***** The Hearts B super thread - Liam Fox confirmed as coach ******

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

If Smith gets a decent loan offer from a top half Championship team maybe. Otherwise he deserves a crack at the first team. Agreed he’s far too good for the LL.

Smith would give you at least a 7 out of 10 every week, unlike some of the current fringe players like Halliday, Ginnelly and GMS.

[happyjam]

1 hour ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

If Smith gets a decent loan offer from a top half Championship team maybe. Otherwise he deserves a crack at the first team. Agreed he’s far too good for the LL.

I thought the whole point of creating a B team (and the expense that goes with it) and playing in the Lowland league was so all our young guys trained and played together and we don’t have to send out players on loan.  

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Smith would give you at least a 7 out of 10 every week, unlike some of the current fringe players like Halliday, Ginnelly and GMS.

Maybe in the LL to toughen him up a wee bit.  I believe at least two of the three above will be away before this transfer window closes.

[Niemi’s gloves]

2 hours ago, happyjam said:

I thought the whole point of creating a B team (and the expense that goes with it) and playing in the Lowland league was so all our young guys trained and played together and we don’t have to send out players on loan.  

Yesterday’s team was consistent with what I believe were the rules for guest teams last year: all players classed as U20 or younger except that the keeper and one outfield player could be U21. So yesterday, we had Stone and Smith in the squad, both born in 2002, but all others were born between 2003 and 2006.

 

If that is still the agreement (haven’t seen it officially confirmed or  contradicted anywhere) then it would only be possible to play only one of C. Smith, McGill and Logan in any LL game. On the other hand, Neilson (2003), Watson (2003) and Pollock (2004) are presumably all eligible as long as they haven’t played 5 first team games..

 

 

 

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

Maybe in the LL to toughen him up a wee bit.  I believe at least two of the three above will be away before this transfer window closes.

I would have thought that the last three seasons in L1 and L2 would toughen him up sufficiently. He certainly looks physically prepared for the first team.

[RobNox]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I would have thought that the last three seasons in L1 and L2 would toughen him up sufficiently. He certainly looks physically prepared for the first team.

I agree, while I'm not someone who regularly watches the younger age teams like yourself, one thing that struck me when I saw him recently is that he certainly seems to have bulked up a fair bit from what I remembered.  Looks more like a man than a wee boy.

[jamboinglasgow]

The way Smith has been talked about on here in the game reminds me a bit of waching the Hearts U19s first game of the season in the 2011/12 season (think it was either Motherwell or St Mirren they played.) And that match Jason Holt was way above every other player on the pitch. I remember thinking at the time he is a player who needs to be at a higher level (either first team or more reasonably on loan) for his development. But he stayed at U19, though went on loan for a month and a half to Raith Rovers. That loan was a disaster was he was used in a team not suited to his ability and style. While he has had a decent career, I do feel that had his development had been handled at the start of that season better he would have been an even better player than he was.

 

I do think there can be a crucial moment for a player where they need make the step up, clubs need to be take that or else they risk a player never fully developing. I hope Hearts are honest about how they want to use Connor Smith this season, as if there is a real chance of a decent amount of first team minutes then it makes sense for him to stay at Hearts B, but if not before January then he needs to play regular football in the Championship (at least till January.)

[Locky]

Absolutely gutted to learn the Spartans game is on Tuesday. Genuinely thought it was Wednesday and wanted to go, but can't make the Tuesday.

 

Off to Berlin for the weekend so missing the first team vs Ross County, but back on Wednesday afternoon so should make it to Rosewell for the Cowdenbeath game.

[RobNox]

5 hours ago, happyjam said:

I thought the whole point of creating a B team (and the expense that goes with it) and playing in the Lowland league was so all our young guys trained and played together and we don’t have to send out players on loan.  

I think the B team gives us a decent half way house.  If you take Connor Smith for example, Robbie talked about him pre-season after we'd extended his deal by another year and before we knew if we'd have a B team accepted into the LL, or if a reserve league might be established.

