Levein and MacPhee left on May 31st ( updated )

[Bazzas right boot]

33 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Yes they have and I think it was you. About 14 hours ago. ( sorry if I have that wrong )

 

 

 

I actually have said on here 6th, lc sf and sc final isn't great. 

Also said he was deservedly sacked on this thread. Hardly praise. 

 

Laying out his record isn't praise. 

It's just pointing out a correction or a fact. 

 

If folk think that pointing out his record as dof and manager is  praise or is defending him, they need to look at thier own agenda. 

 

If someone says he was a failure as a dof and manager, then I lay out his season record it is neither praise or criticism it is just information. 

 

Some think his record is the worst and/or  he is soley responsible for us being bottom then that is thier opinion, but the fact is when he left as manager we weren't bottom and no amount of emotional out bursts will change that. 

 

Just because some Hearts fans aren't celebrating CL failing and joining in with the bashing such as being trophyless does not necessarily mean it's praise. 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Smith's right boot

[Bazzas right boot]

5 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

Let's be honest.  It was really 2 full seasons (league anyway).  Levein waited a good month before appointing himself.  This was after realising no manager with any sort of pedigree would work under him. 

 

Yeah, I agree to a point but a bit like Stendel he was lumbered with players that weren't his in his first season, but yes I agree he had most of the season and all the league season. 

 

Again, like last season it wasn't great but it wasn't terrible. 

The season after (last season) the league form was the same but cups much better. 

This season gone as manager after 11 games after being generally shit and with us second bottom. 

 

Not sure why there is a lot of hatred put his way, his record is like many sacked Hearts managers. 

 

As dof he had 2 good seasons, then a very average 5th place finish. 

 

If that upsets folk then fair enough. 

 

New chapter beckons...., just don't know were or when. 🙄

 

 

 

 

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Yeah, I agree to a point but a bit like Stendel he was lumbered with players that weren't his in his first season, but yes I agree he had most of the season and all the league season. 

 

Again, like last season it wasn't great but it wasn't terrible. 

The season after (last season) the league form was the same but cups much better. 

This season gone as manager after 11 games after being generally shit and with us second bottom. 

 

Not sure why there is a lot of hatred put his way, his record is like many sacked Hearts managers. 

 

As dof he had 2 good seasons, then a very average 5th place finish. 

 

If that upsets folk then fair enough. 

 

New chapter beckons...., just don't know were or when. 🙄

 

 

 

 

 

I think the upset if because a lot of people could feel the malaise growing and bedding in. If anything, the frustration with Levein is down to Budge’s support of him as much as anything. If we were drifting in fifth/sixth then I’d have understood a slower death but he was putting us at risk of relegation and I’m still amazed that it took someone spray painting the badge outside the main stand for Ann to act.

[Ex member of the SaS]

10 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

You've never been in management, then?  Targets are changed often in companies to reflect changing circumstances which are sometimes outside our contract and today almost every club will be reviewing theit targets, financially at least, to cope with Covid.

How do you know it was CL who gave them these contracts?  He would have a part to play as would AB and our Financial Director but I would seriously doubt he was anywhere near autonomous.  As regards the high basic I would guess that was AB who appears to put a high on good worker relations.

How do we know it was Levein? This has to be the biggest attempt at defection yet. First off Ann Gave him full control of the footballing dept.

Why would Ann get involved with player contracts if she knew nothing about football.

Secondly he was DoF ( you do know what that role does )

Third he was manager, managers suggest players to the DoF and he does his best to get them at a price the club can afford. ( Finance director would have a say in this, it's true ) 

DoF's work out contracts and signs the player

As Ann gave him FULL control I would suggest  ( I don't know for a fact ) Levein arranged the payment system, and this was part of the contract negotiations.

[Last Laff]

4 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Aye, and as dof CL won the championship. 

 

Aye, it's hilarious how many of  our players of the 80 's and 90's won nothing and how celtic beat us in last year's final, hilarious stuff. 

