The UK has many faults, including how our govts responded to the troubles in Northern Ireland, often aggravating the situation which was of course precisely the aim of the terrorists. 

But there was never any plan to go in and flatten the place or parts of it where known terrorists were operating because our authorities operated within a recognised code of conduct. Far from perfect and not always adhered to but the boundaries were pretty clear even if it restricted capacity to tackle the terrorists. 

I sympathise with Israel. They've been under attack since the state was created so i can understand why they go in hard but with the technology available to them today there was absolutely no need for the approach currently being taken. Netanyahu has set the country back generations and probably destroyed any chance of a peaceful settlement in our lifetime. Which is of course what Hamas and their sponsors wanted. 

 

I don't think there will be peace there in ANYBODY's lifetime. Israel are going nowhere and the sponsors of Hamas, or whatever other entity is established in their place, will continue to fund terrorism from the safety of their own luxury pads. 

[joondalupjambo]

All good Hamas fighter on top of one of the aid trucks so legitimate attack.

IDF spokesman saying that British killing in Libya by RAF never investigated so blah, blah, blah, moral high ground blah, blah blah.

Civilians being killed in Gaza too near Hamas fighters so there fault.

IDF have evidence that 15000 out of the 30000 killed are Hamas fighters, well not evidence but we know that is the case.

Gaza a different conflict, you British do not understand how it is being fought.

The guy saying all this live on TV needs to be employed by Celtic as their PR consultant in relation to their court cases.  Top man, he would run rings round the prosecution lawyers.

 

Question is how much of this is true?

Israel has to go after Hamas for sure but at what cost.  It appears to be at any cost based on this guy.  Julien somebody or another.

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

2 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

All good Hamas fighter on top of one of the aid trucks so legitimate attack.

IDF spokesman saying that British killing in Libya by RAF never investigated so blah, blah, blah, moral high ground blah, blah blah.

Civilians being killed in Gaza too near Hamas fighters so there fault.

IDF have evidence that 15000 out of the 30000 killed are Hamas fighters, well not evidence but we know that is the case.

Gaza a different conflict, you British do not understand how it is being fought.

The guy saying all this live on TV needs to be employed by Celtic as their PR consultant in relation to their court cases.  Top man, he would run rings round the prosecution lawyers.

 

Question is how much of this is true?

Israel has to go after Hamas for sure but at what cost.  It appears to be at any cost based on this guy.  Julien somebody or another.

 

 

 

 

They've sacked some guys for doing their job.

 

They genuinely thought a Hamas guy was in the car. The issue of not being able to see the charity's logo is more of a concern since Israel has all the best equipment.

 

Their statement doesn't make a lot of sense in saying the 2 subsequent attacks were wrong. Did they see the supposed Hamas guy run away?

 

Seems like blaming lower ranked soldiers for the overall policy of 'shoot to kill and not care about civilians'. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

58 minutes ago, JDK2020 said:

 

I don't think there will be peace there in ANYBODY's lifetime. Israel are going nowhere and the sponsors of Hamas, or whatever other entity is established in their place, will continue to fund terrorism from the safety of their own luxury pads. 

However you cut it, the trigger for all these deaths was what Hamas did on Oct 7. Their fault.

 

It’s the old **** around, find out graph.

 

 

[joondalupjambo]

33 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

They've sacked some guys for doing their job.

 

They genuinely thought a Hamas guy was in the car. The issue of not being able to see the charity's logo is more of a concern since Israel has all the best equipment.

 

Their statement doesn't make a lot of sense in saying the 2 subsequent attacks were wrong. Did they see the supposed Hamas guy run away?

 

Seems like blaming lower ranked soldiers for the overall policy of 'shoot to kill and not care about civilians'. 

From BBC News website:-

 

"The brigade fire support commander - an officer with the rank of major - and the brigade chief of staff - an officer with the rank of colonel in reserve - will both be dismissed from their positions, the IDF says.

It says the brigade commander and the 162nd division commander will be "formally reprimanded".

The commander of the southern command will be "formally reprimanded for his overall responsibility for the incident", the statement adds".

 

Also been admitted that higher level decisions in relation to agreements with the charitable organisation in question not all getting down to operational levels.  Why is that then?  Surely not that hard in todays world of high tech communications.

[The Observer]

Rights are enshrined in law.

