Trans athletes

[Mr Brightside]

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

I agree with your points. 

It’s such a complex issue. Society needs to accommodate people you are genuinely trans but also has a duty to protect women from an erosion of their rights. Society also needs to look after young people and prevent them from transitioning too early as they may regret it in the future.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Mr Brightside said:

It’s such a complex issue. Society needs to accommodate people you are genuinely trans but also has a duty to protect women from an erosion of their rights. Society also needs to look after young people and prevent them from transitioning too early as they may regret it in the future.

Agreed 

[fabienleclerq]

Complex subject. 

 

My take, gay rights etc was fighting for their rights to be seen as equal and allow them to be legally gay or get married etc. Really just have the same rights as me. It didn't infringe on anyone else's rights, just made them equality. 

 

Trans appears to be slightly opposite especially when we are talking about sport. They are essentially infringing on woman's rights to gain their own. 

 

Im not really sure that's cricket,or if I'm completely honest what the actual fight is now. 

 

They have an undeniable advantage in sport and you should compete as the gender you were born imo, I doubt there is enough trans to create their own category. Women's spaces should be for biological women.

[The Dragon Reborn]

1 hour ago, fabienleclerq said:

My take, gay rights etc was fighting for their rights to be seen as equal and allow them to be legally gay or get married etc. Really just have the same rights as me. It didn't infringe on anyone else's rights, just made them equality. 

 

Trans appears to be slightly opposite especially when we are talking about sport. They are essentially infringing on woman's rights to gain their own. 

Totally agree 👍🏻

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

Totally agree 👍🏻

 

Me too. The concept of fairness is very important in society and to me as an individual. Trans male->females competing in sport against non-trans females is inherently unfair in sports where men normally excel due to strength and other gender differences. The natural answer is to have separate trans sporting events, but that won't happen until there are a sufficient number of trans athletes around to make those viable.

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 hours ago, fabienleclerq said:

Complex subject. 

 

My take, gay rights etc was fighting for their rights to be seen as equal and allow them to be legally gay or get married etc. Really just have the same rights as me. It didn't infringe on anyone else's rights, just made them equality. 

 

Trans appears to be slightly opposite especially when we are talking about sport. They are essentially infringing on woman's rights to gain their own. 

 

Im not really sure that's cricket,or if I'm completely honest what the actual fight is now. 

 

They have an undeniable advantage in sport and you should compete as the gender you were born imo, I doubt there is enough trans to create their own category. Women's spaces should be for biological women.

Good points . Just one issue though . No one is born into a gender . You are born as a sex , either male or female . Gender is just mumbo jumbo nonsense , based on stereotypical views of what is male or female . 

[Captain Slog]

Im failing to see logic here too.  I'm sure I'll be shot down and educated though.  I thought they banned performance affecting drugs?  So there were no more russian shot putter women bigger than men,  So why are these men who want to compete as women allowed drugs to low just testosterone, just one part of the advantage a male body givs?

 

I'm all for allowing them to take part, only if they can lower their testosterone without performance affecting drugs.  Which they can't cos thats cheating

 

[fabienleclerq]

6 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Good points . Just one issue though . No one is born into a gender . You are born as a sex , either male or female . Gender is just mumbo jumbo nonsense , based on stereotypical views of what is male or female . 

 

Gender and sex are the same thing to me, either male or female. 

[New Town Loafer]

3 hours ago, Captain Slog said:

Im failing to see logic here too.  I'm sure I'll be shot down and educated though.  I thought they banned performance affecting drugs?  So there were no more russian shot putter women bigger than men,  So why are these men who want to compete as women allowed drugs to low just testosterone, just one part of the advantage a male body givs?

 

I'm all for allowing them to take part, only if they can lower their testosterone without performance affecting drugs.  Which they can't cos thats cheating

 

Interesting point.

25 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

Gender and sex are the same thing to me, either male or female. 

Same here. I actually just avoid the word gender now as it’s become so politicised and vague.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

Gender and sex are the same thing to me, either male or female. 

Nope . Sorry they are not . 

[doctor jambo]

16 hours ago, fabienleclerq said:

Complex subject. 

