Is the UK finished?

[Justin Z]

30 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Piss off nobhead

 

Imagine getting this worked up on the internet

[Weakened Offender]

5 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Imagine getting this worked up on the internet

 

He's not hugely brilliant at doing that IGNORE thing. 😁

[tcjambo]

Loads of confirmation bias on this thread ans clearly not watching the woeful state of Scotland under the amnesic FM.

[tcjambo]

Just now, tcjambo said:

Loads of confirmation bias on this thread and clearly not watching the woeful state of Scotland under the amnesic FM.

 

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, Byyy The Light said:

thanks 👍🏼

No problem, good on you that you are willing to do your homework. There’s some good stuff here too. 
https://www.businessforscotland.com/

 

MMT Scotland also.  
https://www.eicc.co.uk/whats-on/modern-monetary-theory-organised-by-mmt-scotland/

Edited March 5, 2021 by Pasquale for King
More info

[Pasquale for King]

47 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Geographically it makes sense

 

However most countries are wrapped Geopolitically

 

Surprised the United States are still United. How do you keep the size of that population happy?!

You do know that they’re connected to Canada and South America? Should they have a Union too?

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Why should living on an island mean that you should be one nation?  It might work if everyone buys into the idea that there's one nation on the island, but what if some don't?

Exactly, look at North and South America, technically it’s one land mass. 

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

You do know that they’re connected to Canada and South America? Should they have a Union too?

 

Separate point to the island status

 

Must be some going keeping 50 different states United

 

 

Ps Don't turn in to weakaspiss offender

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

No

 

 

Strangely enough Bayern Munich played this at the end of their game last weekend after a 5:1 win. It was finished in 1902. 

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Separate point to the island status

 

Must be some going keeping 50 different states United

 

 

Ps Don't turn in to weakaspiss offender

Technically an island. As is Ireland, glad to see you agree it should be united 😜. 

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Whereas there is, or certainly should be, when you get tens of thousands of "No" voters singing "Flower of Scotland". Whilst going along with the at least some of the sentiments behind it, I hate that song and really want a new anthem for Scotland, independent or otherwise. Apart from anything else, it can't be played properly on the bagpipes....   

 

Agreed, watching No voters singing it at football or rugby really annoys me. Freedom come all ye is good but like so many other countries have done a new progressive anthem is required. 

[Pasquale for King]

6 hours ago, jonesy said:

Just out of interest, I wonder what the results would be if the electorate of the entire UK were allowed to vote on Scottish independence? Would there be and overwhelming number of Englishmen and women happy to see Scotland gone, or would the majority read from the same script as the BT campaign?

If it was only Scots that voted last time we would be independent, it was the other nationalities that live here that swayed it. That’s democracy. Part of the reason we want independence is to get away from the rest of the U.K. making our decisions for us. Not sure if it would end up with the U.K. being split up or not. 

[Pasquale for King]

6 hours ago, jonesy said:

Indeed. Should another independence referendum actually be requested and granted, I think I'll stick to my Carpenters' Greatest Hits rather than watch/listen to a single second of the cringeworthy campaigning from either side and their respective cheerleaders.

It’s not up to anyone to grant it, if the Scottish people vote for it then it happens. 

[Maroon Sailor]

6 hours ago, jonesy said:

Just out of interest, I wonder what the results would be if the electorate of the entire UK were allowed to vote on Scottish independence?

 

Or a UK vote on whether to maintain the UK or for the 4 nations to go their separate ways.

[Pasquale for King]

5 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Without a referendum Scotland would perpetually be a (very) junior (subservient) party to England...for some reason we are seen as both a drain/pest/undesirable and our representatives in WM are treated with utter disdain and disrespect...Bizarrely (to me) we are, at the same time, too valuable to let go!

 

How do we gain self determination without the vehicle of a referendum?

 

As an aside, do you really want to entrust certain things to a parliament that contains some of the biggest cretins ever elected?

Countries have woken up independent, it happens. We probably will have an advisory referendum as Brexit was if the SNP run on that promise in May. That’s why the unionists are going all out at the present time. The Tories are telling people there WILL be a referendum if the SNP win the election in May. 

