Dominic Cummings

[Governor Tarkin]

So is this poverty carry on all just the Tories fault or what?

 

I was always under the impression that 'poverty' was a relative measure; a function of a constantly evolvling flux of social, economic, geographical, climatic, and cutural variables - across a mutitude of discrete yet interwoven scales. 🤷‍♂️

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

That's just nonsense.

 

https://www.cashfloat.co.uk/blog/money-borrowing/best-welfare-country/

 

Can you explain how an illegal immigrant suddenly qualifies for benefits?   Genuinely interested to know how that works.

Good luck, I've challenged this one before, it just gets ignored.

 

If you're illegal you don't get benefits - surely this is as obvious as it gets.

[Unknown user]

Lecturing the poor on how to spend their money is peak Tory

[Enzo Chiefo]

20 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Lecturing the poor on how to spend their money is peak Tory

So, just to try to straighten out your twisted logic; nobody should "lecture" the poor on how to spend their money but IF they make all the wrong choices eg Deliveroo meals every night, iPhones, booze, fags THEN turn to feeding their own family, it's the fault of the nasty Tooaarries and their cuts.

Is that seriously what you are claiming??

I would suggest that if someone on £25k has to rely on a foodbank then the first thing they need IS someone to teach them how to prioritise and budget. Do you just believe in entitlement without looking at the more important side of the ledger....responsibility?

[Unknown user]

Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

So, just to try to straighten out your twisted logic; nobody should "lecture" the poor on how to spend their money but IF they make all the wrong choices eg Deliveroo meals every night, iPhones, booze, fags THEN turn to feeding their own family, it's the fault of the nasty Tooaarries and their cuts.

Is that seriously what you are claiming??

I would suggest that if someone on £25k has to rely on a foodbank then the first thing they need IS someone to teach them how to prioritise and budget. Do you just believe in entitlement without looking at the more important side of the ledger....responsibility?

 

Lecturing the poor on how to spend their money is peak Tory

[Enzo Chiefo]

31 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

So is this poverty carry on all just the Tories fault or what?

 

I was always under the impression that 'poverty' was a relative measure; a function of a constantly evolvling flux of social, economic, geographical, climatic, and cutural variables - across a mutitude of discrete yet interwoven scales. 🤷‍♂️

Appears so Guv. If only we had a devolved govt and a party that could spend 14 years making things better🙄

[Enzo Chiefo]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Lecturing the poor on how to spend their money is peak Tory

[Unknown user]

Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

 

It's a fact, I wouldn't expect you to like it

[Konrad von Carstein]

How much of the benefits system is devolved to the SG?

 

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, Barack said:

Italics are much more preferable to capital letters.

 

More emphasis, I've always thought.

 

Less *shouty* too.

[Enzo Chiefo]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It's a fact, I wouldn't expect you to like it

We need more lecturing and education around managing money and prioritising spending imo.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

We need more lecturing and education around managing money and prioritising spending imo.

 

See here's the thing.

 

If you're in poverty you can scrimp and stretch and make the wisest decisions under the sun and still have a miserable, unrewarding existence where your self esteem, mental health and ability to make good decisions are being destroyed by growing debt, limited options and having to get free food from a charity.

I can't blame anyone who lives in poverty for trying to bring themselves a little happiness, being wise isn't going to fix things.

 

Maybe I'm so aware of it because since I came back to Scotland 3 years ago I've seen things I never saw in 10 years in Holland - streets upon streets of poverty, sink estates of people abandoned by the government and society. And not just here, I've been down in Salford a couple of times recently, it's tough to see.

 

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world, richer than the Netherlands. It shouldn't be like this.

[Governor Tarkin]

19 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world, richer than the Netherlands. It shouldn't be like this.

 

This.

[Auldbenches]

2 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

So is this poverty carry on all just the Tories fault or what?

 

I was always under the impression that 'poverty' was a relative measure; a function of a constantly evolvling flux of social, economic, geographical, climatic, and cutural variables - across a mutitude of discrete yet interwoven scales. 🤷‍♂️

Not just the fault if the tories but thinks like the amount of homeless and those using food banks does increase when they are in power.  

They've been in power for over a decade and it has gotten a lot worse for those at the bottom.  

The tories say the left want to drag everyone down to the same level and they want to lift everyone up.  How do they do that without sharing their money?  

