Dawnrazor Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: Get the Royals while they're at it. That's just sick, what a thoughtless, mindless obnoxious thing to say, Caroline Ahearn died a few years ago not long after Nana and and Sheridan Smith has had her troubles enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, kila said: I think statues in general are quite divisive and wonder if we need them. Museums are a good place for these things, not so sure public parks, university foyers etc. They are what they are. I really can’t get uptight about bits of stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: That's just sick, what a thoughtless, mindless obnoxious thing to say, Caroline Ahearn died a few years ago not long after Nana and and Sheridan Smith has had her troubles enough. My Arse! Can I just make a wee point o. The Pyramids. There is a lot of doubt that the workers who built them were slaves, bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Statues are just a publicly viewable reminder of institutionalised racism and crimes of the past. Racism is alive and well in the UK, it's not just the man in the pub or on the terraces shouting about immigrants, it's the underlying inequality from the top down that is harder to bring to light and slower to be remedied. Even today, the NHS have released the results of a report into the blood transfusion service and the structural racism in that department. It's everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 22 hours ago, Francis Albert said: How magnanimous of you to mention the one example I quoted that supported your argument but fail to respond to the other examples I quoted which didn't. Your theory of how change happens is simplistic in the extreme. Or do I mean ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, JamesM48 said: Have been worrying about Starbucks widows. Perhaps they failed to riot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Can I just make a wee point o. The Pyramids. There is a lot of doubt that the workers who built them were slaves, bud. Nae probs, they used to be built by slaves, not there may be some doubt, in a few years it'll be slaves again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 27 minutes ago, ri Alban said: My Arse! Can I just make a wee point o. The Pyramids. There is a lot of doubt that the workers who built them were slaves, bud. Serfs are what they are described as. Paid and able to own possessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, ri Alban said: My Arse! Can I just make a wee point o. The Pyramids. There is a lot of doubt that the workers who built them were slaves, bud. Reading Google I would think that Egypts present day government want to get away from that possible history a fast as possible. Edited June 9, 2020 by Sharpie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Oh aye, they were all on the living wage in Egypt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, jake said: Serfs are what they are described as. Paid and able to own possessions. What is not in doubt is that the Egyptians had slaves and so did the Romans, Vikings, Angles, Saxons (in fact all tribes), Muslims, Asians, Indians, Spanish Conquistadors...The African tribes enslaved defeated enemies.... Fact that it may have been paid workers who built the pyramids, which sounds like an unnecessary expense when slave labour was available for the unskilled work, is surely moot? The British slave traders did not use the slaves to build their buildings in the UK, and nor did the British people use slaves to build the statues to the slave traders who built the buildings, halls, parks and libraries... Slavery has always existed, openly up to 19th century and on the quiet ever since. Black people do not own slavery as a concept, and neither does the British Empire. As for serfs, they may have been able to own a horse and tools to plough their field but they rented the field... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 hours ago, benny said: Surely if they were that bothered petitions would have happened years ago to get them removed. They’ve been petitioning for nearly 30 years to get the Colston one taken down. There’s been petitions over the last few years to get Dundas and the Duke of Sutherland statues taken down. There are loads of folk more deserving of statues than these *******s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamhammer Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 hours ago, maroonlegions said: Jimmy Savile was good at charity work but was a pedo, we ignore his pedo side and put a statue up of him for his charity work. Where do you cross the fecking line here, the same concept should go for those that dealt in, or made money from fecking slavery. I would have no doubts in taring down a Jimmy Savile statue or those that done it, feck the bill for the cooncil , fecking snowflakes on hear more bothered about money than what these kind of statues stand for and are trying to endorse. There was one in the Weej somewhere. They calmly took it away when the paedo stuff came out, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said: They’ve been petitioning for nearly 30 years to get the Colston one taken down. There’s been petitions over the last few years to get Dundas and the Duke of Sutherland statues taken down. There are loads of folk more deserving of statues than these *******s. True but if the primary aim of BLM is removal of a few statues then it is a bit of a waste of time...2020 may be the time when British history gets blackwashed but the men will still be in the history books along with Ramses the Great and all the other historic owners of slaves. Unless the distinction is the trading of slaves? But Dundas never owned any slaves, he delayed the prevention of others from doing so...Is Colston any worse than Julius Caesar who made a fortune