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Is the UK finished?


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Pasquale for King
1 minute ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

I agree.  I would still like someone to run with it as an alternative to Independence and the SNP CyberNat Unionist bickering bullshit that rears its head.  It's near on impossible to have a decent discussion about the whole thing (anything these days!) Everyone is so entrenched, including the mainstream media.

 

I know it would never be on the ballot paper but I would at least like some of the polling to reflect it to encourage discussion.  I admit I don't know enough about how something like federalism would work but as a concept it seems to tick a lot of boxes.  

 

 

People won’t fault for that again, Gordon Brown tried that last time and nothing happened. In fact Cameron weakened Scotland’s influence with his EVEL proposals at 7am on 19/9/14. That ship has sailed. 

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Pasquale for King
2 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Great post Barack. 

 

This has been an interesting thread, bar a few posts, and would be good to read the views of more folk not deep in the politics threads on here. In fact, and I know folk might find this impossible, but be interesting to hear this discussed with less slant on specific politics. 

 

For example, one thing I'd relish in an independent Scotland is feeling like I could vote for a variety of parties and their actually being a chance of them being in Government.

 

I resent the SNP trying to own independence in the same way other other folk rightly resent them trying to own being Scottish. 

Agreed. Post independence will see party’s reorganised and change. It would be weird for the Torys/Labour/Lib Dems to have the same names, they don’t in Ireland for example. The best way to get rid of the SNP is to achieve independence, their factions will split off and the majority of members that see them as the vehicle for independence would leave. 

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The Hogfather

Personally I don't see it. I understand the desire after the last few years of the Tories and their disgraceful behaviour but it's still down to the pro-Indy parties to put together a credible case for it. Someone mentioned self-preservation and it's a good point. I'm open to both sides of the argument but I certainly wouldn't vote for something that would make me worse off.

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Byyy The Light
14 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

People won’t fault for that again, Gordon Brown tried that last time and nothing happened. In fact Cameron weakened Scotland’s influence with his EVEL proposals at 7am on 19/9/14. That ship has sailed. 

 

With regards to currency and central banking (I read a lot about it all last time round but it's hazy now) we would potentially join the Euro (rejoining the EU, who knows) would we then be tethering ourselves to the European Central Bank so essentially at the mercy of Germany, France etc.  Which is potentially a worse situation than we have at the moment in a union with Westminster?

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Brighton Jambo
16 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Great post Barack. 

 

This has been an interesting thread, bar a few posts, and would be good to read the views of more folk not deep in the politics threads on here. In fact, and I know folk might find this impossible, but be interesting to hear this discussed with less slant on specific politics. 

 

For example, one thing I'd relish in an independent Scotland is feeling like I could vote for a variety of parties and their actually being a chance of them being in Government.

 

I resent the SNP trying to own independence in the same way other other folk rightly resent them trying to own being Scottish. 

It’s an interesting point about getting the government you vote for.  I have never voted SNP and they have been in power for 14 years.  It’s how democracy works.

 

If all of Scotland voted for the Labour Party as they used to then all bar the last general election they would have been the government of the UK.  If you chose to vote for a party in the SNP that can never form the UK government then you can’t really complain you aren’t getting what you want in the Tories.  

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5 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I think the case for the Union will have taken a huge boost with the excellent vaccine roll out.

You then have to look at the EU and the total feck up they have made of it :lol:

England has the highest covid death rate in the world so I can't see anything to do with covid helping the case for the union. The UK is finished thankfully, just a matter of time. My only small worry is that the English will vote for their independence before we do but the end result is the same 

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Maroon Sailor
2 minutes ago, XB52 said:

England has the highest covid death rate in the world so I can't see anything to do with covid helping the case for the union. The UK is finished thankfully, just a matter of time. My only small worry is that the English will vote for their independence before we do but the end result is the same 

 

When will England get their vote for their independence?

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22 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Agreed. Post independence will see party’s reorganised and change. It would be weird for the Torys/Labour/Lib Dems to have the same names, they don’t in Ireland for example. The best way to get rid of the SNP is to achieve independence, their factions will split off and the majority of members that see them as the vehicle for independence would leave. 

