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jonesy
3 minutes ago, EH11_2NL said:

I understand that the various bodies have tests for levels of certain hormones in the athletes' bodies, but that really doesn't replace the fact that these 'trans' athletes have had the advantage of the male puberty experience - when the differences become more marked - and that their body was programmed to be male from an early age.

 

To answer your question, we are heading to a point at which the line no longer gets drawn at all. A complete rejection of biological objectivity.

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jackal

Mainly unfair on female athletes and cant think of a sport were being a female originally would benefit. Athletes spend years preparing for the Olympics and then a transgender rocks up and dominates the sport. I have no problem with people changing gender but they have a definite advantage even after hormone treatment.

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Sharpie
7 minutes ago, jackal said:

Should All Transgender Athletes Have to Compete in Men's… | Kialo

  

I have never had a will to win anything bad enough that I would subject myself to that indignity. I have every sympathy and support for anyone who has any doubts or concerns about their gender or other human psyche, but that is one step too far.

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6 minutes ago, jackal said:

Mainly unfair on female athletes and cant think of a sport were being a female originally would benefit. Athletes spend years preparing for the Olympics and then a transgender rocks up and dominates the sport. I have no problem with people changing gender but they have a definite advantage even after hormone treatment.

Floor gymnastics? 

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Lord BJ
1 hour ago, jonesy said:

I understand that the various bodies have tests for levels of certain hormones in the athletes' bodies, but that really doesn't replace the fact that these 'trans' athletes have had the advantage of the male puberty experience - when the differences become more marked - and that their body was programmed to be male from an early age.

 

To answer your question, we are heading to a point at which the line no longer gets drawn at all. A complete rejection of biological objectivity.


The going through puberty is a big thing in terms of exposure to tester one and the effects on things like bone density. It’s definitely not a level playing field. Things like combat sports, you really could be endangering people.

 

As an aside always find it strange the amount of ‘coverage’ trans rights get. As a percentage of the population it most impact a tiny proportion but the coverage it gets seems massively disproportionate,

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Justin Z
1 hour ago, jonesy said:

I understand that the various bodies have tests for levels of certain hormones in the athletes' bodies, but that really doesn't replace the fact that these 'trans' athletes have had the advantage of the male puberty experience - when the differences become more marked - and that their body was programmed to be male from an early age.

 

Some research seems to indicate the opposite of what you're claiming here. I'm sure there will be other research which shows different. But we need to be consistent as a starting point.

 

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

To answer your question, we are heading to a point at which the line no longer gets drawn at all. A complete rejection of biological objectivity.

 

And this ain't it. We are rejecting objectivity, yes, but exactly the opposite of the way you are claiming. From the article:

 

Transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels. Yet these state bills would force them to play with the boys. Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal.

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Ray Gin

Totally unfair on biological women in any sport where physical stature gives an advantage. 

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Just use the same kind of criteria that the Special Olympics uses.

Lots of categories based on individual ability, makes competition fairer for everybody.

The system is already there, just expand it to cover everybody.

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Sharpie
21 minutes ago, Cade said:

Just use the same kind of criteria that the Special Olympics uses.

Lots of categories based on individual ability, makes competition fairer for everybody.

The system is already there, just expand it to cover everybody.

 Are all categories not based on individual ability, even team sports require individual ability in the action in which they are being utilised for within the team. Not a simple solution to this modern  activity of amending parts of the body to correct gender , there has to be sympathy for someone who is forced to live in a gender which is contrary to all their physical and mental feelings. "However", a big word on many occasions, some sympathy must be given to female athletes who were born with a feminine body, and I am sure would find it difficult in cases and chosen competition to compete against a person who was born and lived and worked out in a masculine formed and muscular body.

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John Findlay
57 minutes ago, Cade said:

Just use the same kind of criteria that the Special Olympics uses.

Lots of categories based on individual ability, makes competition fairer for everybody.

The system is already there, just expand it to cover everybody.

How would you do this for team sports?

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jackal
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lord BJ said:


The going through puberty is a big thing in terms of exposure to tester one and the effects on things like bone density. It’s definitely not a level playing field. Things like combat sports, you really could be endangering people.

 

As an aside always find it strange the amount of ‘coverage’ trans rights get. As a percentage of the population it most impact a tiny proportion but the coverage it gets seems massively disproportionate,

There was a case of this not long ago when a male to female transgender was allowed to fight a female MMA fighter didnt end well when the female ended up with a fractured skull.