from selling defeated Gauls into slavery? Will Rome have to remove Caesar's statue? Edited June 9, 2020 by Spellczech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Spellczech said: True but if the primary aim of BLM is removal of a few statues then it is a bit of a waste of time...2020 may be the time when British history gets blackwashed but the men will still be in the history books along with Ramses the Great and all the other historic owners of slaves. Unless the distinction is the trading of slaves? But Dundas never owned any slaves, he delayed the prevention of others from doing so...Is Colston any worse than Julius Caesar who made a fortune from selling defeated Gauls into slavery? Will Rome have to remove Caesar's statue? Excellent post, particularly your last point. Where do people want to draw the line? Personally I'd not pull any statues down, I'd highlight the connection with slave trade of whoever's on it, and let people find out what went on, great talling and debate points for school trips ect. There's got to be plenty of places to put up statues of people who fought slavery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: Excellent post, particularly your last point. Where do people want to draw the line? Personally I'd not pull any statues down, I'd highlight the connection with slave trade of whoever's on it, and let people find out what went on, great talling and debate points for school trips ect. There's got to be plenty of places to put up statues of people who fought slavery. Why not take the slavey folk down and replace it with an anti-slavey person? Why do we still need the original guy up? You can have a plaque saying "Slavey guy was here, now he's not, this is why." People asked about white privilege earlier. To me, it's the fact that we live in a pretty decent ****ing country that was partly funded in the buying and selling of, mainly, black people. We have all the cool shit we have and that's partly to do with slavery and the white man kicking indigenous arse all those years ago. We shouldn't feel guilty about that. It had absolutely nothing to do with us. But we probably should be more aware of, and acknowledge more, the fact that our success as a nation, the comforts we currently enjoy, are built on the kidnapping, deaths, buying, selling and raping of black and brown people. And I'd say part of that should be not having monuments up celebrating the people involved in it. Edited June 9, 2020 by Normthebarman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just at down to watch TV but nearly every station is showing George Floyds funeral. It is obvious he was a great guy, and he did not deserve to be murdered, does anyone know what he worked at for a living, what was the result of the complaint of forgery that led to his death, and did he have a criminal record.. I thought I had watched the news pretty diligently but just don't recall seeing any information on these subjects. Just to be sure no one gets angry I am taking away nothing about the wrongness of his death, I would just like to know more about the man, not the victim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Normthebarman said: Why not take the slavey folk down and replace it with an anti-slavey person? Why do we still need the original guy up? You can have a plaque saying "Slavey guy was here, now he's not, this is why." People asked about white privilege earlier. To me, it's the fact that we live in a pretty decent ****ing country that was partly funded in the buying and selling of, mainly, black people. We have all the cool shit we have and that's partly to do with slavery and the white man kicking indigenous arse all those years ago. We shouldn't feel guilty about that. It had absolutely nothing to do with us. But we probably should be more aware of, and acknowledge more, the fact that our success as a nation, the comforts we currently enjoy, are built on the kidnapping, deaths, buying, selling and raping of black and brown people. And I'd say part of that should be not having monuments up celebrating the people involved in it. I keep hearing people talking of their "white privilege", especially celebs on social media, but to me it just sounds unbelievably patronising.... Personally I have a couple of black friends but I'd never go and smash up the town for a cause they may be invested in but has little to do with me. I may have never experienced overt racism but I have been called "cracker" - It didn't bother me TBH... Having a statue in your honour is the historical equivalent of Facebook likes, just a bit more visual and long-lasting. Is it for me to judge whether the people who erected it did it for the right reasons or not? No, but as you say, I can make my own mind up with my 21st century opinion and 20th century education as to whether the person was a good or a bad person. If I decide he was a bad person, I'm not going to smash it up so that others cannot see it and go through the same thought process... To me this statue-smashing is like book-burning. Simply wrong, but then I can read...Uneducated people need educated or they just just destroy...History taught us that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 hours ago, kila said: The desperation from some to bring the Egyptian Pyramids into this debate We're trying to come to terms with recent racist history in our own country, something that affects current generations. "Aye but what about the pyramids from thousands of years ago...!" The pyramids definitely weren't built by slaves anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Sharpie said: Just at down to watch TV but nearly every station is showing George Floyds funeral. It is obvious he was a great guy, and he did not deserve to be murdered, does anyone know what he worked at for a living, what was the result of the complaint of forgery that led to his death, and