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

They don't, but can you explain why thousands of illegal immigrants risk everything to get in to the UK?

 

We have to be doing something right over here, or atnleast something less wrong.

They don't. But don't let the right wing media get in the way. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

See here's the thing.

 

If you're in poverty you can scrimp and stretch and make the wisest decisions under the sun and still have a miserable, unrewarding existence where your self esteem, mental health and ability to make good decisions are being destroyed by growing debt, limited options and having to get free food from a charity.

I can't blame anyone who lives in poverty for trying to bring themselves a little happiness, being wise isn't going to fix things.

 

Maybe I'm so aware of it because since I came back to Scotland 3 years ago I've seen things I never saw in 10 years in Holland - streets upon streets of poverty, sink estates of people abandoned by the government and society. And not just here, I've been down in Salford a couple of times recently, it's tough to see.

 

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world, richer than the Netherlands. It shouldn't be like this.

I agree with every word of that and,no, it shouldn't be happening.  My point is that there are many reasons for it, including globalisation & technological innovations. Governments can only do limited amounts though and, last time I visited my brother in Oregon, they had a far more obvious homeless problem than the UK. Visit NYC or any other city in the US and you'll find the same.

 

The SNP have been in power for 14 years and the Tories 11 in the UK so blaming one but not the other isn't credible. Having extra welfare powers will not solve the issue. Tweaks can be made now but it's a sticking plaster on a gaping wound imo. The problem is multi faceted and far more complicated than some, not yourself,  seem to think.

[Governor Tarkin]

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

They don't. But don't let the right wing media get in the way. 

 

What? Illegal immigrants don't try to come to the UK?

 

Righto.

 

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I agree with every word of that and,no, it shouldn't be happening.  My point is that there are many reasons for it, including globalisation & technological innovations. Governments can only do limited amounts though and, last time I visited my brother in Oregon, they had a far more obvious homeless problem than the UK. Visit NYC or any other city in the US and you'll find the same.

 

The SNP have been in power for 14 years and the Tories 11 in the UK so blaming one but not the other isn't credible. Having extra welfare powers will not solve the issue. Tweaks can be made now but it's a sticking plaster on a gaping wound imo. The problem is multi faceted and far more complicated than some, not yourself,  seem to think.

And as I said, lecturing the poor on how to spend their money is peak tory.

[RobboM]

2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

So, just to try to straighten out your twisted logic; nobody should "lecture" the poor on how to spend their money but IF they make all the wrong choices eg Deliveroo meals every night, iPhones, booze, fags THEN turn to feeding their own family, it's the fault of the nasty Tooaarries and their cuts.

Is that seriously what you are claiming??

I would suggest that if someone on £25k has to rely on a foodbank then the first thing they need IS someone to teach them how to prioritise and budget. Do you just believe in entitlement without looking at the more important side of the ledger....responsibility?

Whereas Boris Johnson's can rely on a personal food bank, handouts for accommodation and redecoration and take zero responsibility on an income considerably higher than £25k pa

[Taffin]

2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

So, just to try to straighten out your twisted logic; nobody should "lecture" the poor on how to spend their money but IF they make all the wrong choices eg Deliveroo meals every night, iPhones, booze, fags THEN turn to feeding their own family, it's the fault of the nasty Tooaarries and their cuts.

Is that seriously what you are claiming??

I would suggest that if someone on £25k has to rely on a foodbank then the first thing they need IS someone to teach them how to prioritise and budget. Do you just believe in entitlement without looking at the more important side of the ledger....responsibility?

 

 

Don't agree with most of your politics Enzo but the bit in bold is absolutely spot on.

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

I’m not disagreeing with you or Enzo but £25k is about £1,700 per month after tax. 
 

Mortgage/rent plus gas/electric and council tax would take up maybe £1,100?

 

Doesn’t leave much for essential items such as transport costs, food, kids, phone bill, insurances, clothes etc. 
 

That’s without any luxuries so I could easily see how someone on £25k could on occasion have to use a food bank. 
 

Not looking for an argument but £25k doesn’t go far. 
 

Edit - I know kids aren’t essential but if you have one spending cash on them is!

 

If you're on £25k I wouldn't recommend spending £1100 a month on rent, utilities and council tax...which is sort of Enzo's point. You wouldn't get a mortgage at that repayment level on £25k.

