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kingantti1874
3 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Irving isn't good enough for Serie A? But his mate Hickey is? How do we know that Irving like Hickey just now, won't flourish in a team that offers better coaching and a better standard of players. 

 

Guy was one of the positives we had last season, bossed the game against Aberdeen at home, who had Lewis Ferguson in midfield. 

 

Ferguson has a ton of clubs wanting him, including Rangers. 

 

 


no doubt about the talent.. but can count the amount of times he’s demonstrated it on one hand sadly.. 

he has enough ability that we shouldn’t even question his place in the team. 
 

 

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6 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

We should offer him a four year deal on the same money as we are paying Damour and stop playing Lee and Halliday in front on him.

 

Its mad that we won’t gamble on our young players who are only going to get better but will gamble on someone with a YouTube video.

 

Mad is the word.  Doing the same again and again is the definition of the word and that's what is most mad about it all.

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Honestly the amount of shite people talk man, Irving is class put him in the right team, beside a player like Haring. 

 

And you will see the player he can be. 

 

Lad wouldn't look out of place in some English Championships teams. 

 

And he's 20 years old play fecking youth man. 

 

Get Olly To ****

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1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Honestly the amount of shite people talk man, Irving is class put him in the right team, beside a player like Haring. 

 

And you will see the player he can be. 

 

Lad wouldn't look out of place in some English Championships teams. 

 

And he's 20 years old play fecking youth man. 

 

Get Olly To ****

You must be his agent? 😄

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1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

You must be his agent? 😄

No different to you dave, just a passionate supporter that wants to see his club, be at it's very best. 

 

Do i think Irving offers a lot to the team? Absolutely. 

 

I think being down in the championship gives us, a great chance to bring through youth, that in years to come will be more than able, to hold there own in the top division once we are promoted. 

 

We seem to get more out of our youth players, than some first team players that are on very good wages. 

 

With our training facilities and stadium, we can attract very good players to our club, mixed with a blend of youth coming through the ranks. 

 

This club has so much potential Dave, Austin though wasn't always right, was when he said this club should be up there challenging, both the old firm and in the group stages of the Europa league. 

 

I feel us as supporters have done our part, and continue to play our part. 

 

And just don't want to lose a player that i can see, has a incredible amount of potential. 

 

And i feel if we can tie him down on a contract we will receive a fee for him. 

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If this is  a case of tying down a 20yr old  player who can pass a ball without needing to look at his feet, I'm all for it. He looks to me like a genuine FOOTBALLER.

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28 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

No different to you dave, just a passionate supporter that wants to see his club, be at it's very best. 

 

Do i think Irving offers a lot to the team? Absolutely. 

 

I think being down in the championship gives us, a great chance to bring through youth, that in years to come will be more than able, to hold there own in the top division once we are promoted. 

 

We seem to get more out of our youth players, than some first team players that are on very good wages. 

 

With our training facilities and stadium, we can attract very good players to our club, mixed with a blend of youth coming through the ranks. 

 

This club has so much potential Dave, Austin though wasn't always right, was when he said this club should be up there challenging, both the old firm and in the group stages of the Europa league. 

 

I feel us as supporters have done our part, and continue to play our part. 

 

And just don't want to lose a player that i can see, has a incredible amount of potential. 

 

And i feel if we can tie him down on a contract we will receive a fee for him. 

I certainly think we should try and keep him but I’m not at the stage of thinking we should build the team around him. 

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Glamorgan Jambo

Was odd to me that Stendel dropped him first of all and he only worked his way into the team after a few poor results. And even odder that pretty much the same sequence has repeated itself under Robbie.

 

To my untrained eye he offers something very different from our other midfielders. I hope we can get this sorted.

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29 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I certainly think we should try and keep him but I’m not at the stage of thinking we should build the team around him. 

I'm a fan of Irving and, used correctly, could be a real asset to the team. But he has to have the right players around him to accentuate his positive assets and minimise his deficits. I wouldn't go so far as to build the team around him but I would try to get the best out of him by employing him in a system he can flourish (eg 4-2-3-1 as opposed to 4-4-2 for instance) and getting "legs" around him (Haring) to compensate for his lack of awareness in spotting players running behind him.

Let's give him a run in the team with the right guys alongside him to see if he flourishes.

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Byyy The Light
1 hour ago, Bongo 1874 said:

No different to you dave, just a passionate supporter that wants to see his club, be at it's very best. 

