Trans athletes

[graygo]

3 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes he was. A respected gay activist who is now down the rabbit hole of trans rights . I just struggle to get my head around why LGB have become involved in this issue . I can only surmise is to feel relevant as you say about Tatchell . Why not attach to black rights ? Disabled rights ? I

 

Maybe Peter Tatchell thinks that their rights are real and worth fighting for.

[AlimOzturk]

 

15 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Because there's not enough of them, if there was they could have their own sports category, changing rooms, toilets, prisons, refuge homes etc.  

 

How about they get to compete but their results don't count, a bit like an amateur at the Masters 

The problem is there are only a limited amount of spaces available for women to compete in. So the trans athlete will be denying another women the chance to compete. 
 

The whole system could easily be manipulated by men who aren’t good enough to compete on the male circuit but good enough to win woman’s tournaments. All they have to is take the required medication to reduce their testosterone to the bare minimum levels required for their sport. They don’t have to prove that they are living as women or even resemble what a women looks like. It is completely ****ed up. 
 

Imagine a male tennis player in the top 100 decided to do this. They could easily dominate the womens game, win far more prize money than they could ever do on the male circuit. 

[AlimOzturk]

9 minutes ago, graygo said:

The problem is there is no debate with the militant anti-trans lobby. Trans women are men. It's their mantra. Therefore no discussion is allowed. 

 

Stonewall would be better closing down now that the gays and lesbians have everything they want, other minority groups can gtf.

Am not anti trans mate. There are things I don’t understand I fully admit but I am mostly let and let live. If people want to think and act like a different gender than they are then by all means do so. I couldn’t care less 
 

However basic facts, biology and peoples feelings and the truth should never be pushed to a side for the sake one minority group. 

[Ribble]

7 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

The problem is there are only a limited amount of spaces available for women to compete in. So the trans athlete will be denying another women the chance to compete. 
 

The whole system could easily be manipulated by men who aren’t good enough to compete on the male circuit but good enough to win woman’s tournaments. All they have to is take the required medication to reduce their testosterone to the bare minimum levels required for their sport. They don’t have to prove that they are living as women or even resemble what a women looks like. It is completely ****ed up. 
 

Imagine a male tennis player in the top 100 decided to do this. They could easily dominate the womens game, win far more prize money than they could ever do on the male circuit. 

 

Yep, is it really that far in the future when a male competitor decides that making the heats of the 100m isn't enough so they transition and 4 years later they're lifting the Olympic gold with a world record on top (quick check on wiki and it appeared that from the heats of the 100m onwards about 95% of the competitors were quicker than the current womens world record)

[jack D and coke]

2 hours ago, Cruyff said:

Yup, he's spot on. A broken clock is right twice a day mind.

I agree with Johnson here and anyone who has his view tbh but it’s like all his opinions.
If you don’t like that one he’s got many more once he’s worked out what way the wind is blowing. 

[ri Alban]

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

 

😂😂😂

[SectionDJambo]

I find myself agreeing with Johnson on this. Just as when I agree with his Hibby parliamentary adversary, I needed to clear my head a bit afterwards.

Allowing trans women to compete against women would be like turning the clock back to the 70s when some women from the Eastern Block, were taking drugs to turn them into men with vaginas. 

It's a tricky situation to debate and probably one that will always cause controversy.

[graygo]

25 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

The problem is there are only a limited amount of spaces available for women to compete in. So the trans athlete will be denying another women the chance to compete. 
 

The whole system could easily be manipulated by men who aren’t good enough to compete on the male circuit but good enough to win woman’s tournaments. All they have to is take the required medication to reduce their testosterone to the bare minimum levels required for their sport. They don’t have to prove that they are living as women or even resemble what a women looks like. It is completely ****ed up. 
 

Imagine a male tennis player in the top 100 decided to do this. They could easily dominate the womens game, win far more prize money than they could ever do on the male circuit. 

 

I keep repeating myself but there would be no prize money for them in my world.

[Cruyff]

15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I agree with Johnson here and anyone who has his view tbh but it’s like all his opinions.
If you don’t like that one he’s got many more once he’s worked out what way the wind is blowing. 

Indeed mate.

[Cruyff]

We're just going to have mens, women's, trans men, trans women's heats at olympics etc... it's the only way.

