Is the UK finished?

[Norm]

Scottish independence still sitting at over 50% Yes in the polls, Northern Ireland sitting at 42% and, most surprisingly, Wales now sitting at over 40% when it traditionally polled at the 10% level. 

 

Is the break up inevitable? What can Westminster do to make staying in the union more attractive? 

[Horatio Caine]

1 minute ago, Norm said:

Scottish independence still sitting at over 50% Yes in the polls, Northern Ireland sitting at 42% and, most surprisingly, Wales now sitting at over 40% when it traditionally polled at the 10% level. 

 

Is the break up inevitable? What can Westminster do to make staying in the union more attractive? 

Getting rid of Boris, Gove, Rees-Mogg et al would be a good start.

[Byyy The Light]

I don't think so.  There are a hell of a lot of fence sitters (like myself) who when it comes to the crunch will stick with what they know rather than take the risk.

 

Federalism may be something worth considering that would suit more people.

[jamboj]

Westminster is an affront to democracy and good sense. The electoral system, and particularly the house of lords, are a disgrace in the modern world. The fact that this stuff doesn't even get mentioned by those 'born to rule pony ******s' says everything you need to know about them. I hope the UK is finished, truly I do 

[Cruyff]

Yep, it's ****ed. Brexit was the final straw I think. 

[Justin Z]

24 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

I don't think so.  There are a hell of a lot of fence sitters (like myself) who when it comes to the crunch will stick with what they know rather than take the risk.

 

Federalism may be something worth considering that would suit more people.

 

I think this is fair. But if anything, the current government are hostile to your idea. Folks within devolved administrations who work with the UK government have reported that they're being brushed off or outright ignored like never before, even on day-to-day administrative business vital to keep everything else running. We've seen the open attacks on Scottish (and to some extent Welsh) devolution in the past few months ramping up from what the UK Government already did for years throughout the Brexit process (treating devolved matters with unconstitutional contempt).

 

And I do hope you ask yourself the question—given what Scotland has already lost out on by not being independent for the last half century (see the trillion dollar Norwegian sovereign oil fund)—is it worth the risk of looking back again some years from now and finding that Scotland has lost out on the next big thing too?

[The Gorgie]

As a Unionist yes, i do think it's only a matter of time now.

[Byyy The Light]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I think this is fair. But if anything, the current government are hostile to your idea. Folks within devolved administrations who work with the UK government have reported that they're being brushed off or outright ignored like never before, even on day-to-day administrative business vital to keep everything else running. We've seen the open attacks on Scottish (and to some extent Welsh) devolution in the past few months ramping up from what the UK Government already did for years throughout the Brexit process (treating devolved matters with unconstitutional contempt).

 

And I do hope you ask yourself the question—given what Scotland has already lost out on by not being independent for the last half century (see the trillion dollar Norwegian sovereign oil fund)—is it worth the risk of looking back again some years from now and finding that Scotland has lost out on the next big thing too?

 

I think its idealistic, look how Westminster handled the Brexit negotiations. They thought they would just swanny in and tell them whats happening and everyone would walk away happy and it would be sunshine and rainbows.

 

It would get very messy very quickly and there would be a considerable amount of pain for who knows how long.  I run my own business and 100% of my clients are based south of the border.  What happens to me and my family?  I would love Scotland to be independent but the realities of what that looks like for me in real terms isn't a trivial thing.  The independence movement needs to put forward a convincing case for people like me that shows it will be for the best and not just tell us that everything will be great cos we're aw Jock Tamson's bairns.

[redjambo]

24 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Yep, it's ****ed. Brexit was the final straw I think. 

 

It was for me, anyway. It turned Unionist me (although I never called myself that, I just enjoyed being Scottish, British and a EU citizen, the best of three worlds) into a Nationalist. Now, independence can't come quickly enough.