 

 

It’s not hilarious at all.  It shows how successful Levein was with Hearts when you champion him “winning the championship” when he wasn’t even in the dug out.  

[JamboAl]

19 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It’s not hindsight. There was a thread on here in February of last year - literally 10 months before Levein was sacked - pointing out that it was going to shit. You couldn’t see it because you’re evidently clueless but most of the rest of us could.

 

That’s not a criticism of Levein’s original appointment btw. That would be a case of being clever with hindsight.

 

Out of interest, who would you suggest for the role (without running to google)?

You

[Last Laff]

4 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

How do we know it was Levein? This has to be the biggest attempt at defection yet. First off Ann Gave him full control of the footballing dept.

Why would Ann get involved with player contracts if she knew nothing about football.

Secondly he was DoF ( you do know what that role does )

Third he was manager, managers suggest players to the DoF and he does his best to get them at a price the club can afford. ( Finance director would have a say in this, it's true ) 

DoF's work out contracts and signs the player

As Ann gave him FULL control I would suggest  ( I don't know for a fact ) Levein arranged the payment system, and this was part of the contract negotiations.

How do we know control freak Levein gave out the contracts to players as manager and DoF.

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

Jesus Christ man  what a tube. 

[JamboAl]

6 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

How do we know it was Levein? This has to be the biggest attempt at defection yet. First off Ann Gave him full control of the footballing dept.

Why would Ann get involved with player contracts if she knew nothing about football.

Secondly he was DoF ( you do know what that role does )

Third he was manager, managers suggest players to the DoF and he does his best to get them at a price the club can afford. ( Finance director would have a say in this, it's true ) 

DoF's work out contracts and signs the player

As Ann gave him FULL control I would suggest  ( I don't know for a fact ) Levein arranged the payment system, and this was part of the contract negotiations.

So your whole post is based on assumption?

Well done.

[JamboAl]

7 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

It’s not hilarious at all.  It shows how successful Levein was with Hearts when you champion him “winning the championship” when he wasn’t even in the dug out.  

Yes but he was passing notes down, wasn't he?

[JamboAl]

28 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It’s not hindsight. There was a thread on here in February of last year - literally 10 months before Levein was sacked - pointing out that it was going to shit. You couldn’t see it because you’re evidently clueless but most of the rest of us could.

 

That’s not a criticism of Levein’s original appointment btw. That would be a case of being clever with hindsight.

 

Out of interest, who would you suggest for the role (without running to google)?

Man U fans pointed out it was going to shit with them and Fergie should have been sacked. 

You could be sacking a manager every other week if you listen to fans, especially self-entitled ones.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

3 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Man U fans pointed out it was going to shit with them and Fergie should have been sacked. 

You could be sacking a manager every other week if you listen to fans, especially self-entitled ones.

At what point did Levein look like turning it around? Should we just plough on forever into the lowland league?

 

Your inability to suggest a DOF pretty much confirms my point about you being clueless.

[tian447]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

PS I don't know if David Moss would have helped but if his brothers came as well that might suit us.

 

 

[The Fonz]

Sir Alex Ferguson 🤣 

[Last Laff]

15 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Yes but he was passing notes down, wasn't he?

In the championship? Nah Robbie pissed it without his control 👍

[Last Laff]

21 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

So your whole post is based on assumption?

Well done.

Ann has admitted he had too much control in hindsight, even she admitted it was a **** up  an assumption  

[Last Laff]

6 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

Sir Alex Ferguson 🤣 

 

[JamboAl]

15 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Ann has admitted he had too much control in hindsight, even she admitted it was a **** up  an assumption  

Link, please.

[JamboAl]

24 minutes ago, tian447 said:

 

 

Thanks,

I was starting to think it was wasted.

[JamboAl]

19 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

In the championship? Nah Robbie pissed it without his control 👍

So can we agree he didn't pass notes or interfere in Robbie's running of the team?