 

I haven't been able to identify that law that states "Israel has the right to defend itself". I can show you where it say that Hamas are allowed to take up arms against their oppressors though.

 

Just a thought.

[Mikey1874]

Seems that Israel is raging at Britain's  complaining at the aid convoy deaths. Senior people say Britain has gone too far. 

 

Maybe won't be close allies for too long. 

[SectionDJambo]

Am I right in thinking that we're being told that the thought process was that they weren't sure if Hamas individuals were in these vehicles, so they decided to blow them up, anyway, just to make sure? Then they had another go at the survivors of the initial attacks as they ran to warn the others. This despite having been given advanced, acknowledged, notice of the movements of the aid workers.

Can we really believe their claims that they have tried to minimise innocent civilian casualties over the last 6 months, when they have acted in this way, this time. It sounds like there are units of the IDF who are out of control and disobeying instructions from their commanders, or being given the green light by their commanders to engage in that way. 

Their only mistake, this time, seems to have been that they killed 7 foreign national aid workers in one go and couldn't avoid the publicly.

It really doesn't create the impression that the IDF and Israeli intelligence service are as clever as we are told to believe. Ruthless, yes. Competent, no.

[Francis Albert]

5 hours ago, joondalupjambo said:

From BBC News website:-

 

"The brigade fire support commander - an officer with the rank of major - and the brigade chief of staff - an officer with the rank of colonel in reserve - will both be dismissed from their positions, the IDF says.

It says the brigade commander and the 162nd division commander will be "formally reprimanded".

The commander of the southern command will be "formally reprimanded for his overall responsibility for the incident", the statement adds".

 

Also been admitted that higher level decisions in relation to agreements with the charitable organisation in question not all getting down to operational levels.  Why is that then?  Surely not that hard in todays world of high tech communications.

You have a higher opinion of the efficiency of "today's world of high tech communicatios" than I have. I am not sure communication in the heat of war today will be that much better than field telephones in WW1.

In my civilian experience the more "high tech" things are the more things can go wrong.

[Francis Albert]

5 hours ago, The Observer said:

Rights are enshrined in law.

 

I haven't been able to identify that law that states "Israel has the right to defend itself". I can show you where it say that Hamas are allowed to take up arms against their oppressors though.

 

Just a thought.

Nations don't have the right to defend themselves when attacked?  There is an issue around proportionality but surely not on the principle.

[i wish jj was my dad]

7 hours ago, JDK2020 said:

 

I don't think there will be peace there in ANYBODY's lifetime. Israel are going nowhere and the sponsors of Hamas, or whatever other entity is established in their place, will continue to fund terrorism from the safety of their own luxury pads. 

Probably right but the dial has been put back decades if not generations.  I'm far from optimistic but nobody foresaw the Berlin wall falling, the collapse of the USSR and Warsaw Pact or the Good Friday Agreement.  There might never be a satisfactory solution but what we are seeing ATM is taking us in completely the wrong direction.

[The Observer]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Nations don't have the right to defend themselves when attacked?  There is an issue around proportionality but surely not on the principle.

 

Not if that nation is being attacked by the inhabitants of the land it occupies, no.

[henrysmithsgloves]

Might get out of hand😳

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iran-to-retaliate-israeli-bombing-syria-consulate-officials-believe/

[JDK2020]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Probably right but the dial has been put back decades if not generations.  I'm far from optimistic but nobody foresaw the Berlin wall falling, the collapse of the USSR and Warsaw Pact or the Good Friday Agreement.  There might never be a satisfactory solution but what we are seeing ATM is taking us in completely the wrong direction.

 

Hope springs eternal they say, and I'd love to see it happen over there, but attitudes and heads are too far stuck in the sand.

[i wish jj was my dad]

8 minutes ago, JDK2020 said:

 

Hope springs eternal they say, and I'd love to see it happen over there, but attitudes and heads are too far stuck in the sand.

Again, I think you are right but digging in and bombing the shite out if each other only risks expanding the conflict. I remember John major saying it turned his stomach talking to the IRA but he was big enough to know he had to. Israel is still just about a recognised democracy but that will change if they don't empty the Netanyahu mob sharpish and regain some form of credibility in the international stage.  Behaving properly doesn't equate to appeasement. I'm no military expert but the IDF seem perfectly capable of taking out bad guys without massive collateral damage

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, The Observer said:

 

Not if that nation is being attacked by the inhabitants of the land it occupies, no.