[NANOJAMBO]

34 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

No problem, good on you that you are willing to do your homework. There’s some good stuff here too. 
https://www.businessforscotland.com/

 

MMT Scotland also.  
https://www.eicc.co.uk/whats-on/modern-monetary-theory-organised-by-mmt-scotland/

Scotland the Brief is a brilliant read (1st link). 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

They voted overwhelmingly against a northern assembly. I know that’s not English indy but the north didn’t want one. 
I think like anything the English really just tend to get on with it and only brexit recently has awoken some of them. 
I don’t think that many of them would care too much if Scotland left. They think they keep us in my experience. 
I don’t mean any of that to sound derogatory either btw I’ve spent a lot of time down south. England is a brilliant country I love it. 

I've lived down here over 30 years and I'd say , in my experience , Englanders aren't interested/ bothered/don't know anything about the details of the debate/are in the "let them piss off if they're that fed up" camp. The lack of informed debate in 2016 (to me) was startling when compared to the 2014 debate in Scotland.  

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, jonesy said:

UK-wide would certainly be an interesting vote. 

How do you mean? Perhaps granted is the wrong word, but there has to be an agreement between HR and WM for it to happen. 

No agreement at all, we are a sovereign country and if we vote for the SNP, we hold a referendum and win we’re independent by international law. Did the U.K. ask the EU I f they could have an advisory referendum? 
Agreements on assets and debt can be negotiated much like those with the EU, they’ve set all the barometers without actually realising. 

[Pasquale for King]

6 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Scotland the Brief is a brilliant read (1st link). 

It is indeed, I have to admit I’ve let my knowledge get rusty in this last period as I’m a bit jaded politically but will ramp it up again shortly. 

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

The plot thickens...

 

Sounds like fun. Imagine the campaigning! 

It would indeed be crazy, can you imagine if England voted to keep Scotland and get rid of NI for instance 😆. You’re the weakest link, goodbye 😱. 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Geographically it makes sense

 

However most countries are wrapped Geopolitically

 

 

You're not wrong, IMO.  But which comes first?  @Restonbabemakes the argument that you live on an island for not breaking up.  Others make the argument that it's political.  It can't be both.  So if the physical geography argument made by Restonbabe is right, what does that logic mean for the islands of Ireland, Borneo, Hispaniola and New Guinea? 

[Lone Striker]

8 hours ago, sassenach said:

Englishman in peace here....

 

I was never a big fan of the EU.  I was a small child when the UK joined the Common Market, which I think was mainly about trade and not much else to begin with.  As I grew older the ties with Europe became tighter and tighter, politically and legally, and to a degree financially as well.  I was never comfortable with anything beyond just trade. It could be because I might have a "little Englander" mentality, but I could never reconcile myself with being subservient to foreigners who I had no chance to vote out.  I certainly have never felt in the slightest bit European, only English and British (in equal measure).

 

Having said all of this, come the EU referendum I voted remain. The reason was simple - although my heart said leave, my head said that there were no guaranteed advantages to leaving.  It wouldn't  necessarily have made my job any more secure, or put any more money in my pocket, or improved my grandkids' education, or improved my life in any tangible way as far as I could see.  So I voted for the status quo.  I was, though, outvoted, so I respect the decision and we'll see what happens.

 

The relevance of all of this?  I can fully understand how Scots might see themselves as subservient to the English within the UK, just as I felt subservient to the EU. But with head ruling heart, I can't really see how Scotland separating from the UK would improve the overall day-to-day lives of its citizens in any tangible way, just as I couldn't see enough benefits of leaving the EU.

 

Having said all of this, I think Scotland will separate sooner or later. It will only take one Yes vote, be it next time, the time after or whenever.  And the will of the Scottish people should be respected in this matter.  I just can't see how Scotland leaving the UK would be any more logical than the UK leaving the EU.

 

Thats a good post - apart from the bit in bold.   I've never felt subservient to anyone - maybe brought about by a growing cynicism toward all politicians (Holyrood, Westminster and EU).    Why would Scots feel subservient to the English ?  Is it because England has 10 times our population ?   Scotland's contribution to the British Isles and the world over the centuries is substantial for a country of our size - science, business, music, art, philosophy, education, exploration, sport.   (yes, we played our part in the evil stuff too)   I just don't get that statement you made, sorry.

 

I do agree with your other points though.   I voted remain too, largely because I didn't feel strongly enough that the disruption which would ensue from  leaving the EU was worth the "gain" which Vote Leave were claiming.   In a way, Scotland leaving the UK might seem to come down to a similar judgement for many people.   

