Irving

[A_A wehatethehibs]

21 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

 

 

WILD GUESSWORK MAN!!!! 

 I mean to be fair the 500 quid a week thing is a guess, but it sounds reasonable. Is that not around what you’d expect for an 18 year old who’s just been on loan at Berwick Rangers??? idk 🤷‍♂️ my guess at his current market value 500k, that’s got to be on the generous side surely

 

Think something we can all agree on is, I don’t think Irving comes across as being that fussed about money, the boy just clearly wants to be playing most weeks, that’s the main thing for him, he needs at least minimum 20-30 starts a season now whether at Hearts or elsewhere. He has the head screwed on and knows the real big money comes as a result of big performances. To get those big performances you need to be playing. That thought should be on the minds of Moore and Henderson as well, when you get to age 20 you need to be at a club where you’re playing regularly. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by A_A wehatethehibs

[Last Laff]

Just now, A_A wehatethehibs said:

 I mean to be fair the 500 quid a week thing is a guess, but it sounds reasonable. Is that not around what you’d expect for an 18 year old who’s just been on loan at Berwick Rangers??? idk 🤷‍♂️ my guess at his current market value 500k, that’s got to be on the generous side surely

 

Think something we can all agree on is, I don’t think Irving comes across as being that fussed about money, the boy just clearly wants to be playing most weeks, that’s the main thing for him, he needs at least minimum 20-30 starts a season now whether at Hearts or elsewhere. He has the head screwed on and knows the real big money comes as a result of big performances. To get those big performances you need to be playing. That thought should be on the minds of Moore and Henderson as well, when you get to age 20 you need to be at a club where you’re playing regularly. 

100% mate. Completely spot on.  The money will come second for him but making a player feel wanted goes a long way of keeping someone happy. 

[Maple Leaf]

18 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

100% mate. Completely spot on.  The money will come second for him but making a player feel wanted goes a long way of keeping someone happy. 

That's true, but everyone wants to be paid fairly as well.

[Last Laff]

10 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

That's true, but everyone wants to be paid fairly as well.

Being paid fairly is 100% part of making feel them wanted and not taking the piss out of them in comparison with other players. 

[Maple Leaf]

11 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Being paid fairly is 100% part of making feel them wanted and not taking the piss out of them in comparison with other players. 

[Rudy T]

The problem we have is if an English side wants to take a punt on him, we'll get the development fee and that's it. He can go to some backwater village team and still get 10k a week 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

21 hours ago, Last Laff said:

Can Olly Lee?

Can Berra? 😂

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, Last Laff said:

Being paid fairly is 100% part of making feel them wanted and not taking the piss out of them in comparison with other players. 

Did he fell the piss was taken out of him when he signed his deal ? 

[Last Laff]

2 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Did he fell the piss was taken out of him when he signed his deal ? 

 

A year and a half back, probably not.

 

Since then we've signed Damour on a 4 year deal, Jamie Walker, Glen Whelan,  Marcel Langer, Meshino, that turkish boy who was guff along with Andy Halliday, recalled Lee and brought in Frear and Roberts.

 

Don't you think he should be a mid to high wage range bracket in comparison to that shower? 

[Last Laff]

39 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

Can Berra? 😂

 

Game of his career on Sunday mate  

[JamboAl]

21 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

 

A year and a half back, probably not.

 

Since then we've signed Damour on a 4 year deal, Jamie Walker, Glen Whelan,  Marcel Langer, Meshino, that turkish boy who was guff along with Andy Halliday, recalled Lee and brought in Frear and Roberts.

 

Don't you think he should be a mid to high wage range bracket in comparison to that shower? 

How do you know he isn't?  Or that any new offer exceeds what they get?

Do you know how much Damour etc receive?

What are their respective salaries?

You appear to be making an argument born out of your constant negative beliefs.

Unless you know the figures, give it a rest.

 

PS>  Before you ask I don't know the figures either but I'm not the one making not so veiled accusations.

Edited December 14, 2020 by JamboAl

[Last Laff]

4 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

How do you know he isn't?  Or that any new offer exceeds what they get?

Do you know how much Damour etc receive?

What are their respective salaries?

You appear to be making an argument born out of your constant negative beliefs.

Unless you know the figures, give it a rest.

 

PS>  Before you ask I don't the figures either but I'm not the one making not so veiled accusations.

 

I can post all I like without your constant daft questions, Al.

 

How I know a young 19 year old player isn't on as much money as some of the journeymen shite that's came in?  Are you really that thick?

 

I have said already I hope he's offered a deal to reflect the money the majority of they players receive.