[graygo]

18 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Am not anti trans mate. There are things I don’t understand I fully admit but I am mostly let and let live. If people want to think and act like a different gender than they are then by all means do so. I couldn’t care less 
 

However basic facts, biology and peoples feelings and the truth should never be pushed to a side for the sake one minority group. 

 

I don't pretend to understand it either, I just can't help feeling that their situation is similar to that of homosexual people. They are being treated similar to how the gay community was a few years ago, it's actually shameful that "some" of the LGB community are trying to sink them, even denying that it a real thing. They do that by using extreme examples, the vast majority of trans women are not big hairy blokes who parade naked in front of young girls trying to intimidate them, just like not all gay men try to sneak a look at your dick in the toilets.

[graygo]

25 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

Yep, is it really that far in the future when a male competitor decides that making the heats of the 100m isn't enough so they transition and 4 years later they're lifting the Olympic gold with a world record on top (quick check on wiki and it appeared that from the heats of the 100m onwards about 95% of the competitors were quicker than the current womens world record)

 

They could compete but no medals, no records, no prize money.

 

One other thing, it's a tiny minority. 95% of the male competitors are not going to become trans to compete as a woman. If they did then the person who finished 20th as a man would still finish 20th as a woman.

Edited April 6, 2022 by graygo

[John Findlay]

23 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I agree with Johnson here and anyone who has his view tbh but it’s like all his opinions.
If you don’t like that one he’s got many more once he’s worked out what way the wind is blowing. 

No different to any other politician then.

[graygo]

7 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

We're just going to have mens, women's, trans men, trans women's heats at olympics etc... it's the only way.

 

I know you're joking but that would definitely be the answer if we had an equal 25% split between the population. Maybe we should encourage more to transgender. 😄

[CF11JamTart]

1 hour ago, Ribble said:

 

Yep, is it really that far in the future when a male competitor decides that making the heats of the 100m isn't enough so they transition and 4 years later they're lifting the Olympic gold with a world record on top (quick check on wiki and it appeared that from the heats of the 100m onwards about 95% of the competitors were quicker than the current womens world record)

The English U15 boys 100m record  is only just outside the women's 100m medal positions at the last Olympics.

 

Male puberty blah blah blah. 

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Ribble said:

 

Yep, is it really that far in the future when a male competitor decides that making the heats of the 100m isn't enough so they transition and 4 years later they're lifting the Olympic gold with a world record on top (quick check on wiki and it appeared that from the heats of the 100m onwards about 95% of the competitors were quicker than the current womens world record)

I reckon it’s more likely that a guy will see the financial benefit of transitioning to become a ladies goalkeeper. 
 

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, CF11JamTart said:

And Stonewall have to justify their existence. 

And presumably their staff have bills to pay. 

 

Follow the money. Stonewall make a lot of money through donations and after succeeding in their primary aim in 2015 they needed "causes" to continue the money raising. 

[Captain Slog]

1 hour ago, graygo said:

 

I don't pretend to understand it either, I just can't help feeling that their situation is similar to that of homosexual people. They are being treated similar to how the gay community was a few years ago, it's actually shameful that "some" of the LGB community are trying to sink them, even denying that it a real thing. They do that by using extreme examples, the vast majority of trans women are not big hairy blokes who parade naked in front of young girls trying to intimidate them, just like not all gay men try to sneak a look at your dick in the toilets.

I used to feel like this many years ago Greygo and that any minority deserved acceptance, inclusion, safety and fairness.  I still do.  However my opinions back then, as you yourself pointed out, were based on feelings, not facts.  And I'm afraid its a fact that if the trans lobby achieve their aims, many much bigger sections of society are deprived of that inclusion,, safety and fairness.  That's the big difference and i think why there is such a big issue, when LGB people fought for all that, they never deprived anyone else..  If I may give some examples.

 

Safety,  Biological women deserve changing rooms where they can feel secure.  You stated the vast majority of trans woman are not big hairy blokes who parade in front of young girls trying to intimidate them, but in reality, many women will feel insecure, even frightened if a trans woman enters their safe space.  The swimmer parading naked in competition changing rooms .is a case in point, but imagine how more intense the anxiety if a trans woman is allowed into an abused womens' refuge for example. Or if  convicted sex offender is sent to a womens prison?

