Is the UK finished?

[milky_26]

35 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

But England vote would liikely dominate. The whole probelm. 

by the same principle any scot indy vote would be dominated by greater glasgow

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, milky_26 said:

by the same principle any scot indy vote would be dominated by greater glasgow

 

Pity we can't split Scotland in two or can we ?!😄

 

Have a Western Scotland with their own parliament in Glasgow.

 

I reckon that's where parliament will end up anyway in an iScotland

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

6 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

by the same principle any scot indy vote would be dominated by greater glasgow

 

 

and true

[jack D and coke]

9 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

by the same principle any scot indy vote would be dominated by greater glasgow

Not really or not on the same scale of 10/1. Edinburgh population growing all the time too. 
What would be fairer is to say the central belt would dominate the vote. 
But then we could get into the nonsense of splitting cities I suppose. 

[NANOJAMBO]

8 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Scotland to some of them seems like a distant mythical land it’s quite funny sometimes. Further south you go that is. 
Pretty much always got treated with the best of order though I’d have to say. I’d be mortified if English people didn’t receive the same 

I agree with all of that. 

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I think when some of the more extreme indy supporters start going on about 'the English' they are really meaning the Rees-Moggs and Johnsons of the political and moneyed classes, as well as the kind of rabid, skinhead English BNP-style nationalists (odd bedfellows indeed!). The problem comes with the term 'English' (and to some extent, 'Scottish', too) and the image it conjures for different people.

Maybe pal yeah. The Rees Moggs of this world and the people that enable them blow my mind tbh. 

[AlphonseCapone]

Just a couple of Saturday morning thoughts thinking about the sectarianism problem in Scotland. 

 

This comes from the perspective of someone raised Catholic (long an agnostic) but with a grandad in the Orange Lodge who took me to the Christmas and Summer family days out (very fond memories too), so a potentially rare perspective (or maybe not?). 

 

1. This isn't a rational argument, as no one can own a flag. But growing up in a place like West Lothian, the union flag was very much seen as a Protestant symbol. I only really seen rangers fans with it and those were the same folk signing songs about Catholics and the same laddies calling us "Fenian *******s" passing school (this is in no way a one side are better or worse, folk at my school called them "orange *******s" and would write "IRA" about the place). See point 2 for the schools thing. But, and I appreciate people might not understand it, the union flag, even now, even rationally, is something that makes me slightly uneasy and it's not even a political thing. 

 

2. Segregated schools are terrible ideas. That won't be popular amongst some people, more so Catholics in my experience but as I detailed above, you have kids under 10 shouting things at each other about "fenian", "orange whatever", "IRA/UVF etc". Kids with no idea what the hell they are on about repeating things they heard from parents with no idea what the hell they are on about. Yes, kids will still have the same parents but integrating and mixing will make the "other" seem less strange and less likely to believe any awful things they hear about them because you have a reference point. All my closest friends growing up were Catholic, why? Because we went to the same school. 

 

3. The head of state, the top of the pyramid in this country can't be a Catholic or any other religion that isn't Protestant. It might seem like no big deal but what does that say about a country when theoretically you can never reach the top position in your country because of the family you were born into. I get that you need to be born into a very specific family regardless to be head of state here so it's fairly academic but symbolically it does say something about a country. The Queen and royals were also another piece of symbolism for Protestants and rangers fans etc.

 

So what does this matter about the end of the UK? Probably not a massive amount but for those that don't necessarily understand how some of us don't feel attached to the idea of the UK or Britishness, some of the above hopefully gives an insight into it for some of us, some of the symbolism of Britishness was actually exclusionary. And again, not rationally, maybe not truly, but grow up in that environment and that's how it felt. Some people in this country grow up not feeling attached, and it's nothing to do with England and English people who tend not to give a shit about religion like we do or understand it (hence why they've never understood Ireland properly).

 

Sectarianism will be one of the biggest social problem for an independent Scotland, even if it has improved in some ways, but independence could cause some issues. I'd like to see segregated schools stopped immediately. And I hope we don't keep the Royals and move to elected head of state. 

 

Bit of a random post. Apologies. 

[A Boy Named Crow]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Absolutely nothing, but @Maroon Sailor has this weird idea apparently that it's boring to back up your opinions, and not boring to fling dimwitted shit at the wall and point at it, so here we are, discussing this utterly tedious idea.

I can't remember if you were here for the last independence referendum,  but that has been the unionist MO all along. It usually goes like this...

