Is the UK finished?

[ri Alban]

Just now, Barack said:

True. But every now & again you pays your money you takes your chances.

 

The scientific community in this country should be rightly lauded. The UK, and by extension the devolved governments, take credit for working together swiftly & implementing it in a time of national crisis. 

 

I'm not saying we're better together. Just sometimes, it's not too bad. On the whole though, I've accepted the fact Scotland probably is now on course to become independent. I'm comfortable with that, & that's what Democracy should be about. 

Of course and if there's a next time, we can shut the borders. Immediately. 

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Barack said:

True. But every now & again you pays your money you takes your chances.

 

The scientific community in this country should be rightly lauded. The UK, and by extension the devolved governments, take credit for working together swiftly & implementing it in a time of national crisis. 

 

I'm not saying we're better together. Just sometimes, it's not too bad. On the whole though, I've accepted the fact Scotland probably is now on course to become independent. I'm comfortable with that, & that's what Democracy should be about. 

 

Great post that really gets at the heart of it—honouring the principles of democracy.

[Nucky Thompson]

28 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I know a fair few Northern English people who wished they could join us

I don't know any and I mix with loads of them on a weekly basis.

They have no dislike for Scotland or Scottish people but they are all proud to be English.

You just have to be in their company when England are playing on the telly

[Nucky Thompson]

22 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Fecking Hell, the vaccine brough back the 130,000 deid folk. Amazing! 

The vaccine was bought to stop a lot more folk dying.

Would you rather more were dropping died while we waited on the EU roll out

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I don't know any and I mix with loads of them on a weekly basis.

They have no dislike for Scotland or Scottish people but they are all proud to be English.

You just have to be in their company when England are playing on the telly

You must love it, surrounded with butcher's aprons. Pure NT Heaven. 

[ri Alban]

Just now, Nucky Thompson said:

The vaccine was bought to stop a lot more folk dying.

Would you rather more were dropping died while we waited on the EU roll out

The UK were still in the EU when the roll out started. What EU members do is up to them. But I know for a fact, we'd have shut all borders and had our own vaccine, with close to NZ numbers. But no, we were fecked stuck to the UK and now have 7000+ dead with England sitting with over 15x that number. 

 

 

 

Anyway, my tax will cover my vaccine cost. 

[Nucky Thompson]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

You must love it, surrounded with butcher's aprons. Pure NT Heaven. 

I love it mate, I love it 

[Nucky Thompson]

Just now, ri Alban said:

The UK were still in the EU when the roll out started. What EU members do is up to them. But I know for a fact, we'd have shut all borders and had our own vaccine, with close to NZ numbers. But no, we were fecked stuck to the UK and now have 7000+ dead with England sitting with over 15x that number. 

 

 

 

Anyway, my tax will cover my vaccine cost. 

Aye. You know for a fact. Hindsight is a great thing

Sturgeon fecked up on her own, no help from the Tories whatsoever 

[scott herbertson]

5 minutes ago, Barack said:

True. But every now & again you pays your money you takes your chances.

 

The scientific community in this country should be rightly lauded. The UK, and by extension the devolved governments, take credit for working together swiftly & implementing it in a time of national crisis. 

 

I'm not saying we're better together. Just sometimes, it's not too bad. On the whole though, I've accepted the fact Scotland probably is now on course to become independent. I'm comfortable with that, & that's what Democracy should be about. 

 

 

I agree - it is tempting to overpaint everything with a political hue, whereas somethings are better in the Union and others aren't.

 

Undoubtedly the more freewheeling approach worked with vaccine sourcing and it would be narrow minded to say that we would have done the same in an independent Scotland - I doubt if we would have if I'm honest. However the same approach could have backfired and some of the other UK decisions have been very poor. 

 

Research and development and the strength of Oxford and Cambridge's reputation are also good examples of where Scotland can benefit from being in the Union.

 

England is also benefiting, in my opinion, from the injection of a new energy from South Asian immigration, whereas the plague of sectarianism still dogs some areas of Scottish culture (football being the most obvious) =. However England has issues with how some communities have integrated (or not) and tensions resultant.