 

Fairness.  Athletes who have undergone male puberty is well documented here.   But it extends further.  Most workplaces now try to offer equality in promotion and ratios in the workplace/  Trans women will now be able to utilise the positive discrimination used to achieve this, and deprive biological women of possible advancement.

 

Inclusion.  Young people are now facing all sorts of pressure, not to explore their sexuality, but to identify as trans.  LGB fought for many years to allow people to explore their sexua;lity, yet the trans community are dominating social media, enclosed echo chamber as it is, to encourage such youngsters to become trans - and - this is very important, denouncing any LGB who offer advice or support with such vitriol they are ostracized, and by and large they appear to be leaving such communities in droves, offering the confused kids no alternative support.  Go look, if an LGB person opens their mouth, they  are immediately called transphobic or even gammon.

 

I don't pretend to have answers Greygo, i really don't, i really want everyone to be comfortable.  My big problem is that Stonewall for instance are NOT prepared to engage and debate and find a workable solution, they engage the With out knowledge or Education mob in a way Goebbels would be proud of, i really wish they'd accept there are other viewpoint, and other people affected by this, and enter discourse to find a way which encompasses everyone to live happy.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Captain Slog

[CF11JamTart]

4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Follow the money. Stonewall make a lot of money through donations and after succeeding in their primary aim in 2015 they needed "causes" to continue the money raising. 

Follow the money indeed....

 

They also make a lot of money from advising large blue chip companies and public sector organisations on policy development and implementation around LGBTQ+ issues. For example, rolling out the LGBTQ+ Allies scheme. (Ever wondered what all the rainbow lanyards were about?) 

 

The Stonewall Top 100 is a list that a lot of organisations want to be on. And obviously, Stonewall are very happy to sell consultancy for how organisations can get improve their position on the Top 100.

 

So... Regarding the public section and government, you've effectively got a lobby group being paid to lobby. 

 

Follow the money, as you say. 

[CF11JamTart]

4 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

LGB fought for many years to allow people to explore this, yet the trans community are dominating social media, enclosed echo chamber as it is, to encourage such youngsters to become trans - and - this is very important, denouncing any LGB who offer advice or support with such vitriol they are ostracized, and by and large they appear to be leaving such communities in droves, offering the confused kids no alternative support.  Go look, if an LGB person opens their mouth, they  are immediately called transphobic or even gammon.

 

 

 And often as not, it's middle-aged lesbians who are getting shot down in flames for their apparent TERF tendencies. 

[Captain Slog]

1 hour ago, graygo said:

 

I don't pretend to understand it either, I just can't help feeling that their situation is similar to that of homosexual people. They are being treated similar to how the gay community was a few years ago, it's actually shameful that "some" of the LGB community are trying to sink them, even denying that it a real thing. They do that by using extreme examples, the vast majority of trans women are not big hairy blokes who parade naked in front of young girls trying to intimidate them, just like not all gay men try to sneak a look at your dick in the toilets.

And finally, and i realise this may be contentious.  Womens rights are being eroded, so are LGB.  I don't think its shameful the LGB are trying to preserved hard won rights and acceptance for both groups.  I don't think any one is trying to 'sink' and individual transexual, just the militant groups who will not discuss.

[Captain Slog]

Just now, Captain Slog said:

And finally, and i realise this may be contentious.  Womens rights are being eroded, so are LGB.  I don't think its shameful the LGB are trying to preserved hard won rights and acceptance for both groups.  I don't think any one is trying to 'sink' any individual transexual, just the militant groups who will not discuss.

 

[Captain Slog]

4 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said:

 And often as not, it's middle-aged lesbians who are getting shot down in flames for their apparent TERF tendencies. 

Agreed, gay community are getting it in the neck, but they arent driving that, its a hammer blow to their acceptance - not trans people, the tactics of the like of stonewall

[graygo]

19 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

I used to feel like this many years ago Greygo and that any minority deserved acceptance, inclusion, safety and fairness.  I still do.  However my opinions back then, as you yourself pointed out, were based on feelings, not facts.  And I'm afraid its a fact that if the trans lobby achieve their aims, many much bigger sections of society are deprived of that inclusion,, safety and fairness.  That's the big difference and i think why there is such a big issue, when LGB people fought for all that, they never deprived anyone else..  If I may give some examples.