 

- Step 1 They create Straw Man.

- Step 2 They have their arse handed to them for the stupidity of their straw man.

- Step 3 They DEMAND answers to things that have been explained a million times already.

- Step 4 When answers to the above are, yet again  given, they ignore them.

- Step 5 Go back to Step 1.

 

I mean it's a tough shift for them,  constantly defending the indefensible. 

 

Some (most?) of them are just trolling, but it must be soul destroying for the true believers!

[jack D and coke]

10 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

Just a couple of Saturday morning thoughts thinking about the sectarianism problem in Scotland. 

 

This comes from the perspective of someone raised Catholic (long an agnostic) but with a grandad in the Orange Lodge who took me to the Christmas and Summer family days out (very fond memories too), so a potentially rare perspective (or maybe not?). 

 

1. This isn't a rational argument, as no one can own a flag. But growing up in a place like West Lothian, the union flag was very much seen as a Protestant symbol. I only really seen rangers fans with it and those were the same folk signing songs about Catholics and the same laddies calling us "Fenian *******s" passing school (this is in no way a one side are better or worse, folk at my school called them "orange *******s" and would write "IRA" about the place). See point 2 for the schools thing. But, and I appreciate people might not understand it, the union flag, even now, even rationally, is something that makes me slightly uneasy and it's not even a political thing. 

 

2. Segregated schools are terrible ideas. That won't be popular amongst some people, more so Catholics in my experience but as I detailed above, you have kids under 10 shouting things at each other about "fenian", "orange whatever", "IRA/UVF etc". Kids with no idea what the hell they are on about repeating things they heard from parents with no idea what the hell they are on about. Yes, kids will still have the same parents but integrating and mixing will make the "other" seem less strange and less likely to believe any awful things they hear about them because you have a reference point. All my closest friends growing up were Catholic, why? Because we went to the same school. 

 

3. The head of state, the top of the pyramid in this country can't be a Catholic or any other religion that isn't Protestant. It might seem like no big deal but what does that say about a country when theoretically you can never reach the top position in your country because of the family you were born into. I get that you need to be born into a very specific family regardless to be head of state here so it's fairly academic but symbolically it does say something about a country. The Queen and royals were also another piece of symbolism for Protestants and rangers fans etc.

 

So what does this matter about the end of the UK? Probably not a massive amount but for those that don't necessarily understand how some of us don't feel attached to the idea of the UK or Britishness, some of the above hopefully gives an insight into it for some of us, some of the symbolism of Britishness was actually exclusionary. And again, not rationally, maybe not truly, but grow up in that environment and that's how it felt. Some people in this country grow up not feeling attached, and it's nothing to do with England and English people who tend not to give a shit about religion like we do or understand it (hence why they've never understood Ireland properly).

 

Sectarianism will be one of the biggest social problem for an independent Scotland, even if it has improved in some ways, but independence could cause some issues. I'd like to see segregated schools stopped immediately. And I hope we don't keep the Royals and move to elected head of state. 

 

Bit of a random post. Apologies. 

Not random at all it’s very important. 
I come from a very Protestant family and I admit to being a bit of bigot when I was younger. Not horrible with it but I got involved in the singing etc with gusto. I thought it made me a bigger Hearts man. I won’t lie and say it doesn’t still come out me when we play Celtic and stuff but I’ve tried to rid myself of that nonsense. It’s not like I don’t have best pals who are catholics and I have family too and I love them to bits. I’d scrap separate schools overnight though it’s one of the biggest problems in Scotland for me. Separating kids at 5 and then wondering why there is issues is laughable. 
See how many people reference Celtic/catholics etc when mentioning the snp or indy movement too. It’s clear as day what they think is happening. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

9 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I can't remember if you were here for the last independence referendum,  but that has been the unionist MO all along. It usually goes like this...

 

- Step 1 They create Straw Man.

- Step 2 They have their arse handed to them for the stupidity of their straw man.

- Step 3 They DEMAND answers to things that have been explained a million times already.

- Step 4 When answers to the above are, yet again  given, they ignore them.

- Step 5 Go back to Step 1.

 

I mean it's a tough shift for them,  constantly defending the indefensible. 

 

Some (most?) of them are just trolling, but it must be soul destroying for the true believers!

 

all in your opinion (and those who agree with you) of course

[A Boy Named Crow]

4 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

all in your opinion (and those who agree with you) of course

That doesn't make it wrong though, eh 

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

That doesn't make it wrong though, eh 

 

No, no it doesn't.