 

On the whole I am very much in favour of independence but I don't doubt there are areas where things would be worse outside it  as well as those where things will be better.

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

28 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I lived there(Hampshire) for 26 years 1979-2005. My father in law was quizzed as to why he was letting his daughter marry a Jock.

Nothing quite like a bit "casual racism" before the ceremony...

[John Findlay]

7 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Nothing quite like a bit "casual racism" before the ceremony...

Didnt bother me or him in the slightest. 

[Pans Jambo]

8 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Didnt bother me or him in the slightest. 

Fair enough but for some reason, its starting to get right on my onions. I work for a company based in Birmingham and out of well over 450 people, I am the only Scot. "jockistani", Och Aye the Noo", "deep Fried Mars Bars" etc. is what I hear regularly.

Of course I just call them Maypole Morris dancing, hankie waving, cricket watching, bitter drinking P***s (which doesn't help) but it's ALWAYS them who kick it off.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Pans Jambo

[kila]

I'd support the Union if it weren't so English elitism focused.

 

There's no room for socialism for the rest of the home nations because England vote for austerity and misery. Until that gets solved, the UK will remain on a path of conflict.

 

[Justin Z]

16 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Fair enough but for some reason, its starting to get right on my onions. I work for a company based in Birmingham and out of well over 450 people, I am the only Scot. "jockistani", Och Aye the Noo", "deep Fried Mars Bars" etc. is what I hear regularly.

Of course I just call them Maypole Morris dancing, hankie waving, cricket watching, bitter drinking P***s (which doesn't help) but it's ALWAYS them who kick it off.

 

I don't mean to “both sides” your experiences Pans, but my girlfriend, who is Edinburgh-born but lives in Morpeth, her most recent ex was a real flag waving Indy type, even wore his kilt most everywhere ffs. Anyway, he and his family were both super anti-English to her, slated her accent, said it was shite to be English to her, all this stuff, to the point where it made her really lose a lot of good feelings about her Scottishness.

 

The only solution imo is to rise above and just be better, no matter which direction this kind of nonsense is coming from.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Justin Z

[Pans Jambo]

9 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I don't mean to “both sides” your experiences Pans, but my girlfriend, who is Edinburgh-born but lives in Morpeth, her most recent ex was a real flag waving Indy type, even wore his kilt most everywhere ffs. Anyway, he and his family were both super anti-English to her, slated her accented, said it was shite to be English to her, all this stuff, to the point where it made her really lose a lot of good feelings about her Scottishness.

 

The only solution imo is to rise above and just be better, no matter which direction this kind of nonsense is coming from.

Yeah he sounds charming. Like any racism (not full on racism but racism or xenophobia all the same) you're right, best to rise above it. 👍

Edited March 5, 2021 by Pans Jambo

[CF11JamTart]

1 hour ago, Norm said:

What I find curious is the sudden surge in Wales. Its difficult to pin Brexit on that when the majority voted Leave in Wales. I don't think I would ever have expected Welsh independence to be as popular as 40%.

 

I don't doubt that statistic came from an genuine source but it absolutely does not accord with what I'm seeing in Wales.

 

There is a lot of real frustration with Welsh Government and their general uselessness. They seem pretty ineffectual... a hot-air talking-shop with strong Welsh language lobbying-groups.

 

There are cars with Yes-Cymru stickers on them, more than there used to be. But there doesn't feel like much of a push for independence. It's not part of the dialogue of the nation. People aren't saying "more Drakeford, please".

 

Plaid Cymru are the only ones really talking about independence for Wales,  but they seem short on any details.

 

Welsh Labour hoover-up the votes... God knows why... but  they aren't making noises about independence.

 

I guess the next elections will be telling. 

 

If 40% want independence, that'll be a massive upsurge in Plaid's fortunes. 

 

Or maybe people are conflating being pro-Welsh language with being pro-independence.

 

Maybe independence would be good... in a "rip it up and start again" way. Might end up with a government who don't just seem like town councillors who got lucky.