did he have a criminal record.. I thought I had watched the news pretty diligently but just don't recall seeing any information on these subjects. Just to be sure no one gets angry I am taking away nothing about the wrongness of his death, I would just like to know more about the man, not the victim. To me, it looks like he was mibbe a wee bit dodgy. Not a hardened criminal but enough to show he was no quiet, peaceful giant. Still no need for him to be dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 40 minutes ago, Spellczech said: True but if the primary aim of BLM is removal of a few statues then it is a bit of a waste of time...2020 may be the time when British history gets blackwashed but the men will still be in the history books along with Ramses the Great and all the other historic owners of slaves. Unless the distinction is the trading of slaves? But Dundas never owned any slaves, he delayed the prevention of others from doing so...Is Colston any worse than Julius Caesar who made a fortune from selling defeated Gauls into slavery? Will Rome have to remove Caesar's statue? I don’t think the removal of the statues in Scotland have anything to do with BLM, or the ones like Colstons where it’s been a nine of contention for 29 years. It’s just been highlighted in the last few days. Just because Dundas didn’t own any slaves doesn’t somehow make him innocent, Hitler/Churchill and Stalin probably didn’t kill anyone in person. The point is these statues glorifying these kinds of people rightly should be taken down, as Savilles was, and more deserving people put up instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Spellczech said: I keep hearing people talking of their "white privilege", especially celebs on social media, but to me it just sounds unbelievably patronising.... Personally I have a couple of black friends but I'd never go and smash up the town for a cause they may be invested in but has little to do with me. I may have never experienced overt racism but I have been called "cracker" - It didn't bother me TBH... Having a statue in your honour is the historical equivalent of Facebook likes, just a bit more visual and long-lasting. Is it for me to judge whether the people who erected it did it for the right reasons or not? No, but as you say, I can make my own mind up with my 21st century opinion and 20th century education as to whether the person was a good or a bad person. If I decide he was a bad person, I'm not going to smash it up so that others cannot see it and go through the same thought process... To me this statue-smashing is like book-burning. Simply wrong, but then I can read...Uneducated people need educated or they just just destroy...History taught us that. I ain't going to trash anything either. But I understand why people do. If the point is to educate, why have a statue of the ***** who committed the terrible things? Why not replace him with the victims? You can educate people about what happened without a statue of the guy who did it. Germany has memorials everywhere to educate about the horrors committed under Nazi Germany. None of them are of Hitler though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Spellczech said: What is not in doubt is that the Egyptians had slaves and so did the Romans, Vikings, Angles, Saxons (in fact all tribes), Muslims, Asians, Indians, Spanish Conquistadors...The African tribes enslaved defeated enemies.... Fact that it may have been paid workers who built the pyramids, which sounds like an unnecessary expense when slave labour was available for the unskilled work, is surely moot? The British slave traders did not use the slaves to build their buildings in the UK, and nor did the British people use slaves to build the statues to the slave traders who built the buildings, halls, parks and libraries... Slavery has always existed, openly up to 19th century and on the quiet ever since. Black people do not own slavery as a concept, and neither does the British Empire. As for serfs, they may have been able to own a horse and tools to plough their field but they rented the field... I was only saying how they were described by some. I dont disagree with your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Spellczech said: I keep hearing people talking of their "white privilege", especially celebs on social media, but to me it just sounds unbelievably patronising.... Personally I have a couple of black friends but I'd never go and smash up the town for a cause they may be invested in but has little to do with me. I may have never experienced overt racism but I have been called "cracker" - It didn't bother me TBH... Having a statue in your honour is the historical equivalent of Facebook likes, just a bit more visual and long-lasting. Is it for me to judge whether the people who erected it did it for the right reasons or not? No, but as you say, I can make my own mind up with my 21st century opinion and 20th century education as to whether the person was a good or a bad person. If I decide he was a bad person, I'm not going to smash it up so that others cannot see it and go through the same thought process... To me this statue-smashing is like book-burning. Simply wrong, but then I can read...Uneducated people need educated or they just just destroy...History taught us that. I think it’s been shown how many people have no idea about this statue or Dundas, I’ve studied a fair bit about Edinburgh’s new town but didnt know about this one. My mates from Wigan asked me years ago and I didn’t have a clue, in the days when you weren’t allowed in there, only finding out about 5 years ago. Apart from the Wellington and Hume statues I still do t know about many others, does anyone? I don’t think they’re educational at all, they evidence about them can be in a wall in a museum or in a book, not towering over us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said: I don’t think the removal of the statues in Scotland have anything to do with BLM, or the ones like Colstons where it’s been a nine of contention for 29 years. It’s just been highlighted in the last few days. Just because Dundas didn’t own any slaves doesn’t somehow make him innocent, Hitler/Churchill and Stalin probably didn’t kill anyone in person. The point is these statues glorifying these kinds of people rightly should be taken down, as Savilles was, and more deserving people put up instead. Dundas did more than just try to prevent/delay the abolition of slavery. He was actually a very talented advocate and politician...and perhaps even a bit of a thief to boot. The difference with statues of dictators like Saddam and Stalin is that they put the statues up themselves, for a political purpose. Dundas' statue was paid for by the Royal Navy - he had been a First Lord of the Admiralty IIRC... Who are these more deserving people you speak of? Can you be sure there are no skeletons in their closet like there was in Jimmy Saville's? Simple truth is that very few people are whiter than white (pardon the choice of phrase) and I would hazard to say that you could probably count on one hand the people who achieved enough to merit a statue whose career was unblemished... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 17 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said: I think it’s been shown how many people have no idea about this statue or Dundas, I’ve studied a fair bit about Edinburgh’s new town but didnt know about this one. My mates from Wigan asked me years ago and I didn’t have a clue, in the days when you weren’t allowed in there, only finding out about 5 years ago. Apart from the Wellington and Hume statues I still do t know about many others, does anyone? I don’t think they’re educational at all, they evidence about them can be in a wall in a museum or in a book, not towering over us. Then why does it matter at all? As I said, at some point in time the people of Edinburgh paid for a flipping big column and the Royal Navy put a statue of Dundas on it - it is so high up only the pigeons and seagulls can deface it, so who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 36 minutes ago, Normthebarman said: To me, it looks like he was mibbe a wee bit dodgy. Not a hardened criminal but enough to show he was no quiet, peaceful giant. Still no need for him to be dead. Thats sort of how I felt, but I did see people interviewed ho said how good a guy he was and I just wondered. He wouldn't be the first person I met who other than a disregard for the law was a pretty good guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakened Offender Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Sharpie said: Just to be sure no one gets angry I am taking away nothing about the wrongness of his death, I would just like to know more about the man, not the victim. We used to do this thing in school when someone was talking absolute shite and lying. It went something along the lines of: MAAAAHHHOOOOOOO 😁 Edited June 9, 2020 by Weakened Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: Criminal record for a variety offences and served some time for armed burglary, I think. Found God and turned to religion after being in prison. Then generally seemed to be a good figure in community doing a variety of things. Worked as security guard and some other similar type jobs, but think was unemployed due to COVID. Was a very good sportsman by all accounts. Think he used his love of sport etc to do community work with youths etc. Whilst was a positive example in turning his life around. They arrested him on forgery charge. Paid with a potentially dodgy note, the shop reported him. It was a in progress arrest. The BBC had a few people/friends who knew him and giving a bit more background to the man. Thanks very much that was pretty much what I was looking for. The last person that should be treated the way he was ia person who has or is trying to change, appreciate your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: Criminal record for a variety offences and served some time for armed burglary, I think. Found God and turned to religion after being in prison. Then generally seemed to be a good figure in community doing a variety of things. Worked as security guard and some other similar type jobs, but think was unemployed due to COVID. Was a very good sportsman by all accounts. Think he used his love of sport etc to do community work with youths etc. Whilst was a positive example in turning his life around. They arrested him on forgery charge. Paid with a potentially dodgy note, the shop reported him. It was a in progress arrest. The BBC had a few people/friends who knew him and giving a bit more background to the man. In my younger and more frivolous days I had a couple of little experiences with US policemen. The one thing you realise pretty quickly is that when they approach you with a hand on their gun in the holster shouting that you should put your hands on the steering wheel or dash, it is best to do as they say, whatever they say... I don't know why this Floyd was resisting arrest or being difficult - apparently they put him in a squadcar then manhandled him to the other side then he got out and lay down - not actions I would advise...Doesn't excuse why 3 of them climbed on him and why one pressed on his neck for 9 mins but my impression of US policemen is that expect you to do what they tell you to do, and it is best to do it. Perhaps they are scared, I sure would be working in such a job in a country awash with guns and flipping huge people like the US... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Sharpie said: Just at down to watch TV but nearly every station is showing George Floyds funeral. It is obvious he was a great guy, and he did not deserve to be murdered, does anyone know what he worked at for a living, what was the result of the complaint of forgery that led to his death, and did he have a criminal record.. I thought I had watched the news pretty diligently but just don't recall seeing any information on these subjects. Just to be sure no one gets angry I am taking away nothing about the wrongness of his death, I would just like to know more about the man, not the victim. George Floyd’s Criminal Past George Floyd moved to Minneapolis in 2014 after being released from prison in Houston, Texas following an arrest for aggravated robbery On May 25, 2020, Floyd was arrested for passing a counterfeit $20 bill at a grocery store in Minneapolis He was under the influence of fentanyl and methamphetamine at the time of arrest Floyd has more than a decade-old criminal history at the time of the arrest and went to jail for atleast 5 times George Floyd was the ringleader of a violent home invasion He plead guilty to entering a woman’s home, pointing a gun at her stomach and searching the home for drugs and money, according to court records Floyd was sentenced to 10 months in state jail for possession of cocaine in a December 2005 arrest He had previously been sentenced to eight months for the same offense, stemming from an October 2002 arrest Floyd was arrested in 2002 for criminal trespassing and served 30 days in jail He had another stint for a theft in August 1998 Nobody deserves to be murdered....nobody. I’m just answering Bobs post Edited June 9, 2020 by luckyBatistuta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: I only hope folk realise that when they start to install BAME statues, people will be picking through their histories to find any reason why they shouldn’t be allowed. It’ll end up becoming the South Park Christmas episode. Can't have Christmas mate. Santa uses the elves as slave labour making toys all year. Fat mince pie eating white capitalist bassa that he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 43 minutes ago, Spellczech said: I keep hearing people talking of their "white privilege", especially celebs on social media, but to me it just sounds unbelievably patronising.... Personally I have a couple of black friends but I'd never go and smash up the town for a cause they may be invested in but has little to do with me. I may have never experienced overt racism but I have been called "cracker" - It didn't bother me TBH... Having a statue in your honour is the historical equivalent of Facebook likes, just a bit more visual and long-lasting. Is it for me to judge whether the people who erected it did it for the right reasons or not? No, but as you say, I can make my own mind up with my 21st century opinion and 20th century education as to whether the person was a good or a bad person. If I decide he was a bad person, I'm not going to smash it up so that others cannot see it and go through the same thought process... To me this statue-smashing is like book-burning. Simply wrong, but then I can read...Uneducated people need educated or they just just destroy...History taught us that. Agree. Good post. No statue should be taken down. Not only for the statues and their historical significance but also because the people that created them were historically important sculptors too. Folk need to get over themselves. Too many snowflakes these days that need a shake and a good slap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Spellczech said: I keep hearing people talking of their "white privilege", especially celebs on social media, but to me it just sounds unbelievably patronising.... Personally I have a couple of black friends but I'd never go and smash up the town for a cause they may be invested in but has little to do with me. I may have never experienced overt racism but I have been called "cracker" - It didn't bother me TBH... Having a statue in your honour is the historical equivalent of Facebook likes, just a bit more visual and long-lasting. Is it for me to judge whether the people who erected it did it for the right reasons or not? No, but as you say, I can make my own mind up with my 21st century opinion and 20th century education as to whether the person was a good or a bad person. If I decide he was a bad person, I'm not going to smash it up so that others cannot see it and go through the same thought process... To me this statue-smashing is like book-burning. Simply wrong, but then I can read...Uneducated people need educated or they just just destroy...History taught us that. There was a Professor Sir Geoff Palmer of Heriot-Watt University saying something similar today on Sky News. He's completely against the removal of statues, what he would like to see is plaques or similar being erected explaining who the person was and what they did, in other words to educate people, don't stick them in a museum where nobody sees them, no leave them in the centre of town where everybody sees them and people can learn who they were and what they did. He said something else and I quote "To remove the statue is to remove the deed". His fear was that in time with the removal of statues people will forget who these people were and with it what they did and along with that they also forget part of their own history, whereas if they are still in the centre of town nobody will ever forget who they were and what they did. I totally agreed with what he was saying. It seems to me that we live in a time where a lot of people want to apply their present day morals to people and events which happened hundreds of years ago and you can't do that with history, it was a different time, a World apart from now, I also wonder sometimes how history will judge these people as well, will they be seen as being enlightended or will they be classed with having the same intolerance as the people who burned books, simply because they didn't like what they contained. Of course none of us