 

I wasn't quite here yet in 2014, but the patterns you described have been all too apparent the past 5+ years.

 

Especially the part about "they've never made ANY <fill in the blank type of> case for Independence". It's happened on this board alone dozens of times. Whether any of those was a good case is up for debate, but considering how often they've been made, on pure numbers alone at least a few were probably decent, right?

 

All whilst carrying on about cults and "none so blind who will not see" and so on.

[Matty]

It’s hard to work exactly what the Westminster can do to make the ‘union’ more attractive. 
 

Whats always impressed/confused  me is the USA - numerous states, some so chalk and cheese compared to each other, different opinions, religions and some vastly different laws but yet when that star and stripes is waved they all, generally, come together and it’s them against the world. 
 

Could the UK achieve that with the Union Jack - who knows. I don’t think they have tried tbh. 
 

Only time it seemed to work, to an extent, is in world wars!

Edited March 6, 2021 by Matty

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Matty said:

Whats always impressed/confused  me is the USA - numerous states, some so chalk and cheese compared to each other, different opinions, religions and some vastly different laws but yet when that star and stripes is waved they all, generally, come together and it’s them against the world.

 

Yeah, we are definitely in the top five most propagandised populations on the planet, if not top one or two. It is impressive, in a depraved, twisted sort of way, considering the trillions we have spent on weapons with which to kill millions just since WWII—and for no other real reason than to protect Capital and its grip on our pretendy democracy.

 

Eisenhower warned us and we didn't listen to him, and here we are. I certainly hope the UK, given its longer (in absolute terms) historical flirtation with killing millions in far-flung places, never has a go at that sort of flagwaving thing again.

 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

30 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

That doesn't make it wrong though, eh 

 

it could do in other peoples opinion

[A Boy Named Crow]

2 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

it could do in other peoples opinion

Doesn't make them right though,  eh 

[Maroon Sailor]

24 minutes ago, Matty said:

It’s hard to work exactly what the Westminster can do to make the ‘union’ more attractive. 
 

Whats always impressed/confused  me is the USA - numerous states, some so chalk and cheese compared to each other, different opinions, religions and some vastly different laws but yet when that star and stripes is waved they all, generally, come together and it’s them against the world. 
 

Could the UK achieve that with the Union Jack - who knows. I don’t think they have tried tbh. 
 

Only time it seemed to work, to an extent, is in world wars!

 

That's what I was alluding to earlier on in this thread

 

No matter what shit state that country appears to be in it seems to be a case of play that anthem and raise that flag and they all come together.

[Tazio]

Buggered if can be bothered reading the previous six pages of what is most likely back and forth bickering from the usual people. 
I say yes though, the UK is damaged beyond repair. Even if Scottish independence never happens there is now more anti Westminster feeling in all parts of the UK than I have ever seen. With quite a few half wits translating that to become anti English sentiment, which will have the longer effect of the dumber part of English society becoming anti Scottish. The UK is facing a nicely toxic future if it stays together. 

[jack D and coke]

15 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

That's what I was alluding to earlier on in this thread

 

No matter what shit state that country appears to be in it seems to be a case of play that anthem and raise that flag and they all come together.

You think?? They all hate each other  

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

You think?? They all hate each other  

 

I don't see that but I don't pay much attention to it.

 

They are all Americans at the end of the day whether they are from California or Maine

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

I don't see that but I don't pay much attention to it.

 

They are all Americans at the end of the day whether they are from California or Maine

The MAGA crew and Democrats are poles apart I reckon now. Politics has become like football. 

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

The MAGA crew and Democrats are poles apart I reckon now. Politics has become like football. 

 

Do you see the some States voting to break away ?

[Pasquale for King]

5 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

This is why it would be interesting imo to have a UK vote on the Union to either keep all 4 nations together or split the 4 nations - no in between.

 

All in or All out

 

 

How would it work? Let 50 million English voters decide as always or 1 vote per nation on each country seceding?

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

How would it work? Let 50 million English voters decide as always or 1 vote per nation on each country seceding?

 

Let everybody eligible in the UK to vote but don't break down the results from the 4 nations. Keep it as one UK vote

 

Be interesting to see the result of it that's all.

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Pity we can't split Scotland in two or can we ?!😄

 

Have a Western Scotland with their own parliament in Glasgow.