Agree. When I worked at the brewery one of my pals was a huge labour man and was full of the old "snp are tartan tories". Always told him if he wanted a real labour government then he had to vote for the snp. After independence pretty sure we will end up with a true labour party in power

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13 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

With regards to currency and central banking (I read a lot about it all last time round but it's hazy now) we would potentially join the Euro (rejoining the EU, who knows) would we then be tethering ourselves to the European Central Bank so essentially at the mercy of Germany, France etc.  Which is potentially a worse situation than we have at the moment in a union with Westminster?

We will not be using the Euro, certainly not for many years if ever. As has been stated numerous times, we will use the pound to start with. Then we will move to a Scottish currency. How soon we move to that will be down to the government in power to decide.

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9 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

When will England get their vote for their independence?

That's up to the English 

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1 hour ago, sassenach said:

We don't like owt or anyone that's not from Yorkshire. Including London, but they're nowt special 😀

 

Now I have to say, that in my admittedly limited experience, Yorkshiremen couldn't be any more unlike this :biggrin2: Met some Sheffield Wednesday supporters on a stag do in Platform 5 one night—just so happens the pal I was with also supports the Owls—and we had a great time watching the Friday night game with them, I think they drew 1-1 against Leeds.

 

Their plan was to visit Tynecastle the following day to see former Owl ledge Steven MacLean on the pitch once again.

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41 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yeah because the borders, currency and the economy aren’t a concern just now in this wonderful union 😆
Border will not be any different from what’s in Ireland. Currency will be just as strong as the pound to begin with. The economy will prosper as industries that help our plentiful resources flourish with investment. 
My advice to anyone who thinks Scotland and it’s people won’t be better off and more democratic is to go and do your homework, nobody who does questions independence. 

Question. 

Do you realise we all live collectively on an island. 

One massive island. We all have the same opportunitys. There is only geographical differences between North Britian and south Britian. It wouldn't matter if the parliament was in Manchester or Edinburgh. For some reason people want to complain that its shite being Scottish. 

 

There is no difference being Scottish, English or Welsh. Same crap weather, values and ideas. 

What exactly are you breaking up?? 

 

The armed forces would remain. 

National rail 

Royal mail

Electricity, gas, Internet 

Water 

Airlines

Nothing would drastically change from what we have now. 

 

The worst thing that happened was Scotland got its parliament back. 

 

Honestly nats are like spoiled brats. We want this, we want that. 

Perhaps perfect what you have got before wanting to do more. 

 

Scotland in the past decade has went back. All under an nationalist government. 

 

The education currículum is the worst yet. 

Abject poverty in parts of scotland is on par with 3rd World countries. 

Drugs and suicide are at an all time high in towns and cities across the land. 

Infrastructure in Scotland is shocking. 

Look at the state of the roads. 

Government still owns Prestwick 

Bifab shipyards

Salmondgate

 

The snp are the problem not some scoucer grafting making a living 

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scott herbertson
31 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

With regards to currency and central banking (I read a lot about it all last time round but it's hazy now) we would potentially join the Euro (rejoining the EU, who knows) would we then be tethering ourselves to the European Central Bank so essentially at the mercy of Germany, France etc.  Which is potentially a worse situation than we have at the moment in a union with Westminster?

 

 

I see this kind of argument a lot - horror at being linked to the euro in some way.

 

Why would that be worse then being in the Pound?

 

"At the mercy of.."     sounds as if they are going to torture us with their currency  - I don't see the Irish or Danish or Portuguese 'hurting' for being part of it?

 

This gets trotted out very simply like it is a great reason for not joining but Id be genuinely interested to know why people think it would be so terrible?

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Auld Reekin'
1 minute ago, Restonbabe said:

Question. 

Do you realise we all live collectively on an island. 

One massive island. We all have the same opportunitys. There is only geographical differences between North Britian and south Britian. It wouldn't matter if the parliament was in Manchester or Edinburgh. For some reason people want to complain that its shite being Scottish. 