[Coco]

 I am very disappointed that Levein is back - and has managed to bind himself into the club regardless of forthcoming results.

 

Got it right on Levein but not on Neilson or Murray (though the youth academy has not performed well under Levein).  My hopes of a better Board of Directors haven't been met though in regards to the 'football department'.

[Last Laff]

14 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

So can we agree he didn't pass notes or interfere in Robbie's running of the team?

In the championship, no. Hence the success. 

[Beni]

16 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Link, please.

 

 

 

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/amp/news/hearts-owner-ann-budge-admits-making-mistake-craig-levein-appointment

[JamboAl]

2 minutes ago, Coco said:

 I am very disappointed that Levein is back - and has managed to bind himself into the club regardless of forthcoming results.

 

Got it right on Levein but not on Neilson or Murray (though the youth academy has not performed well under Levein).  My hopes of a better Board of Directors haven't been met though in regards to the 'football department'.

Your quote stops short.  Can you show us the full quote, please.

[JamboAl]

9 minutes ago, Coco said:

 I am very disappointed that Levein is back - and has managed to bind himself into the club regardless of forthcoming results.

 

Got it right on Levein but not on Neilson or Murray (though the youth academy has not performed well under Levein).  My hopes of a better Board of Directors haven't been met though in regards to the 'football department'.

Baseless opinion but sufficient to show you weren't a CL fan although you didn't get it right on RN and JM.

I suppose 1 out of 3 is not bad for an amateur.

[JamboAl]

12 minutes ago, fancy a brew said:

 

 

 

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/amp/news/hearts-owner-ann-budge-admits-making-mistake-craig-levein-appointment

Aye she said it was a mistake for him to take on BOTH roles but even that was with the advantage of hindsight.

[Last Laff]

6 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Baseless opinion but sufficient to show you weren't a CL fan although you didn't get it right on RN and JM.

I suppose 1 out of 3 is not bad for an amateur.

More abuse.  Stay classy.  Pick your toys back up too.  We are hearts fans, not Levein fans. Unlike you.  You put him ahead of the club weirdly. 

[Last Laff]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Aye she said it was a mistake for him to take on BOTH roles but even that was with the advantage of hindsight.

Why do you think she said it was a mistake? Because he had too much control.

 

”how do you know he was the one offering the contracts”  funniest thing ever read on here. 

[Des Lynam]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

You've never been in management, then?  Targets are changed often in companies to reflect changing circumstances which are sometimes outside our contract and today almost every club will be reviewing theit targets, financially at least, to cope with Covid.

How do you know it was CL who gave them these contracts?  He would have a part to play as would AB and our Financial Director but I would seriously doubt he was anywhere near autonomous.  As regards the high basic I would guess that was AB who appears to put a high on good worker relations.

 

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

At what point did Levein look like turning it around? Should we just plough on forever into the lowland league?

 

Your inability to suggest a DOF pretty much confirms my point about you being clueless.

 

I would have thought that was obvious. Do you not watch Hearts? Levein had the infuriating habit (if you're one of these folk who prefers to bang on about their hatred for Levein rather than their love of Hearts) of pulling a result out of the hat when things looked like they were never going to get better. He did that several times before he stopped doing it, which led to some alleged Hearts fans hoping we would actually lose a derby or other matches so he would go.

 

Unfortunately for them, he was always capable of winning a derby and competing well in a cup final or other big game. When these results became more and more spaced out and he failed at what he was previously very good at - consistently picking up points against the smaller teams - it was clear to everyone including his supporters that he was done. There's no mystery why anyone might have thought Levein could turn things around, especially with a lot of players to come back from injury.  There's probably still a good football manager inside Levein but he lost sight of what he was good at IMO and started trying too many different things.

[jamboozy]

14 minutes ago, Barack said:

So they've left then.

 

That means we can close this fascinating thread then?