In a strong competition you win the prize as the most naive or historically ill informed post on this thread. Or possibly even on this board. But not untypical of Hamas "useful idiots".

 

 

 

[The Observer]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

In a strong competition you win the prize as the most naive or historically ill informed post on this thread. Or possibly even on this board. But not untypical of Hamas "useful idiots".

 

 

 

Bitter subjectivity rarely wins an argument, Francis. I'm waiting on 81 points in the Orlando Magic game for a nice win. I'm focussing on that just now. Have a happy night.

[Diadora Van Basten]

Owen Jones asked why he care for Palestinians by Zionist.

 

Owen replies “Because I’m a human being”

 

 

[Boab]

The last few days have revealed how our media operate. The aid workers’ deaths were desperately sad but every innocent life in this conflict is desperately sad.

It will never happen but maybe if the media showed the true picture and screened it nightly, real progress to resolving this would take place.

They won’t of course because it would expose a lot of people. 
It was ever thus.

[il Duce McTarkin]

The IDF are callous, murdering, scum *******s.

 

The chosen people.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

3 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Owen Jones asked why he care for Palestinians by Zionist.

 

Owen replies “Because I’m a human being”

 

 

Owen Jones is a total prick

[XB52]

2 hours ago, Boab said:

The last few days have revealed how our media operate. The aid workers’ deaths were desperately sad but every innocent life in this conflict is desperately sad.

It will never happen but maybe if the media showed the true picture and screened it nightly, real progress to resolving this would take place.

They won’t of course because it would expose a lot of people. 
It was ever thus.

It's so sad that hundreds of aid workers have been killed by the Israelis and nobody gives a toss. 3 brits and a yank get killed and suddenly the West realises that maybe, just maybe, the zionists are out of control. This genocide is now just a game to keep Netanyahu in his job and out of jail. Who cares if millions of Palestinians suffer

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, XB52 said:

It's so sad that hundreds of aid workers have been killed by the Israelis and nobody gives a toss. 3 brits and a yank get killed and suddenly the West realises that maybe, just maybe, the zionists are out of control. This genocide is now just a game to keep Netanyahu in his job and out of jail. Who cares if millions of Palestinians suffer

True about Netanyahu. He’s fecked when this is all over.

 

Wars have casualties though. I don’t know what classes as proportionate tbh

[Diadora Van Basten]

45 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

True about Netanyahu. He’s fecked when this is all over.

 

Wars have casualties though. I don’t know what classes as proportionate tbh

It’s not really a war though. Gaza is not a country and doesn’t have an army. It’s ethnic cleansing and Genocide carried out by a Coloniser. 
 

The foreign aid workers who were killed by Israel represent the best qualities of humanity they were brave and selfless. Those who killed them represent the worst qualities of humanity they are cowards, dishonest and selfish.

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Owen Jones is a total prick

Exactly, quoting him is as bad as quoting the daily mail.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

It’s not really a war though. Gaza is not a country and doesn’t have an army. It’s ethnic cleansing and Genocide carried out by a Coloniser. 
 

The foreign aid workers who were killed by Israel represent the best qualities of humanity they were brave and selfless. Those who killed them represent the worst qualities of humanity they are cowards, dishonest and selfish.

It has thousands of armed militants so what you’re saying is meaningless semantics.

 

Hamas try to fade into the population. The population is then at risk. Which is somehow Israel’s fault.

[Diadora Van Basten]

40 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It has thousands of armed militants so what you’re saying is meaningless semantics.

 

Hamas try to fade into the population. The population is then at risk. Which is somehow Israel’s fault.

The Lavender AI system that Israel uses is programmed to allow killing 20 civilians for one low level target and 100 civilians for one high level target.

 

The where’s Daddy system tracks the operative until they are in their homes with their families and then Israel bomb them using dumb bombs.

 

The AI system has a 10% error rate.

 

The Lavender system identified 36,000 targets and if you multiple this by the allowable 20 citizens then 720,000 are at risk or 1/3 of the population of Gaza.

 

 

[Diadora Van Basten]

9 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Owen Jones is a total prick

If you are interested in getting to the truth on Gaza and Israel then Owen and his various interviews of experts on the subject are an invaluable source.

If you just like to parrot the mainstream media narrative without engaging your brain then he’s probably not for you.

