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Russia Invades Ukraine


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The West is selling small arms, anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons to Ukraine.

We are also selling them old reserve equipment, but only things that the Ukrainians can use right away.

 

No tip top tanks are going to Ukraine. Nor are any advanced aircraft.

This is just whatever we can spare that they can use without any additional training being needed.

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SwindonJambo
2 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

How many NATO Countries have MIGS sitting in storage? Maybe sending some AA and long range artillery along with more anti tank weapons would help more than planes. Right now it's a defensive war for the Ukraine and offensive weapons are not really useful.

The former Eastern Bloc Countries now in NATO still have a few old MiGs left over from the Commy Era. Including Poland. The Ukrainians could use them to deal with the convoy en route to Kiyiv, although it's been breaking down a lot.

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28 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

I’ve been in one……..the ones with the cup holders come in at the top end……unfortunately the British army decided against this vital piece of equipment.

 

I believe you...As long as the MoD/BA opted for our LD to be fitted, can't say much more "Old Chap" or I'll have to kill you. :biggrin2:

Edited by OBE
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5 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


Where? In Poland? Yes how brave. 

Yip, he's the PM.

He has guys with shooters on them when he goes to Aldi !

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47 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Don't tell 'em Pike !!

 

Putin's budy with a war map of Ukraine ? 

 

Image

 

Moldova?

 

Whats the excuse going to be for Moldova

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Bindy Badgy
43 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

You started that post by saying “we should be”….suggesting present and not past……you then mentioned “should have” which is of course correct……way to late now to supply high end equipment that also requires high end training.

 

Training is a key point. No point supplying a top of the range fighter jet if Ukraine doesn't have any pilots trained to fly it.

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dobmisterdobster
19 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


Where? In Poland? Yes how brave. 

 

He's in Estonia where the UK is based as part of the NATO operation. USA are based in Poland. Canada and Germany are in Latvia and Lithuania respectively.

 

He will not set foot in Ukraine for obvious reasons.

Edited by dobmisterdobster
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highlandjambo3
24 minutes ago, OBE said:

 

I believe you...As long as the MoD/BA opted for our LD to be fitted, can't say much more "Old Chap" or I’ll have to kill you. :biggrin2:

Might have been difficult back in the day but getting on a bit now……………..i recon a well placed wet paper bag in a car park on a windy day would do the trick 😁

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1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Don't tell 'em Pike !!

 

Putin's budy with a war map of Ukraine ? 

 

Image

 

Map of Europe and UK inset...Lukashenko looks transparent...Ah, the old wooden pointy stick, he should buy a laser pen of ebay...oh! wait, he can't, he's barred...:biggrin2:

Edited by OBE
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kingantti1874
2 hours ago, Cruyff said:

The UK and US should be giving the Ukraine F22's, Typhoons, Apaches, Abrams and Challenger tanks. They should have before Putin invaded because if they did, his forces probably wouldn't be near Ukrainian Cities. The Wests response hasn't been good enough imo. We didn't have to go and fight for the Ukrainians, they are clearly more than capable but giving them the best equipment to do so would have turned the tables on Putin.


yeah. The Ukrainians have lots of people sitting around trained how to fly typhoons and apaches..  it’s easy enough to.

 

holy ****

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SwindonJambo
1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:


yeah. The Ukrainians have lots of people sitting around trained how to fly typhoons and apaches..  it’s easy enough to.

 

holy ****

Hence why Poland gave them their old Commy Era Migs.

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We should sell/give Ukraine a couple or more cruise missiles that can be deployed from just inside the border. Aim them at these columns and take out some Russians and make the roads unusable at the same time. 

Edited by Boy Daniel
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kingantti1874
1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Let’s face it, we’re standing back and letting Ukraine take a hammering. No amount of sanctions are going to change what’s happening on the ground. We need to take this ***** on.


****ing stupid.  Putting the lives of all of our families at risk and signing yourself up for the fight

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2 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Yeah, that was me.

Interesting that Putin seems to be following Dugin's thoughts very closely.

And that is scary and a clear indication it will not stop at Ukraine's decruction.

 

2 hours ago, JackLadd said:

We also know the SNP agenda is a part Russian divide and conquer operation. No accident Salmo is on Russia Today. None at all.


Quoting both posts as my answer follows on from one and addresses the second.

Russian propaganda tactics ar to conquer and divide, JackLadd, are what the Kremlin and Putin indulge in. But are you sure you want to open up this particular can of worms? Ok.