 

What accusation have I made also?  All I've said is AI's agent is quite entitled to list the wages of players in midfield and get similar amounts!  He's been offered nothing yet but if he doesn't get offered similarly then I would understand why he would look at other options.

 

Don't you agree?  Irving should be on as much as Damour or Walker?  or at least close to it.  

Edited December 14, 2020 by Last Laff

[alwaysthereinspirit]

1 hour ago, Last Laff said:

Being paid fairly is 100% part of making feel them wanted and not taking the piss out of them in comparison with other players. 

So do you have those numbers yet for the other players.

[Last Laff]

5 minutes ago, alwaysthereinspirit said:

So do you have those numbers yet for the other players.

 

In what respect does that matter in comparison with a new contract for arguably our biggest asset and best midfielder?   

 

Should he not have a wage compared to them or do you ludicrously believe his contract last summer was as good as Damour and Walkers? 

[JamboAl]

23 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

 

I can post all I like without your constant daft questions, Al.

And I can post to illustrate how stupid your contributions are

How I know a young 19 year old player isn't on as much money as some of the journeymen shite that's came in?  Are you really that thick?

Definitely not as thick as you.  YOU DON'T KNOW!

I have said already I hope he's offered a deal to reflect the money the majority of they players receive.

So does everyone else but you are distinctly suspicious that he won't.  Absolute negative nonsense in the absence of reason.

What accusation have I made also?  All I've said is AI's agent is quite entitled to list the wages of players in midfield and get similar amounts!  He's been offered nothing yet but if he doesn't get offered similarly then I would understand why he would look at other options.

You utter some silly crap.  Of course he will likely look at other options if he doesn't get a suitable deal - he'd be mad not to and we would have a dissatisfied player on our hands.  The accusation you have made is that you don't think he'll get as much as Damour etc which is crazy because, as you admit, he's been offered nothing yer.  So why are you getting your knickers in a twist before he does.  Any delay may be due him or his agent.

Don't you agree?  Irving should be on as much as Damour or Walker?  or at least close to it.  

I don't know what Damour or Walker receive or how their wage is structured (may include special provisions) so I cannot answer.  Can you enlighten me on these details, please.

Edited December 14, 2020 by JamboAl

[HMFC 86]

6 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I don't know what Damour or Walker receive or how their wage is structured (may include special provisions) so I cannot answer.  Can you enlighten me on these details, please.

still asking questions, questions, questions!!?? That and posting absolute shite

[JamboAl]

16 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

 

In what respect does that matter in comparison with a new contract for arguably our biggest asset and best midfielder?   

 

Should he not have a wage compared to them or do you ludicrously believe his contract last summer was as good as Damour and Walkers? 

The answer to that is yes and no.

At the last AGM AB said she was changing (new) contracts to a lower basic with higher bonuses rather rhan a higher basic with lower bonuses.  Most fans seemed to agree with this because of past poor results.

She cannot change the contracts of Damout and Walker mid term so it could well be that Irving, and anyone else following will have lower basics but the opportunity of a much higher wage if we keep winning.  Do you now think this is wrong and what should happen?

[Last Laff]

5 minutes ago, HMFC 86 said:

still asking questions, questions, questions!!?? That and posting absolute shite

 

Thank goodness someone else notices.

 

Al, it's 6 days from the Scottish Cup final.  Ram your unloaded questions when you haven't a clue yourself nor reply to anything anyone asks you.  Have a lovely week. 

[Last Laff]

15 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I don't know what Damour or Walker receive or how their wage is structured (may include special provisions) so I cannot answer.  Can you enlighten me on these details, please.

 

God sakes man  

[JamboAl]

7 minutes ago, HMFC 86 said:

still asking questions, questions, questions!!?? That and posting absolute shite

Just seeking clarity. You are the master of shite with little contribution to the actual debate.

[OTT]

There really feels like an unwillingness in Scottish football to pay youngsters decent money. The likes of Irving, Hickey, Paterson, Walker have been among our best. Obviously in a lot of cases once the youngsters agent starts putting options in front of them then all they see is pound signs. Fact is, Andy Irving is adding more to the team than Damour, why do we continually look for an experienced player when the level we play at isn't great and invariably the experienced player is a huddie stealing a wage? 

 

I really think we need to break out of this oldschool mentality that a young player doesn't deserve first team wages until they've paid their dues. If we want to have any hope of keeping young players then we need to be competitive and make sure that if they're going down South its because thats where they want to go, not because we've been unwilling to offer a fair deal. (I'm aware there is a limit, and obviously clubs in the top half Championship/entire EPL will outbid us easily if they want a player badly enough). 