will be around to see how history judges us and I think some people won't care how it does either. Edited June 9, 2020 by Jambo-Jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 47 minutes ago, Spellczech said: Dundas did more than just try to prevent/delay the abolition of slavery. He was actually a very talented advocate and politician...and perhaps even a bit of a thief to boot. The difference with statues of dictators like Saddam and Stalin is that they put the statues up themselves, for a political purpose. Dundas' statue was paid for by the Royal Navy - he had been a First Lord of the Admiralty IIRC... Who are these more deserving people you speak of? Can you be sure there are no skeletons in their closet like there was in Jimmy Saville's? Simple truth is that very few people are whiter than white (pardon the choice of phrase) and I would hazard to say that you could probably count on one hand the people who achieved enough to merit a statue whose career was unblemished... Yeah he was a Tory. Who are these people, there’s literally hundreds of them. Elsie Inglis for one, these ladies too. James Craig who designed the New Town. Conan Doyle, Tom Farmer, Ken Buchanan, Andy Murray, Chris Hoy, Tommy Walker, you could go on and on. You could have a vote on it. They certainly deserve one more than Dundas. Wellington has nothing to do with Edinburgh either, another Tory like Colston. I’m seeing a trend here 🤔. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said: Yeah he was a Tory. Who are these people, there’s literally hundreds of them. Elsie Inglis for one, these ladies too. James Craig who designed the New Town. Conan Doyle, Tom Farmer, Ken Buchanan, Andy Murray, Chris Hoy, Tommy Walker, you could go on and on. You could have a vote on it. They certainly deserve one more than Dundas. Wellington has nothing to do with Edinburgh either, another Tory like Colston. I’m seeing a trend here 🤔. Never too sure about the "first woman to..." stuff but Elsie Inglis certainly deserves more recognition in Edinburgh. Is there not something for Conan Doyle at the top of Leith Walk? Hoy and Murray have knighthoods but Murray's achievements shine mainly because of how rubbish Brits have been at tennis for decades before him, whilst Hoy won a lot of medals but it just seems easier to win lots of titles at sports like cycling and swimming where the events don't differ that much and you are beating the same people in each event...Farmer? Well how many unnecessary exhausts and tyres did he sell, particularly to women customers, when building his fortune? Once you're rich enough, becoming a philanthropist is an easy career choice. Wellington was honoured for his wartime exploits not his subsequent politics (at which he was a bit crap at TBH). It's a bit parochial to say that "he's not got anything to do with Edinburgh", as if that is a requirement, no? Edited June 9, 2020 by Spellczech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Spellczech said: Never too sure about the "first woman to..." stuff but Elsie Inglis certainly deserves more recognition in Edinburgh. Is there not something for Conan Doyle at the top of Leith Walk? Hoy and Murray have knighthoods but Murray's achievements shine mainly because of how rubbish Brits have been at tennis for decades before him, whilst Hoy won a lot of medals but it just seems easier to win lots of titles at sports like cycling and swimming where the events don't differ that much and you are beating the same people in each event...Farmer? Well how many unnecessary exhausts and tyres did he sell, particularly to women customers, when building his fortune? Once you're rich enough, becoming a philanthropist is an easy career choice. Wellington was honoured for his wartime exploits not his subsequent politics (at which he was a bit crap at TBH). It's a bit parochial to say that "he's not got anything to do with Edinburgh", as if that is a requirement, no? It doesn’t have to be locals but Wellington isn’t that relevant two hundred years later, I think we should have more female statues going forward. As not the most athletic and although I can’t stand Hoy for his politics I think you’ve maybe trivialised his achievements somewhat 😃. Him and Murray have gold post boxes anyway 🤔😂. Farmer saved Hibs, is a Sir and “ Leith-born chairman and chief executive of Kwik-Fit was appointed to the rank of Knight Commander with Star of the Order of St Gregory the Great at a ceremony at St Kentigern's Church in Edinburgh” in 1997 for his charity work 🤣. You could see how folk would want it though. Are you thinking of the pub? Only kidding this lovely statue of Sherlock Holmes is in Picardy place, bloody vandals eh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said: It doesn’t have to be locals but Wellington isn’t that relevant two hundred years later, I think we should have more female statues going forward. As not the most athletic and although I can’t stand Hoy for his politics I think you’ve maybe trivialised his achievements somewhat 😃. Him and Murray have gold post boxes anyway 🤔😂. Farmer saved Hibs, is a Sir and “ Leith-born chairman and chief executive of Kwik-Fit was appointed to the rank of Knight Commander with Star of the Order of St Gregory the Great at a ceremony at St Kentigern's Church in Edinburgh” in 1997 for his charity work 🤣. You could see how folk would want it though. Are you thinking of the pub? Only kidding this lovely statue of Sherlock Holmes is in Picardy place, bloody vandals eh. The victor of the Battle of Waterloo not relevant? He was the Churchill of the 19th Century...Never lost a battle IIRC He secured the land victory over Napoleon just as Nelson secured the seas for Britain and together they secured the Empire for another 100 years so that it could reach its zenith under Victoria... It is a shame that Elsie Inglis was not given a more public memorial than in the