[Cruyff]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

It was for me, anyway. It turned Unionist me (although I never called myself that, I just enjoyed being Scottish, British and a EU citizen, the best of three worlds) into a Nationalist. Now, independence can't come quickly enough.

A feeling which many in Scotland now seem to share. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Cruyff

[lou]

I don't think I have ever considered myself to be British, I have never felt any affinity to the union at all

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

I think its idealistic, look how Westminster handled the Brexit negotiations. They thought they would just swanny in and tell them whats happening and everyone would walk away happy and it would be sunshine and rainbows.

 

Obviously any major change like this needs to be handled with a lot of sense and a lot of caution. For me, thanks to Brexit we now have a bespoke roadmap of what exactly not to do—before, during, or after.

 

4 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

It would get very messy very quickly and there would be a considerable amount of pain for who knows how long.  I run my own business and 100% of my clients are based south of the border.  What happens to me and my family?  I would love Scotland to be independent but the realities of what that looks like for me in real terms isn't a trivial thing.  The independence movement needs to put forward a convincing case for people like me that shows it will be for the best and not just tell us that everything will be great cos we're aw Jock Tamson's bairns.

 

With the roadmap of Brexit I think we've learned a lot about how to make the process as painless as possible—that's not to say there'd be no pain at all. It's very fair for you to have concerns like these, and it's testament to your willingness to listen and be open-minded that even with all that on the line, you'd still be open to the possibility of independence.

 

To the point in bold, I couldn't agree more, but I also think that en masse, the psychological shift has begun: for a critical mass of folk, the framing has reversed—it's now a question of what else Scotland has to lose by staying in the Union.

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

I think its idealistic, look how Westminster handled the Brexit negotiations. They thought they would just swanny in and tell them whats happening and everyone would walk away happy and it would be sunshine and rainbows.

 

It would get very messy very quickly and there would be a considerable amount of pain for who knows how long.  I run my own business and 100% of my clients are based south of the border.  What happens to me and my family?  I would love Scotland to be independent but the realities of what that looks like for me in real terms isn't a trivial thing.  The independence movement needs to put forward a convincing case for people like me that shows it will be for the best and not just tell us that everything will be great cos we're aw Jock Tamson's bairns.

 

Can't see Wales ever voting for Independence. Not sure if Northern Ireland will ever break away from the UK

 

These polls express a desire for change to the UK model imo rather than a desire to end the UK.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, lou said:

I don't think I have ever considered myself to be British, I have never felt any affinity to the union at all

 

That's a strange one too. "British" is a term that meant something else for much of its existence—during the Tudor period it referred to the Welsh and Cornish collectively, for example. In other times it more or less meant anything not Anglo-Saxon, basically the opposite of the idea now.

 

Post-WWII it was refashioned, for purposes of assimilation and political expediency, into the basis for a unified, British nationalism in the face of a declining empire.

[H2]

1 hour ago, Norm said:

Scottish independence still sitting at over 50% Yes in the polls, Northern Ireland sitting at 42% and, most surprisingly, Wales now sitting at over 40% when it traditionally polled at the 10% level. 

 

Is the break up inevitable? What can Westminster do to make staying in the union more attractive? 

Problem is that it's not about reality. It's all about media and selling and you buy who presents the best. Don't worry about the consequence, nobody talks about that.

[Justin Z]

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Can't see Wales ever voting for Independence. Not sure if Northern Ireland will ever break away from the UK

 

These polls express a desire for change to the UK model imo rather than a desire to end the UK.

 

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

 

Justin ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[JackLadd]

Scotland will be finished if it chooses the snp and Brussels over its own island. 100%.

[Justin Z]

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

Justin ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

Your opinion that the polls express one type of desire and not another is all well and good, but if you can't back up that opinion with ideas as to why you feel that way, it's worth less than the pixels on the screen.

 

It can be "los dos", and since the literal question being asked in them is about independence, not a "different model", independence is the starting point. It's on you to support why you think the way you do.