 

Football has changed, and there is a lot more player power. Irving isn't showing signs of regressing. I'd have absolutely no problems with us offering him a deal comparable to Halliday or Damour. He's in the first team, he's playing like a seasoned pro and will continue to grow and develop as the experience comes. 

[JamboAl]

2 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

 

God sakes man  

Run away.  Sidestep, sidestep, avoid, avoid.

Just answer the questions or withdraw your negative implications.

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, OTT said:

There really feels like an unwillingness in Scottish football to pay youngsters decent money. The likes of Irving, Hickey, Paterson, Walker have been among our best. Obviously in a lot of cases once the youngsters agent starts putting options in front of them then all they see is pound signs. Fact is, Andy Irving is adding more to the team than Damour, why do we continually look for an experienced player when the level we play at isn't great and invariably the experienced player is a huddie stealing a wage? 

 

I really think we need to break out of this oldschool mentality that a young player doesn't deserve first team wages until they've paid their dues. If we want to have any hope of keeping young players then we need to be competitive and make sure that if they're going down South its because thats where they want to go, not because we've been unwilling to offer a fair deal. (I'm aware there is a limit, and obviously clubs in the top half Championship/entire EPL will outbid us easily if they want a player badly enough). 

 

Football has changed, and there is a lot more player power. Irving isn't showing signs of regressing. I'd have absolutely no problems with us offering him a deal comparable to Halliday or Damour. He's in the first team, he's playing like a seasoned pro and will continue to grow and develop as the experience comes. 

When we signed Damour he came from a club that had just been in the English Premiership and he had significant experience playing in the English Championship. I would expect someone with that on their CV to get more money than Irvine or most/any other young players at Hearts. Shame he hasn’t shown much value to date. 
 

Ultimately, if the club offers Irvine a new contract it will be on the basis of what the club can afford and what they think he is worth. If he can get better elsewhere and fancies the move then good luck to him. 

[OTT]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

When we signed Damour he came from a club that had just been in the English Premiership and he had significant experience playing in the English Championship. I would expect someone with that on their CV to get more money than Irvine or most/any other young players at Hearts. Shame he hasn’t shown much value to date. 
 

Ultimately, if the club offers Irvine a new contract it will be on the basis of what the club can afford and what they think he is worth. If he can get better elsewhere and fancies the move then good luck to him. 

 

I don't disagree, it just seems disappointing that a lot of players who are taking that step here from such a high level seem to disappoint a lot. I'd rather we focused in on trying to champion the promising young players that we do have. I really don't want us in a position where we're lowballing them whilst we've got total wastes of cash on excellent money like Damour. 

 

No ones got a crystal ball, its just as conceivable that god forbid, you give a youngster one of these big contracts and they tear something and the potential is gone. My preference is though to back the kids. They're the ones that entertain. It seems like we've had an absolutely contemptuous attitude to money recently. When you have a player like Irving who is looking like one of our best midfielders already, then its time to back the laddie and get a deal over the line which puts him into the first team bracket wage wise in respect to his contribution. If he rejects it, then so be it. But if age is a limiting factor in offering a promising player a good offer then thats not acceptable to me. 

 

We play in a league with no money. Our model should be built around pushing kids as far as we can supported with guys coming to the end of their careers (Gordon, Berra, Cowie, Naismith types), talented lower league players (Stevenson/Webster types) and guys from poorer leagues who we've done our homework on (Haring for example). I know its not an exact science and we can probably list one Naismith for ever Damour, but the lack of sense with the money we've chucked about since we got promoted has been offensive. 

[jr ewing]

18 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

When we signed Damour he came from a club that had just been in the English Premiership and he had significant experience playing in the English Championship. I would expect someone with that on their CV to get more money than Irvine or most/any other young players at Hearts. Shame he hasn’t shown much value to date. 
 

Ultimately, if the club offers Irvine a new contract it will be on the basis of what the club can afford and what they think he is worth. If he can get better elsewhere and fancies the move then good luck to him. 

We also had a left back who played in the World cup. Go figure. 

[jr ewing]

33 minutes ago, OTT said:

There really feels like an unwillingness in Scottish football to pay youngsters decent money. The likes of Irving, Hickey, Paterson, Walker have been among our best. Obviously in a lot of cases once the youngsters agent starts putting options in front of them then all they see is pound signs. Fact is, Andy Irving is adding more to the team than Damour, why do we continually look for an experienced player when the level we play at isn't great and invariably the experienced player is a huddie stealing a wage? 

 

I really think we need to break out of this oldschool mentality that a young player doesn't deserve first team wages until they've paid their dues. If we want to have any hope of keeping young players then we need to be competitive and make sure that if they're going down South its because thats where they want to go, not because we've been unwilling to offer a fair deal. (I'm aware there is a limit, and obviously clubs in the top half Championship/entire EPL will outbid us easily if they want a player badly enough). 