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Barack said:

True. But every now & again you pays your money you takes your chances.

 

The scientific community in this country should be rightly lauded. The UK, and by extension the devolved governments, take credit for working together swiftly & implementing it in a time of national crisis. 

 

I'm not saying we're better together. Just sometimes, it's not too bad. On the whole though, I've accepted the fact Scotland probably is now on course to become independent. I'm comfortable with that, & that's what Democracy should be about. 

[pablo]

20 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Fair enough but for some reason, its starting to get right on my onions. I work for a company based in Birmingham and out of well over 450 people, I am the only Scot. "jockistani", Och Aye the Noo", "deep Fried Mars Bars" etc. is what I hear regularly.

Of course I just call them Maypole Morris dancing, hankie waving, cricket watching, bitter drinking P***s (which doesn't help) but it's ALWAYS them who kick it off.

 

This is either a bare faced lie or you're a knob who bangs on about imaginary Scottish grievances to provoke that reaction. You've got form for both to be fair.

[John Findlay]

29 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Fair enough but for some reason, its starting to get right on my onions. I work for a company based in Birmingham and out of well over 450 people, I am the only Scot. "jockistani", Och Aye the Noo", "deep Fried Mars Bars" etc. is what I hear regularly.

Of course I just call them Maypole Morris dancing, hankie waving, cricket watching, bitter drinking P***s (which doesn't help) but it's ALWAYS them who kick it off.

Wait until they call you a FRISP( ****ing Repugnant Ignorant Scottish Pig), dont bite.

[Justin Z]

7 minutes ago, pablo said:

This is either a bare faced lie or you're a knob who bangs on about imaginary Scottish grievances to provoke that reaction. You've got form for both to be fair.

 

Gee pablo, it's not like you to come to the defence of bullies, what gives?

[Cruyff]

Scottish Unionists who believe in the Union seem to have become more obedient & subservient towards towards their masters in London. They refuse to defend Scotlands equal place within the Union, which is what they should be doing. Defending its culture, defending its peculiarities and principles, instead they argue such distinctly English principles to undermine their own Countries standing and allow it to be swallowed up by its larger neighbour.Perhaps if they fought Scotlands corner within the Union instead of acting like doormats and 5th columnists, then the Union wouldn't be in the perilous position it is in today. 

[millerjames398]

3 hours ago, jonesy said:

 

Now thats music my heart can beat along to😂👍🏼

[Pans Jambo]

11 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

This is either a bare faced lie or you're a knob who bangs on about imaginary Scottish grievances to provoke that reaction. You've got form for both to be fair.

Well thank-you for the accusation. Now I feel like I have to defend my position.

 

Which part do you think I lied about? Working for an English based company? Getting ribbed for being a "Jock"? or me holding my own with them?

 

You don't think any of that is accurate? You don't think anyone in England (as in Scotland) indulges in cretinous behaviour?

 

So you think I just love coming onto a football forum and being a "knob" and sprouting pish from my imagination then?

 

Niiiice 

[Pans Jambo]

10 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Scottish Unionists who believe in the Union seem to have become more obedient & subservient towards towards their masters in London. They refuse to defend Scotlands equal place within the Union, which is what they should be doing. Defending its culture, defending its peculiarities and principles, instead they argue such distinctly English principles to undermine their own Countries standing and allow it to be swallowed up by its larger neighbour.Perhaps if they fought Scotlands corner within the Union instead of acting like doormats and 5th columnists, then the Union wouldn't be in the perilous position it is in today. 

Post of the thread!

[Pasquale for King]

50 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said:

 

I don't doubt that statistic came from an genuine source but it absolutely does not accord with what I'm seeing in Wales.

 

There is a lot of real frustration with Welsh Government and their general uselessness. They seem pretty ineffectual... a hot-air talking-shop with strong Welsh language lobbying-groups.

 

There are cars with Yes-Cymru stickers on them, more than there used to be. But there doesn't feel like much of a push for independence. It's not part of the dialogue of the nation. People aren't saying "more Drakeford, please".