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

Your opinion that the polls express one type of desire and not another is all well and good, but if you can't back up that opinion with ideas as to why you feel that way, it's worth less than the pixels on the screen.

 

It can be "los dos", and since the literal question being asked in them is about independence, not a "different model", independence is the starting point. It's on you to support why you think the way you do.

 

Your opinion bores me mate

 

As do your boring posts

 

Hence why I don't bother with you

 

You are boring

 

Now go and bore someone else

[Justin Z]

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

Your opinion bores me mate

 

As do your boring posts

 

Hence why I don't bother with you

 

You are boring

 

Now go and bore someone else

 

So basically, you want to believe in your fee fees that the polls that ask a question about independence, aren't about independence. And folk who at least try to use their brains to inform their opinions bore you.

 

Got it. Ignore button is right over there, pal.

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

So basically, you want to believe in your fee fees that the polls that ask a question about independence, aren't about independence. And folk who at least try to use their brains to inform their opinions bore you.

 

Got it. Ignore button is right over there, pal.

 

DID NOT READ

 

BORING

 

 

[OTT]

1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

Scotland will be finished if it chooses the snp and Brussels over its own island. 100%.

 

Just like Ireland eh.  

 

Federalism keeps rearing its head anytime Independence is discussed. When you look at the Tories I think a lot suffer from English exceptionalism. Their attitude to negotiations with the EU suggests this attitude is pretty rampant, that despite being the ones to leave that they can dictate terms to the EU with zero scope for compromising. So, Federalism will not ever happen because that is incumbent on English Tories giving up power and the supermajority England has by virtue of its population, which will never, ever happen. 

 

Its a fools dream with the sole intention of creating doubt in the soft yes camp. 

[Justin Z]

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

DID NOT READ

 

BORING

You know what's actually boring, mate? People who vomit baseless opinions onto forums because they believe what they think automatically matters, and they don't have to defend them.

Happy to help.

[Ray Gin]

100% Niemied.

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

40 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Your opinion bores me mate

 

As do your boring posts

 

Hence why I don't bother with you

 

You are boring

 

Now go and bore someone else

 

C'mon MS tell how you really feel. Stop sitting on the fence. 

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

C'mon MS tell how you really feel. Stop sitting on the fence. 

 

Well he always posts facts and figures he finds on the internet that suits his thought process and it bores the shit out of me 🤣

[Pans Jambo]

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, Pans Jambo said:

 

If only it was the end of you dull, repetitive, boring and ignorant posts. Unfortunately I'm sure after a couple of buckfasts you'll be back barking at the moon again. 

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

If only it was the end of you dull, repetitive, boring and ignorant posts. Unfortunately I'm sure after a couple of buckfasts you'll be back barking at the moon again. 

Who kicked your kennel?

Enlighten me with your unique, exciting and thought provoking posts then.

Phannie!

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Who kicked your kennel?

Enlighten me with your unique, exciting and thought provoking posts then.

Phannie!

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

 

See, this is what I hoped, all those years ago, that the Scottish Parliament would actually sound like on a daily basis.

 🤷‍♂️

[Nucky Thompson]

I think the case for the Union will have taken a huge boost with the excellent vaccine roll out.

You then have to look at the EU and the total feck up they have made of it 

[Cade]

The UK has had plenty of chances to reform into a federal, modern, progressive democracy.

 

It instead prefers to remain a medieval feudal state with a democratic facade.

 

It's fecked.

[John Findlay]

I'm a Scot first, a Brit second.

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I'm a Scot first, a Brit second.

 

Happy to be both ?

[John Findlay]

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Happy to be both ?

More happy to be a Scot. Been treated far better as a Scot than a Brit in my life experience.

[Justin Z]

27 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Well he always posts facts and figures

 

I can see why this might bore a fantasist tbf

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

More happy to be a Scot. Been treated far better as a Scot than a Brit in my life experience.