 

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/transgender-mma-fighter-who-broke-female-opponents-skull-are-we-getting-too-politically-correct-with-reality/

 

Must be a bit like playing against 18 year olds when you're 10

Edited by jackal
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milky_26
8 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

How would you do this for team sports?

the same way they do the paralympic swimming relays? the extent of disability is given a value and for the team the value must not exceed a specific value. This means you need to determine do you go with a fast more able bodied person and as a result a person with a more significant disability who will be a lot slower or two individuals who are more average. 

 

In the case of what @Cade is suggesting you would need some sort of system that took into account things like testosterone level, maybe height depending upon the event etc

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jonesy
2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Some research seems to indicate the opposite of what you're claiming here. I'm sure there will be other research which shows different. But we need to be consistent as a starting point.

 

 

And this ain't it. We are rejecting objectivity, yes, but exactly the opposite of the way you are claiming. From the article:

 

Transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels. Yet these state bills would force them to play with the boys. Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal.

Thought you'd be along to woke me up at some point, Justin ;) 

 

I think there will always be inconsistent findings in the research because the spectrum of people in the 'male' and 'female' categories is so broad. Look at Uche and then Elliot Frear. Totally different body shape and attributes, but both blokes (one assumes... :) ).

 

For me, the very fact that there have to be studies and research into what constitutes a bloke and a bird suggests we've already well and truly leapt the carcharodon. Biology gave us a pretty good hint with those innies and outies between our legs.

 

I suppose the next step would be for folk with body integrity dysphoria to be allowed to participate in the Paralympics, because after all, it's what we feel inside that counts.

 

 

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Sharpie
30 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

the same way they do the paralympic swimming relays? the extent of disability is given a value and for the team the value must not exceed a specific value. This means you need to determine do you go with a fast more able bodied person and as a result a person with a more significant disability who will be a lot slower or two individuals who are more average. 

 

In the case of what @Cade is suggesting you would need some sort of system that took into account things like testosterone level, maybe height depending upon the event etc

 Reasonable suggestions, but if you restrict a trans gender for height, can a similar height non trans be restricted in the same way. If two women compete in say hurdles, the taller girl would to some extent have an advantage, and I am sure this has been acceptable in the past. The danger is if a decision is made on being trans gender is there not an immediate appeal based on gender, such as trans, being claimed an act of discrimination. I am not sure how it would be accepted as any form of stating a difference is now accepted as discriminatory, but would a classification of gender be possible i.e trans where all competitors have made the choice, entry confirms an agreement that physical differences e.g height weight etc. may be a factor but are acceptable in the classifications, as they would be in non trans genders. 

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milky_26
Just now, Sharpie said:

 Reasonable suggestions, but if you restrict a trans gender for height, can a similar height non trans be restricted in the same way. If two women compete in say hurdles, the taller girl would to some extent have an advantage, and I am sure this has been acceptable in the past. The danger is if a decision is made on being trans gender is there not an immediate appeal based on gender, such as trans, being claimed an act of discrimination. I am not sure how it would be accepted as any form of stating a difference is now accepted as discriminatory, but would a classification of gender be possible i.e trans where all competitors have made the choice, entry confirms an agreement that physical differences e.g height weight etc. may be a factor but are acceptable in the classifications, as they would be in non trans genders. 

all valid points, i was just throwing something out there, i have no idea if it could work in practice or what things would be part of the items that would determine groups/scoring

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Oh, the arguments over which category each paralympic athlete is put in are constant.

There are so many different ability categories and every athlete has a different level of ability to everybody else.

It's not easy to put the schedules together.

But the face that competition in that particular aspect of the sport is tight means they must be doing something right, overall.

If one athlete was dominating any given event then perhaps they'd be in the wrong category.

And likewise if an athlete is constantly struggling, perhaps they too are in the wrong category.

 

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Justin Z
38 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Thought you'd be along to woke me up at some point, Justin ;)

 

And I sadly thought you'd go this way rather than engage with the data. I realise it's far less effort.

 

42 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I think there will always be inconsistent findings in the research because the spectrum of people in the 'male' and 'female' categories is so broad. Look at Uche and then Elliot Frear. Totally different body shape and attributes, but both blokes (one assumes... :) ).