 

Safety,  Biological women deserve changing rooms where they can feel secure.  You stated the vast majority of trans woman are not big hairy blokes who parade in front of young girls trying to intimidate them, but in reality, many women will feel insecure, even frightened if a trans woman enters their safe space.  The swimmer parading naked in competition changing rooms .is a case in point, but imagine how more intense the anxiety if a trans woman is allowed into an abused womens' refuge for example. Or if  convicted sex offender is sent to a womens prison?

 

That's why schools are introducing unisex toilets alongside the traditional male and female. Maybe an effort has to be made to provide similar in prisons etc, the numbers are not huge.

 

19 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

 

Fairness.  Athletes who have undergone male puberty is well documented here.   But it extends further.  Most workplaces now try to offer equality in promotion and ratios in the workplace/  Trans women will now be able to utilise the positive discrimination used to achieve this, and deprive biological women of possible advancement.

 

Not sure I get what you're saying, that women enjoy positive discrimination in the workplace? Maybe we need to promote on ability instead of gender.

 

19 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

 

Inclusion.  Young people are now facing all sorts of pressure, not to explore their sexuality, but to identify as trans.  LGB fought for many years to allow people to explore their sexua;lity, yet the trans community are dominating social media, enclosed echo chamber as it is, to encourage such youngsters to become trans - and - this is very important, denouncing any LGB who offer advice or support with such vitriol they are ostracized, and by and large they appear to be leaving such communities in droves, offering the confused kids no alternative support.  Go look, if an LGB person opens their mouth, they  are immediately called transphobic or even gammon.

 

How come all these social media sites don't remotely mirror the thoughts on this forum? All the shouting on here is that there is no place for transgendered. Why is it ok to explore your sexuality but not your gender?

 

19 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

 

I don't pretend to have answers Greygo, i really don't, i really want everyone to be comfortable.  My big problem is that Stonewall for instance are NOT prepared to engage and debate and find a workable solution, they engage the With out knowledge or Education mob in a way Goebbels would be proud of, i really wish they'd accept there are other viewpoint, and other people affected by this, and enter discourse to find a way which encompasses everyone to live happy.

 

I appreciate your measured response so thanks for that. I guess I just don't see how the rights of a gay or lesbian person are more important than a transgender's rights and I have heard the arguments.

[graygo]

22 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

And finally, and i realise this may be contentious.  Womens rights are being eroded, so are LGB.  I don't think its shameful the LGB are trying to preserved hard won rights and acceptance for both groups.  I don't think any one is trying to 'sink' and individual transexual, just the militant groups who will not discuss.

 

As I said I can't place the LGB rights any higher than trans rights in my head. What rights are being eroded?

Edited April 6, 2022 by graygo

[doctor jambo]

6 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

As I said I can't place the LGB rights any higher than trans rights in my head. What rights are being eroded?

Some lesbians are being accused of transphobia and are being pressure into dating trans male- female even if they have a penis. BBC had a bit on it.

[graygo]

2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Some lesbians are being accused of transphobia and are being pressure into dating trans male- female even if they have a penis. BBC had a bit on it.

 

Pressured into it?  That's mental, they are allowed to say no I take it?

[doctor jambo]

Just now, graygo said:

 

Pressured into it?  That's mental, they are allowed to say no I take it?

Peer pressure and fear of the accusation.you couldn’t even say “not my type”

as that would go downhill rapidly.

the pressure was always there before , but it’s crazy bad now.

 

[graygo]

Just now, doctor jambo said:

Peer pressure and fear of the accusation.you couldn’t even say “not my type”

as that would go downhill rapidly.

the pressure was always there before , but it’s crazy bad now.

 

 

That's seriously fecked up, not a reason to deny transgender's their rights though. Unless they're all doing it then stuff them. 😄

[Captain Slog]

15 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

That's why schools are introducing unisex toilets alongside the traditional male and female. Maybe an effort has to be made to provide similar in prisons etc, the numbers are not huge.

 

 

Not sure I get what you're saying, that women enjoy positive discrimination in the workplace? Maybe we need to promote on ability instead of gender.