 

I've never experienced that but I've taken some abuse just for being Scottish on the odd occasion down South. By South I mean South of England.

[Jeff]

I know a fair few Northern English people who wished they could join us

[Norm]

What I find curious is the sudden surge in Wales. Its difficult to pin Brexit on that when the majority voted Leave in Wales. I don't think I would ever have expected Welsh independence to be as popular as 40%.

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Norm said:

Scottish independence still sitting at over 50% Yes in the polls, Northern Ireland sitting at 42% and, most surprisingly, Wales now sitting at over 40% when it traditionally polled at the 10% level. 

 

Is the break up inevitable? What can Westminster do to make staying in the union more attractive? 

What's England sitting at? 

[Cruyff]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I know a fair few Northern English people who wished they could join us

Happy to have them. They should give us the North of England, they treat them with more contempt than they treat us. 

[ri Alban]

32 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I think the case for the Union will have taken a huge boost with the excellent vaccine roll out.

You then have to look at the EU and the total feck up they have made of it 

Fecking Hell, the vaccine brough back the 130,000 deid folk. Amazing! 

[luckydug]

25 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I'm a Scot first, a Brit second.

I'm a Scot first and a Brit only because I have no choice. 

[Justin Z]

35 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I think the case for the Union will have taken a huge boost with the excellent vaccine roll out.

You then have to look at the EU and the total feck up they have made of it 

 

Images of barn doors slamming shut months after the horses have bolted still come to mind.

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Norm said:

Scottish independence still sitting at over 50% Yes in the polls, Northern Ireland sitting at 42% and, most surprisingly, Wales now sitting at over 40% when it traditionally polled at the 10% level. 

 

Is the break up inevitable? What can Westminster do to make staying in the union more attractive? 

They don't really need to. Look at the ageing population : they're doing fine and they don't like change, so why change it. Ultimately I think that's why indy will fail again and continue to fail until the current aged population dies out.  Ireland ? - same thing. Wales - I can't see them ever quitting. I know quite a few Welsh folk /had a few Welsh colleagues over the years and have never heard a single one of them talk about leaving. Wales is a very divided country in my experience - it can be pretty nasty & bitter in the north but much less so in the south. 

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Barack said:

I think what he's getting at, is had Scotland been in the EU, then the utter **** up Brussels has made of their rollout, dragging NI into it too...would have Scotland lagging well behind in the stakes. That would affect millions.

 

As it is we're right up there. There are plenty of things to talk about in the fullness of time, regards original responses, deaths, etc. But one thing where the UK Government should get credit for I agree, is the vaccine response and roll-out. Which is making Europe look ridiculous and helping to open our borders and economy about 2 months ahead of schedule. At this rate.

I don't disagree. But on the other hand, the UK could have fecked right up if the experiment of the vaccine had gone tits up. 

 

[John Findlay]

23 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

I've never experienced that but I've taken some abuse just for being Scottish on the odd occasion down South. By South I mean South of England.

I lived there(Hampshire) for 26 years 1979-2005. My father in law was quizzed as to why he was letting his daughter marry a Jock.

[NANOJAMBO]

3 minutes ago, Barack said:

I think what he's getting at, is had Scotland been in the EU, then the utter **** up Brussels has made of their rollout, dragging NI into it too...would have Scotland lagging well behind in the stakes. That would affect millions.

 

As it is we're right up there. There are plenty of things to talk about in the fullness of time, regards original responses, deaths, etc. But one thing where the UK Government should get credit for I agree, is the vaccine response and roll-out. Which is making Europe look ridiculous and helping to open our borders and economy about 2 months ahead of schedule. At this rate.

That's pure speculation - and anyway, any EU country could have done what the UK did and go their own way. Boris tried to paint a picture of brexit enabling/freeing  the UK to go its own way on vaccines - it was  a pack of lies. He didn't need brexit  to do it because the power was always there for the UK to go its own way. All he had to do was  pay double the price for it.