 

Do i think Irving offers a lot to the team? Absolutely. 

 

I think being down in the championship gives us, a great chance to bring through youth, that in years to come will be more than able, to hold there own in the top division once we are promoted. 

 

We seem to get more out of our youth players, than some first team players that are on very good wages. 

 

With our training facilities and stadium, we can attract very good players to our club, mixed with a blend of youth coming through the ranks. 

 

This club has so much potential Dave, Austin though wasn't always right, was when he said this club should be up there challenging, both the old firm and in the group stages of the Europa league. 

 

I feel us as supporters have done our part, and continue to play our part. 

 

And just don't want to lose a player that i can see, has a incredible amount of potential. 

 

And i feel if we can tie him down on a contract we will receive a fee for him. 


Good post. Agree with you

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43 minutes ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

Was odd to me that Stendel dropped him first of all and he only worked his way into the team after a few poor results. And even odder that pretty much the same sequence has repeated itself under Robbie.

 

To my untrained eye he offers something very different from our other midfielders. I hope we can get this sorted.

 

Stendel came in to a complete and utter mess and quite rightly went with the most experienced players he had who ran the dressing room.  Guys like Berra, Whelan and Maclean he hardly knew the scottish game and was the right thing to do.  He quickly realized that was completely incorrect and punted the three of them and then trusted the youngsters a lot more.  

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26 minutes ago, NotTheHoople said:

I'm a fan of Irving and, used correctly, could be a real asset to the team. But he has to have the right players around him to accentuate his positive assets and minimise his deficits. I wouldn't go so far as to build the team around him but I would try to get the best out of him by employing him in a system he can flourish (eg 4-2-3-1 as opposed to 4-4-2 for instance) and getting "legs" around him (Haring) to compensate for his lack of awareness in spotting players running behind him.

Let's give him a run in the team with the right guys alongside him to see if he flourishes.

 

If teams, like many are saying are completely parking the bus then we don't need to compensate for players running in behind him.  Players only learn by playing and need a run of consistent games trusted in a position.

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18 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

 

Stendel came in to a complete and utter mess and quite rightly went with the most experienced players he had who ran the dressing room.  Guys like Berra, Whelan and Maclean he hardly knew the scottish game and was the right thing to do.  He quickly realized that was completely incorrect and punted the three of them and then trusted the youngsters a lot more.  

Spot on 👍

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2 hours ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Honestly the amount of shite people talk man, Irving is class put him in the right team, beside a player like Haring. 

 

And you will see the player he can be. 

 

Lad wouldn't look out of place in some English Championships teams. 

 

And he's 20 years old play fecking youth man. 

 

Get Olly To ****

Yep. 

 

IMO Irving and Haring are longterm starters. I'd like to see us settle on 4-3-3 so I think if we could have Haring holding, Irving playmaker then a Hartley/Cameron type on the right of that three would give us a quality balance in midfield. 

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I don't understand why guys like Irving and Moore aren't getting a chance this season. This is the ideal opportunity to give them a run in the team and see what they've got. 

 

You couldn't really blame Irving if he doesn't sign a new deal. If he's not getting a game in the championship, what chance does he have if we go up. 

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5 hours ago, Thomaso said:


In your expert opinion.....

I don’t claim to be an expert. I do have an opinion though. That’s what we’re here for I’d have thought ? 

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Niemi’s gloves
1 hour ago, Paulp74 said:

I don't understand why guys like Irving and Moore aren't getting a chance this season. This is the ideal opportunity to give them a run in the team and see what they've got. 

 

You couldn't really blame Irving if he doesn't sign a new deal. If he's not getting a game in the championship, what chance does he have if we go up. 


It’s not really true that Irving isn’t getting a chance this season. Of our twelve games, he was unavailable for two due to being away with the Scotland U-21s. Of the remaining 10, he’s started 4, was a sub in 4 and an unused sub once. The only one of these games when he wasn’t in the match day squad was home to Alloa - maybe he wasn’t fully fit for that one.

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7 hours ago, Bongo 1874 said:

No different to you dave, just a passionate supporter that wants to see his club, be at it's very best. 

 

Do i think Irving offers a lot to the team? Absolutely. 

 

I think being down in the championship gives us, a great chance to bring through youth, that in years to come will be more than able, to hold there own in the top division once we are promoted. 

 

We seem to get more out of our youth players, than some first team players that are on very good wages. 