Hope so, I just popped in to see if he had left a fair well note🙁

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I would have thought that was obvious. Do you not watch Hearts? Levein had the infuriating habit (if you're one of these folk who prefers to bang on about their hatred for Levein rather than their love of Hearts) of pulling a result out of the hat when things looked like they were never going to get better. He did that several times before he stopped doing it, which led to some alleged Hearts fans hoping we would actually lose a derby or other matches so he would go.

 

Unfortunately for them, he was always capable of winning a derby and competing well in a cup final or other big game. When these results became more and more spaced out and he failed at what he was previously very good at - consistently picking up points against the smaller teams - it was clear to everyone including his supporters that he was done. There's no mystery why anyone might have thought Levein could turn things around, especially with a lot of players to come back from injury.  There's probably still a good football manager inside Levein but he lost sight of what he was good at IMO and started trying too many different things.

All those results did was keep his head above water. You’d have to be deluded to think they were indicative of anything else. This is why I wanted him to leave even if he’d won the Scottish Cup. He might have pulled off one result against Celtic but if you looked at the bigger picture, he wasn’t building anything credible.

[Taffin]

I can't believe there's still folk defending him 😂😂

 

Wonder when the 20/21 kit release for Craig Levein FC will be released? Hope it's to your tastes.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

12 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

All those results did was keep his head above water. You’d have to be deluded to think they were indicative of anything else. This is why I wanted him to leave even if he’d won the Scottish Cup. He might have pulled off one result against Celtic but if you looked at the bigger picture, he wasn’t building anything credible.

 

By the end something definitely changed, whether it was his heart attack or all the injuries and his inability to cope with them. Before then he was building something credible. He improved the team's form beyond recognition from what it was a year before. He initially made Tynecastle somewhat of a fortress again, and had us winning cup ties and derbies again. While league results were still patchy we were going in the right direction until we got all the injuries. His signings went from quick fixes in 2017/18 to mass recruitment in summer 2018 to much more targeted recruitment in summer 2019 (while still failing to recruit a decent goalie and experienced winger, and waiting too long for Djoum to make his mind up).

 

Following a football club is all about hope. There's always a chance things will turn around. By the end it was clear he was done, but his own experience meant he believed he could turn it around too (because he'd been there and done it) and that previous experience was no doubt what persuaded Budge and others that he could as well. A less experienced manager would have been punted much sooner, simply because they'd never proven they could do it before.

Edited June 2, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Guest ToqueJambo]

7 minutes ago, Taffin said:

I can't believe there's still folk defending him 😂😂

 

Wonder when the 20/21 kit release for Craig Levein FC will be released? Hope it's to your tastes.

 

Defending him or trying to do a rational analysis of his time as manager second time around? Literally no-one is saying he did a good job in the end or that he should have stayed. The debate is between some folk who obviously have such superior football knowledge or are maybe psychic that they know for sure we'll never turn things around and some folk who have seen us turn bad form around under the same manager and believe we can do that again.

 

All the Levein oot folk went VERY quiet when we had that amazing start to 18/19. No-one believed we'd make a start like that to the season after the season before, but we did!

Edited June 2, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Ex member of the SaS]

15 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I would have thought that was obvious. Do you not watch Hearts? Levein had the infuriating habit (if you're one of these folk who prefers to bang on about their hatred for Levein rather than their love of Hearts) of pulling a result out of the hat when things looked like they were never going to get better. He did that several times before he stopped doing it, which led to some alleged Hearts fans hoping we would actually lose a derby or other matches so he would go.

 

Unfortunately for them, he was always capable of winning a derby and competing well in a cup final or other big game. When these results became more and more spaced out and he failed at what he was previously very good at - consistently picking up points against the smaller teams - it was clear to everyone including his supporters that he was done. There's no mystery why anyone might have thought Levein could turn things around, especially with a lot of players to come back from injury.  There's probably still a good football manager inside Levein but he lost sight of what he was good at IMO and started trying too many different things.