 

I reckon that's where parliament will end up anyway in an iScotland

Not a chance, Edinburgh is on track to become the biggest city in the next few decades anyway apparently. 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Let everybody eligible in the UK to vote but don't break down the results from the 4 nations. Keep it as one UK vote

 

Be interesting to see the result of it that's all.

As it’s been said that’s why folk in these different countries want to leave, that England’s votes override theirs. 
Did the EU countries get that chance? 
Not going to happen but it would be interesting. I think as time goes by polls show England want rid of us thankfully, something that might change the UK government’s attitude. 

[jack D and coke]

41 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Do you see the some States voting to break away ?

It’s federal so no I’d doubt it. All their states have almost complete freedom. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

1 hour ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Doesn't make them right though,  eh 

 

agreed

 

I was clarifying that your post contained a list of points based on your take on things - your opinion

 

you appeared to inherently agree to that in your “doesn’t make it wrong” reply

 

thats the only point I was making at this time

[Maroon Sailor]

12 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s federal so no I’d doubt it. All their states have almost complete freedom. 

 

That got me thinking how the money is divided up

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets

 

Surprised how much the state of Washington gets 

[jack D and coke]

41 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Do you see the some States voting to break away ?

It’s federal so no I’d doubt it. All their states have almost complete freedom. 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

That got me thinking how the money is divided up

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets

 

Surprised how much the state of Washington gets 

That is quite surprising. 

[Weakened Offender]

2 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

Just a couple of Saturday morning thoughts thinking about the sectarianism problem in Scotland. 

 

This comes from the perspective of someone raised Catholic (long an agnostic) but with a grandad in the Orange Lodge who took me to the Christmas and Summer family days out (very fond memories too), so a potentially rare perspective (or maybe not?). 

 

1. This isn't a rational argument, as no one can own a flag. But growing up in a place like West Lothian, the union flag was very much seen as a Protestant symbol. I only really seen rangers fans with it and those were the same folk signing songs about Catholics and the same laddies calling us "Fenian *******s" passing school (this is in no way a one side are better or worse, folk at my school called them "orange *******s" and would write "IRA" about the place). See point 2 for the schools thing. But, and I appreciate people might not understand it, the union flag, even now, even rationally, is something that makes me slightly uneasy and it's not even a political thing. 

 

2. Segregated schools are terrible ideas. That won't be popular amongst some people, more so Catholics in my experience but as I detailed above, you have kids under 10 shouting things at each other about "fenian", "orange whatever", "IRA/UVF etc". Kids with no idea what the hell they are on about repeating things they heard from parents with no idea what the hell they are on about. Yes, kids will still have the same parents but integrating and mixing will make the "other" seem less strange and less likely to believe any awful things they hear about them because you have a reference point. All my closest friends growing up were Catholic, why? Because we went to the same school. 

 

3. The head of state, the top of the pyramid in this country can't be a Catholic or any other religion that isn't Protestant. It might seem like no big deal but what does that say about a country when theoretically you can never reach the top position in your country because of the family you were born into. I get that you need to be born into a very specific family regardless to be head of state here so it's fairly academic but symbolically it does say something about a country. The Queen and royals were also another piece of symbolism for Protestants and rangers fans etc.

 

So what does this matter about the end of the UK? Probably not a massive amount but for those that don't necessarily understand how some of us don't feel attached to the idea of the UK or Britishness, some of the above hopefully gives an insight into it for some of us, some of the symbolism of Britishness was actually exclusionary. And again, not rationally, maybe not truly, but grow up in that environment and that's how it felt. Some people in this country grow up not feeling attached, and it's nothing to do with England and English people who tend not to give a shit about religion like we do or understand it (hence why they've never understood Ireland properly).

 

Sectarianism will be one of the biggest social problem for an independent Scotland, even if it has improved in some ways, but independence could cause some issues. I'd like to see segregated schools stopped immediately. And I hope we don't keep the Royals and move to elected head of state. 

 

Bit of a random post. Apologies. 

 

It's the best post on the thread. 

 

Wider sectarianism in an independent Scotland is a fear that many Scottish catholics have. 

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

Not a chance, Edinburgh is on track to become the biggest city in the next few decades anyway apparently. 

How come? Are they making it just Glasgow City centre. They've been chopping Glasgow up for 50 years now. And it's still bigger. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by ri Alban

[Governor Tarkin]

8 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Not on here, I wouldn’t want another months “sabbatical” 😆. 

 

 

I could do with one tbh.