 

There is no difference being Scottish, English or Welsh. Same crap weather, values and ideas. 

What exactly are you breaking up?? 

 

The armed forces would remain. 

National rail 

Royal mail

Electricity, gas, Internet 

Water 

Airlines

Nothing would drastically change from what we have now. 

 

The worst thing that happened was Scotland got its parliament back. 

 

Honestly nats are like spoiled brats. We want this, we want that. 

Perhaps perfect what you have got before wanting to do more. 

 

Scotland in the past decade has went back. All under an nationalist government. 

 

The education currículum is the worst yet. 

Abject poverty in parts of scotland is on par with 3rd World countries. 

Drugs and suicide are at an all time high in towns and cities across the land. 

Infrastructure in Scotland is shocking. 

Look at the state of the roads. 

Government still owns Prestwick 

Bifab shipyards

Salmondgate

 

The snp are the problem not some scoucer grafting making a living 

 

:jj_facepalm:

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7 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

Question. 

Do you realise we all live collectively on an island. 

One massive island. We all have the same opportunitys. There is only geographical differences between North Britian and south Britian. It wouldn't matter if the parliament was in Manchester or Edinburgh. For some reason people want to complain that its shite being Scottish. 

 

There is no difference being Scottish, English or Welsh. Same crap weather, values and ideas. 

What exactly are you breaking up?? 

 

The armed forces would remain. 

National rail 

Royal mail

Electricity, gas, Internet 

Water 

Airlines

Nothing would drastically change from what we have now. 

 

The worst thing that happened was Scotland got its parliament back. 

 

Honestly nats are like spoiled brats. We want this, we want that. 

Perhaps perfect what you have got before wanting to do more. 

 

Scotland in the past decade has went back. All under an nationalist government. 

 

The education currículum is the worst yet. 

Abject poverty in parts of scotland is on par with 3rd World countries. 

Drugs and suicide are at an all time high in towns and cities across the land. 

Infrastructure in Scotland is shocking. 

Look at the state of the roads. 

Government still owns Prestwick 

Bifab shipyards

Salmondgate

 

The snp are the problem not some scoucer grafting making a living 

 

n725075089_288918_2774.jpg

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Pasquale for King
42 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

With regards to currency and central banking (I read a lot about it all last time round but it's hazy now) we would potentially join the Euro (rejoining the EU, who knows) would we then be tethering ourselves to the European Central Bank so essentially at the mercy of Germany, France etc.  Which is potentially a worse situation than we have at the moment in a union with Westminster?

We can’t join the Euro right away, nobody wants to anyway. Poland joined in 2005 still use the Zloty. We start our own CB, it’s as easy as sitting someone at a desk and staring from there. It’s all been researched and is in place ready to decide on. https://commonweal.scot/library/how-to-launch-a-scottish-currency/


 

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5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I think @Restonbabe's post, being heart on sleeve-style passionate, deserved a better response than that, gentlemen. This thread's been good so far, don't let it slide.

 

I appreciate that @jonesy, thanks. But I don't even know where to start with that word salad. I'm not even on the lash yet and I just... :lol:

 

Edit: (added your edit, jonesy) Heart-on-sleeve-style or not, which is all well and good—if it amounts to little more than a screed, divorced from reality and devoid of fact, how does one respond to it?

 

Edited by Justin Z
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Pasquale for King
15 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

Question. 

Do you realise we all live collectively on an island. 

One massive island. We all have the same opportunitys. There is only geographical differences between North Britian and south Britian. It wouldn't matter if the parliament was in Manchester or Edinburgh. For some reason people want to complain that its shite being Scottish. 

 

There is no difference being Scottish, English or Welsh. Same crap weather, values and ideas. 

What exactly are you breaking up?? 

 

The armed forces would remain. 

National rail 

Royal mail

Electricity, gas, Internet 

Water 

Airlines

Nothing would drastically change from what we have now. 

 

The worst thing that happened was Scotland got its parliament back. 

 

Honestly nats are like spoiled brats. We want this, we want that. 