 

Plaid Cymru are the only ones really talking about independence for Wales,  but they seem short on any details.

 

Welsh Labour hoover-up the votes... God knows why... but  they aren't making noises about independence.

 

I guess the next elections will be telling. 

 

If 40% want independence, that'll be a massive upsurge in Plaid's fortunes. 

 

Or maybe people are conflating being pro-Welsh language with being pro-independence.

 

Maybe independence would be good... in a "rip it up and start again" way. Might end up with a government who don't just seem like town councillors who got lucky.

It seems the Labour parry in Wales have been talking about independence for years. I think Drakeford called it inevitable in the last few days.  I suppose it depends on what areas and circles you mix in. Good luck to them. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50013949

[CF11JamTart]

6 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

It seems the Labour parry in Wales have been talking about independence for years. I think Drakeford called it inevitable in the last few days.  I suppose it depends on what areas and circles you mix in. Good luck to them. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50013949

 

Talking about independence is different from wanting it.

 

At present,  there is one vocally pro-independence party in Wales. That's Plaid Cymru. And even then, they aren't THAT vociferous. 

 

As the article says, if pro-independence parties get a majority in the Senedd, that should be mandate for an independence referendum. 

 

At present,  that would require a big swing in Plaid's fortunes. Or Drakeford to dramatically change Welsh Labour's posture. 

 

One way or the other,  the Union is finished in its present form.  Wales needs to work out where it wants to be and a stop navel-gazing.

[Auldbenches]

5 hours ago, jamboj said:

Westminster is an affront to democracy and good sense. The electoral system, and particularly the house of lords, are a disgrace in the modern world. The fact that this stuff doesn't even get mentioned by those 'born to rule pony ******s' says everything you need to know about them. I hope the UK is finished, truly I do 

It's this for me as well.  I just want away from the antiquated democracy that is Westminster as they will never change that system and I don't want to be stuck being governed by ex Eton prefects.  

How Scottish spin doctors do you know?  The last week has been terrible for Holyrood and doesn't do our politics any favours, but nothing compared to that place.   

I wonder what the percentage of top political positions in this country go to those from the private school system than those in Westminster.

Baffled how anyone would want to be governed by that place.  

[Pasquale for King]

30 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said:

 

Talking about independence is different from wanting it.

 

At present,  there is one vocally pro-independence party in Wales. That's Plaid Cymru. And even then, they aren't THAT vociferous. 

 

As the article says, if pro-independence parties get a majority in the Senedd, that should be mandate for an independence referendum. 

 

At present,  that would require a big swing in Plaid's fortunes. Or Drakeford to dramatically change Welsh Labour's posture. 

 

One way or the other,  the Union is finished in its present form.  Wales needs to work out where it wants to be and a stop navel-gazing.

Fair enough, as I said good luck to them. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Pasquale for King

[Pasquale for King]

45 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Englishman in peace here....

 

I was never a big fan of the EU.  I was a small child when the UK joined the Common Market, which I think was mainly about trade and not much else to begin with.  As I grew older the ties with Europe became tighter and tighter, politically and legally, and to a degree financially as well.  I was never comfortable with anything beyond just trade. It could be because I might have a "little Englander" mentality, but I could never reconcile myself with being subservient to foreigners who I had no chance to vote out.  I certainly have never felt in the slightest bit European, only English and British (in equal measure).

 

Having said all of this, come the EU referendum I voted remain. The reason was simple - although my heart said leave, my head said that there were no guaranteed advantages to leaving.  It wouldn't  necessarily have made my job any more secure, or put any more money in my pocket, or improved my grandkids' education, or improved my life in any tangible way as far as I could see.  So I voted for the status quo.  I was, though, outvoted, so I respect the decision and we'll see what happens.

 

The relevance of all of this?  I can fully understand how Scots might see themselves as subservient to the English within the UK, just as I felt subservient to the EU. But with head ruling heart, I can't really see how Scotland separating from the UK would improve the overall day-to-day lives of its citizens in any tangible way, just as I couldn't see enough benefits of leaving the EU.