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Jim_Duncan said:

 

I'd like proof.

He’s awful . Jumps on more band wagons than Sturgeon or Humza have . He’s currently reinventing himself as an Indy supporter as I think every man and their dug in old smokie are seek fed up with him . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

If you are interested in getting to the truth on Gaza and Israel then Owen and his various interviews of experts on the subject are an invaluable source.

If you just like to parrot the mainstream media narrative without engaging your brain then he’s probably not for you.

 

Sorry mate but he’s awful . Very abrasive and said some awful things about Germany yesterday too in relation to Israel 

[Diadora Van Basten]

9 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Sorry mate but he’s awful . Very abrasive and said some awful things about Germany yesterday too in relation to Israel 

He said that Germany has made the Palestinians pay for their guilt. 100% correct.

 

Germany have said they will support Israel in their court case in the International Court of Justice against the charge of Genocide. 

This is a case that even the Israeli judge had found Israel guilty of a plausible case of Genocide.

 

The final decision is likely to take a couple of years to reach but so far Israel has ignored all the instructions from the court to stop committing Genocide so a verdict of Genocide is inevitable. 
 

I would add that Germany was one of the few Israeli allies that did not lose a citizen in the recent foreign aid strikes and that the German leader did not even mention that it was Israel who killed the aid workers.
 

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

35 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

He’s awful . Jumps on more band wagons than Sturgeon or Humza have . He’s currently reinventing himself as an Indy supporter as I think every man and their dug in old smokie are seek fed up with him . 

he’s an extreme narcissist and a thick ***** to boot. Proper student politics type who has long had a weird and unhealthy obsession with Israel.

 

Not sure I’ve ever seen anyone so committed to making everything about them.

[JimmyCant]

11 hours ago, Jim_Duncan said:

TBF, if there's a nation that kens its onions on genocide, it's the Krauts. Maybe get a second opinion from the Rwandans.

Bomber Harris would have flattened Gaza in 3 nights

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Bomber Harris would have flattened Gaza in 3 nights

 

 

 

[That thing you do]

On 05/04/2024 at 00:10, i wish jj was my dad said:

The UK has many faults, including how our govts responded to the troubles in Northern Ireland, often aggravating the situation which was of course precisely the aim of the terrorists. 

But there was never any plan to go in and flatten the place or parts of it where known terrorists were operating because our authorities operated within a recognised code of conduct. Far from perfect and not always adhered to but the boundaries were pretty clear even if it restricted capacity to tackle the terrorists. 

I sympathise with Israel. They've been under attack since the state was created so i can understand why they go in hard but with the technology available to them today there was absolutely no need for the approach currently being taken. Netanyahu has set the country back generations and probably destroyed any chance of a peaceful settlement in our lifetime. Which is of course what Hamas and their sponsors wanted. 

I sympathize with Palestine.

 

The very reason Israel has been under attack is it has systematically occupied Palestine including ignoring previous lines drawn up by the UN to the point that hardly any is left. Palestinians face checkpoints, harassment, lack of food and lack of freedom.

 

And you feel sorry for Israel because Palestinians do the only thing any oppressed people ever does? Fight back?

 

Ah but Israel says Hamas wants it wiped off the map. Could that be because Israel have to all intents and purpose wiped Palestine off the map?

 

Israel are the aggressor and oppressor here. What hamas did was horrific but it didn't happen in isolation. It's a consequence of turning Gaza into a prison.

 

They only way to solve this is a two state solution.

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 hours ago, That thing you do said:

They only way to solve this is a two state solution.

Everyone knows this. Problem is neither side will give an inch to the other, neither side trusts the other and unless Iran and US agree to whatever settlement is proposed, it has zero chance of success.

[Francis Albert]

20 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

He said that Germany has made the Palestinians pay for their guilt. 100% correct.

 

Germany have said they will support Israel in their court case in the International Court of Justice against the charge of Genocide. 

This is a case that even the Israeli judge had found Israel guilty of a plausible case of Genocide.

 

The final decision is likely to take a couple of years to reach but so far Israel has ignored all the instructions from the court to stop committing Genocide so a verdict of Genocide is inevitable. 
 

I would add that Germany was one of the few Israeli allies that did not lose a citizen in the recent foreign aid strikes and that the German leader did not even mention that it was Israel who killed the aid workers.
 