 

Just my opinion, but the EU "leave" proposition was  driven by power-hungry forces  .... and that will likely be the case in an Indyref too.   After which (if Yes wins), lots of institutions and businesses  in Scotland & the other 3 UK nations will want to continue to collaborate,  work on shared projects, employ people from across the British Isles and abroad.   People will still want to travel for work and visit family,  and take holidays throughout these Isles.   Having just separated,   the Governments will have to agree how to make these things continue as simply as  possible.   

 

Just like NI and the RoI do (even before the Brexit fudge) - hopefully we won't have the prior bloodshed  though !! 

 

The main winners will be politicians at Holyrood who will inherit more power - maybe they'll manage to create a fairer and more prosperous society in Scotland, but even that's  open to question based on the last 20 years of significant devolved power where  changes for the better have been slow to happen.    After Indy, the  2 governments  can spend years arguing about Faslane and the amount of UK debt which Scotland will inherit.  

 

Leaving the union you're in for some glorious woolly utopia outside  (where you then form new trading unions) seems like just shuffling your cards and hoping you end up with a better hand than the last one.  Its a political game which for some reason polarises  lots of ordinary people  even more than supporting rival football teams.

 

 But hey-ho .... que sera sera.

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

15 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'm not clued up enough about constitutional and legal matters to discuss this much further, but if this were the case, why did Salmon go down the route of the Edinburgh Agreement in 2012? 

 

 

Not entirely sure but probably because Yes was sitting at 25%. 

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Losers get automatic entry into the next round of EU qualifiers where they will play off with Turkey and Ukraine.

Hahahahaha. Or Azerbaijan one of the host countries in Euro 2020 in 2021 🤔🤷🏾‍♂️🙈?!?!

[jack D and coke]

This thread seems a dafty free zone so far😐

[gjcc]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

This thread seems a dafty free zone so far😐

Yes. So far.  

[Ulysses]

35 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'd suggest the local context (history, mainly, but also the geography, cultures, colonial legacies, language(s)) varies so much from island to island that it makes it impossible to compare the situations.

 

 

I wouldn't disagree with that.  And once you accept that, it's difficult to see the merit in an argument for staying unified because we all live on one island.  Plenty of people do just that, but others don't, and it is local context that matters. 

[JackLadd]

It was only 6 and a bit years ago that the nationalists were all behind Salmond as the man to lead the nation in some ill defined independence from England retaining EU membership (without any Brussels agreement) and (laughably) the pound with income streams based on wildly optimistic crude oil estimates and the added taxation of 1m low wage migrants (more SNP nonsense). None of you have any idea what they are selling now, and frankly neither do the SNP and the now tainted (and at war with Salmond) Nicola Sturgeon. They of course remain ideologically driven for Independence at any cost, which was also the case in 2014 although then they had a mandate for a referendum from the UK government and even concessions from Cameron on the question itself and school age voters. They have been told there is no chance of this being tolerated again so soon. Any break up of Britain with an England out of the EU would hurt England but would be catastrophic for Scotland. I do not want to have to change currency every time I cross the river Tweed and go through a customs border. The mere notion should be absurd to any sane Scot. Nor do I  want to see the value of my property nosedive or see elderly Scots put through the ringer. Why? There is absolutely no chance the SNP can sustain public spending on the current 10% budget deficit. This is why they have produced ZERO evidence of how Scotland will pay and sustain itself despite their sabre rattling. In 2014 it was 'wull grow the ecoanamy' with 1m migrants. What is it now with no pound, North Sea oil dead and an England outside the EU. The SNP don't do data, facts and reality. They do dogma and lies. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by JackLadd

[jack D and coke]

16 minutes ago, gjcc said:

Yes. So far.  

 for how long though. It’s a subject I like discussing. Been some good stuff so far. I like @sassenachposts too. I’m always interested in what English people think. 
Disturbs me when it get ls framed as anti English. There are dingles that think that way but it’s never been for me. 
I loathe those pricks. 

[jack D and coke]

Christ I spoke too soon...

 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said:

I've lived down here over 30 years and I'd say , in my experience , Englanders aren't interested/ bothered/don't know anything about the details of the debate/are in the "let them piss off if they're that fed up" camp. The lack of informed debate in 2016 (to me) was startling when compared to the 2014 debate in Scotland.  