 

Having said all of this, I think Scotland will separate sooner or later. It will only take one Yes vote, be it next time, the time after or whenever.  And the will of the Scottish people should be respected in this matter.  I just can't see how Scotland leaving the UK would be any more logical than the UK leaving the EU.

 

I would love to buy you a pint and explain all the many reasons. 
Basically to have governments that we vote for who make decisions in line with what we as a country want. Just like any other country in the world. 

[NANOJAMBO]

47 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Englishman in peace here....

 

I was never a big fan of the EU.  I was a small child when the UK joined the Common Market, which I think was mainly about trade and not much else to begin with.  As I grew older the ties with Europe became tighter and tighter, politically and legally, and to a degree financially as well.  I was never comfortable with anything beyond just trade. It could be because I might have a "little Englander" mentality, but I could never reconcile myself with being subservient to foreigners who I had no chance to vote out.  I certainly have never felt in the slightest bit European, only English and British (in equal measure).

 

Having said all of this, come the EU referendum I voted remain. The reason was simple - although my heart said leave, my head said that there were no guaranteed advantages to leaving.  It wouldn't  necessarily have made my job any more secure, or put any more money in my pocket, or improved my grandkids' education, or improved my life in any tangible way as far as I could see.  So I voted for the status quo.  I was, though, outvoted, so I respect the decision and we'll see what happens.

 

The relevance of all of this?  I can fully understand how Scots might see themselves as subservient to the English within the UK, just as I felt subservient to the EU. But with head ruling heart, I can't really see how Scotland separating from the UK would improve the overall day-to-day lives of its citizens in any tangible way, just as I couldn't see enough benefits of leaving the EU.

 

Having said all of this, I think Scotland will separate sooner or later. It will only take one Yes vote, be it next time, the time after or whenever.  And the will of the Scottish people should be respected in this matter.  I just can't see how Scotland leaving the UK would be any more logical than the UK leaving the EU.

 

As a Scot living in England, I enjoyed your post. My missus re EU membership has the same views, she wanted to leave but always said the case for leaving had never been made (other  than the emotional appeal) whereas the pitfalls of leaving were made clear by "Remain". Her views. Not mine. 

As a pro indy man myself I find your last sentence interesting and without hijacking this very good thread I just wanted to say : the logic of independence is quite clear to those who have invested the time to educate themselves beyond the "Barnett Formula" , "we'll die because we'll have to take on "our share" of the UK debt" propaganda. I hope that doesn't sound insulting, it isn't meant to be. 

Scotland is a wealthy country but simply a region of England and the only thing that matters in England is London & the Home counties. I say that after over 30 years down here in an area where even the locals are fed up with the London centric view of the UK.

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, sassenach said:

 

This is exactly how I felt about being in the EU. But at the end of the day, I couldn't see how leaving was going to put any more food on the table, so remain was the best of 2 evils.

 

I respect your opinion though.  I'll let you buy me that pint if we ever meet in Diggers before a game 🍻 ⚽

Yeah I’m no big fan of the EU either but I think it’s had less control over the U.K. than Westminster has over Scotland. 
Hopefully next season we can all be back in the pub and at matches. 

[Maroon Sailor]

57 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Englishman in peace here....

 

I was never a big fan of the EU.  I was a small child when the UK joined the Common Market, which I think was mainly about trade and not much else to begin with.  As I grew older the ties with Europe became tighter and tighter, politically and legally, and to a degree financially as well.  I was never comfortable with anything beyond just trade. It could be because I might have a "little Englander" mentality, but I could never reconcile myself with being subservient to foreigners who I had no chance to vote out.  I certainly have never felt in the slightest bit European, only English and British (in equal measure).

 

Having said all of this, come the EU referendum I voted remain. The reason was simple - although my heart said leave, my head said that there were no guaranteed advantages to leaving.  It wouldn't  necessarily have made my job any more secure, or put any more money in my pocket, or improved my grandkids' education, or improved my life in any tangible way as far as I could see.  So I voted for the status quo.  I was, though, outvoted, so I respect the decision and we'll see what happens.