1) As above, and I've also discussed this previously on the thread - Aleksandr Dugin's doctrine and playbook is exactly what Putin is following. 
2) Who else follows this facism-101 playbook? Steve Bannon, ex Trump advisor, alt-right Breitbart founder. 
3) Who is mates with Steve Bannon? Boris Johnson.
4) Who helped enconsce the Putin-friendly Viktor Yanukovych's power in Ukraine? Paul Manafort.
5) Who is Paul Manafort? Former Trump chief campaign officer. 
6) Who else has meddled in Ukraine? Hunter Biden, son of current US president. Some theories suggest where Manafort was shoring up Putin interests, Biden was shoring up western influence.

We could cover more ground here if you want, like just how compromised Trump (made obvious by his NATO rants and his general demeanour around Putin) and potentially Johnson, are. Brexit, 2014 Independence referendum, US elections, Covid conspiracies, anti-vaxx messaging - ALL part of the Dugin propaganda playbook because they help Putin realise his aims, or at least they believe isolating the UK, fracturing US politics is in their interests. Anti-EU posturing in countries where the level of desire to leave is low also comes mainly from the Russian server-farms. We don't really need to discuss that London is teeming with Russian oligarch money, as is the tory party.

We really should focus on Ukraine here, which is why what I've posted above is relevant - Ukraine has become another proxy-war between Russia & the US, with the rest of Europe not exactly innocent of using them as a political football/buffer zone. The entire GOP could be compromised due to their slavish devotion to Trump, guaranteed a Russian controlled asset. 

But naw, let's just focus on a Scottish politician, far past his prime/time of influence, for being on RT. That's the big picture here and not that peoples lives are on the line  because the leaders of the big 2 won't adopt a fresh ideology that moves on from the cold war and prefer to do it with other countries civilians as pawns. 

------------------------------------------------
Citations:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news-most-dangerous-man-world-paul-knott-putin-fascist-philosopher-33062/
https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2020/10/rise-traditionalists-how-mystical-doctrine-reshaping-right
3  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/22/video-reveals-steve-bannon-links-to-boris-johnson
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-did-ex-trump-aide-paul-manafort-really-do-ukraine-n775431

Edited by Gizmo
punctuation
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doctor jambo
7 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

 


Quoting both posts as my answer follows on from one and addresses the second.

Russian propaganda tactics, JackLadd, are what the Kremlin and Putin indulge in. But are you sure you want to open up this particular can of worms? Ok.

1) As above, and I've also discussed this previously onn the thread - Aleksandr Dugin's doctrine and playbook is exactly what Putin is following. 
2) Who else follows this facism-101 playbook? Steve Bannon, ex Trump advisor, alt-right Breitbart founder. 
3) Who is mates with Steve Bannon? Boris Johnson.
4) Who helped enconsce the Putin-friendly Viktor Yanukovych's power in Ukraine? Paul Manafort: 
5) Who is Paul Manafort? Former Trump chief campaign officer. 
6) Who else has meddled in Ukraine? Hunter Biden, son of current US president. Some theories suggest where Manafort was shoring up Putin interests, Biden was shoring up western influence.

We could cover more ground here if you want, like just how compromised Trump (made obvious by his NATO rants and his general demeanour around Putin) and potentially Johnson, are. Brexit, 2014 Independence referendum, US elections, Covid conspiracies, anti-vaxx messaging - ALL part of the Dugin propaganda playbook because they help Putin realise his aims, or at least they believe isolating the UK, fracturing US politics is in their interests. Anti-EU posturing in countries where the level of desire to leave is low also comes mainly from the Russian server-farms. We don't really need to discuss that London is teeming with Russian oligarch money, as is the tory party.

We really should focus on Ukraine here, which is why what I've posted above is relevant - Ukraine has become another proxy-war between Russia & the US, with the rest of Europe not exactly innocent of using them as a political football/buffer zone. The entire GOP could be compromised due to their slavish devotion to Trump, guaranteed a Russian controlled asset. 

But naw, let's just focus on a Scottish politician, far past his prime/time of influence, for being on RT. That's the big picture here and not that peoples lives are on the line  because the leaders of the big 2 won't adopt a fresh ideology that moves on from the cold war and prefer to do it with other countries civilians. 

------------------------------------------------
Citations:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news-most-dangerous-man-world-paul-knott-putin-fascist-philosopher-33062/
https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2020/10/rise-traditionalists-how-mystical-doctrine-reshaping-right
3  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/22/video-reveals-steve-bannon-links-to-boris-johnson
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-did-ex-trump-aide-paul-manafort-really-do-ukraine-n775431

Hunter Biden is a drug addled waster of the highest order .

to repaint him as some angelic super spy merely because he is a democrat is risible

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Ukraine and its people are inspirational. They know, the Polish know, the whole of Eastern Europe knows, that now is the time to stop Putin. If not now, when and where?