 

My take, gay rights etc was fighting for their rights to be seen as equal and allow them to be legally gay or get married etc. Really just have the same rights as me. It didn't infringe on anyone else's rights, just made them equality. 

 

Trans appears to be slightly opposite especially when we are talking about sport. They are essentially infringing on woman's rights to gain their own. 

 

Im not really sure that's cricket,or if I'm completely honest what the actual fight is now. 

 

They have an undeniable advantage in sport and you should compete as the gender you were born imo, I doubt there is enough trans to create their own category. Women's spaces should be for biological women.

Perhaps the way around it in sport is to exclude on the basis that up until hormone suppression they were essentially doping every single day.

It’s not like a female athlete could administer themselves testosterone every day for years then stop in order to compete and the governing bodies would just clear them to do it.

So why allow it?

[fabienleclerq]

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Nope . Sorry they are not . 

They are to me, you disagree which is fine. You're wrong though🙂

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, fabienleclerq said:

They are to me, you disagree which is fine. You're wrong though🙂

Fair enough 

[redjambo]

I could be wrong with this, but gender and sex have traditionally referred to the same thing, being synonymously used for the same concept. However, in the latter half of the 20th century when the idea of folk identifying as having a different gender/sex than they were born with became popular, and the whole argument arose as to whether the gender/sex you are born with is in fact mutable or immutable, the term gender started to be used in a different way, first academically and then more generally, to distinguish between biological sex and identified sex.

 

So, when folk such as Fabien above say that they believe gender and sex to be the same thing, they could well just be referring to the traditional usage of the terms rather than implying any commentary on the mutability of one's birth sex/gender.

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, redjambo said:

I could be wrong with this, but gender and sex have traditionally referred to the same thing, being synonymously used for the same concept. However, in the latter half of the 20th century when the idea of folk identifying as having a different gender/sex than they were born with became popular, and the whole argument arose as to whether the gender/sex you are born with is in fact mutable or immutable, the term gender started to be used in a different way, first academically and then more generally, to distinguish between biological sex and identified sex.

 

So, when folk such as Fabien above say that they believe gender and sex to be the same thing, they could well just be referring to the traditional usage of the terms rather than implying any commentary on the mutability of one's birth sex/gender.

The problem with concepts of gender are they tend to stereotype male and females attributes and qualities. Perpetuating stereotypes. This has been discussed time and again on this thread.  There is no issue regarding sex.  There are only 2. Male or female.  That will never change. 

[jack D and coke]

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Well

said Billy 😂😂

[A Boy Named Crow]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

There should be a quick link to this clip on here, would save so much time 😁

[JudyJudyJudy]

Good news . Common sense at last 

 

 

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/transgender-swimmers-who-went-through-male-puberty-barred-from-female-events/320931?fbclid=IwAR1J4l1yTi66Co4SHS9_aEC1wx_TPMmkjqBGxXcJxsl0oiyqYWhYlO2TWrA&fs=e&s=cl

[Ray Gin]

Correct decision.

[A Boy Named Crow]

Had to happen, the alternative was utter madness!

[Cade]

No matter how many hormone blockers you take, bone density and muscle mass of male-female trans are different to cis females.

In certain sports, such as swimming, this matters far more than in others.

 

It's good that the swimming federation have made a new class so they can still compete and not simply be barred from both men's and women's competition.

 

This is the kind of well thought out, considered and science based decision that sports need to adopt.

Blanket bans and knee-jerk reactions is not the way.

 

 

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

Depends on what other sports decide. Legal challenges will be forthcoming from those who feel marginalised.

[Tazio]

The chances of a reasonable civilised debate and resolution to this issue seems further away all the time. As with any issue extremists of all shades will be the loudest voices even if they are the smallest in number. The extreme trans movement have a number of people who are willing to gather and protest at the drop of a hat. Some shameful scenes in Bristol yesterday against a meeting of women discussing women’s rights. 