Library, but I'm not sure about revisiting history just to even up the female statue count...It feels like men being patronising by showing their 21st Century feminist credentials. I guess it is an interesting question as to whether you ought decide to honour people 100-200 years after society really should have...It feels somewhat revisionist to me, but I can see the arguments for it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Normthebarman said: Why not take the slavey folk down and replace it with an anti-slavey person? Why do we still need the original guy up? You can have a plaque saying "Slavey guy was here, now he's not, this is why." People asked about white privilege earlier. To me, it's the fact that we live in a pretty decent ****ing country that was partly funded in the buying and selling of, mainly, black people. We have all the cool shit we have and that's partly to do with slavery and the white man kicking indigenous arse all those years ago. We shouldn't feel guilty about that. It had absolutely nothing to do with us. But we probably should be more aware of, and acknowledge more, the fact that our success as a nation, the comforts we currently enjoy, are built on the kidnapping, deaths, buying, selling and raping of black and brown people. And I'd say part of that should be not having monuments up celebrating the people involved in it. I get your point, we're not far apart really, I'd leave the original statues up with the info on the base, or somewhere similar and put an anti slavery guy(?) on another statue somewhere else or near by, I don't like the idea of erasing history that some don't like, I think it should be there to be discussed and used to educate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Some interesting posts. Another angle from a recent article. Most of those being demonised lived 200,300, even 400 years ago. Their crimes are of course unforgivable and repellent to us today and should have been in their time. But they were of their time. But though I am not 100% convinced of the extreme environmental position of Extinction Rebellion and the like there seems a good chance that future generations will look back at the 20th and 21st centuries and our contribution to harm to humanity which dwarfs even the tragedy of slavery. And it won't just be the powerful who will be to blame but all of us who drive cars, enjoy foreign holidays , fly, have central heating, use the internet etc. And the harm we do will bear most heavily on ... the poor and BAME population of the planet. I don't think we or the protesters have so much to be smug and self-righteous about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Spellczech said: The victor of the Battle of Waterloo not relevant? He was the Churchill of the 19th Century...Never lost a battle IIRC He secured the land victory over Napoleon just as Nelson secured the seas for Britain and together they secured the Empire for another 100 years so that it could reach its zenith under Victoria... It is a shame that Elsie Inglis was not given a more public memorial than in the Library, but I'm not sure about revisiting history just to even up the female statue count...It feels like men being patronising by showing their 21st Century feminist credentials. I guess it is an interesting question as to whether you ought decide to honour people 100-200 years after society really should have...It feels somewhat revisionist to me, but I can see the arguments for it too. So it’s revisionist to honour them but good to keep Wellingtons statue up? Yes Wellington isn’t relevant in 2020 I’m afraid, let’s move forward and stop living on what some call past glories. Another statue comes down in England, Scottish Slave Trader Robert Milligan, good pals with Tory PM William Pitt the younger, strange eh? More to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 "Wellington isn't relevant today" ? "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it ... The first time is tragedy the second farce". Or words to that effect. Attributed variously to I think Hegel and Karl Marx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: Some interesting posts. Another angle from a recent article. Most of those being demonised lived 200,300, even 400 years ago. Their crimes are of course unforgivable and repellent to us today and should have been in their time. But they were of their time. But though I am not 100% convinced of the extreme environmental position of Extinction Rebellion and the like there seems a good chance that future generations will look back at the 20th and 21st centuries and our contribution to harm to humanity which dwarfs even the tragedy of slavery. And it won't just be the powerful who will be to blame but all of us who drive cars, enjoy foreign holidays , fly, have central heating, use the internet etc. And the harm we do will bear most heavily on ... the poor and BAME population of the planet. I don't think we or the protesters have so much to be smug and self-righteous about. They weren't crimes at the time though. At the time, the slaves were just a commodity as oil is today...there to be traded, exploited and profited from. Ironically the debate about slavery was heavily religious, with many of the anti-slavery lobby being ministers of the church and those for slavery being ministers of the Government - who used passages from the Bible to show that Christianity approved of slavery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Spellczech said: They weren't crimes at the time though. At the time, the slaves were just a commodity as oil is today...there to be traded, exploited and profited from. Ironically the debate about slavery was heavily religious, with many of the anti-slavery lobby being ministers of the church and those for slavery being ministers of the Government - who used passages from the Bible to show that Christianity