 

So at that that time, the options were to bring him into the first team squad or put him back out on loan.  Robbie said we'd look at him during pre-season then make a decision based on what we thought was best for his development.  Robbie was clear that there was no point bringing him into the first team squad if he was likely to be a bench filler who might get a bit of game time every now and again, as that wouldn't be best for his development.  In which case we might look to put him out on loan for 6 months at a decent Championship side then review things again in the next window.  The problems with putting a player out on loan is that there's no guarantee they will get regular game time and even if they do, they might be playing in a very different system to what Hearts aim to play.

 

The benefit I see to the B team is that young players like Connor and others who might be knocking at the door of the first team squad get to play in a team that sets up the same way as our first team, get to test themselves against more experienced players, and we can pull them into the first team squad if we need to for the odd game, say due to injuries and suspensions.  So they can possibly get a bit of first team experience now and again, while still playing regularly for the B team and training regularly with our experienced players.  I know there's a limit to the number of first team games a B team player can play before he become ineligible for the B team, but we'd still have the option to call on B team players now and then, which is better than them being out on loan when they'd not be available to us in cases of emergency.  

 

[Finlay James]

1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

The way Smith has been talked about on here in the game reminds me a bit of waching the Hearts U19s first game of the season in the 2011/12 season (think it was either Motherwell or St Mirren they played.) And that match Jason Holt was way above every other player on the pitch. I remember thinking at the time he is a player who needs to be at a higher level (either first team or more reasonably on loan) for his development. But he stayed at U19, though went on loan for a month and a half to Raith Rovers. That loan was a disaster was he was used in a team not suited to his ability and style. While he has had a decent career, I do feel that had his development had been handled at the start of that season better he would have been an even better player than he was.

 

I do think there can be a crucial moment for a player where they need make the step up, clubs need to be take that or else they risk a player never fully developing. I hope Hearts are honest about how they want to use Connor Smith this season, as if there is a real chance of a decent amount of first team minutes then it makes sense for him to stay at Hearts B, but if not before January then he needs to play regular football in the Championship (at least till January.)

I fear that Smith will go the same way.  We’re still looking to recruit to an area of the park that he plays and I’m not convinced that Robbie fully trusts that Connor can give us the level of quality and consistency required at our level.

 

His time is now and I’d rather see him (and Pollock) in the squad that Ginnelly, GMS etc.

[jamboinglasgow]

2 minutes ago, Finlay James said:

I fear that Smith will go the same way.  We’re still looking to recruit to an area of the park that he plays and I’m not convinced that Robbie fully trusts that Connor can give us the level of quality and consistency required at our level.

 

His time is now and I’d rather see him (and Pollock) in the squad that Ginnelly, GMS etc.

 

i agree with you there.

 

I understand Robbie's reasoning behind not playing youngsters until he thinks they are first team class. But I think this is where the club needs to decide what direction they want. If the club wants to produce young players then it requires the Sporting director to tell the manager when they need to have a certain player in the first team squad rather than a new signing. A lot of clubs with sporting directors will do this, as otherwise the manager will stick with tried and tested players rather than the uncertainty of a younger player. With the B team in place, Robbie no longer has the excuse that the players are not getting game time to be able to be up to speed in the first team.

[John Findlay]

12 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I would have thought that the last three seasons in L1 and L2 would toughen him up sufficiently. He certainly looks physically prepared for the first team.

Possibly, maybe the management have informed him do well in the B team, and we will bring you into the 1st team come January, or earlier if circumstances dictate. 

Anyways will get a look at them at Spartans tomorrow night.

[Jambo in Bathgate]

11 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

i agree with you there.

 

I understand Robbie's reasoning behind not playing youngsters until he thinks they are first team class. But I think this is where the club needs to decide what direction they want. If the club wants to produce young players then it requires the Sporting director to tell the manager when they need to have a certain player in the first team squad rather than a new signing. A lot of clubs with sporting directors will do this, as otherwise the manager will stick with tried and tested players rather than the uncertainty of a younger player. With the B team in place, Robbie no longer has the excuse that the players are not getting game time to be able to be up to speed in the first team.

The idea of the B team is they play the same style as the first team. It also means that those in the B team can be called upon when necessary. They are also around the first team when training. If players are loaned out they can’t be called upon and aren’t always picked by that team to play.

[HMFC01]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/spartans-boss-dougie-samuel-has-his-say-on-hearts-b-joining-lowland-league-3780003

 

Get them pumped... 