 

 

How come all these social media sites don't remotely mirror the thoughts on this forum? All the shouting on here is that there is no place for transgendered. Why is it ok to explore your sexuality but not your gender?

 

 

I appreciate your measured response so thanks for that. I guess I just don't see how the rights of a gay or lesbian person are more important than a transgender's rights and I have heard the arguments.

Thank you Greygo, is refreshing to have someone prepared to debate and maybe change my views.

 

I completely agree a third unisex toilets  is appropriate but wow - remember the furore when businesses just had to provide a wheelchair ramp.  May not be practibable because of the cost.  And i agree ability not gender, but unless you give a kid two orange boxes to watch a game, how do you get minorities to the proportion of the workplace they should be in,  And what of the kids that are minorities themselves with only one orange box?

 

Kickback is what it is.  Very different demographic from others, be they previous lgb, or wok, or even republican or democrat.  My whole point is that the sites kids turn to to explore their sex and gender, have been by all accounts completely taken over by the trans lobby, and very large sections of echo chamber communities, so lgb are disenfranchised and leave as they are shot down for attempting to give their views and support.

 

And its possibly our perspective - im older maybe, i remember my family fought for womens rights, my friends fought for their lgb rights, i just perceive they are being eroded - biological men who identify as women are reclaiming them, i feel especially strongly in the safe spaces bit and the sports

 

 

 

 

[doctor jambo]

1 minute ago, graygo said:

 

That's seriously fecked up, not a reason to deny transgender's their rights though. Unless they're all doing it then stuff them. 😄

What are “their rights” exactly?

what are they being denied?

I accept that I am denied access to female changing rooms etc because I have a cock.

that’s the simple breakdown .

women feel uncomfortable getting changed with the presence of someone with a cock. 
This has nothing to do with sexual attraction , otherwise gay men would be allowed in those spaces, but they are not.

Some women equate cock with threat and trauma ,

so don’t want them waggling around when they feel vulnerable.

 

[graygo]

12 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

Thank you Greygo, is refreshing to have someone prepared to debate and maybe change my views.

 

I completely agree a third unisex toilets  is appropriate but wow - remember the furore when businesses just had to provide a wheelchair ramp.  May not be practibable because of the cost.  And i agree ability not gender, but unless you give a kid two orange boxes to watch a game, how do you get minorities to the proportion of the workplace they should be in,  And what of the kids that are minorities themselves with only one orange box?

 

Kickback is what it is.  Very different demographic from others, be they previous lgb, or wok, or even republican or democrat.  My whole point is that the sites kids turn to to explore their sex and gender, have been by all accounts completely taken over by the trans lobby, and very large sections of echo chamber communities, so lgb are disenfranchised and leave as they are shot down for attempting to give their views and support.

 

And its possibly our perspective - im older maybe, i remember my family fought for womens rights, my friends fought for their lgb rights, i just perceive they are being eroded - biological men who identify as women are reclaiming them, i feel especially strongly in the safe spaces bit and the sports

 

 

Thanks again for the reply.

 

 

 

I didn't have strong feelings one way or another on this subject till recently when we welcomed a teenager into our family (we're foster carers) who is one of these youngsters exploring their gender. They've been everything from straight to gay to bisexual to pansexual to non binary and everything in between. I've been through the pronouns conversations with them and I'll support their right to be who they want to be. I mentioned their plight on here before and got riled by our resident expert on all things gay reply of "bully for her" so I've gone from playing Devil's advocate to pro trans rights to spite him. 😄

[Captain Slog]

7 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

What are “their rights” exactly?

what are they being denied?

I accept that I am denied access to female changing rooms etc because I have a cock.

that’s the simple breakdown .

women feel uncomfortable getting changed with the presence of someone with a cock. 
This has nothing to do with sexual attraction , otherwise gay men would be allowed in those spaces, but they are not.

Some women equate cock with threat and trauma ,

so don’t want them waggling around when they feel vulnerable.

 

May i devils advocate here, although i've published my views.  Natural women have a right to security in safe spaces.  I think trans women have the right to inclusion though, and this will involve them wishing to use womens safe spaces.  I cant see a solution except a third safe space, but its probably financially improbable, so there has to be discourse, and that trans are accepted and included, but there are some areas of life they have to accept there must be compromise. 