 

The relevance of all of this?  I can fully understand how Scots might see themselves as subservient to the English within the UK, just as I felt subservient to the EU. But with head ruling heart, I can't really see how Scotland separating from the UK would improve the overall day-to-day lives of its citizens in any tangible way, just as I couldn't see enough benefits of leaving the EU.

 

Having said all of this, I think Scotland will separate sooner or later. It will only take one Yes vote, be it next time, the time after or whenever.  And the will of the Scottish people should be respected in this matter.  I just can't see how Scotland leaving the UK would be any more logical than the UK leaving the EU.

 

 

That is the trouble with referendums - if it's 51% to 49% it's the will of the people. The Country has spoken etc ......

 

It's not it's the will of slightly more than half and some of them will not even have been born or raised in that particular country.

 

Change the winning post for referendums to 70% and they won't be so divisive.

 

 

 

[John Findlay]

59 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Englishman in peace here....

 

I was never a big fan of the EU.  I was a small child when the UK joined the Common Market, which I think was mainly about trade and not much else to begin with.  As I grew older the ties with Europe became tighter and tighter, politically and legally, and to a degree financially as well.  I was never comfortable with anything beyond just trade. It could be because I might have a "little Englander" mentality, but I could never reconcile myself with being subservient to foreigners who I had no chance to vote out.  I certainly have never felt in the slightest bit European, only English and British (in equal measure).

 

Having said all of this, come the EU referendum I voted remain. The reason was simple - although my heart said leave, my head said that there were no guaranteed advantages to leaving.  It wouldn't  necessarily have made my job any more secure, or put any more money in my pocket, or improved my grandkids' education, or improved my life in any tangible way as far as I could see.  So I voted for the status quo.  I was, though, outvoted, so I respect the decision and we'll see what happens.

 

The relevance of all of this?  I can fully understand how Scots might see themselves as subservient to the English within the UK, just as I felt subservient to the EU. But with head ruling heart, I can't really see how Scotland separating from the UK would improve the overall day-to-day lives of its citizens in any tangible way, just as I couldn't see enough benefits of leaving the EU.

 

Having said all of this, I think Scotland will separate sooner or later. It will only take one Yes vote, be it next time, the time after or whenever.  And the will of the Scottish people should be respected in this matter.  I just can't see how Scotland leaving the UK would be any more logical than the UK leaving the EU.

 

As looks likely and Scotland does become independent from the UK and joins the EU. Then it is a sad state of affairs that we feel we will get a better deal from Brussels than London.

The animosity between Northern English and Southern is not a made up thing. It genuinely exists. More from the North towards the South as like us a lot of Northern English people believe the WM dont care north of Watford.

[NANOJAMBO]

2 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I can only speak for myself as a Yorkshireman. I hold no animosity towards the South at all.  I actually pity them because we have a much better standard of living than they do. They travel here for their holidays, we get to enjoy it all the time.

😆

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, sassenach said:

 

I don't actually agree with even holding referendums personally.  We elect politicians to make decisions, and I believe that they shouldn't be able to simply leave important matters to Joe Public who doesn't even understand many of the issues (I certainly don't).

 

That's the trouble with the question on the constitution.

 

We can vote governments out even if we don't understand many of the issues, but no going back on the constitution.

[John Findlay]

19 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I can only speak for myself as a Yorkshireman. I hold no animosity towards the South at all.  I actually pity them because we have a much better standard of living than they do. They travel here for their holidays, we get to enjoy it all the time.

All I can say is that in my experience you are in the minority of Yorkshiremen.

[Mysterion]

3 minutes ago, sassenach said:

It would make more sense to me if Scots selected candidates for the main UK parties who have more separatist leanings. When these get elected to parliament they might have more influence, especially if they are in the party if government.  I know that the official line of all the major parties currently is to keep the union, but that doesn't prevent individual MPs from holding the opposite view. Get those MPs having conversations within the main parties, rather than having a marginalised pressure group outside the main parties (I realise that there is probably so much wrong with this idea, but just an initial thought).