 

One assumes indeed, yet we've been collectively telling women which of them are not actually women for a lot longer than the trans “debate” (in actuality, anything but) has been at the forefront. Maybe we should stop doing that, not only because it's a shitty thing to do, but like you pointed out, we seem to never do that to men.

 

39 minutes ago, jonesy said:

For me, the very fact that there have to be studies and research into what constitutes a bloke and a bird suggests we've already well and truly leapt the carcharodon. Biology gave us a pretty good hint with those innies and outies between our legs.

 

Not particularly. But I realise claiming as such is, again, far easier than actually going to any effort to understand the reality. So here. All the work done for you:

Mic drop.

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Der Kaiser

It's a No from me.

 

*Differences in muscle and skeletal mass.

 

*Retaining hormonal biology

 

*That report that said Transwomen maintained an advantage even after suppressing testosterone for 2 years.

 

You can't guarantee a level playing field so congratulations on finding your identity but sorry you can't compete with non transgender athletes as the avoidance of doubt can't be removed.

 

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jonesy
24 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

And I sadly thought you'd go this way rather than engage with the data. I realise it's far less effort.

 

 

One assumes indeed, yet we've been collectively telling women which of them are not actually women for a lot longer than the trans “debate” (in actuality, anything but) has been at the forefront. Maybe we should stop doing that, not only because it's a shitty thing to do, but like you pointed out, we seem to never do that to men.

 

 

Not particularly. But I realise claiming as such is, again, far easier than actually going to any effort to understand the reality. So here. All the work done for you:

Mic drop.

:) 

 

When you're wheeling out the clownfish, flatworms and slime mold (US?), then it's fair to say you're trying too hard because the argument has been lost. Much like Beslija's famous cross, those examples are neither relevant or that impressive.

 

One wee point: if gender is a social construct, why does it need a self-proclaimed science teacher to highlight cases where biology is in play to make people 'transgender'?

 

Look, if folk want to adopt the attitudes, dress, habits and even some of the physical characteristics of the opposite gender to help them feel more comfortable with themselves, they should knock themselves out, and have society's full backing. But shifting objective reality in situations like sports due to the need to support those who clearly need support and love is not an answer that is fair to the majority of competitors, nor is it safe in competitive sports.

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Justin Z
1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Look, if folk want to adopt the attitudes, dress, habits and even some of the physical characteristics of the opposite gender to help them feel more comfortable with themselves, they should knock themselves out, and have society's full backing. But shifting objective reality in situations like sports due to the need to support those who clearly need support and love is not an answer that is fair to the majority of competitors, nor is it safe in competitive sports.

 

Quite good post except for that bit. Being a decent sort, I imagine you'll get there eventually.

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jonesy
4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Quite good post except for that bit. Being a decent sort, I imagine you'll get there eventually.

Nice of you to bash out a patronising wee post like that to avoid answering the two questions I put in my previous posts re BID and the inability of trans-activists and their allies to align their social constructivist and biology-based arguments. Being a decent sort, I imagine you'll realise your mistakes eventually 😜 

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Justin Z
1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Nice of you to bash out a patronising wee post like that to avoid answering the two questions I put in my previous posts re BID and the inability of trans-activists and their allies to align their social constructivist and biology-based arguments. Being a decent sort, I imagine you'll realise your mistakes eventually 😜 

 

You started with a "woke" cheap shot. When you're ready to have a grown up big boy conversation, then I'll consider re-answering the questions I already covered the basis of in my posts, the tone of which have been civil in spite of my better judgement.

 

You could more easily just actually read what's there, but again, the whole effort thing, I get it.

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jonesy
1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

You started with a "woke" cheap shot. When you're ready to have a grown up big boy conversation, then I'll consider re-answering the questions I already covered the basis of in my posts, the tone of which have been civil in spite of my better judgement.

 

You could more easily just actually read what's there, but again, the whole effort thing, I get it.

Justin, seriously, I thought given our limited previous exchanges on here a wee light-hearted jab like that at the start would be fine with you. It wasn't a cheap shot, FFS!

 

You have used every post to suggest that I don't read background information on topics such as these, which is incorrect. That we arrive at different conclusions is not a problem, but your attitude - which is far more consistent and evident across a variety of political and current affairs threads, is - seeking to belittle those who disagree with you, while giving back as good as you get in the cut and thrust of honest exchanges and then calling foul if you cannot win is McPakeism at its worst.