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1 minute ago, Gizmo said:

 


Quoting both posts as my answer follows on from one and addresses the second.

Russian propaganda tactics, JackLadd, are what the Kremlin and Putin indulge in. But are you sure you want to open up this particular can of worms? Ok.

1) As above, and I've also discussed this previously onn the thread - Aleksandr Dugin's doctrine and playbook is exactly what Putin is following. 
2) Who else follows this facism-101 playbook? Steve Bannon, ex Trump advisor, alt-right Breitbart founder. 
3) Who is mates with Steve Bannon? Boris Johnson.
4) Who helped enconsce the Putin-friendly Viktor Yanukovych's power in Ukraine? Paul Manafort: 
5) Who is Paul Manafort? Former Trump chief campaign officer. 
6) Who else has meddled in Ukraine? Hunter Biden, son of current US president. Some theories suggest where Manafort was shoring up Putin interests, Biden was shoring up western influence.

We could cover more ground here if you want, like just how compromised Trump (made obvious by his NATO rants and his general demeanour around Putin) and potentially Johnson, are. Brexit, 2014 Independence referendum, US elections, Covid conspiracies, anti-vaxx messaging - ALL part of the Dugin propaganda playbook because they help Putin realise his aims, or at least they believe isolating the UK, fracturing US politics is in their interests. Anti-EU posturing in countries where the level of desire to leave is low also comes mainly from the Russian server-farms. We don't really need to discuss that London is teeming with Russian oligarch money, as is the tory party.

We really should focus on Ukraine here, which is why what I've posted above is relevant - Ukraine has become another proxy-war between Russia & the US, with the rest of Europe not exactly innocent of using them as a political football/buffer zone. The entire GOP could be compromised due to their slavish devotion to Trump, guaranteed a Russian controlled asset. 

But naw, let's just focus on a Scottish politician, far past his prime/time of influence, for being on RT. That's the big picture here and not that peoples lives are on the line  because the leaders of the big 2 won't adopt a fresh ideology that moves on from the cold war and prefer to do it with other countries civilians. 

------------------------------------------------
Citations:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news-most-dangerous-man-world-paul-knott-putin-fascist-philosopher-33062/
https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2020/10/rise-traditionalists-how-mystical-doctrine-reshaping-right
3  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/22/video-reveals-steve-bannon-links-to-boris-johnson
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-did-ex-trump-aide-paul-manafort-really-do-ukraine-n775431

Fair play mate, you give him a lot more time than I would.

The problem with the type of post/person you're dealing with here is that it becomes tiresome trying to debunk it (and they're not really intersted in anything you have to say anyway).  Personally, I'll just move on and ignore him. 

I'll finish with this : I find it very odd that posters like him trot out the Putin connection while so many others on here with his sneering attitiude to independence seem unconcerned about what has been happening under their noses in London. 

Anyways, that's enough from me. 

But 

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2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Hunter Biden is a drug addled waster of the highest order .

to repaint him as some angelic super spy merely because he is a democrat is risible

Take your shite onto another thread please.

Thanks.

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2 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Ukraine and its people are inspirational. They know, the Polish know, the whole of Eastern Europe knows, that now is the time to stop Putin. If not now, when and where?


It’s what I’ve been thinking about. No answer as yet.

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36 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:


yeah. The Ukrainians have lots of people sitting around trained how to fly typhoons and apaches..  it’s easy enough to.

 

holy ****

:smile:

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Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

Fair play mate, you give him a lot more time than I would.

The problem with the type of post/person you're dealing with here is that it becomes tiresome trying to debunk it (and they're not really intersted in anything you have to say anyway).  Personally, I'll just move on and ignore him. 

I'll finish with this : I find it very odd that posters like him trot out the Putin connection while so many others on here with his sneering attitiude to independence seem unconcerned about what has been happening under their noses in London. 

Anyways, that's enough from me. 

But 


See the first poster to have a go above rather confirms your point! 

But I felt it was worth widening the scope of your informed commentary as there is so much underpinning this situation - it's not as simple as just "Putin mad/bad". 

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10 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:


It’s what I’ve been thinking about. No answer as yet.


There is no answer.

Why did no-one stop NK before they developed nukes? A Because they were backed by the Chinese.
Why is no-one stopping them now they have c 20 nukes? A Because they might well fling on at South Korea. 

Nukes are horrendous and immoral, but the concept of detenté/MAD has probably prevented WWIII more than the UN has. 