Perhaps perfect what you have got before wanting to do more. 

 

Scotland in the past decade has went back. All under an nationalist government. 

 

The education currículum is the worst yet. 

Abject poverty in parts of scotland is on par with 3rd World countries. 

Drugs and suicide are at an all time high in towns and cities across the land. 

Infrastructure in Scotland is shocking. 

Look at the state of the roads. 

Government still owns Prestwick 

Bifab shipyards

Salmondgate

 

The snp are the problem not some scoucer grafting making a living 

What a load of Labouresque nonsense. The worst part is Scotland getting back some democracy, what a nightmare eh. Let’s just have the privileged elite tell us what to do and be happy to graft for scraps. 

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Pasquale for King
40 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Agree. When I worked at the brewery one of my pals was a huge labour man and was full of the old "snp are tartan tories". Always told him if he wanted a real labour government then he had to vote for the snp. After independence pretty sure we will end up with a true labour party in power

Most likely, the SNP inhabit the same space Labour did with the same folk voting for it. 

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Auld Reekin'
12 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

 

I think @Restonbabe's post deserved a better response than that, gentlemen. This thread's been good so far, don't let it slide.

 

You do? :ermm:

 

Well, initially, I did think "where do I start?", but then just decided I wouldn't.

 

Nothing I could say in trying to refute anything in the post would change RB's mind about anything anyway.

 

Fair play to you for trying to keep things polite and civilised though!   :thumbsup:

Edited by Auld Reekin'
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56 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

With regards to currency and central banking (I read a lot about it all last time round but it's hazy now) we would potentially join the Euro (rejoining the EU, who knows) would we then be tethering ourselves to the European Central Bank so essentially at the mercy of Germany, France etc.  Which is potentially a worse situation than we have at the moment in a union with Westminster?

 

The general membership has a non binding commitment to join the Euro. 

Countries have joined and then not adopted it as their currency. 

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Konrad von Carstein
2 hours ago, sassenach said:

 

I don't actually agree with even holding referendums personally.  We elect politicians to make decisions, and I believe that they shouldn't be able to simply leave important matters to Joe Public who doesn't even understand many of the issues (I certainly don't).

Without a referendum Scotland would perpetually be a (very) junior (subservient) party to England...for some reason we are seen as both a drain/pest/undesirable and our representatives in WM are treated with utter disdain and disrespect...Bizarrely (to me) we are, at the same time, too valuable to let go!

 

How do we gain self determination without the vehicle of a referendum?

 

As an aside, do you really want to entrust certain things to a parliament that contains some of the biggest cretins ever elected?

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5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

:) Have a few drinks, read it again, and maybe you'll see it for what it is: a list of failings, not exclusive to Scotland, but which have continued and in some cases worsened under a nationalist, self-styled government in Holyrood.

 

I edited this into my post when you edited yours:

 

Edit: (added your edit, jonesy) Heart-on-sleeve-style or not, which is all well and good—if it amounts to little more than a screed, divorced from reality and devoid of fact, how does one respond to it?

 

So I'll give your suggestion a try, but I don't have high hopes :lol:

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7 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

No

 

 

 

Can't beat a good sing song and flag waving. That's me sold on Britannia.

 

What's that I hear? Pipes and is that a saltire waving in the wind? Oh damnit, I've switched again!

 

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Seymour M Hersh
4 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Can't beat a good sing song and flag waving. That's me sold on Britannia.

 

What's that I hear? Pipes and is that a saltire waving in the wind? Oh damnit, I've switched again!

 

 

And who can fail to be stirred by the massed pipes and drums and thousands of saltires waving at Murrayfield when we beat England. There is no dichotomy for me as the two are not mutually exclusive. 

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15 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

And who can fail to be stirred by the massed pipes and drums and thousands of saltires waving at Murrayfield when we beat England. There is no dichotomy for me as the two are not mutually exclusive. 

 

Fair post 👍

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Auld Reekin'
28 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

And who can fail to be stirred by the massed pipes and drums and thousands of saltires waving at Murrayfield when we beat England. There is no dichotomy for me as the two are not mutually exclusive. 