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Justin Z
1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Justin, seriously, I thought given our limited previous exchanges on here a wee light-hearted jab like that at the start would be fine with you. It wasn't a cheap shot, FFS!

 

Well, then I apologise for misunderstanding. My bad, no excuses.

 

 

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TheOak88
4 hours ago, Justin Z said:

Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal.

 

:cornette:

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jonesy
Just now, Justin Z said:

 

Well, then I apologise for misunderstanding. My bad, no excuses.

 

 

🤝

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Taffin

There will always be people at a genetic advantage in sport...maybe categorisation by sex isn't the best way to do it?

 

Or just do away with it altogether.

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Justin Z
Just now, Taffin said:

There will always be people at a genetic advantage in sport...maybe categorisation by sex isn't the best way to do it?

 

Especially since women who were assigned female at birth and have always identified as women are also caught up in this rush to demonise trans people, yes. Some cis women have many more times more testosterone than others, trans women included. Are they also to be barred?

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jonesy
7 minutes ago, Taffin said:

There will always be people at a genetic advantage in sport...maybe categorisation by sex isn't the best way to do it?

Perhaps we could do it by race?*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*not serious

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Taffin
1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Especially since women who were assigned female at birth and have always identified as women are also caught up in this rush to demonise trans people, yes. Some cis women have many more times more testosterone than others, trans women included. Are they also to be barred?

 

I'm not suggesting anyone be barred, but rather than having male/female sports we categorise on something else.

 

It would lead to the pinnacle in most (not all) being dominated by males but that's not so different from today I guess.

 

 

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Justin Z
Just now, Taffin said:

I'm not suggesting anyone be barred, but rather than having male/female sports we categorise on something else.

 

I know you're not, I was just following your train of thought there, and highlighting the absurd effects not changing the categorisation has had, even leaving trans folks out of it. So maybe your suggestion to change the way it's set up is not so daft after all.

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Taffin
Just now, Justin Z said:

 

I know you're not, I was just following your train of thought there, and highlighting the absurd effects not changing the categorisation has had, even leaving trans folks out of it. So maybe your suggestion to change the way it's set up is not so daft after all.

 

 

👍👍

 

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JamesM48
On 07/05/2021 at 16:47, Lord BJ said:


The going through puberty is a big thing in terms of exposure to tester one and the effects on things like bone density. It’s definitely not a level playing field. Things like combat sports, you really could be endangering people.

 

As an aside always find it strange the amount of ‘coverage’ trans rights get. As a percentage of the population it most impact a tiny proportion but the coverage it gets seems massively disproportionate,

The trans group seem to be very militant as well as very angry . They are doing untold harm to LGB rights by their militancy and aggressive response to any discussion around this subject and other subjects . One thing is certain , you cannot change your sex yet they believe you can. You simply cannot argue with this scientific and biological fact . However they do . I feel for female sex athletes who have maybe trained for years to try and achieve sporting success to have it stolen from them by another competitor who should never even be in the same competition as them . It’s absolute madness . Women are losing their sex based rights they fought so hard to acquire due to this. You now have a situation trans women without any medical procedures and who just send identify as women can now enter women’s refuges, changing rooms and bathrooms . Im Not saying that some trans women can be predatory as it’s very low rates of that behaviour but it just feels that what constitutes a women is being erased. 

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Cruyff

Ridiculous. Even if these guys were taking female hormones, they are still 10% stronger or faster than female athletes. It's simply not fair on those woman competing against genetically male athletes and imo it undermines the principle of sporting integrity and fair competition. 

 

I understand that trans folk should have the right to compete equally but it should not be at the expense of others. 

 

I don't see any other way forward than having a trans sections for male to female and female to male athletes. 

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Sarah O
3 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

The trans group seem to be very militant as well as very angry . They are doing untold harm to LGB rights by their militancy and aggressive response to any discussion around this subject and other subjects . One thing is certain , you cannot change your sex yet they believe you can. You simply cannot argue with this scientific and biological fact . However they do . I feel for female sex athletes who have maybe trained for years to try and achieve sporting success to have it stolen from them by another competitor who should never even be in the same competition as them . It’s absolute madness . Women are losing their sex based rights they fought so hard to acquire due to this. You now have a situation trans women without any medical procedures and who just send identify as women can now enter women’s refuges, changing rooms and bathrooms . Im Not saying that some trans women can be predatory as it’s very low rates of that behaviour but it just feels that what constitutes a women is being erased. 