If we get through the other side of this crisis, we have to have new treaties and a moratorium on hypersonic or space-based nuclear weapons before MAD becomes irrelevant and countries believe they could have first-strike capabilities. 

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2 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


See the first poster to have a go above rather confirms your point! 

But I felt it was worth widening the scope of your informed commentary as there is so much underpinning this situation - it's not as simple as just "Putin mad/bad". 

Indeed. He's not mad, he's following an idealogy that he very much believes and it's terrifying.

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JudyJudyJudy

Causing rancour and disagreements between two countries yet again to score political points ? Vile . It’s a UK lead response doll . International affairs aren’t devolved . Thank the lord 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Boab said:

maybe, just maybe, the West don't want to hand over top end fighters with all the classified info therein ?
A F-35 went down recently and there is an almighty scramble going on to retrieve it. For a very good reason.
I think we can dispense with this argument about giving them our best fighters ! It's fantasy stuff.

 

I haven't been following the thread today, but in Poland, Bulgaria and Slovakia's case, they gave the Ukrainians some of their MiGs and SUs. I read somewhere that for at least one of those countries, the donated planes were then replaced by F-xx's from the States. Seems like a logical way of doing things, and I assume this is partially for the reasons you state.

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6 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Causing rancour and disagreements between two countries yet again to score political points ? Vile . It’s a UK lead response doll . International affairs aren’t devolved . Thank the lord 

 

 

 

 

What does she want us to do? Go in all guns blazing 😂

 

We are already providing medical supplies and financial aid 🤦‍♂️

Edited by GBJambo
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4 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


There is no answer.

Why did no-one stop NK before they developed nukes? A Because they were backed by the Chinese.
Why is no-one stopping them now they have c 20 nukes? A Because they might well fling on at South Korea. 

Nukes are horrendous and immoral, but the concept of detenté/MAD has probably prevented WWIII more than the UN has. 

If we get through the other side of this crisis, we have to have new treaties and a moratorium on hypersonic or space-based nuclear weapons before MAD becomes irrelevant and countries believe they could have first-strike capabilities. 

I would hope and pray there will be an answer. Even if it is managing the threat in some way. We need Red lines, Red lines cannot become blurred lines. However Putin needs to know what he is doing will not work and hopefully his plan will fail principally due to the resolve of the Ukrainians and the unwavering support they are getting. 
 

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1 minute ago, Gizmo said:


There is no answer.

Why did no-one stop NK before they developed nukes? A Because they were backed by the Chinese.
Why is no-one stopping them now they have c 20 nukes? A Because they might well fling on at South Korea. 

Nukes are horrendous and immoral, but the concept of detenté/MAD has probably prevented WWIII more than the UN has. 

If we get through the other side of this crisis, we have to have new treaties and a moratorium on hypersonic or space-based nuclear weapons before MAD becomes irrelevant and countries believe they could have first-strike capabilities. 

 

This.  M.A.D. undoubtedly did prevent wars and wars to escalate to nuclear confrontation.  But the world could now be reaping what was sowed many years ago.  Because M.A.D. only works to a purpose in certain circumstances and is no longer the guarantee it was once thought to be.  When M.A.D. ceases to deter dangerous escalation,  the existence of the weapons becomes counter-productive because they prevent the urgent conventional armed intervention that could stop this war.

 

NATO could stop this war and bring about regime change in Russia quite quickly.  But nuclear weapons are preventing it.  

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3 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

No it’s not the right time for any change 

WW2 suggests it me be the best time for change.

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14 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Causing rancour and disagreements between two countries yet again to score political points ? Vile . It’s a UK lead response doll . International affairs aren’t devolved . Thank the lord 

 

 

 

 

 

What rancour and disagreement? Did you post the wrong clip?

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SectionDJambo

Reports of Belarus lining up tanks to go into Ukraine. If true, and they do join in, what happens then? They’ve even less business getting directly involved, although the modern day Benito has allowed the Russians to attack Ukraine from the Belarus/Ukraine border.

This could easily spiral out of control due to Putin being frustrated that this action hasn’t ended up like Crimea or the Nazi annexation of Austria. 
 

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3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

This.  M.A.D. undoubtedly did prevent wars and wars to escalate to nuclear confrontation.  But the world could now be reaping what was sowed many years ago.  Because M.A.D. only works to a purpose in certain circumstances and is no longer the guarantee it was once thought to be.  When M.A.D. ceases to deter dangerous escalation,  the existence of the weapons becomes counter-productive because they prevent the urgent conventional armed intervention that could stop this war.