You do realise that we moan when teams come here and play their hearts out, stepping up their game simply to put one over on us? One could argue Levein did that with the teams you mention. We needed a manager that could get the team up for the diddy games not just the big ones.

A good manager inside Levein? He defended one goal leads against the bottom sides and as often as not settled for a draw instead of going for a win.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

You do realise that we moan when teams come here and play their hearts out, stepping up their game simply to put one over on us? One could argue Levein did that with the teams you mention. We needed a manager that could get the team up for the diddy games not just the big ones.

A good manager inside Levein? He defended one goal leads against the bottom sides and as often as not settled for a draw instead of going for a win.

 

Yes, and we still don't have that manager on current evidence. We had one of those in Neilson and he got huge criticism from some quarters. Levein, as I said in my post, also used to be able to pick up the points form smaller teams and do well in the bigger games. That's why he was a very good manager until he stopped being a very good manager for some reason.

[martoon]

23 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I would have thought that was obvious. Do you not watch Hearts? Levein had the infuriating habit (if you're one of these folk who prefers to bang on about their hatred for Levein rather than their love of Hearts) of pulling a result out of the hat when things looked like they were never going to get better. He did that several times before he stopped doing it, which led to some alleged Hearts fans hoping we would actually lose a derby or other matches so he would go.

 

Unfortunately for them, he was always capable of winning a derby and competing well in a cup final or other big game. When these results became more and more spaced out and he failed at what he was previously very good at - consistently picking up points against the smaller teams - it was clear to everyone including his supporters that he was done. There's no mystery why anyone might have thought Levein could turn things around, especially with a lot of players to come back from injury.  There's probably still a good football manager inside Levein but he lost sight of what he was good at IMO and started trying too many different things.

 

Good post. 

 

Remarkable how poorly we did in cat.b games compared to 2002-2004 when we were virtually unbeatable away and literally at home. 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by martoon

[JamboAl]

43 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

More abuse.  Stay classy.  Pick your toys back up too.  We are hearts fans, not Levein fans. Unlike you.  You put him ahead of the club weirdly. 

It's good that you see me as classy and, yes I shall try to stay that way.  Thank you.

As regards abuse, I used the word "baseless" as he gave no basis or grounds for his opinion.  As it happens I'm not sure either that CL was a good appointment if only because I am uneasy about ex players/managers coming back to a club.  I get the impression it fails more often than it succeeds.

You put Rangers above our club LAFF.

[Ex member of the SaS]

5 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Yes, and we still don't have that manager on current evidence. We had one of those in Neilson and he got huge criticism from some quarters. Levein, as I said in my post, also used to be able to pick up the points form smaller teams and do well in the bigger games. That's why he was a very good manager until he stopped being a very good manager for some reason.

I have posted before that I am of the opinion that Robbie left due to Levein interfering with his team and tactic selections. ( Ok many do not agree but that's up to them ) As for Levein being a good manager I take exception to your assumption he did well against the lower clubs. He often went defensive when winning 1-0 and often pulled the players back or made a defensive sub, only to get a draw or a loss. Getting players up for the big games is fine but he should have done this for all games. How often were we rampant in the first twenty minutes/first half only to sit in later in the game?

[JamboAl]

44 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

 

Is that the most sense you can come up with?

 

Well done

[JamboAl]

16 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Defending him or trying to do a rational analysis of his time as manager second time around? Literally no-one is saying he did a good job in the end or that he should have stayed. The debate is between some folk who obviously have such superior football knowledge or are maybe psychic that they know for sure we'll never turn things around and some folk who have seen us turn bad form around under the same manager and believe we can do that again.

 

All the Levein oot folk went VERY quiet when we had that amazing start to 18/19. No-one believed we'd make a start like that to the season after the season before, but we did!

Excellent post!

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Is that the most sense you can come up with?