Spot on. 

 

Wait till the Greens get Self ID to be the norm. 

 

Tattie bye wummin. 

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JamesM48
4 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Spot on. 

 

Wait till the Greens get Self ID to be the norm. 

 

Tattie bye wummin. 

Thank you . 
I am a member of the “ pink news “ on Facebook which used to be just about advice and information about LGB issues . It was a friendly group not now is has been taken over by those militants . They regularly abuse me by calling me “ ok boomer “ “ white privileged  cis old man “ when I make my views about this subject in a respectful manner . They are incredibly angry ! They tend to be a certain type of person . Usually younger types “ non binary “ “ trans “ pansexual” blah blah blah . I try and remind them that they seem to forget that the older generation of LGB fought for equality and the rights they now currently enjoy ! I tends to fall on deaf ears. . A very ungrateful crowd really . I think they are very angry as they know deep down one cannot change sex bit refuse to acknowledge this so just hurl abuse and ridicule of older people . They also have a tendency to re write gay history such as the “ stonewall riots “ stating that it was trans people who started it ! It wasn’t ! But once a lie is believed it just grows . I recall in my work working with women who were victims of domestic abuse and I would never have been allowed into a refuge even as a worker due to my sex but now I think “ rape crisis “ in Scotland has a trans man as the CEO of it ? It beggars belief . Those poor vulnerable women and women in general are now being erased . Another example of an argument was that “ all people menstruate” NO. Women menstruate ! Boy again they will not listen to biological evidence . It’s a body dysmorthia issue I feel as well as mental health issue . There is also growing evidence that young gay and lesbian people ashamed that they might be gay : lesbian are now vulnerable to thinking they might be gay / lesbian and would rather be trans than be gay / lesbian . It’s the lesser of two evils in their immature outlook. It doesn’t help that the quacks And medical professionals go along with this delusion . There was an article about a young “ girl “ who now identifies as a female and they were cheering “ her “ on as “ brave “ and “ inspiring “ He is 4 years old !!! Eliot Page isn’t helping matters either and looks thoroughly miserable and deeply unhappy now he has had the change ( body mutilation ) but he is now viewed as a role model . Tragic for him as his career is now down the drain too . It’s all very tragic I feel and does no service to the small amount of trans people who really want to transist and have to go through rigorous therapy and tests before any procedures . 

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AlimOzturk

Why don’t trans women athletes just have a separate category for them? Am I missing something here?

 

Basically open to so much abuse. When you see weight lifters like above then it makes a mockery of fair and balance competition. 

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Spellczech

Simple truth is that you will never see any men who were women competing in the Olympics, but you will potentially see lots of women who used to be men competing...Even Kaitlyn Jenner thinks it unfair for goodness sake. 

 

When I was at Uni in the 90s I'm sure the group was called LGB but since the T and the + got added it has become much more vocal and to be fair successful in its aims. However, there is bound to be dissension soon as the tail is wagging the dog and the minority of the minority is now ruling not just the minority but the majority...

 

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Spellczech
2 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Why don’t trans women athletes just have a separate category for them? Am I missing something here?

 

Basically open to so much abuse. When you see weight lifters like above then it makes a mockery of fair and balance competition. 

Probably not big enough - You could add anyone who has failed a drugs test to that group and the Olympics would become like powerlifting where there are clean and juiced categories. Problem with categorisation is that it actually would fit better with the paralympics than the Olympics proper and they'd complain that is discrimination!!

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JamesM48
8 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Why don’t trans women athletes just have a separate category for them? Am I missing something here?

 

Basically open to so much abuse. When you see weight lifters like above then it makes a mockery of fair and balance competition. 

That’s too sensible and fair 

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JamesM48
6 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Simple truth is that you will never see any men who were women competing in the Olympics, but you will potentially see lots of women who used to be men competing...Even Kaitlyn Jenner thinks it unfair for goodness sake. 

 

When I was at Uni in the 90s I'm sure the group was called LGB but since the T and the + got added it has become much more vocal and to be fair successful in its aims. However, there is bound to be dissension soon as the tail is wagging the dog and the minority of the minority is now ruling not just the minority but the majority...