 

Whereas there is, or certainly should be, when you get tens of thousands of "No" voters singing "Flower of Scotland". Whilst going along with the at least some of the sentiments behind it, I hate that song and really want a new anthem for Scotland, independent or otherwise. Apart from anything else, it can't be played properly on the bagpipes....   

:muggy: :jj_facepalm:

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Byyy The Light
1 hour ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

I see this kind of argument a lot - horror at being linked to the euro in some way.

 

Why would that be worse then being in the Pound?

 

"At the mercy of.."     sounds as if they are going to torture us with their currency  - I don't see the Irish or Danish or Portuguese 'hurting' for being part of it?

 

This gets trotted out very simply like it is a great reason for not joining but Id be genuinely interested to know why people think it would be so terrible?


I was just looking at it from the point of view of levers to control inflation etc. We’d be a smaller piece of the pie and therefore potentially more affected (given less consideration) by these kind of decisions.  Although it works both ways.

 

The Scottish government seem to argue a lot that their hands are tied by Westminster policy. Surely the same would apply at European level?

 

Or is what currency we use unaffected by all of that? Genuine question. Economics not my strong suit. 

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Byyy The Light
1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

We can’t join the Euro right away, nobody wants to anyway. Poland joined in 2005 still use the Zloty. We start our own CB, it’s as easy as sitting someone at a desk and staring from there. It’s all been researched and is in place ready to decide on. https://commonweal.scot/library/how-to-launch-a-scottish-currency/


 


thanks 👍🏼

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The only rule about currency in the EU is that new members have to pledge to at some point join the Eurozone.

Without any time limits or other caveats.

 

Bulgaria still uses the Lev

Croatia still uses the Kuna

Czechs still use the Koruna

Denmark still uses the Krone

Hungary still uses the Forint

Poland still uses the Zloty

Romania still uses the Leu

Sweden still uses the Krona

Swizz Franc is still used in north Italy

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:


I was just looking at it from the point of view of levers to control inflation etc. We’d be a smaller piece of the pie and therefore potentially more affected (given less consideration) by these kind of decisions.  Although it works both ways.

 

The Scottish government seem to argue a lot that their hands are tied by Westminster policy. Surely the same would apply at European level?

 

Or is what currency we use unaffected by all of that? Genuine question. Economics not my strong suit. 

If Scotland joined the Eurozone then yes we'd still have no control over interest rates and liquidity and other central bank mechanics.

 

But Scotland would have full powers over domestic taxation and borrowing and other such fiscal policies.

 

Less power and flexibility than an independent currency but a damn sight more than we have right now tied to the Bank of England.

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Auld Reekin'
5 minutes ago, Cade said:

The only rule about currency in the EU is that new members have to pledge to at some point join the Eurozone.

Without any time limits or other caveats.

 

Bulgaria still uses the Lev

Croatia still uses the Kuna

Czechs still use the Koruna

Denmark still uses the Krone

Hungary still uses the Forint

Poland still uses the Zloty

Romania still uses the Leu

Sweden still uses the Krona

Swizz Franc is still used in north Italy

 

 

 

 

:ohmy:   Memo to self: when in Italy, always insist upon change in Euros...    :whistling:

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Byyy The Light
5 minutes ago, Cade said:

If Scotland joined the Eurozone then yes we'd still have no control over interest rates and liquidity and other central bank mechanics.

 

But Scotland would have full powers over domestic taxation and borrowing and other such fiscal policies.

 

Less power and flexibility than an independent currency but a damn sight more than we have right now tied to the Bank of England.


Thanks for response. Appreciated

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Weakened Offender
9 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

DID NOT READ

 

BORING

 

 

 

What a state to get yourself into on the Internet 😁

 

The answer to the question in the thread title is YES, btw. 

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manaliveits105
2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

No

 

 

 

great to see the saltires amongst the promenades 

 

and NAW 

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53 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

:ohmy:   Memo to self: when in Italy, always insist upon change in Euros...    :whistling:

I miss the days when you got your change in sweets or stamps cos they didn't have any small Lira coins.