 

😀 

[HMFC01]

3 hours ago, Jambo in Bathgate said:

The idea of the B team is they play the same style as the first team. It also means that those in the B team can be called upon when necessary. They are also around the first team when training. If players are loaned out they can’t be called upon and aren’t always picked by that team to play.

 

Do we play 343 in the b team. 

 

@Footballfirst  Do we play 343 or 4231.

[TheBigO]

9 minutes ago, HMFC01 said:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/spartans-boss-dougie-samuel-has-his-say-on-hearts-b-joining-lowland-league-3780003

 

Get them pumped... 

 

😀

Don't know the bloke but to be fair, he's right.  This setup is us making the best of a shit situation and good on Hearts for pushing for it, but it isn't ideal by any manner of means.  The fact that clubs themselves essentially need to sort out games for any player over u18 is a disgrace but not a surprise.

 

Contrary to what Mr SpartansManager is saying, my issue is probaby that the level is too low for our young lads.  Not saying we'll run away with the league or that, but I htink it'd be of more benefit to have the team in the SPFL setup.

 

I also think there's work to be done if the colts thing is the path, in how the players can go from A to B and back again, perhaps also on the age restrictions (still not seen conf of these but I think u20 other than goalie and one other player who can be u21).  Most larger/more progressive leagues see development more until u23 I think.

 

I'm quite up for the B team thing but it needs done properly and the rules not dictated by bowling club secretaries.

[Footballfirst]

3 minutes ago, HMFC01 said:

 

Do we play 343 in the b team. 

 

@Footballfirst  Do we play 343 or 4231.

The system was pretty fluid as the midfielders kept rotating their positions, although they played with a firm back three, wing backs and a single striker 

 

On Saturday it was:

Stone

Back three of Rathie, Darge Gordon 

Wingbacks, Thomas and Dall 

Central midfield, a flexible diamond of Denholm, Smith, Tait and McLuckie

Striker Ferguson

 

Smith started the game in the anchor role but moved forward with Denholm, and later Tait sitting in. McLuckie was the most advanced of the four for most of the game, but Hearts profited most the further forward that Smith played

 

[HMFC01]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Don't know the bloke but to be fair, he's right.  This setup is us making the best of a shit situation and good on Hearts for pushing for it, but it isn't ideal by any manner of means.  The fact that clubs themselves essentially need to sort out games for any player over u18 is a disgrace but not a surprise.

 

Contrary to what Mr SpartansManager is saying, my issue is probaby that the level is too low for our young lads.  Not saying we'll run away with the league or that, but I htink it'd be of more benefit to have the team in the SPFL setup.

 

I also think there's work to be done if the colts thing is the path, in how the players can go from A to B and back again, perhaps also on the age restrictions (still not seen conf of these but I think u20 other than goalie and one other player who can be u21).  Most larger/more progressive leagues see development more until u23 I think.

 

I'm quite up for the B team thing but it needs done properly and the rules not dictated by bowling club secretaries.

Yeah I don't disagree with his or your assessment of the situation.   

 

I'd still be looking over to their dugout thinking (so you don't want us here, eh).  I'd be turning up fully switched on.   

 

Anyway, game is on Tuesday night, for anyone interested at Spartans.   I might go myself if it's not raining. 

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

The system was pretty fluid as the midfielders kept rotating their positions, although they played with a firm back three, wing backs and a single striker 

 

On Saturday it was:

Stone

Back three of Rathie, Darge Gordon 

Wingbacks, Thomas and Dall 

Central midfield, a flexible diamond of Denholm, Smith, Tait and McLuckie

Striker Ferguson

 

Smith started the game in the anchor role but moved forward with Denholm, and later Tait sitting in. McLuckie was the most advanced of the four for most of the game, but Hearts profited most the further forward that Smith played

 

 

Thanks.    That's an interesting rotation.    That's what you want though.    Plenty forward runs., lots of movment.    

 

The first team don't do that I think.   Although, Barrie McKay was covering RCB/LCB at times versus Stoke.  There's definitely players covering positions.   Almost a total football style with certain players that can fill several positions.    Example, M Smith, Haring,  Cochrane, Grant, Boyce,  Forrest, Mckay*, Sibbick, Neilson, Kingsley.    Decent list.    