Personally if a man waggled about in front of my partner, i may not hit him, but id seek permission to enter the safe space and remove him/her, its so emotive. (Knowing my temper he/she is in the ERI)

 

 

[graygo]

11 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

What are “their rights” exactly?

what are they being denied?

I accept that I am denied access to female changing rooms etc because I have a cock.

that’s the simple breakdown .

women feel uncomfortable getting changed with the presence of someone with a cock. 
This has nothing to do with sexual attraction , otherwise gay men would be allowed in those spaces, but they are not.

Some women equate cock with threat and trauma ,

so don’t want them waggling around when they feel vulnerable.

 

 

I've never advocated transgenders using women's changing rooms or toilets.

[Captain Slog]

That must be so rewarding, yet challenging, all at once. I salute you. Well done.  Maybe Im a dinosaur, a colleague has a new 15 year old child with similar issues brought along with his partner, and very similar outlook to you.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Captain Slog

[doctor jambo]

4 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

That must be so rewarding, yet challenging, all at once. I salute you. Well done.  Maybe Im a dinosaur, a colleague has a new 15 year old child with similar issues brought along with his partner, and very similar outlook to you.

Teenagers are nuts .

They are confused and vulnerable and easy to manipulate - that’s why you are not allowed to sleep with them, they cannot vote and it should be why you don’t allow them to chop off their genitalia .

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Captain Slog said:

I used to feel like this many years ago Greygo and that any minority deserved acceptance, inclusion, safety and fairness.  I still do.  However my opinions back then, as you yourself pointed out, were based on feelings, not facts.  And I'm afraid its a fact that if the trans lobby achieve their aims, many much bigger sections of society are deprived of that inclusion,, safety and fairness.  That's the big difference and i think why there is such a big issue, when LGB people fought for all that, they never deprived anyone else..  If I may give some examples.

 

Safety,  Biological women deserve changing rooms where they can feel secure.  You stated the vast majority of trans woman are not big hairy blokes who parade in front of young girls trying to intimidate them, but in reality, many women will feel insecure, even frightened if a trans woman enters their safe space.  The swimmer parading naked in competition changing rooms .is a case in point, but imagine how more intense the anxiety if a trans woman is allowed into an abused womens' refuge for example. Or if  convicted sex offender is sent to a womens prison?

 

Fairness.  Athletes who have undergone male puberty is well documented here.   But it extends further.  Most workplaces now try to offer equality in promotion and ratios in the workplace/  Trans women will now be able to utilise the positive discrimination used to achieve this, and deprive biological women of possible advancement.

 

Inclusion.  Young people are now facing all sorts of pressure, not to explore their sexuality, but to identify as trans.  LGB fought for many years to allow people to explore their sexua;lity, yet the trans community are dominating social media, enclosed echo chamber as it is, to encourage such youngsters to become trans - and - this is very important, denouncing any LGB who offer advice or support with such vitriol they are ostracized, and by and large they appear to be leaving such communities in droves, offering the confused kids no alternative support.  Go look, if an LGB person opens their mouth, they  are immediately called transphobic or even gammon.

 

I don't pretend to have answers Greygo, i really don't, i really want everyone to be comfortable.  My big problem is that Stonewall for instance are NOT prepared to engage and debate and find a workable solution, they engage the With out knowledge or Education mob in a way Goebbels would be proud of, i really wish they'd accept there are other viewpoint, and other people affected by this, and enter discourse to find a way which encompasses everyone to live happy.

Excellent summary.  The problem is self id .  Its the massive issue where big burly blokes can indeed say they are female and demand access to women's spaces and actually gain this access I have no issue with any trans person who has went through the appropriate channels and eventually moved to the other sex via surgery ( however are still biologically male and always will be ).  But i think they may be less of a threat to biological women in women's spaces. There are some men who just self id as they get a sexual thrill and kick from it  ( Autogynephilia) and love the blatant exhibitionism of showing off in women's only spaces. Perverts dream come true really. You are completly right about the pressure on young gay and lesbians now and the impact and pressure from the trans lobby.  Its OK for boys to be feminine or camp  and girls to be tomboys and butch. It doesn't mean to say they are " born in the wrong body"  However some trans militants are almost indoctrinating young people into this. Twitter is an absolute nightmare if you want or try to have any reasonable and intellectual or respectful debate with some of the trans lobby. I deleted my account due to the amount of threats and abuse i received.  Some dangerous people out there in cyber space. 