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7 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Fair enough, JZ. If you don't try, then don't expect anyone else to do so, I suppose.

 

By all means call out the hyperbole and identify areas of dark ignorance where light may shine, but there is truth in RB's post, whether you like it or not. Posting a grotesque looking piece of fruit and an internet-funny phrase is akin to the debating style of the recently replaced president of your home country - what might be intended (and interpreted by some) as wit is nothing more than creating a dead end where a through road may once have been possible.

 

I'd make a terrible president, tbf. :sad:

 

8 minutes ago, jonesy said:

So, to bring it back to the thread - as someone not originally from here, do you think the majority of Americans, Canadians, Ozzies and Kiwis in Scotland are likely to be pro-indy or pro-union, and on what grounds? Or is it too simplistic to view it along nationality lines?

 

Thanks for the question! I think the vast majority of all of us outwith the UK will be pretty ignorant as to the ins and outs of Scottish independence. I heard about it in the passingest of passing in 2014, and my thought was, "gee I hope they stick around". That was pretty much the end of the analysis—I didn't have a clue as to the what or why. :lol: Needless to say it didn't take me spending too long here to understand the fundamental issues and really get it, but few will have that opportunity.

 

So I'd say a very high majority will be pro-union for pure sentimentality's sake.

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jack D and coke
4 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

When will England get their vote for their independence?

They voted overwhelmingly against a northern assembly. I know that’s not English indy but the north didn’t want one. 
I think like anything the English really just tend to get on with it and only brexit recently has awoken some of them. 
I don’t think that many of them would care too much if Scotland left. They think they keep us in my experience. 
I don’t mean any of that to sound derogatory either btw I’ve spent a lot of time down south. England is a brilliant country I love it. 

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Weakened Offender
5 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

You only have to look on here to know that some posters constantly go to the same well and pull up the same negative stuff 

 

Snigger. 

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Maroon Sailor
1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

What a state to get yourself into on the Internet 😁

 

The answer to the question in the thread title is YES, btw. 

 

Piss off nobhead

 

 

 

 

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Maroon Sailor
9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

They voted overwhelmingly against a northern assembly. I know that’s not English indy but the north didn’t want one. 
I think like anything the English really just tend to get on with it and only brexit recently has awoken some of them. 
I don’t think that many of them would care too much if Scotland left. They think they keep us in my experience. 
I don’t mean any of that to sound derogatory either btw I’ve spent a lot of time down south. England is a brilliant country I love it. 

 

Think the North might care as any chance of getting the Tories out will disappear.

 

Not sure about Cornwall either - funny place that politically and constitutionally.

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Think the North might care as any chance of getting the Tories out will disappear.

 

Not sure about Cornwall either - funny place that politically and constitutionally.

Aye they want indy too lol

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Maroon Sailor
2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Aye they want indy too lol

 

Spent a lot of time down there in the past 2 or 3 years and a lot of people I chatted with see themselves as Cornish rather than English.

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4 hours ago, Restonbabe said:

Question. 

Do you realise we all live collectively on an island. 

 

 

Why should living on an island mean that you should be one nation?  It might work if everyone buys into the idea that there's one nation on the island, but what if some don't?

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Weakened Offender
3 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Spent a lot of time down there in the past 2 or 3 years and a lot of people I chatted with see themselves as Cornish rather than English.

 

Did it cross your mind that they were maybe just expressing a desire to bring about a change in themselves rather than be Cornish and not English? 

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Maroon Sailor
Just now, Weakened Offender said:

 

Did it cross your mind that they were maybe just expressing a desire to bring about a change in themselves rather than be Cornish and not English? 

 

Piss off nobhead

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Maroon Sailor
21 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Why should living on an island mean that you should be one nation?  It might work if everyone buys into the idea that there's one nation on the island, but what if some don't?

 

Geographically it makes sense

 

However most countries are wrapped Geopolitically

 

Surprised the United States are still United. How do you keep the size of that population happy?!

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