Scotland to some of them seems like a distant mythical land it’s quite funny sometimes. Further south you go that is. 
Pretty much always got treated with the best of order though I’d have to say. I’d be mortified if English people didn’t receive the same 

[Pasquale for King]

10 hours ago, CF11JamTart said:

 

Talking about independence is different from wanting it.

 

At present,  there is one vocally pro-independence party in Wales. That's Plaid Cymru. And even then, they aren't THAT vociferous. 

 

As the article says, if pro-independence parties get a majority in the Senedd, that should be mandate for an independence referendum. 

 

At present,  that would require a big swing in Plaid's fortunes. Or Drakeford to dramatically change Welsh Labour's posture. 

 

One way or the other,  the Union is finished in its present form.  Wales needs to work out where it wants to be and a stop navel-gazing.

I think he might want it now. 

[jack D and coke]

10 minutes ago, Barack said:

My brother, who lives in Nottinghamshire, married to an English woman, with a child born in England, with an English father...would really be interested in this thread. 

 

Good job he's not on JKB. I'd rip him to pieces in fairness.

Surely a Jambo your brother?? 
Used to be best mates with a lad in Carlton. Spent loads of time in Nottingham. 
East Midlands as a whole tbh. Basically lived in Loughborough for a year.
Great place. 

[Pasquale for King]

24 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

It was only 6 and a bit years ago that the nationalists were all behind Salmond as the man to lead the nation in some ill defined independence from England retaining EU membership (without any Brussels agreement) and (laughably) the pound with income streams based on wildly optimistic crude oil estimates and the added taxation of 1m low wage migrants (more SNP nonsense). None of you have any idea what they are selling now, and frankly neither do the SNP and the now tainted (and at war with Salmond) Nicola Sturgeon. They of course remain ideologically driven for Independence at any cost, which was also the case in 2014 although then they had a mandate for a referendum from the UK government and even concessions from Cameron on the question itself and school age voters. They have been told there is no chance of this being tolerated again so soon. Any break up of Britain with an England out of the EU would hurt England but would be catastrophic for Scotland. I do not want to have to change currency every time I cross the river Tweed and go through a customs border. The mere notion should be absurd to any sane Scot. Nor do I  want to see the value of my property nosedive or see elderly Scots put through the ringer. Why? There is absolutely no chance the SNP can sustain public spending on the current 10% budget deficit. This is why they have produced ZERO evidence of how Scotland will pay and sustain itself despite their sabre rattling. In 2014 it was 'wull grow the ecoanamy' with 1m migrants. What is it now with no pound, North Sea oil dead and an England outside the EU. The SNP don't do data, facts and reality. They do dogma and lies. 

Ok where to start.

No mandate was given from the UK government. There was an agreement that isn’t required for Scotland to have a referendum. See the EU referendum for proof. 
Try and use your Scottish money just now when you cross the tweed and go 100 miles south. 
No border will exist, see Ireland. 
There is no budget deficit, it’s a myth discredited from an incomplete set of figures. If there is in the future we will borrow money as any normal country does. 
Pensioners have been guaranteed by the U.K. government to get the pensions they’ve paid into. The worst pension in Europe at the moment. 
The new investment bank will lead the way by funding progressive industries, like decommissioning oil rigs as we move away from fossil fuels, using the plentiful resources we have. 
If you think the current Westminster government do data, facts and reality whilst not lying (BJ proved to be lying to HoC yesterday) then I’m afraid it’s your sanity that needs looking into. 
 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Barack said:

Of course he is. 😉

 

The anti-English stuff is quite weird sometimes. There's banter between pals/workmates. And casual racist behaviour. He's never had the latter. Or my Dad up in Scotland. Bar a loudmouth drunk prick in the local hotel bar...coincidentally around the Indy vote. (Soon shut up by myself & the landlord.) He's lived more of his adult life in Scotland, than Nottingham. Or myself here in Wales either.

 

I genuinely don't think I've been offended by "Jock" or "sweaty sock"...or whatever in my life. I've worked with hundreds of different nationalities here & abroad. 

 

Yoof & m'duck, ingrained into my psyche.