 

Wouldn't they would have the party whip withdrawn if they step out of line from the voting intention of their party (thus rendering them a non-entity) ?

 

 

[kila]

1 hour ago, sassenach said:

I can't really see how Scotland separating from the UK would improve the overall day-to-day lives of its citizens in any tangible way.

 

It comes across that you are implying a decade of (English voted) Tory austerity has had no negative impact to the day-to-day lives of the citizens of the UK.

 

Scotland would be able to decide fully how much of the public sector investment it wants to have. And chances are in an independent Scotland people would be voting for a government that'll do just that.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by kila

[Brighton Jambo]

6 hours ago, Norm said:

Scottish independence still sitting at over 50% Yes in the polls, Northern Ireland sitting at 42% and, most surprisingly, Wales now sitting at over 40% when it traditionally polled at the 10% level. 

 

Is the break up inevitable? What can Westminster do to make staying in the union more attractive? 

I don’t think so.  There are some who desperately want it and will never change their views and I respect that.

 

There are many who think they do and for who it’s the chance to give a big fat GIRUY to Boris and the Tories.  However when it comes the crunch and the reality of what it will mean for currency, for borders, for the economic impact etc they simply won’t go through with it.  Self preservation will kick in and the status quo will be maintained, people are ultimately massively risk adverse and that will be the deciding factor.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by Brighton Jambo

[Mysterion]

6 hours ago, Byyy The Light said:

I don't think so.  There are a hell of a lot of fence sitters (like myself) who when it comes to the crunch will stick with what they know rather than take the risk.

 

Federalism may be something worth considering that would suit more people.

 

Federalism is the first step to Scotland becoming independent IMO. It is the mechanism to allow the 4 nations to change.

 

For that reason the Tories will not allow it. 

[Mysterion]

1 minute ago, Brighton Jambo said:

However when it comes the crunch and the reality of what it will mean for currency, for borders, for the economic impact etc that simply won’t go through with it.  

 

I find the currency shouldn't be the issue blown out of all proportion, if we have to change then it'll end up going much like the way the Irish did (https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/goodbye-punt-hello-euro-how-we-changed-currency-29926179.html)

 

Borders and Economic impact - already getting a flavour of that with Brexit. 

 

I probably lean towards Indie just now, i am happy to listen to views on pros and cons but I end up trying to rationalise a lot of the concerns about financial impact because we are on a journey to experience the negative impacts of Brexit over the next decade. 

[Mysterion]

3 minutes ago, sassenach said:

 

Quite possibly. Although plenty of Tory MPs went against their party with Brexit, Johnson and Gove included. It would depend on whether there was a whip employed 

A lot of Tory MPs were ruthlessly punished by the party.

Some then left to start their own party and were voted out at the last GE. 

 

UK main parties don't want Scottish MPs who will vote against their positions.

 

 

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

However when it comes the crunch and the reality of what it will mean for currency, for borders, for the economic impact etc that simply won’t go through with it.  Self preservation will kick in and the status quo will be maintained, people are ultimately massively risk adverse and that will be the deciding factor.  

 

You would like to think so but we are in a world of social media and that influences a lot of people.

 

You only have to look on here to know that some posters constantly go to the same well and pull up the same negative stuff everytime about the UK

 

It's not a balanced view and a lot of it doen't affect them personally.

 

Dare I say they have all probably done well by being in the UK

[Bindy Badgy]

21 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Self preservation will kick in and the status quo will be maintained, people are ultimately massively risk adverse and that will be the deciding factor.  

 

That was my thought going into the EU referendum. I was wrong about that one.

[kila]

Just now, sassenach said:

The austerity policy isn't for ever though, it's just a snapshot in time.  Scotland separating from the UK would be for ever.  That's why I voted remain, because leaving the EU would be for ever, not just for now.

 

Could part of Scotland's current frustration be partly because they have stopped voting for MPs who have a chance of actually being in government?