 

Smith has a good many positions as well, good fit.    

[Footballfirst]

Here's a comprehensive report on Saturday's game.

 

https://awayonsaturday.blogspot.com/2022/07/hearts-b-6-0-berwick-rangers.html

[Hmfc1965]

3 hours ago, HMFC01 said:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/spartans-boss-dougie-samuel-has-his-say-on-hearts-b-joining-lowland-league-3780003

 

Get them pumped... 

 

😀

I don't see much wrong with that 

[Mikey1874]

We're in the league.

 

Don't really care what other Lowland League teams think. They should have organised themselves to stop the Colts happening last year. 

 

 

[HMFC01]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Here's a comprehensive report on Saturday's game.

 

https://awayonsaturday.blogspot.com/2022/07/hearts-b-6-0-berwick-rangers.html

 

Excellent report,  good photos.   Thank you. 

 

Stone getting worked was good to read. 

[Gulf Jambo]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Here's a comprehensive report on Saturday's game.

 

https://awayonsaturday.blogspot.com/2022/07/hearts-b-6-0-berwick-rangers.html

 

Personally I think that Connor Smith deserves a chance in the first team this season.

Definitely a talented lad

[Tasavallan]

You know what gets my OCD hackles up: 5 stars to the left and 9 stars to the right in the thread title.  

[Tasavallan]

1 hour ago, Gulf Jambo said:

 

Personally I think that Connor Smith deserves a chance in the first team this season.

Definitely a talented lad

I am sure FF will advice but is there rules set up for playing players registered for the B team in the senior team.  There are restrictions on age.   In Europe B teams are managed as separate entities.

[RobNox]

26 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

I am sure FF will advice but is there rules set up for playing players registered for the B team in the senior team.  There are restrictions on age.   In Europe B teams are managed as separate entities.

Unless they've changed the rules, my understanding is you can play B team players in the first team, but if they play 5 times in half a season for the first team, they are ineligible for the B team for the rest of that half season.

[The Natural Order]

Might be a stupid question but for the game at Spartans tomorrow do you need to pre buy a ticket or is it pay at the gate?

[geomac]

50 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

You know what gets my OCD hackles up: 5 stars to the left and 9 stars to the right in the thread title.  

 

Yip I'm with you... sadly

[Niemi’s gloves]

55 minutes ago, The Natural Order said:

Might be a stupid question but for the game at Spartans tomorrow do you need to pre buy a ticket or is it pay at the gate?

Both are possible as in this from the Hearts web site

 

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/back-the-b-team-against-spartans-1-2

 

i don’t think there’s any great advantage in buying ahead. Seats aren’t reserved and I think it’s the same turnstile(s) regardless of whether you’ve bought in advance or not. That said, I’ve got my ticket via FanBase

[West Jambo]

I wonder how many ‘first team’ players will be involved tonight. Seems like a good opportunity to get minutes for some of the young lads (Stone, Logan, Neilson, Smith, Pollock, McGill, Henderson). Perhaps even some older players on the fringes to keep them ticking over, depending on rules on over 21s - Sibbick etc.

[Sooks]

On 24/07/2022 at 13:25, Glamorgan Jambo said:

If Smith gets a decent loan offer from a top half Championship team maybe. Otherwise he deserves a crack at the first team. Agreed he’s far too good for the LL.

would love one of our players to be on loan at the second placed championship team next season and to score the winner v Hibs in the relegation play offs

[Sooks]

On 24/07/2022 at 21:17, Locky said:

Absolutely gutted to learn the Spartans game is on Tuesday. Genuinely thought it was Wednesday and wanted to go, but can't make the Tuesday.

 

Off to Berlin for the weekend so missing the first team vs Ross County, but back on Wednesday afternoon so should make it to Rosewell for the Cowdenbeath game.

On the plus though you will be in Berlin 😄 

[Locky]

3 hours ago, Sooks said:

On the plus though you will be in Berlin 😄 

Glad you see it that way because I've been getting it tight off my mates for having the audacity to miss a match vs Ross County.  

[Mikey1874]

Barry Anderson saying Finlay Pollock only missed the Berwick game due to suspension. 