[EH11_2NL]

17 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Good news . Common sense at last 

 

 

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/transgender-swimmers-who-went-through-male-puberty-barred-from-female-events/320931?fbclid=IwAR1J4l1yTi66Co4SHS9_aEC1wx_TPMmkjqBGxXcJxsl0oiyqYWhYlO2TWrA&fs=e&s=cl

Have to say, I never saw that coming when I first posted this thread. The exact opposite actually. Common sense has prevailed and Lia Thomas et al can now fade into obscurity rather than insult genuine women competitors and before anyone says 'trans women are real women', they aren't. 

[graygo]

35 minutes ago, Tazio said:

The chances of a reasonable civilised debate and resolution to this issue seems further away all the time. As with any issue extremists of all shades will be the loudest voices even if they are the smallest in number. The extreme trans movement have a number of people who are willing to gather and protest at the drop of a hat. Some shameful scenes in Bristol yesterday against a meeting of women discussing women’s rights. 

 

Like you say, extremists exist in all shades so probably fair to give an example to even out the pro-trans extremist view you posted with an example of the anti-trans extremist view.

Even Pride slate them by saying  "The protest group showed a level of bigotry, ignorance and hate that is unacceptable. We reject what this group stands for. They do not share our values, which are about inclusion and respect and support for the most marginalised parts of our community"

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44757403

[JudyJudyJudy]

29 minutes ago, EH11_2NL said:

Have to say, I never saw that coming when I first posted this thread. The exact opposite actually. Common sense has prevailed and Lia Thomas et al can now fade into obscurity rather than insult genuine women competitors and before anyone says 'trans women are real women', they aren't. 

Yes the tide is turning ! Sorry for the water analogy but it seemed appropriate . The “ fad “ of trans identity will now level out and the genuine people who believe themselves to be trans and seek surgery and therapy will be the minority of those who claim to be “ trans” the genuine minority . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Depends on what other sports decide. Legal challenges will be forthcoming from those who feel marginalised.

Unfortunately they are “ always the victim “ or claim to be more precisely 

1 hour ago, Tazio said:

The chances of a reasonable civilised debate and resolution to this issue seems further away all the time. As with any issue extremists of all shades will be the loudest voices even if they are the smallest in number. The extreme trans movement have a number of people who are willing to gather and protest at the drop of a hat. Some shameful scenes in Bristol yesterday against a meeting of women discussing women’s rights. 

It was disgusting . Mainly a bunch of thuggish men supporting trans people . Scary scenes . Why they weren’t lifted I’ll never know . Oh yes I do know , again they are meant to be the “ victims “ 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

4 hours ago, Tazio said:

The chances of a reasonable civilised debate and resolution to this issue seems further away all the time. As with any issue extremists of all shades will be the loudest voices even if they are the smallest in number. The extreme trans movement have a number of people who are willing to gather and protest at the drop of a hat. Some shameful scenes in Bristol yesterday against a meeting of women discussing women’s rights. 

 

The level of debate on both sides is scary - like, wildly intolerant of alternative views or genuine concerns and getting more and more extreme. Everyone needs to take a step back, breathe and discuss the issue rationally (which is clearly never going to happen because society just doesn’t work like that anymore).

 

I’m very pro trans rights but I do have a problem with a load of masked blokes turning up and telling women what to think. Antifa are an odd lot. I was in Leeds once when they tried to gatecrash this event owing to crossed wires (basically, they’d decided someone was a fascist and were there to protest/disrupt, only for it to turn out they had the wrong person and the event was nothing to do with them). They retreated very quickly after starting a fight and finding that plenty of people at the event were happy to give them one. Couple of antifa got badly beaten. Wasn’t a pleasant experience and I was pretty bewildered by the whole thing

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well said Sharon 

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10935779/Common-sense-won-swimming-sport-stand-women-writes-SHARRON-DAVIES.html?ito=facebook_share_article-top&fbclid=IwAR0HWgHLVL5rYaGD7q-vPV3ODylU8Ztacb6M5cV0kCXxyv3d2g-pMx1X5ok&fs=e&s=cl#l4nyi3t5227duur1wvc

[ri Alban]

I feel sorry for folk. But we have to draw a line. And now we need to find a solution (not a German solution), but the world has changed and we need to cater for everyone, as long as that doesn't intrude on other people's lives. 