 

A plausible case to be made does not constitute a guilty verdict. See the definition of plausible.

 

[Diadora Van Basten]

7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

A plausible case to be made does not constitute a guilty verdict. See the definition of plausible.

 

The final verdict on Genocide won’t be for about two years. Until then a plausible guilty verdict is the highest that can be achieved.

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/gaza-icj-ruling-offers-hope-protection-civilians-enduring-apocalyptic#:~:text=The ICJ found it plausible,under siege in Gaza%2C and

[Francis Albert]

19 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

The final verdict on Genocide won’t be for about two years. Until then a plausible guilty verdict is the highest that can be achieved.

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/gaza-icj-ruling-offers-hope-protection-civilians-enduring-apocalyptic#:~:text=The ICJ found it plausible,under siege in Gaza%2C and

There is no plausible guilty verdict. There is a plausible case to be made. Not at all the same thing.

Edited April 7 by Francis Albert

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

There is no plausible guilty verdict. There is a plausible case to be made. Not at all the same thing.

Diadora’s desperate.

 

Lapping up Owen Jones faux expressions of outrage at whichever cause he knows nothing about sells his YouTube next.

 

Jones has never even been to the Middle East, the ****ing pansy

[Ked]

22 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

He said that Germany has made the Palestinians pay for their guilt. 100% correct.

 

Germany have said they will support Israel in their court case in the International Court of Justice against the charge of Genocide. 

This is a case that even the Israeli judge had found Israel guilty of a plausible case of Genocide.

 

The final decision is likely to take a couple of years to reach but so far Israel has ignored all the instructions from the court to stop committing Genocide so a verdict of Genocide is inevitable. 
 

I would add that Germany was one of the few Israeli allies that did not lose a citizen in the recent foreign aid strikes and that the German leader did not even mention that it was Israel who killed the aid workers.
 

 

I don't want to argue with you.

Much of your posting comes from the heart and I like that.

But you must understand German sentiment on this.

Even if its misguided its almost the right thing in a way .

No?

[ehcaley]

Looks like events in Gaza are moving rapidly ,IDF leaving the South.

[Diadora Van Basten]

A picture paints a thousand words! Pink shows the number of women and children killed.

 

We could more than fill Tynecastle with the number of woman and children killed by Israel.

 

Edited April 8 by Diadora Van Basten

[Bindy Badgy]

3 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

A picture paints a thousand words! Pink shows the number of women and children killed.

 

We could more than fill Tynecastle with the number of woman and children killed by Israel.

 

 

Why are women and children massively over-represented in the figures?

[manaliveits105]

Hamas run health ministry figures 

[Seymour M Hersh]

The son of a Hamas co-founder has spoken out against pro-Palestine activists in the United States, branding them 'useful idiots.'

 

[Diadora Van Basten]

37 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Hamas run health ministry figures 

As of 26 October 2023, the Gaza Health Ministry (GHM) was the sole official source of data on Palestinian casualties in Gaza during the 2023 Israel-Hamas war,^[5] although these numbers are also published by the West Bank-based Palestinian health ministry, which confirms them with its Gaza-based staff.^[4] The health ministry's numbers have historically been considered reliable by the United Nations, the World Health Organization, Human Rights Watch.^[6][7][8] The United States Department of State cited its numbers in a public report in March 2023.^[9]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry

[Diadora Van Basten]

53 minutes ago, Bindy Badgy said:

 

Why are women and children massively over-represented in the figures?

50% of the population of Gaza are children so if you are going to bomb Gaza then you are going to kill a lot of children.

[Francis Albert]

51 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Hamas run health ministry figures 

The BBC usually but not always qualifies the figures by referring to the" Hamas run" Health Ministry or Health Authorities but other media outlets and most of the internet traffic does not, including the  internet sources which form most of Diadora's posts. In a way it is redundant ... everything in Gaza is Hamas run.

 

PS apart from the "genocide" of course although Hamas plays a part!

Edited April 8 by Francis Albert

[Diadora Van Basten]

34 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

The son of a Hamas co-founder has spoken out against pro-Palestine activists in the United States, branding them 'useful idiots.'

 

The last time I heard the phrase useful idiot it was describing RFK jr as Israel’s useful idiot.

 

Having listened to him talk on the Israel Gaza conflict it’s a very accurate description.