 

Pollock says he expects to be between B team and 1st team involvement. 

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/finlay-pollock-exclusive-choosing-hearts-over-hibs-and-the-eden-hazard-factor-3781220

Edited July 26, 2022 by Mikey1874

[Berra than you]

Barry Anderson also reporting that the SPFL reserve league is back. I'm sure the noises from the club was that this was our preference over the lowland league B teams. Wonder if we just got fed up of the time taken for a decision to be made.

[OTT]

Just now, Berra than you said:

Barry Anderson also reporting that the SPFL reserve league is back. I'm sure the noises from the club was that this was our preference over the lowland league B teams. Wonder if we just got fed up of the time taken for a decision to be made.

Probably didn’t have confidence in the SPFL in actually getting it over the line. 
 

The phrase couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery comes to mind when SPFL committees are mentioned. 

[Berra than you]

Just now, OTT said:

Probably didn’t have confidence in the SPFL in actually getting it over the line. 
 

The phrase couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery comes to mind when SPFL committees are mentioned. 

Probably. I imagine the club might be left a little frustrated by that outcome though.

[jamboinglasgow]

8 minutes ago, Berra than you said:

Barry Anderson also reporting that the SPFL reserve league is back. I'm sure the noises from the club was that this was our preference over the lowland league B teams. Wonder if we just got fed up of the time taken for a decision to be made.

 

Its a league with only 9 games in it.

 

https://spfl.co.uk/news/press-release-260722

[Berra than you]

1 minute ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Its a league with only 9 games in it.

 

https://spfl.co.uk/news/press-release-260722

And that'll be why we didn't commit to that then 😅. A shambles.

[Sooks]

48 minutes ago, Locky said:

Glad you see it that way because I've been getting it tight off my mates for having the audacity to miss a match vs Ross County.  

 

😄 

[TheBigO]

4 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Its a league with only 9 games in it.

 

https://spfl.co.uk/news/press-release-260722

Haha, that's no a league!!!!

 

And was Hibs big plan not to have an all singing all dancing Development Team who played glamour friendlies against Man United's 4th choice under 20s and all that sort of stuff?  Or jetting off across the world like the Harlem Globetrotters taking on the best Rwanda, Peru and St Helena have to offer?  Perhaps they can handle those games plus the gruelling league schedule I suppose.

[jamboinglasgow]

3 minutes ago, Berra than you said:

And that'll be why we didn't commit to that then 😅. A shambles.

 

To be fair there is also a reserve cup (for 12 teams, they have not said the format but it could be they have 4 groups of 3, the winners of each group play in a semi then final, so the team in the final play an extra 4 games.)

[scott herbertson]

Surely it should be called

 

The Wee Wee Teams League?

[tian447]

9 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Haha, that's no a league!!!!

 

And was Hibs big plan not to have an all singing all dancing Development Team who played glamour friendlies against Man United's 4th choice under 20s and all that sort of stuff?  Or jetting off across the world like the Harlem Globetrotters taking on the best Rwanda, Peru and St Helena have to offer?  Perhaps they can handle those games plus the gruelling league schedule I suppose.

 

Freed up some time by getting papped out of the league cup early doors

[TheBigO]

15 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

To be fair there is also a reserve cup (for 12 teams, they have not said the format but it could be they have 4 groups of 3, the winners of each group play in a semi then final, so the team in the final play an extra 4 games.)

Git the open top bus booked!

[Hungry hippo]

35 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Its a league with only 9 games in it.

 

https://spfl.co.uk/news/press-release-260722

 

I suppose it's at least slight progress.

[John Findlay]

53 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Its a league with only 9 games in it.

 

https://spfl.co.uk/news/press-release-260722

Dunfermline and Partick not in the league, but taking part in the cup.

[RobboM]

Purely second guessing here but having the Reserve League as an option will give the Lowland League an even stronger incentive to knock back B teams this time next year when the issue comes up again. The three B teams take the Reserve League up to 12 teams plus likely League Cup groups as suggested above.

[DB-14]

How it can be called a reserve league with just one fixture per month is baffling.

[Prince Buaben]

It's a start having it there and it will be used as a tool when the review takes place at the end of the season but in its current format it wouldn't be a benefit to the players.