 

Well done

 

It was all it deserved. 

 

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Just now, Ex member of the SaS said:

I have posted before that I am of the opinion that Robbie left due to Levein interfering with his team and tactic selections. ( Ok many do not agree but that's up to them ) As for Levein being a good manager I take exception to your assumption he did well against the lower clubs. He often went defensive when winning 1-0 and often pulled the players back or made a defensive sub, only to get a draw or a loss. Getting players up for the big games is fine but he should have done this for all games. How often were we rampant in the first twenty minutes/first half only to sit in later in the game?

 

I'm taking about his previous managerial experience. He didn't do that in his first spell with us that I remember. We were a very hard to beat team and often smashed teams. And we often didn't have many genuine stars we relied on either. He used to be able to pull a team together from odds and ends and make them very hard to beat, and he did it with us start 18/19 until he lost most of his better players. He did well at D Utd too. That's the point, there's always the belief and possibility a manager who has been good in the past can be good again. Same with players.

[JamboAl]

4 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

It was all it deserved. 

 

 

Is that because you are incapable of making constructive contributions?

Well done again, Des

     

Edited June 2, 2020 by JamboAl

[Ex member of the SaS]

4 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I'm taking about his previous managerial experience. He didn't do that in his first spell with us that I remember. We were a very hard to beat team and often smashed teams. And we often didn't have many genuine stars we relied on either. He used to be able to pull a team together from odds and ends and make them very hard to beat, and he did it with us start 18/19 until he lost most of his better players. He did well at D Utd too. That's the point, there's always the belief and possibility a manager who has been good in the past can be good again. Same with players.

Ok good point well made.

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Is that because you are incapable of making constructive contriburions?

Well done again, Des

     

 

Sorry Al I’ll leave you to make constructive contributions like maybe Levein who held DOF and managers role maybe wasn’t signing folk and Ann and Jacqui were. 

 

 

[Des Lynam]

6 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I'm taking about his previous managerial experience. He didn't do that in his first spell with us that I remember. We were a very hard to beat team and often smashed teams. And we often didn't have many genuine stars we relied on either. He used to be able to pull a team together from odds and ends and make them very hard to beat, and he did it with us start 18/19 until he lost most of his better players. He did well at D Utd too. That's the point, there's always the belief and possibility a manager who has been good in the past can be good again. Same with players.

 

Fully agree. 

[Last Laff]

10 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Excellent post!

Why would fans want the manager out when the team has an amazing start?  How does that even make sense? Your type went quiet after continuous humiliations. 

[Last Laff]

6 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

Sorry Al I’ll leave you to make constructive contributions like maybe Levein who held DOF and managers role maybe wasn’t signing folk and Ann and Jacqui were. 

 

 

 I didn’t think Levein could be defended any further but that’s a complete and utter stoater  even before the Sir Alex and Davie Moss comparisons. 

[JamboAl]

5 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

Sorry Al I’ll leave you to make constructive contributions like maybe Levein who held DOF and managers role maybe wasn’t signing folk and Ann and Jacqui were. 

 

 

I'll try and do ths in baby steps for you.

 

I said earlier

He would have a part to play as would AB and our Financial Director but I would seriously doubt he was anywhere near autonomous.  As regards the high basic I would guess that was AB who appears to put a high on good worker relations.

 

Now out of that where did you get?

(a) Levein wasn't signing folk.  HE WOUlD HAVE A PART TO PLAY.  John Murray might have played a part and it's generally accepted MacPhee was responsible for some players being here.

(b) Ann and Jacqui were.  Where did I say Ann and Jacqui were signing players?

As regards the high basic I said that AB puts a high value (although I missed that word out it aould be clear to most sensible people) on caring for her staff. 

If Levein, MacPhee, Murray or whoever, suggested/wanted/recommended a player it is not unreasonable to believe the Financial Director might be consulted.

To repeat I doubt very much if CL was autonomous.