[A Boy Named Crow]

8 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

agreed

 

I was clarifying that your post contained a list of points based on your take on things - your opinion

 

you appeared to inherently agree to that in your “doesn’t make it wrong” reply

 

thats the only point I was making at this time

I'd say they were observations,  followed by a little sympathy. 

[Das Viertel Hearts]

On 05/03/2021 at 09:39, Norm said:

Scottish independence still sitting at over 50% Yes in the polls, Northern Ireland sitting at 42% and, most surprisingly, Wales now sitting at over 40% when it traditionally polled at the 10% level. 

 

Is the break up inevitable? What can Westminster do to make staying in the union more attractive? 

 

Better Together.   Harbinger and exemplar of the unbridled power of systematic falsehoods. 

 

We got exactly and entirely what we deserved.  Unfortunately.

[Ulysses]

10 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

That got me thinking how the money is divided up

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets

 

Surprised how much the state of Washington gets 

 

10 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

That is quite surprising. 

 

The table says that the figure for Washington state covers 2 years.  If you halve the figure it looks a lot more reasonable.

[Maroon Sailor]

12 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

The table says that the figure for Washington state covers 2 years.  If you halve the figure it looks a lot more reasonable.

 

Good spot - still have one of the best budgets per capita

[Ulysses]

9 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Good spot - still have one of the best budgets per capita

 

I'd imagine it's one of the more "high taxation high spending" states. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

3 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I'd say they were observations,  followed by a little sympathy. 

 

thats decent of you mate hopefully you are afforded the same sympathy in return from those of a differing opinion

[Ainsley Harriott]

On 05/03/2021 at 09:39, Norm said:

Scottish independence still sitting at over 50% Yes in the polls, Northern Ireland sitting at 42% and, most surprisingly, Wales now sitting at over 40% when it traditionally polled at the 10% level. 

 

Is the break up inevitable? What can Westminster do to make staying in the union more attractive? 

Just to update you it appears the remain camp is now leading again. To answer your question no it isn't. I hope you enjoyed the fews months when you thought independence might becoming though

 

Scotland is very much British 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/07/most-scots-would-back-remaining-in-uk-new-poll-suggests

[kila]

6 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

 

what a load of pish you both haver at us all in public.

 

Do you think you will grow up at some stage?

It’s you that needs to grow up. Your posts are shite and mostly just digs and insults. You don’t bring much to the debate unless you think sneering counts. A lost cause some may say. 

[manaliveits105]

Scottish people getting fed up with snp -maybe we can get on with our lives now and vote in politicians in Scotland who are able to do the right thing, care about having real life priorities like improving health service , drugs problems . crime, poverty etc and not pursuing some Mel Gibson film mantra . Big ask but having more than one aim in life might just help.

 

[leginten]

The worry for those of us who believe Scotland should be independent is that even with the current, truly dreadful Tory government in power - surely the most obnoxious, incompetent, corrupt, xenophobic and ignorant bunch of individuals to govern the UK in living memory - the vast number of recent polls has put support for independence only somewhere in the low to mid 50% bracket.

 

You have a PM whose contempt for the Scots and their institutions has been made clear on numerous occasions, his appalling Brexit, his laughable handling of the pandemic and his serial lying. 
 

So you ask yourself: why is it that the figure for independence is not somewhere around 80-90%? And: how much longer do you accept meekly that Scotland (at UK level) gets the opposite of what it votes for? And, eventually: where is your self-respect?
 

I’m constantly reminded of a line from an Elvis Costello song. “He stands to be insulted and he pays for the privilege.”

[manaliveits105]

27 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

Because the vast majority of us are pro-independence so it’s only threads started by bell-ends over a year ago that stay on page 1. 

Checked the polls naw ?

[ri Alban]

I have never, not ever, been asked by any poll about my vote.

 

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, BarneyBattles said:

You’re another one. Weirdo. 

Naw, he's the sort who only gives an opinion surrounded by fellow traitors. He wouldn't utter a sound of opinion on his cowardly own. 

[manaliveits105]

the nationalist art of debate insult and smileys 

[Cruyff]

9 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

ha ha ha, I know 1 thing for a fact, whatever @Cruyff says is 100% always works out, (not) ha ha

 

Well done, you've surpassed yourself. 👍 

 

[XB52]

48 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Checked the polls naw ?

As has been shown many times before, the vast majority of JKB support independence. Just a pity the vocal minority have more time on their hands. Mind you I wish Aussieh was busier as his posts get more and more bizarre by the day.