 

NATO could stop this war and bring about regime change in Russia quite quickly.  But nuclear weapons are preventing it.  


Don't disagree at all.

My biggest future worry is the proliferation of space-based or non-ballistic nukes that are untrackable, provide little warning time and extraordinarily difficult to defend against. I recall the initial "Star Wars" jingosim Reagan indulged in when he upped the ante talking about a shield over all of NATO, was laughed at for being fanciful but the Russians certainly took it seriously which leads us to the development of defence evading weapons which could be used tactically or as first-strikes.

Putin is already sabre-rattling about using tactical nukes or firing off a warning missile. I don't think we've heard this rhetoric before - it's very aggressive. 

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1 minute ago, jonesy said:

I don't think NATO led regime change in Russia, even if it were achievable, would do much other than at least help us forget about Ukraine. It would make Afghanistan 2003-2021 seem like a resounding success.

 

Depends on how much genuine support there is for Putin within the military,  in the Kremlin and elsewhere amongst the rich and powerful.  There's every reason to believe that there are few people who would be genuinely angry at his elimination.  

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16 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Causing rancour and disagreements between two countries yet again to score political points ? Vile . It’s a UK lead response doll . International affairs aren’t devolved . Thank the lord 

 

 

 

 

What's your problem with what she said. Is it causes she's right, again? 

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I’m wondering how onside Putin’s generals are at the moment. And some of the top civilian top echelons are with Putin’s aims. 
Could there be a coup in the coming days as things escalated? More dead Russian soldiers, more dead Ukrainians and the effect of sanctions, would these trigger a revolt in Russia? 

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The Real Maroonblood
1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

What's your problem with what she said. Is it causes she's right, again? 

The poster's a slaver. 

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2 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


Don't disagree at all.

My biggest future worry is the proliferation of space-based or non-ballistic nukes that are untrackable, provide little warning time and extraordinarily difficult to defend against. I recall the initial "Star Wars" jingosim Reagan indulged in when he upped the ante talking about a shield over all of NATO, was laughed at for being fanciful but the Russians certainly took it seriously which leads us to the development of defence evading weapons which could be used tactically or as first-strikes.

Putin is already sabre-rattling about using tactical nukes or firing off a warning missile. I don't think we've heard this rhetoric before - it's very aggressive. 

 

It's certainly interesting.  As you say,  upsetting the equilibrium of M.A.D. with the advantage of first strike superiority seems like a fairly bad idea.  But I think we're currently witnessing the end of the purpose or mutual protection from M.A.D.  Putin has changed the calculus somewhat.

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1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

Exactly. Less warning time, less chance of shooting it down. 

 

 

You know there's Russian ICBMS just coming into service that travel 15000mph that carry multiple warheads. Do you think if its aimed at London it's going to matter if it comes from Kiev or Moscow?

 

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4 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

I’m wondering how onside Putin’s generals are at the moment. And some of the top civilian top echelons are with Putin’s aims. 
Could there be a coup in the coming days as things escalated? More dead Russian soldiers, more dead Ukrainians and the effect of sanctions, would these trigger a revolt in Russia? 

 

I highly doubt that Putin has left much to chance re any threat of a palace coup or military plot.  Everyone will be under high level surveillance and absolutely shitting it to say the wrong thing to the wrong person.  

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Nucky Thompson
22 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Causing rancour and disagreements between two countries yet again to score political points ? Vile . It’s a UK lead response doll . International affairs aren’t devolved . Thank the lord 

 

 

 

 

She needs to get back into her box and stick to her daft wee policies like minimal alcohol pricing 

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1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The poster's a slaver. 

He's being stupid, here. Scotland are allowed to help. And I'm glad she is, on our behalf. If she said nothing, he would call her  out for that. Seems he's a fullblown/ing Boris boy.

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23 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Causing rancour and disagreements between two countries yet again to score political points ? Vile . It’s a UK lead response doll . International affairs aren’t devolved . Thank the lord 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She can **** off. She'll take money from something we need but not touch the money she wastes of free travel for U22s or pleasing the woke vote.

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The Real Maroonblood
Just now, ri Alban said:

He's being stupid, here. Scotland are allowed to help. And I'm glad she is, on our behalf. If she said nothing, he would call her  out for that. Seems he's a fullblown/ing Boris boy.

Exactly. 

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The Real Maroonblood
1 minute ago, Herbert said:

 

 

She can **** off. She'll take money from something we need but not touch the money she wastes of free travel for U22s or pleasing the woke vote.

:rofl:

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Alex Kintner
10 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

What's your problem with what she said. Is it causes she's right, again? 


She lives rent free in his head. 

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