 

I was on £28k when I bought my flat and was paying about £600 to cover the above. Leaving just over £1200 for everything else and I never came close to not managing to save a little each month never mind use a food bank!

 

Yes, people can get themselves into a pickle and there sure be a safety net there but £25k is an ample amount of money to be earning and living a proper decent life if you spend wisely.

 

Those down nearer a minimum wage salary or paid hourly with unreliable hours etc are absolutely where I absolutely can't agree with the approach the Tories take but anyone relying on a food back on £25k needs to sort out their priorities I'm afraid.

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

If you're on £25k I wouldn't recommend spending £1100 a month on rent, utilities and council tax...which is sort of Enzo's point. You wouldn't get a mortgage at that repayment level on £25k.

 

I was on £28k when I bought my flat and was paying about £600 to cover the above. Leaving just over £1200 for everything else and I never came close to not managing to save a little each month never mind use a food bank!

 

Yes, people can get themselves into a pickle and there sure be a safety net there but £25k is an ample amount of money to be earning and living a proper decent life if you spend wisely.

 

Those down nearer a minimum wage salary or paid hourly with unreliable hours etc are absolutely where I absolutely can't agree with the approach the Tories take but anyone relying on a food back on £25k needs to sort out their priorities I'm afraid.

You think £25000 is good money living in London or the South of England.

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

If you're on £25k I wouldn't recommend spending £1100 a month on rent, utilities and council tax...which is sort of Enzo's point. You wouldn't get a mortgage at that repayment level on £25k.

 

I was on £28k when I bought my flat and was paying about £600 to cover the above. Leaving just over £1200 for everything else and I never came close to not managing to save a little each month never mind use a food bank!

 

Yes, people can get themselves into a pickle and there sure be a safety net there but £25k is an ample amount of money to be earning and living a proper decent life if you spend wisely.

 

Those down nearer a minimum wage salary or paid hourly with unreliable hours etc are absolutely where I absolutely can't agree with the approach the Tories take but anyone relying on a food back on £25k needs to sort out their priorities I'm afraid.

 

Enzo brought up 25k but it's a bit of a distraction from the point about lecturing the poor TBH

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

You think £25000 is good money living in London or the South of England.

 

No, I don't. But it's enough not to need to rely on a food bank. 

 

Good money living in London would be £70k+ imo. Not everywhere in the South of England though is affluent so you'll need to be a bit more specific if you'd like me to place a figure on what I'd consider good money there.

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Enzo brought up 25k but it's a bit of a distraction from the point about lecturing the poor TBH

 

It is a distraction, I agree, mainly because I certainly don't class someone on that kind of salary as poor. 

 

Blaming poor people for buying things to make their life more tolerable is snide in the extreme.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Taffin

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It is a distraction, I agree, mainly because I certainly don't class someone on that kind of salary as poor. 

 

Blaming poor people for buying things to make their life more tolerable is snide in the extreme.

 

Me neither, and I agree, you'd need to ask him why he thought it was appropriate to attack my "twisted logic" or bring people on 25k salaries into it.

 

TBF going back further I see where it's come from. To clarify I don't mean to talk about those people specifically but the attitude in general, although to be fair there are still reasons why someone on that kind of money might still need help

Edited May 31, 2021 by Smithee

[Gizmo]

3 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

So is this poverty carry on all just the Tories fault or what?

 

I was always under the impression that 'poverty' was a relative measure; a function of a constantly evolvling flux of social, economic, geographical, climatic, and cutural variables - across a mutitude of discrete yet interwoven scales. 🤷‍♂️

It is, and Labour cannot just walk away free of blame.

But, and I illustrated my previous post with just 4 examples from an absolute smorgasboard of evidence, with the Tories it's 100% ideological and deliberate. 

It always has been. 


 

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

See here's the thing.

 

If you're in poverty you can scrimp and stretch and make the wisest decisions under the sun and still have a miserable, unrewarding existence where your self esteem, mental health and ability to make good decisions are being destroyed by growing debt, limited options and having to get free food from a charity.

I can't blame anyone who lives in poverty for trying to bring themselves a little happiness, being wise isn't going to fix things.

 

Maybe I'm so aware of it because since I came back to Scotland 3 years ago I've seen things I never saw in 10 years in Holland - streets upon streets of poverty, sink estates of people abandoned by the government and society. And not just here, I've been down in Salford a couple of times recently, it's tough to see.