 

With our training facilities and stadium, we can attract very good players to our club, mixed with a blend of youth coming through the ranks. 

 

This club has so much potential Dave, Austin though wasn't always right, was when he said this club should be up there challenging, both the old firm and in the group stages of the Europa league. 

 

I feel us as supporters have done our part, and continue to play our part. 

 

And just don't want to lose a player that i can see, has a incredible amount of potential. 

 

And i feel if we can tie him down on a contract we will receive a fee for him. 

 
100% nail on the head! 

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Ainsley Harriott
12 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

The other side of that coin is that he wasn’t good enough to get ahead of them for a regular place in the team.

I often think though when a manager brings a player in he is inclined to justify doing so by playing them, often to the detriment of younger players.

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8 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

I like the look of him but I do question myself when I think why managers and coaches do not.

That’s almost certainly because the managers see them every day and we don’t. It’s a similar story with a number of the other young ‘stars’ we supposedly have. There is a lot more to being a footballer at that age than just what goes on once on the pitch. We have had a number out on loan in recent years, particularly the ones who have had a taste of first team football, to lower league clubs and yet most of them fail to hold down a starting place. Cochrane and McDonald at Dunfermline, Smith currently at Arbroath, etc. The only one in recent times to make a go of their dev loans has been Morrison at Stirling Albion. 

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A_A wehatethehibs
9 hours ago, Paulp74 said:

I don't understand why guys like Irving and Moore aren't getting a chance this season. This is the ideal opportunity to give them a run in the team and see what they've got. 

 

You couldn't really blame Irving if he doesn't sign a new deal. If he's not getting a game in the championship, what chance does he have if we go up. 


Irving is getting a chance he’s played in 6 of our 11 competitive games and is being offered a new contract by the club as we speak. To me I think it’s likely to be a 3 year deal bringing him in line with the mid level wage bracket of first team players, which is an incredible offer for a young player a clear indication he is in the immediate and long term plans, with an option to extend the deal and bring him into the top wage bracket if his current improvement continues next season and he goes on to win awards, fire us forward to Europe and achieve international recognition which are the goals for Hearts players which at present Andy Irving has not yet achieved.

 

Moore, 2 years older at 22, is not at the same quality level as Irving. No idea why Moore and Henderson always seem to get brought up in the same conversations as Irving. He is a level above them 2 so they’re not really relevant in this discussion. Wouldn’t have been fussed if the 2 of them had both been released in the summer but I suppose may do a job at championship level so that’s why they’ve been kept on. They are Brad mackay / Kevin mchattie level whereas Irving I would say is the same level as the younger Jamie Walker when he was playing in this division, maybe not quite as good as Paterson but with improvements this season he can get there. 

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4 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:


Irving is getting a chance he’s played in 6 of our 11 competitive games and is being offered a new contract by the club as we speak. To me I think it’s likely to be a 3 year deal bringing him in line with the mid level wage bracket of first team players, which is an incredible offer for a young player a clear indication he is in the immediate and long term plans, with an option to extend the deal and bring him into the top wage bracket if his current improvement continues next season and he goes on to win awards, fire us forward to Europe and achieve international recognition which are the goals for Hearts players which at present Andy Irving has not yet achieved.

 

Moore, 2 years older at 22, is not at the same quality level as Irving. No idea why Moore and Henderson always seem to get brought up in the same conversations as Irving. He is a level above them 2 so they’re not really relevant in this discussion. Wouldn’t have been fussed if the 2 of them had both been released in the summer but I suppose may do a job at championship level so that’s why they’ve been kept on. They are Brad mackay / Kevin mchattie level whereas Irving I would say is the same level as the younger Jamie Walker when he was playing in this division, maybe not quite as good as Paterson but with improvements this season he can get there. 

I felt Moore was one of the few positives last season. This is the season to give these young lads a chance to see what they can do.

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14 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

I like the look of him but I do question myself when I think why managers and coaches do not.

I think there's an element of it being a results-based business. Managers have to weigh the risk of playing an inexperienced player instead of a known quantity.

 

In some cases, the manager is forced into playing a younger player due to circumstance (injuries and/or suspension - as was the case with Hickey when he first broke into the first team); but I'd imagine the decision is more difficult to make when there is already experienced competition for that particular position. 

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50 minutes ago, Paulp74 said:

I felt Moore was one of the few positives last season. This is the season to give these young lads a chance to see what they can do.