 

Football has changed, and there is a lot more player power. Irving isn't showing signs of regressing. I'd have absolutely no problems with us offering him a deal comparable to Halliday or Damour. He's in the first team, he's playing like a seasoned pro and will continue to grow and develop as the experience comes. 

Remember Jaimie Mole and Callum Elliott? 5 years wow. 

[Last Laff]

Just now, jr ewing said:

Remember Jaimie Mole and Callum Elliott? 5 years wow. 

Remember Craig Gordon and Callum Paterson? 

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

We also had a left back who played in the World cup. Go figure. 

So I was led to believe. 

[jr ewing]

4 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Remember Craig Gordon and Callum Paterson? 

 

[jr ewing]

4 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Remember Craig Gordon and Callum Paterson? 

Call it a draw. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Funny, I don't remember the calls to give Irving a new long bumper deal last season. If we did that with every young player who shows a bit of form we'd end up with a lot of Gordon Smiths and Gary Glens on our hands (remember when Glen was the most natural finisher to come through since Robbo?)

 

There's a certain amount of luck when it comes to tying up the better players at the right time because they all seem to develop at different speeds. Every club has that challenge. Aberdeen lost Ryan Fraser very young, D Utd lost Scott Allan, even Celtic and Rangers have lost some they probably wish they'd tied down but didn't. Gilmour for example.

 

With foreign clubs seemingly willing to take a chance on young Scots its understandable for our best young players to want to keep their options open. We are where we are in the food chain unfortunately. Agents play a big part in this too, the annoying *******s.

Edited December 14, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Wee Mikey]

43 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

So I was led to believe. 

He was quite clearly a doppleganger.

[Last Laff]

48 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Call it a draw. 

👍🥃

[Wee Mikey]

2 hours ago, Last Laff said:

👍🥃

Phew! I was on my second supper. 🤭

[Last Laff]

43 minutes ago, Wee Mikey said:

Phew! I was on my second supper. 🤭

It’s cup final week.  Totally allowed 👌

[Ari Gold]

11 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

Funny, I don't remember the calls to give Irving a new long bumper deal last season. If we did that with every young player who shows a bit of form we'd end up with a lot of Gordon Smiths and Gary Glens on our hands (remember when Glen was the most natural finisher to come through since Robbo?)

 

There's a certain amount of luck when it comes to tying up the better players at the right time because they all seem to develop at different speeds. Every club has that challenge. Aberdeen lost Ryan Fraser very young, D Utd lost Scott Allan, even Celtic and Rangers have lost some they probably wish they'd tied down but didn't. Gilmour for example.

 

With foreign clubs seemingly willing to take a chance on young Scots its understandable for our best young players to want to keep their options open. We are where we are in the food chain unfortunately. Agents play a big part in this too, the annoying *******s.

 

It doesn't matter whether fans wanted Irving to get a contract last season or not. It's up to the club to decide who they think will potentially play in the first team for 2/3/4 years then move on for decent money. 

 

We also have a habit of keeping young players who are never going to be good enough around the club for a few more years than they should be. 

 

If we don't have someone in the club that can do this adequately then something needs to change. Hopefully Joe Savage is more competent. (Assuming this will be part of his role) 

[wavydavy]

1 hour ago, Ari Gold said:

 

It doesn't matter whether fans wanted Irving to get a contract last season or not. It's up to the club to decide who they think will potentially play in the first team for 2/3/4 years then move on for decent money. 

 

We also have a habit of keeping young players who are never going to be good enough around the club for a few more years than they should be. 

 

If we don't have someone in the club that can do this adequately then something needs to change. Hopefully Joe Savage is more competent. (Assuming this will be part of his role) 

 

I think Joe's role is more about recruitment rather than who stays unless of course he gets the nod from Robbie that he wants a player moved on.

 

Just as an aside nice to read that JJ has agreed to another six months at the club to help the new guy settle in as well as assist AB and Robbie when required.

[wavydavy]

14 hours ago, davemclaren said:

When we signed Damour he came from a club that had just been in the English Premiership and he had significant experience playing in the English Championship. I would expect someone with that on their CV to get more money than Irvine or most/any other young players at Hearts. Shame he hasn’t shown much value to date. 
 

Ultimately, if the club offers Irvine a new contract it will be on the basis of what the club can afford and what they think he is worth. If he can get better elsewhere and fancies the move then good luck to him. 