 

Austerity is a choice, and it's no surprise to see private enterprise enjoy nice profits at the same time the public sector gets squeezed even more. Essentially the rich stealing from the poor.

 

As long as enough people in England vote Tory, it really doesn't matter what Scotland votes for. That's the problem - no self determination. And being dragged out the EU encapsulates that.

 

[NANOJAMBO]

7 minutes ago, Stokesy said:

 

That was my thought going into the EU referendum. I was wrong about that one.

I'd say that the indy debate (the usual dicks & trolls aside) on here is far more informed than the  brexit debate was in England. I'd say the average Scot is much more informed about politics in general. Frankly , in my experience, brexit appealed to the latent racism that is common in many Englishmen.  It was all about foreigners nicking their jobs/houses/hospital beds/benefits. There was never really anything in the mainstream media or TV coverage that wasn't simply that.

 

Regardless of what side you're on, I reckon the indy debate has much more informed debate. It's a debate about a referendum that has profound consequences for Scotland & the union : brexit never got near that level on intensity because a lot of people thought there were no consequences.  It was all going to be plain sailing. 

[Maroon Sailor]

4 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I'm exiting this chat gracefully now, because I've already got deeper than I'd intended and as an Englishman it's not really my debate to be part of.

 

I hope that, whatever decisions are made in the future, they turn out to be the wisest decisions made for the right reasons.

 

I will say though that I believe the UK Union is the longest lasting union of nations in history, anywhere in the world.  And if and when it does break up I believe that, uniquely in the world, it will be without bloodshed. This I think says something about the character of our respective people.

 

This is about the UK so you are part of this debate

 

 

[Byyy The Light]

55 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

Federalism is the first step to Scotland becoming independent IMO. It is the mechanism to allow the 4 nations to change.

 

For that reason the Tories will not allow it. 

 

I agree.  I would still like someone to run with it as an alternative to Independence and the SNP CyberNat Unionist bickering bullshit that rears its head.  It's near on impossible to have a decent discussion about the whole thing (anything these days!) Everyone is so entrenched, including the mainstream media.

 

I know it would never be on the ballot paper but I would at least like some of the polling to reflect it to encourage discussion.  I admit I don't know enough about how something like federalism would work but as a concept it seems to tick a lot of boxes.  

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

56 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I don’t think so.  There are some who desperately want it and will never change their views and I respect that.

 

There are many who think they do and for who it’s the chance to give a big fat GIRUY to Boris and the Tories.  However when it comes the crunch and the reality of what it will mean for currency, for borders, for the economic impact etc they simply won’t go through with it.  Self preservation will kick in and the status quo will be maintained, people are ultimately massively risk adverse and that will be the deciding factor.  

Yeah because the borders, currency and the economy aren’t a concern just now in this wonderful union 😆. 
Border will not be any different from what’s in Ireland. Currency will be just as strong as the pound to begin with. The economy will prosper as industries that help our plentiful resources flourish with investment. 
My advice to anyone who thinks Scotland and it’s people won’t be better off and more democratic is to go and do your homework, nobody who does questions independence. 

[AlphonseCapone]

4 hours ago, Barack said:

True. But every now & again you pays your money you takes your chances.

 

The scientific community in this country should be rightly lauded. The UK, and by extension the devolved governments, take credit for working together swiftly & implementing it in a time of national crisis. 

 

I'm not saying we're better together. Just sometimes, it's not too bad. On the whole though, I've accepted the fact Scotland probably is now on course to become independent. I'm comfortable with that, & that's what Democracy should be about. 

 

Great post Barack. 

 

This has been an interesting thread, bar a few posts, and would be good to read the views of more folk not deep in the politics threads on here. In fact, and I know folk might find this impossible, but be interesting to hear this discussed with less slant on specific politics. 

 

For example, one thing I'd relish in an independent Scotland is feeling like I could vote for a variety of parties and their actually being a chance of them being in Government.

 

I resent the SNP trying to own independence in the same way other other folk rightly resent them trying to own being Scottish.