1 hour ago, CF11JamTart said:

 And often as not, it's middle-aged lesbians who are getting shot down in flames for their apparent TERF tendencies. 

Yes and guess what middle aged lesbians are women. Even though ive had abuse on twitter etc the amount of abuse lesbians get is far worse. Again its men claiming to be trans ( self id) behind a lot of the abuse.  Again trying to erode women's identify. 

1 hour ago, Captain Slog said:

Agreed, gay community are getting it in the neck, but they arent driving that, its a hammer blow to their acceptance - not trans people, the tactics of the like of stonewall

Yes I think we are.  I really think its doing a lot of harm. 

27 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Peer pressure and fear of the accusation.you couldn’t even say “not my type”

as that would go downhill rapidly.

the pressure was always there before , but it’s crazy bad now.

 

I said before I had a " talk" with a transman who called me transphobic because I wasn't interested in him for a " date".   It is happening more and more with lesbians and gay men. Apparently its called a " genital fetish" if you are same sex attracted now by those loonies. 

18 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

What are “their rights” exactly?

what are they being denied?

I accept that I am denied access to female changing rooms etc because I have a cock.

that’s the simple breakdown .

women feel uncomfortable getting changed with the presence of someone with a cock. 
This has nothing to do with sexual attraction , otherwise gay men would be allowed in those spaces, but they are not.

Some women equate cock with threat and trauma ,

so don’t want them waggling around when they feel vulnerable.

 

Well said. 

[Captain Slog]

James what the hell did you do to your Avatar, I used to love and respect you, but that isn't a siren or silver screen icon, partygate ******* though he is

 

Ahh, i suppose he told the truth for the only time about athletes - someone elsewhere said, a stopped watch tells the right tim twice a day.

 

Hold on, in some bursd now

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Captain Slog

[JudyJudyJudy]

52 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

James what the hell did you do to your Avatar, I used to love and respect you, but that isn't a siren or silver screen icon, partygate ******* though he is

 

Ahh, i suppose he told the truth for the only time about athletes - someone elsewhere said, a stopped watch tells the right tim twice a day.

 

Hold on, in some bursd now

 

I couldn’t bare looking at his face on my profile any longer ! 😂 do a quick change to Bet Lynch 😂

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Some lesbians are being accused of transphobia and are being pressure into dating trans male- female even if they have a penis. BBC had a bit on it.

 

The BBC piece mentions a couple of stories told by individuals, but only one of those stories relates to someone getting pissed and sleeping with someone trans - with a suggestion that she felt pressurised by her peers at college rather than by the person she slept with.  Another is about a woman whose girlfriend quit the relationship because she didn't like the idea of a threesome with someone trans - a theoretical person rather than a real one by the look of the article.  It also features only one piece of research which was a survey done by someone who wasn't impartial and which wasn't peer reviewed, to which there were only 80 responses, in which 45 women said they felt pressurised into having sex with a trans partner, but there's very little to say by whom, how or why.

 

The woman who did that survey is like a one-person living study of this whole trans "debate".  She accepted that her survey respondents may not be representative of the experiences of lesbians generally, but she published it anyway because she believed it was important to capture their "points of view and stories".  It seems to me that regardless of who you are, or what side of the debate you're on, real factual data is taking second place to the feelings of people who seem to have a heightened capacity for taking offence.

 

On the other hand, the question of participation by trans women in women's sporting events is something than can and should be driven by the data.  The question of how much advantage someone gets from "training through and after male puberty" can be evaluated and assessed by sporting authorities - and if they haven't done it yet, they should do it now and not allow unfair competition until a thorough assessment has been done.  The question of testosterone levels is even more of a mess.  Universally (or almost universally), a level of testosterone is permitted in trans women that is almost 80% above the maximum level seen in female athletes generally - and trans women may compete after artificially maintaining this level for 12 months. The level permitted is too high, and the time period allowed is too short.

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, graygo said:

 

Pressured into it?  That's mental, they are allowed to say no I take it?

 

See above.