 

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world, richer than the Netherlands. It shouldn't be like this.

I ask this often and there's never an answer to why there's such a raw deal in so many areas in a supposedly rich country - shit housing schemes with appalling housing, worst pensions in Europe, proliferation of foodbanks etc etc. The money must be going somewhere? 

Unfortunately, the individualistic "I'm alright Jack because..." mentality means not enough people give a damn about those who can't even climb onto the first rung of the capitalist ladder in the same way they don't give a flying **** about the £39 BILLION wasted on a Dido Harding excel spreadsheet or bungs to Matt Handcock's friend's ficticious PPE factory. 



 

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

If you can’t get a mortgage, renting that £600 house becomes £800 which was more in keeping with my point but as Smithee has pointed out £25k isn’t that relevant to the conversation so I’ll bow out now and enjoy the sun 👍

 

The difficulty in getting a mortgage and the high cost of renting comparative to a mortgage is absolutely an issue. No arguments from me on that.

 

That £800 though is still £300 less than the £1100 you suggested. £300 is a lot of food. You're right though, in that yourself, smithee and I are probably all on the same page here and the £25k is a red herring. 

 

Enjoy your evening too 👍

[Ray Gin]

 

[SwindonJambo]

7 hours ago, Smithee said:

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world, richer than the Netherlands. It shouldn't be like this.

 

Incorrect. The UK has a much larger economy, but only by dint of having 4 times the Dutch population. GDP per Capita, a much better measure puts the Dutch quite a long way ahead. at around $58k per capita against our $41-42k, as estimated for 2021.

 

There are actually several small countries all around Europe that beat us by this measure. 

 

Full details herehttps://www.statista.com/topics/755/uk/

 

Still doesn't excuse some of the shit way things are done here though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

Incorrect. The UK has a much larger economy, but only by dint of having 4 times the Dutch population. GDP per Capita, a much better measure puts the Dutch quite a long way ahead. at around $58k per capita against our $41-42k, as estimated for 2021.

 

There are actually several small countries all around Europe that beat us by this measure. 

 

Full details herehttps://www.statista.com/topics/755/uk/

 

Still doesn't excuse some of the shit way things are done here though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's fair comment, I was going by GDP where we're top 5 or maybe 6 now IIRC, I should have said that

 

[SwindonJambo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

That's fair comment, I was going by GDP where we're top 5 or maybe 6 now IIRC, I should have said that

 

I think we might be bumped down to 6th by the weaker pound.

 

From memory all of Scandinavia, the Benelux countries, Ireland, France, Germany and Switzerland beat us on GDP per Capita. 

 

That said, things should be a helluva lot better than they are here. Some of our infrastructure leaves a lot to be desired.

[redjambo]

19 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

I think we might be bumped down to 6th by the weaker pound.

 

From memory all of Scandinavia, the Benelux countries, Ireland, France, Germany and Switzerland beat us on GDP per Capita. 

 

That said, things should be a helluva lot better than they are here. Some of our infrastructure leaves a lot to be desired.

 

Add Austria to the list (but take France out if it, figures only estimates): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

[SwindonJambo]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Add Austria to the list (but take France out if it, figures only estimates): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Ha - forgot about them. I went there once too for a Scotland game. From memory it's ahead of Germany.

 

Most commentators expect France to slip down the pecking order in years to come - it's very heavily regulated,  with an early state pension age. Not that these are bad things but they're expensive. Maybe they're behind us already?

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Me neither, and I agree, you'd need to ask him why he thought it was appropriate to attack my "twisted logic" or bring people on 25k salaries into it.

 

TBF going back further I see where it's come from. To clarify I don't mean to talk about those people specifically but the attitude in general, although to be fair there are still reasons why someone on that kind of money might still need help

£25k was mentioned as it was previously quoted as being the average nurse's salary.  The debate was about nurses using foodbanks. 

 

Still don't get your problem with "poor" people being "lectured to". Previous generations,  post-war for example, were far poorer than anyone is nowadays.  Rationing was still in force until the early 1950s. They knew instinctively how to manage their finances and prioritise their spending, in order to feed their families.

 

The big change nowadays is the "must have now" culture, backed up by easy credit, contactless payments etc. Previously,  even including my own generation, you saved for something and then you bought it.  The default now is buy immediately and worry about paying for it later. 