 

 

Awlright m’duck is something I miss now tbh  worked with a few nottingham and Leicester lads for years doing the shopfitting all over the place. Great lads! U.K. and Europe but doesn’t matter. Geordies, mancs, brummys, cockneys (I ****ing love cockneys) funniest people alive the real ones ☺️

[jack D and coke]

28 minutes ago, Barack said:

Of course he is. 😉

 

The anti-English stuff is quite weird sometimes. There's banter between pals/workmates. And casual racist behaviour. He's never had the latter. Or my Dad up in Scotland. Bar a loudmouth drunk prick in the local hotel bar...coincidentally around the Indy vote. (Soon shut up by myself & the landlord.) He's lived more of his adult life in Scotland, than Nottingham. Or myself here in Wales either.

 

I genuinely don't think I've been offended by "Jock" or "sweaty sock"...or whatever in my life. I've worked with hundreds of different nationalities here & abroad. 

 

Yoof & m'duck, ingrained into my psyche.

 

 

Sorry is your dad English? He got abuse up here?

Edited March 6, 2021 by jack D and coke

[Governor Tarkin]

3 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

I’m a bit jaded politically but will ramp it up again shortly. 

 

Please don't. 😭

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Please don't. 😭

Not on here, I wouldn’t want another months “sabbatical” 😆. 

[Maroon Sailor]

6 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

 for how long though. It’s a subject I like discussing. Been some good stuff so far. I like @sassenachposts too. I’m always interested in what English people think. 
Disturbs me when it get ls framed as anti English. There are dingles that think that way but it’s never been for me. 
I loathe those pricks. 

 

This is why it would be interesting imo to have a UK vote on the Union to either keep all 4 nations together or split the 4 nations - no in between.

 

All in or All out

 

 

[A Boy Named Crow]

4 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

This is why it would be interesting imo to have a UK vote on the Union to either keep all 4 nations together or split the 4 nations - no in between.

 

All in or All out

 

 

Interesting? Maybe.

 

A good idea? Absolutely not.

 

How would this vote work? Would it be like the Brexit referendum,  so England would basically decide for everybody?

[Maroon Sailor]

10 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Interesting? Maybe.

 

A good idea? Absolutely not.

 

How would this vote work? Would it be like the Brexit referendum,  so England would basically decide for everybody?

 

Just a vote to gauge how everyone feels about the Union not to decide the future of it and unlike the Brexit vote the results from each of the 4 nations are not broken down.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Maroon Sailor

[Justin Z]

16 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Just a vote to gauge how everyone feels about the Union not to decide the future of it and unlike the Brexit vote the results from each of the 4 nations are not broken down.

 

Why?

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

This is why it would be interesting imo to have a UK vote on the Union to either keep all 4 nations together or split the 4 nations - no in between.

 

All in or All out

 

 

But England vote would liikely dominate. The whole probelm. 

[Jeffros Furios]

We should invade England .

[Maroon Sailor]

7 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

We should invade England .

 

Again ?

 

Hopefully this year

 

 

 

[Jeffros Furios]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Again ?

 

Hopefully this year

 

 

 

I'm up for that 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

But England vote would liikely dominate. The whole probelm. 

 

thats not a problem and pre-supposes the way the “England vote” would go

 

want a vote on the union why not ask the folk in the union - seems fair 

[A Boy Named Crow]

9 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

thats not a problem and pre-supposes the way the “England vote” would go

 

want a vote on the union why not ask the folk in the union - seems fair 

It presupposes nothing. The population of England is such that continue or disband, the decision would be made by England. 

 

It'd solve nothing!

[XB52]

10 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

thats not a problem and pre-supposes the way the “England vote” would go

 

want a vote on the union why not ask the folk in the union - seems fair 

Exactly. Ask Scotland if they want to remain in the union. Ask England if they want to remain, and Wales and NI too. Unfortunately for the unionists it would be one country votes to leave, they leave. Is this how desperate the unionists have become that they have finally realised that Scotland wants to leave so they want to change the rules

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

It presupposes nothing. The population of England is such that continue or disband, the decision would be made by England. 

 

It'd solve nothing!

 

Absolutely nothing, but @Maroon Sailor has this weird idea apparently that it's boring to back up your opinions, and not boring to fling dimwitted shit at the wall and point at it, so here we are, discussing this utterly tedious idea.