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, Captain Slog said:

 

I completely agree a third unisex toilets  is appropriate but wow - remember the furore when businesses just had to provide a wheelchair ramp.  May not be practibable because of the cost.  And i agree ability not gender, but unless you give a kid two orange boxes to watch a game, how do you get minorities to the proportion of the workplace they should be in,  And what of the kids that are minorities themselves with only one orange box?

 

 

I worked with a group of employers who were twice asked for their views on whether or not they would have problems with changing definitions of gender.  It was a big group, with more than 20,000 employees and over a quarter of a million regular clients. 

 

In 2013-14 they were asked about plans to allow people to change their gender identity.  The overwhelming majority of the group said the impact on them would be between nil and negligible.

 

In 2019-20 they were asked about plans to allow people to identify as non-binary, or more specifically as neither male nor female.  100% of the employers objected because of the implementation costs - either the infrastructural costs of a third set of loos, changing rooms, or similar facilities, or else the costs of changing almost all their IT and management information systems which have up to now been based on two sexes.  This group of employers/businesses estimated the cost of implementation at multiple millions of euro, and also pointed out that if all employers and customer service operations in the Irish economy had to do the same thing, the country wouldn't have either the construction or the IT services capacity to do it in any reasonable timeframe.

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Some lesbians are being accused of transphobia and are being pressure into dating trans male- female even if they have a penis. BBC had a bit on it.

No they are not. People can say what they want, but nobody can make anyone do anything.

[graygo]

7 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

See above.

 

👍. An unusually reasoned post on this thread.

[Ray Gin]

6 hours ago, ri Alban said:

No they are not. People can say what they want, but nobody can make anyone do anything.

 

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

 

If you were a lesbian, do you think you'd be shamed into going with a trans person who is a geezer. Naw. Thanks for playing Oblivion.

Edited April 7, 2022 by ri Alban

[JudyJudyJudy]

18 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

If you were a lesbian, do you think you'd be shamed into going with a trans person who is a geezer. Naw. Thanks for playing Oblivion.

Its more about the culture in gay and lesbian society.  If a lesbian says she isnt attracted to a transwomen she may be labelled a transphobe. Its something which LGB need to sort out really and make it clear its ok for lesbian or gay people not to " date" a transperson. I for would like my men to have a real C"""  not one made out of bits of skin from their arm. Call me old fashioned or just gay. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Anyway this mAde me laugh 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

The BBC piece mentions a couple of stories told by individuals, but only one of those stories relates to someone getting pissed and sleeping with someone trans - with a suggestion that she felt pressurised by her peers at college rather than by the person she slept with.  Another is about a woman whose girlfriend quit the relationship because she didn't like the idea of a threesome with someone trans - a theoretical person rather than a real one by the look of the article.  It also features only one piece of research which was a survey done by someone who wasn't impartial and which wasn't peer reviewed, to which there were only 80 responses, in which 45 women said they felt pressurised into having sex with a trans partner, but there's very little to say by whom, how or why.

 

The woman who did that survey is like a one-person living study of this whole trans "debate".  She accepted that her survey respondents may not be representative of the experiences of lesbians generally, but she published it anyway because she believed it was important to capture their "points of view and stories".  It seems to me that regardless of who you are, or what side of the debate you're on, real factual data is taking second place to the feelings of people who seem to have a heightened capacity for taking offence.

 

On the other hand, the question of participation by trans women in women's sporting events is something than can and should be driven by the data.  The question of how much advantage someone gets from "training through and after male puberty" can be evaluated and assessed by sporting authorities - and if they haven't done it yet, they should do it now and not allow unfair competition until a thorough assessment has been done.  The question of testosterone levels is even more of a mess.  Universally (or almost universally), a level of testosterone is permitted in trans women that is almost 80% above the maximum level seen in female athletes generally - and trans women may compete after artificially maintaining this level for 12 months. The level permitted is too high, and the time period allowed is too short.

It’s still a worrying issue in LGB society / culture just now where the militants are stating that gay or lesbians who do not fancy a trans person are transphobic . It’s concerning . I’ve given a few of those nutters a mouthful ( pardon the expression ;)) when they have tried to 

“ educate” me and inform me whom I should fancy or not . I worked that one out a long time ago so they can do one.