Moore is better than Frear & Roberts yet he is ignored probably because it was Robbie who brought these 2 in. 

Edited by mitch41
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31 minutes ago, Trajan said:

I think there's an element of it being a results-based business. Managers have to weigh the risk of playing an inexperienced player instead of a known quantity.

 

In some cases, the manager is forced into playing a younger player due to circumstance (injuries and/or suspension - as was the case with Hickey when he first broke into the first team); but I'd imagine the decision is more difficult to make when there is already experienced competition for that particular position. 

Far too sensible for this thread mate, he is either the next Messi or he is *****, there is nothing in between.

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21 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Moore is better than Frear & Roberts yet he is ignored probably because it was Robbie who brought these 2 in. 

This

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40 minutes ago, Trajan said:

I think there's an element of it being a results-based business. Managers have to weigh the risk of playing an inexperienced player instead of a known quantity.

 

In some cases, the manager is forced into playing a younger player due to circumstance (injuries and/or suspension - as was the case with Hickey when he first broke into the first team); but I'd imagine the decision is more difficult to make when there is already experienced competition for that particular position. 

True in alot of cases but I’d have thought the environment to take a wee chance on a developing player would be the championship.  You need to see what these lads can give over a series of matches, in different scenarios, to see how they respond.  One or two matches here or there is pointless. 
 

Past managers we had knew how to integrate young players while limiting the potential damage to the overall performance of the team, and that was in the SPL. 

Irving needs to learn the rigours of midfield within different types of games. Only playing will do that. 


 

 

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13 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

True in alot of cases but I’d have thought the environment to take a wee chance on a developing player would be the championship.  You need to see what these lads can give over a series of matches, in different scenarios, to see how they respond.  One or two matches here or there is pointless. 
 

Past managers we had knew how to integrate young players while limiting the potential damage to the overall performance of the team, and that was in the SPL. 

Irving needs to learn the rigours of midfield within different types of games. Only playing will do that. 


 

 

I agree entirely. If we had remained in the SPFL, we would expect the players we've loaned out to do well in the Championship (if they're to have any realistic chance of eventually making it into the Hearts first team). So seeing as where we are, why not give these players the chance to play and develop together at their own club? 

 

I can only guess that Neilson, knowing full well the importance of making it out of the Championship first time, has intended to field a strong and experienced team to start the season, so as to build up a sizable lead at the top, and give the younger guys their chance when there's a bit of a cushion. 

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29 minutes ago, Trajan said:

I agree entirely. If we had remained in the SPFL, we would expect the players we've loaned out to do well in the Championship (if they're to have any realistic chance of eventually making it into the Hearts first team). So seeing as where we are, why not give these players the chance to play and develop together at their own club? 

 

I can only guess that Neilson, knowing full well the importance of making it out of the Championship first time, has intended to field a strong and experienced team to start the season, so as to build up a sizable lead at the top, and give the younger guys their chance when there's a bit of a cushion. 

👍🏻

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1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

Moore is better than Frear & Roberts yet he is ignored probably because it was Robbie who brought these 2 in. 

Spot on. I don't understand why we brought those two in. A waste of 2 wages, when we have better in the youth team. 

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2 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Moore is better than Frear & Roberts yet he is ignored probably because it was Robbie who brought these 2 in. 

Would certainly look bad.

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3 hours ago, Jambo92 said:

 

Reading between the lines it looks like another Sam Nicholson contract situation developing.

 

When Nicholson got a 4 year contract? 

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Irving is one of our promising young players and we need to get him signed to a mutually acceptable contract as soon as possible.

 

We've seen what he can do, and that is to add an addition threat in a team that is often plodding and predictable.  He usually passes the ball forward, which is a rare quality for us!

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6 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

When Nicholson got a 4 year contract? 

 

Nope the one when Nicholson thought he was better than he was and Hearts thought he was worse than he was. Ended up in a saga that neither party came out pretty.

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8 hours ago, Paulp74 said:

Spot on. I don't understand why we brought those two in. A waste of 2 wages, when we have better in the youth team. 

I totally understand why he brought in 2 wingers but these two haven't fitted the bill unless they're hiding their talent until cup final day.

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Guest ToqueJambo
On 07/12/2020 at 12:36, Bongo 1874 said:

Irving isn't good enough for Serie A? But his mate Hickey is? How do we know that Irving like Hickey just now, won't flourish in a team that offers better coaching and a better standard of players. 