As I said earlier, there are many, many reasons for why and how people end up in relative poverty. 

[graygo]

20 hours ago, Smithee said:

Good luck, I've challenged this one before, it just gets ignored.

 

If you're illegal you don't get benefits - surely this is as obvious as it gets.

 

People maybe thinking about asylum seekers who are entitled to certain payments and benefits?

 

https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Matt Hancock on BBC News giving evidence on Covid to Parliament Comittees.

 

Cummings hasn't provided any evidence for his claims. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

17 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Matt Hancock on BBC News giving evidence on Covid to Parliament Comittees.

 

Cummings hasn't provided any evidence for his claims. 

 

Cummings was asked and agreed to provide written evidence to the committee by the 4 June, as of todays date 10 June he has failed to provide any evidence to the committee, furthermore the committee chair said that he'd also failed to provide any explanation of why he'd failed to provide the committee with evidence.

 

I think we can draw our own conclusions as to why Cummings has provided no evidence to back up his claims.

 

[I P Knightley]

29 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Cummings was asked and agreed to provide written evidence to the committee by the 4 June, as of todays date 10 June he has failed to provide any evidence to the committee, furthermore the committee chair said that he'd also failed to provide any explanation of why he'd failed to provide the committee with evidence.

 

I think we can draw our own conclusions as to why Cummings has provided no evidence to back up his claims.

 

Such a shame that it's letting that utter arse Handcock wriggle off the hook.

[Don Dan]

Cummings missing in action. 

[Boab]

He’s a devious wee toad.

Come out with allegations and then have nothing to back it up.

Surely I’m not the only one who can see what’s going on here. 
It let’s Hancock and others off the hook, which is exactly why he done it in the first place. To exonerate them. 
Very clever and no surprise really.

Job done, agent Cummings !

[Jambo-Jimbo]

30 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

Such a shame that it's letting that utter arse Handcock wriggle off the hook.

 

I'm sure there is enough skeletons in Hancock's cupboard, that one day he won't be able to wriggle off it, patience.

 

[Don Dan]

Handcock using the I can’t remember line!! 
 

Where have I heard that before🤔🤥

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

19 minutes ago, Boab said:

He’s a devious wee toad.

Come out with allegations and then have nothing to back it up.

Surely I’m not the only one who can see what’s going on here. 
It let’s Hancock and others off the hook, which is exactly why he done it in the first place. To exonerate them. 
Very clever and no surprise really.

Job done, agent Cummings !

 

Could very well be, I wouldn't put it past them to be so devious, then again it's politicians we are talking about, so nothing should really surprise us.

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Cummings was asked and agreed to provide written evidence to the committee by the 4 June, as of todays date 10 June he has failed to provide any evidence to the committee, furthermore the committee chair said that he'd also failed to provide any explanation of why he'd failed to provide the committee with evidence.

 

I think we can draw our own conclusions as to why Cummings has provided no evidence to back up his claims.

 

I will conclude that Cummings is going to let Hancock hang himself. He'll provide the evidence as soon he's lied enough. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

22 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I will conclude that Cummings is going to let Hancock hang himself. He'll provide the evidence as soon he's lied enough. 

 

All of that could have been achieved today, as the whole questioning of Hancock by the committee would have been much different, if Cummings had provided proof of wrongdoing by Hancock et al.

[Boof]

2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

I think we can draw our own conclusions as to why Cummings has provided no evidence to back up his claims.

 

Arise, Sir Dominic?

[ri Alban]

Why give Hancock and Boris the heads up. Wait til they are on record, under oath, then you expose them. Off to Prison. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Why give Hancock and Boris the heads up. Wait til they are on record, under oath, then you expose them. Off to Prison. 

 

People like Hancock & Bojo don't go to jail, they always have a get out of jail free card.

[Savage Vince]

10 hours ago, Boab said:

He’s a devious wee toad.

Come out with allegations and then have nothing to back it up.

Surely I’m not the only one who can see what’s going on here. 
It let’s Hancock and others off the hook, which is exactly why he done it in the first place. To exonerate them. 
Very clever and no surprise really.

Job done, agent Cummings !

 

Yup. They're running rings around the country and making an absolute fortune at the same time, leaving carnage in their trail with no comeback at all.