approved of slavery... I was of course judging them as crimes by today 's standards. Exploitation of child labour, killing and destroying the health of workers for profit, locking up unmarried mothers etc were not crimes either. And many of these crimes contimue to this day in many parts of the world without much protest in the West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Francis Albert said: I was of course judging them as crimes by today 's standards. Exploitation of child labour, killing and destroying the health of workers for profit, locking up unmarried mothers etc were not crimes either. And many of these crimes contimue to this day in many parts of the world without much protest in the West. It's just not acceptable to some to criticize the countries or religions that carry out some of the worst atrocities today, governments are as bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1971fozzy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) I sincerely hope that the word “******” etc is removed from all music that is sang by black people. a horrendous word that rightfully should never be used but seems to be acceptable in music. If times should be updated then this word should also be banished . Awful word Edited June 9, 2020 by 1971fozzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: It's just not acceptable to some to criticize the countries or religions that carry out some of the worst atrocities today, governments are as bad. That is essentially the nonsense of the BLM movement in the UK - They know our police aren't quite as bad as the US police, so they are bashing the monuments of rich men from 200 years ago knowing that even those of us who disagree with them on a matter of principle are not so bothered that we will come out and fight for the statues. The truth is that they are as self-seeking and "on the up" as these 250 year old men were. They want the wealth, the jobs, the Western lifestyle and freedoms. Don't mention to them that there are women from the Balkans being traded as prostitutes even in the UK, even in some BAME communities... Today I listened to guys on Talk Sport bemoaning the lack of black managers in football and pitying multi-millionaire Jermaine Defoe who suggests there is no point in him doing his coaching badges as there may not be a top job for him in management...What effing planet are these people on? They want slavery to be about being black, but it isn't. They mention slavery to guilt trip us on the deaths of people in the Caribbean and USA in the 16th to 19th centuries as if that is pertinent to the problems in society today, and some people are going for it...BLM seems like this big mish-mash of dissatisfactions - is it slavery, racism, education, jobs & opportunity, poor housing, policing? Simple observation is that the UK opened its borders in the 50s and the Asian communities appear to have made a far better fist of getting a piece of the pie than the Afro-Carribean communities...That cannot be due to racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Spellczech said: That is essentially the nonsense of the BLM movement in the UK - They know our police aren't quite as bad as the US police, so they are bashing the monuments of rich men from 200 years ago knowing that even those of us who disagree with them on a matter of principle are not so bothered that we will come out and fight for the statues. The truth is that they are as self-seeking and "on the up" as these 250 year old men were. They want the wealth, the jobs, the Western lifestyle and freedoms. Don't mention to them that there are women from the Balkans being traded as prostitutes even in the UK, even in some BAME communities... Today I listened to guys on Talk Sport bemoaning the lack of black managers in football and pitying multi-millionaire Jermaine Defoe who suggests there is no point in him doing his coaching badges as there may not be a top job for him in management...What effing planet are these people on? They want slavery to be about being black, but it isn't. They mention slavery to guilt trip us on the deaths of people in the Caribbean and USA in the 16th to 19th centuries as if that is pertinent to the problems in society today, and some people are going for it...BLM seems like this big mish-mash of dissatisfactions - is it slavery, racism, education, jobs & opportunity, poor housing, policing? Simple observation is that the UK opened its borders in the 50s and the Asian communities appear to have made a far better fist of getting a piece of the pie than the Afro-Carribean communities...That cannot be due to racism. Another excellent post, sadly you'll be branded a racist for daring to say some of that! I posted a video earlier with Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington and a few others in it, a few uncomfortable truths for some on here, probably why it's been ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: Another excellent post, sadly you'll be branded a racist for daring to say some of that! I posted a video earlier with Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington and a few others in it, a few uncomfortable truths for some on here, probably why it's been ignored. Possibly, but when the insults come out, you know you've won the debate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Spellczech said: Possibly, but when the insults come out, you know you've won the debate... Agreed, but it's the MO of some, they have some perfectly valid opinions but if you don't agree with them, you're a racist. One video I posted was of a homeless man having his possessions set on fire by rioters, one poster immediately sarcastically asked if it was from a far right web site, because it didn't suit his narrative it had to be far right propaganda! Edited June 9, 2020 by Dawnrazor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.