 

Unsure that the group became more successful when T was added . That’s. Myth . Certainly more vocal , angry and unwilling to debate and compromise about issues . Trans issues have seeped into gay or lesbian cultures too where I have been accused of being “ transphobic “ because I wouldn’t “ date “ a trans man !!! As “ transmen are men “ it got to the stage in the argument that I had to state clearly that I only “ date “ men who have a ^^^^ ! That’s my definition of a man !! I think that’s pretty accurate . Ofcourse they went ape shit . Sadly there are growing numbers of gay men who are trying to be too nice and sensitive to this issue who state they would “ date “ a trans man. This is out of fear of being labelled a transphobic . As well as women being erased gay and lesbian people are too with those issues . 

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Spellczech
1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

Unsure that the group became more successful when T was added . That’s. Myth . Certainly more vocal , angry and unwilling to debate and compromise about issues . Trans issues have seeped into gay or lesbian cultures too where I have been accused of being “ transphobic “ because I wouldn’t “ date “ a trans man !!! As “ transmen are men “ it got to the stage in the argument that I had to state clearly that I only “ date “ men who have a ^^^^ ! That’s my definition of a man !! I think that’s pretty accurate . Ofcourse they went ape shit . Sadly there are growing numbers of gay men who are trying to be too nice and sensitive to this issue who state they would “ date “ a trans man. This is out of fear of being labelled a transphobic . As well as women being erased gay and lesbian people are too with those issues . 

Did the irony of denying choice not strike them as a problematic aspect of their argument? 

 

I find all this stuff a bit of a head-shaker TBH, as the "discussion" of such issues is always akin to a person standing on the battlement of a castle on a hill, waving a spear at someone else across a flooded plain standing on the battlement of their own castle, on a different hill...

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JamesM48
11 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Did the irony of denying choice not strike them as a problematic aspect of their argument? 

 

I find all this stuff a bit of a head-shaker TBH, as the "discussion" of such issues is always akin to a person standing on the battlement of a castle on a hill, waving a spear at someone else across a flooded plain standing on the battlement of their own castle, on a different hill...

Well the transphobic argument could easily be made to heterosexual men and women who could be accused of being homophobic if they didn’t want to “. Date” gay / lesbian people . It’s that’s ludicrous really . 

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indianajones
37 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Why don’t trans women athletes just have a separate category for them? Am I missing something here?

 

Basically open to so much abuse. When you see weight lifters like above then it makes a mockery of fair and balance competition. 

 

They will have some chip on their shoulders about being forgotten and not included in conventional leagues etc. Almost always seem to be offended. 

 

There is a reason for different weight and sex classes in sport. 

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4 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Unsure that the group became more successful when T was added . That’s. Myth . Certainly more vocal , angry and unwilling to debate and compromise about issues . Trans issues have seeped into gay or lesbian cultures too where I have been accused of being “ transphobic “ because I wouldn’t “ date “ a trans man !!! As “ transmen are men “ it got to the stage in the argument that I had to state clearly that I only “ date “ men who have a ^^^^ ! That’s my definition of a man !! I think that’s pretty accurate . Ofcourse they went ape shit . Sadly there are growing numbers of gay men who are trying to be too nice and sensitive to this issue who state they would “ date “ a trans man. This is out of fear of being labelled a transphobic . As well as women being erased gay and lesbian people are too with those issues . 


Having seen such interactions unfold online and being pretty angered by the vitriol towards the “transphobes” I sympathise with you. 

I’ve seen several “conversations” of men stating they wouldn’t knowingly date a trans women being labelled as transphobic (often by lesbian white knights). Stuff like that really hinders the LGBTQ+ cause. The CIS men aren’t allowed a preference. I’m not surprised you’ve experienced similar as a gay man. 
 

I’ve also seen a great deal of posts online of Trans women revealing that they have kept their gender change hidden from partners (surgery must be fairly convincing). I completely support the trans community in search of a more equal place in society but find that completely abhorrent on many levels.

Often the arguments are along the lines of “if trans women reveal they are trans they get severely beaten”, completely missing the fact that if they didn’t dupe CIS men into a relationship they wouldn’t be in the position of taking a beating. 
 

If my missus turned round and said she used to be a bloke I’d be offski, 7 years in or not. Wouldn’t beat her up though I’d maybe wipe my arse with her toothbrush. 

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