 

Hardly ideal comparison's though Dave. Irving has been at the club a long time for a young guy and I think Robbie and other will know a fair bit about his character and attitude etc as well as his capabilities.

 

I am not so sure the same could be said about Loic Damour.

 

He had a half decent season when the club were flying in the English Championship and we give him a four year deal after he has been out of the team for a year.

 

He has questionable enthusiasm to want to play and we don't even know if he is still "injured" as he is never mentioned by any of the coaches so clearly not in their plans.

 

I would imiagine that one of Joe Savage first jobs will be to get him out the door asap paving the way for the next couple of signings.

[JamboAl]

55 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Hardly ideal comparison's though Dave. Irving has been at the club a long time for a young guy and I think Robbie and other will know a fair bit about his character and attitude etc as well as his capabilities.

 

I am not so sure the same could be said about Loic Damour.

 

He had a half decent season when the club were flying in the English Championship and we give him a four year deal after he has been out of the team for a year.

 

He has questionable enthusiasm to want to play and we don't even know if he is still "injured" as he is never mentioned by any of the coaches so clearly not in their plans.

 

I would imiagine that one of Joe Savage first jobs will be to get him out the door asap paving the way for the next couple of signings.

With hindsight most people will agree but when we signed him it looked a good acquisition.  He had played in the EPL and in the English Championship and was not at an age where you could say he was looking for a last decent pay day.  I think, like may others eg Whelan, he undervalued by the Scottish game probably thinking it would be a dawdle and at least twice eatly doors he got caught in possession leading to goals.  Whether that dented his confidence or whether he is naturally slow and lazy I don't know.  Maybe his long absence will have given him time to contemplate but as things stand I cannot see anyone taking him, bar for a short term loan.

[Lfhearts]

14 hours ago, jr ewing said:

Remember Jaimie Mole and Callum Elliott? 5 years wow. 

Callum Elliott got hammered by injuries, when on song he was a great player. When a youth was best prospect by far.

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 hour ago, Lfhearts said:

Callum Elliott got hammered by injuries, when on song he was a great player. When a youth was best prospect by far.

By Callum Elliott do you mean John Travolta?

[Gimme an H...]

3 hours ago, Lfhearts said:

Callum Elliott got hammered by injuries, when on song he was a great player. When a youth was best prospect by far.

 

Callum Elliott was crap at first team level.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

33 minutes ago, Gimme an H... said:

 

Callum Elliott was crap at first team level.

 

He was very good when he really broke through in 05/06 at 18 or so. One of the better young players in the country at that time. Suffered through all the manager changes and all that and always seemed to be a confidence player so when it went wrong he couldn't get it back.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

6 hours ago, Ari Gold said:

 

It doesn't matter whether fans wanted Irving to get a contract last season or not. It's up to the club to decide who they think will potentially play in the first team for 2/3/4 years then move on for decent money. 

 

We also have a habit of keeping young players who are never going to be good enough around the club for a few more years than they should be. 

 

If we don't have someone in the club that can do this adequately then something needs to change. Hopefully Joe Savage is more competent. (Assuming this will be part of his role) 

 

If only it was that easy

[Diego10]

20 hours ago, Last Laff said:

Remember Craig Gordon and Callum Paterson? 

Remember Marco Pelosi?

[Last Laff]

7 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

Remember Marco Pelosi?

Aye I played against him loads of times and he was at my cousins wedding last year, he went to St Tams with him.  Good lad. 

[Diego10]

5 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Aye I played against him loads of times and he was at my cousins wedding last year, he went to St Tams with him.  Good lad. 

He is but 5 year, grand a week,  contracts for folk who never get near first team level is a route we can't go back down

[upgotheheads]

1 hour ago, Gimme an H... said:

 

Callum Elliott was crap at first team level.

 

1 hour ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

He was very good when he really broke through in 05/06 at 18 or so. One of the better young players in the country at that time. Suffered through all the manager changes and all that and always seemed to be a confidence player so when it went wrong he couldn't get it back.

 

Calum had some of the worst luck injury-wise that I have seen in all the time I have watched Hearts. Every time he got near to establish himself he picked up an injury that would set him back months. The last one was some kind of ulcer in the knee joint I think, and he never really recovered.

 

[upgotheheads]

3 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

He is but 5 year, grand a week,  contracts for folk who never get near first team level is a route we can't go back down

 

And failing to get good players signed up for a decent time is the same. Irving's form is not a flash in the pan.  Three grand a week and a 4 or 5 year contract would not be a bad gamble. I'm betting that we have several players on more that.

[Last Laff]

15 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

He is but 5 year, grand a week,  contracts for folk who never get near first team level is a route we can't go back down

Irvings in the first team though?