 

 

 

[John Findlay]

8 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I feel sorry for folk. But we have to draw a line. And now we need to find a solution (not a German solution), but the world has changed and we need to cater for everyone, as long as that doesn't intrude on other people's lives. 

 

 

 

Slowly humming the Mission Impossible music to myself.

[ri Alban]

39 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Slowly humming the Mission Impossible music to myself.

There is always a way. But folk don't want to work at it. 

[Sarah O]

 

This doctor says that there is no advantage to this woman after her time being a man. None at all. Nope. Infact, she's at a disadvantage. 

 

 

[Sarah O]

 

A disadvantage. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, Sarah O said:

 

This doctor says that there is no advantage to this woman after her time being a man. None at all. Nope. Infact, she's at a disadvantage. 

 

 

 

These people are either delusional or seriously mentally ill , or both . Body dysmorphia thrown in too . 

Edited June 22, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, Sarah O said:

 

A disadvantage. 

 

 

Of course they want a female to head the AFL ffs !!! The clue is in the acronym AFL ! Absolute madness . 

[Bindy Badgy]

On 20/06/2022 at 17:48, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I’m very pro trans rights but I do have a problem with a load of masked blokes turning up and telling women what to think. Antifa are an odd lot. I was in Leeds once when they tried to gatecrash this event owing to crossed wires (basically, they’d decided someone was a fascist and were there to protest/disrupt, only for it to turn out they had the wrong person and the event was nothing to do with them). They retreated very quickly after starting a fight and finding that plenty of people at the event were happy to give them one. Couple of antifa got badly beaten. Wasn’t a pleasant experience and I was pretty bewildered by the whole thing

 

What was the event?

 

As far as I'm aware, there is no organisation called Antifa. It's just a catch-all term that's used to describe all groups with a similar ideology.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Bindy Badgy said:

 

What was the event?

 

As far as I'm aware, there is no organisation called Antifa. It's just a catch-all term that's used to describe all groups with a similar ideology.

It was a womens group meeting in a pub , the men outside dressed up didn’t like women talking about issues which impact so they successfully managed to silence the women , with the help of the police too , 

[Ray Gin]

Common sense prevails:

 

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/world-athletics-exclude-transgender-women-160000922.html

World Athletics to exclude transgender women from female events

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

Common sense prevails:

 

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/world-athletics-exclude-transgender-women-160000922.html

World Athletics to exclude transgender women from female events

A good and sensible decision.

[Lord Montpelier]

4 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

Common sense prevails:

 

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/world-athletics-exclude-transgender-women-160000922.html

World Athletics to exclude transgender women from female events

Slowly, but surely, there does finally appear to be an outbreak of common sense on this issue. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

30 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Slowly, but surely, there does finally appear to be an outbreak of common sense on this issue. 

Yep. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

Look forward to reading Tom Daley's comments on this decision. He will be fuming. Of course, he is unaffected by it personally and his career won't be impacted, unlike the female swimmers who are losing out to men in competition (and who have to use same changing facilities as these men).

Sensible decision.

[Shooter McGavin]

I do think this is the right decision.

[Australis]

Why is there not a transgender Olympics, winter Olympics, football world cup, golf classic or something similar.

 

Surely TV and investors would be all over it.

 

[indianajones]

1 hour ago, Australis said:

Why is there not a transgender Olympics, winter Olympics, football world cup, golf classic or something similar.

 

Surely TV and investors would be all over it.

 

 

Number issue probably. 

 

World class athletes are a rare breed. Trans likely even rarer despite the force fed news on the issue!

[neilnunb]

1 hour ago, Australis said:

Why is there not a transgender Olympics, winter Olympics, football world cup, golf classic or something similar.

 

Surely TV and investors would be all over it.

 

 

They do have the Gay Games, which is a smaller version of the Olympics.

 

[Tazio]

1 hour ago, Australis said:

Why is there not a transgender Olympics, winter Olympics, football world cup, golf classic or something similar.

 

Surely TV and investors would be all over it.

 

Imagine the hilarity of an Olympics where all the women’s records were better than the men’s records. 

[Lovecraft]

Laurel will be gutted.