 

Guy was one of the positives we had last season, bossed the game against Aberdeen at home, who had Lewis Ferguson in midfield. 

 

Ferguson has a ton of clubs wanting him, including Rangers. 

 

 

 

We'll find out when there is a bidding war between Bayern, Celtic and Bologna for Irving I suppose. I think Irving is terrific but he's done nothing to prove he can play at the level Hickey is now playing at. Hickey had proven that with us within fewer games than Irving has had. He didn't suddenly turn into a better player at Bologna - he already was that player. Not knocking Irving as he's my favourite player in the squad right now, I hope he's first choice alongside Haring and we have him for a very long time. 

 

Edited by ToqueJambo
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Guest ToqueJambo
On 07/12/2020 at 12:37, Last Laff said:

 

Somehow mostly Stendell's fault even though he wasn't backed in the transfer market at all in comparison with Robbie, Cathro and last but not least the boy who was in charge of wasting absolute millions on utter shite leading to bottom six and relegation battles instead of Europe.

 

Aye, I know DS took us from joint bottom to bottom under someone else's side after taking ages to be appointed and having no backroom staff originally while Levein still kicked about taking a wage. Daly and Macphee hanging about like leeches too.  Stendel I'm sure had to pay part of his assistants wages ffs :lol: 

 

Ironically, given your obsession with him and given that this is a discussion about not giving players like Irving a chance, of all the managers you mention Levein is the one who has shown most faith in Irving. He gave him his debut and played him in almost every game until he got sacked. I do wish he'd started him more though. McPhee dropped him, Stendel eventually picked him, and Robbie has played him in most games but seems to be going with experience so far in our current situation. Irving's last game will have given him something to think about though.

Edited by ToqueJambo
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50 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Ironically, given your obsession with him and given that this is a discussion about not giving players like Irving a chance, of all the managers you mention Levein is the one who has shown most faith in Irving. He gave him his debut and played him in almost every game until he got sacked. I do wish he'd started him more though. McPhee dropped him, Stendel eventually picked him, and Robbie has played him in most games but seems to be going with experience so far in our current situation. Irving's last game will have given him something to think about though.

There’s showing faith and there’s knowing how to help young players express their best attributes. 
 

Levein’s/McPhee’s system and mentality didn’t do the latter.

 

Pretty glaringly obvious at the time.  

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7 hours ago, JamboAl said:

I totally understand why he brought in 2 wingers but these two haven't fitted the bill unless they're hiding their talent until cup final day.

At least they are good at hiding things.

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On 08/12/2020 at 07:51, Ainsley Harriott said:

I often think though when a manager brings a player in he is inclined to justify doing so by playing them, often to the detriment of younger players.

or just play players the manager has brought in over others - when the players brought in (often at high expense) are not performing.

 

Nielsen persisting with Roberts or Frear who he brought in - over playing Moore who looked one of our brighter players last season.

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Loving how Moore has propelled himself into a wing wizard. 😂


Moore and Henderson are every bit as not enough as Frear and Robert’s. They’ll all probably do to get us up but I’d empty the lot and start again. 

 

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On 07/12/2020 at 23:15, Cruyff said:

Yep. 

 

IMO Irving and Haring are longterm starters. I'd like to see us settle on 4-3-3 so I think if we could have Haring holding, Irving playmaker then a Hartley/Cameron type on the right of that three would give us a quality balance in midfield. 

Yep. Cup final wise, I’d like to see Haring and Irving with Halliday in front.  Walker, Ginelly and Naisy up top, and Boyce and Wighton off the bench.  

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1 hour ago, Dazo said:

Loving how Moore has propelled himself into a wing wizard. 😂


Moore and Henderson are every bit as not enough as Frear and Robert’s. They’ll all probably do to get us up but I’d empty the lot and start again. 

 

 

I don't disagree but why did we extend their deals?

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7 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

I don't disagree but why did we extend their deals?


No idea to be honest. Someone somewhere thought it was worth it, they are still young. Maybe I’m being overly harsh but I just don’t think they’ll make it. 

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22 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Maybe decided before the manager arrived. 

 

It was and that is my point we didn't have a Manager at the time but we extend their contracts???

 

Doesn't make sense to me. Let the new Manager make the decision surely.

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19 minutes ago, Dazo said:


No idea to be honest. Someone somewhere thought it was worth it, they are still young. Maybe I’m being overly harsh but I just don’t think they’ll make it. 

 

I think you are spot on and agree.

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