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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

English debt???  Really? Covered by English tax payers , true, but generated disproprionately by Scotland. You don't wslk away from that without becoming a pariah state.

If we are such a burden, let us go! Take some debt too with the assets. 

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2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

English. What debt has Scotland accrued? 

As part of the UK the debt is as much Scotlands.

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1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

As part of the UK the debt is as much Scotlands.

What did they spend it on? I demand a breakdown of facts and budgets that have been allocated also where all my tax has been sent? That's what the rabid unionists ask. I demand, I demand etc. etc... 

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1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

What did they spend it on? I demand a breakdown of facts and budgets that have been allocated also where all my tax has been sent? That's what the rabid unionists ask. I demand, I demand etc. etc... 

So where does the money spent in Scotland come from? 

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5 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

If we are such a burden, let us go! Take some debt too with the assets. 

Who mentioned being a burden? I agree, assets and debts are equally shared. If I were Boris, I would offer Sturgeon full fiscal autonomy on a trial basis and let's see how it goes. Incidentally,  if anyone can  come up with a coherent reason why the island of Ireland should unite and GB should separate, I would love to hear it.

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6 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Yes, but there is debt.

Of course. And there is assets too. But when it comes down to it, it's all about democracy. Scotland needs to chose it's own government to suit its size. Imo.

Edited by ri Alban
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4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So where does the money spent in Scotland come from? 

Tell me, I want to know? I can't get the government to let me know. 

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13 minutes ago, gjcc said:


I saw that sensationalist piece. Bloke triaged by call handlers, put down on the priority list as nothing imminently wrong with him other than pain exacerbated by a previous condition.

Uproar as he was only given a trolley in A&E and not a bed (A&E is all trolleys, not beds).
The bloke had to wait hours in A&E but was mentioned to have not broken any bones or any lasting physical concerns, so he’d obviously been assessed, potentially even an x-Ray. Hardly as if he’d just been left waiting untreated.

Wife took him home, and he got a script for pain relief from his GP. 

He had to wait 5 - FIVE - hours for an ambulance in the first place. Had that happened in England, the twisted wee First Minister would be spitting out her customary bile.

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Just now, ri Alban said:

From Scotland.

Part of it comes from Scotland ....but we raise £800 per head less in tax and receive £1.2k more in public spending. Every penny raised in Scotland is sent ito Westminster and every penny + £10bn comes back. I,'m looking to become independent from my Credit Card if anyone wants to take on a similar arrangement?

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4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

He had to wait 5 - FIVE - hours for an ambulance in the first place. Had that happened in England, the twisted wee First Minister would be spitting out her customary bile.

Why?

NHS is fully devolved and always has been.

First Minister wouldn't say a thing about NHS England failings.

 

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Just now, Cade said:

Why?

NHS is fully devolved and always has been.

First Minister wouldn't say a thing about NHS England failings.

 

She does refer to it when questioned on Scottish waiting times.

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5 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Part of it comes from Scotland ....but we raise £800 per head less in tax and receive £1.2k more in public spending. Every penny raised in Scotland is sent ito Westminster and every penny + £10bn comes back. I,'m looking to become independent from my Credit Card if anyone wants to take on a similar arrangement?

If you believe Gers. Scotland raises over £70b. £40b comes back, WM spends the rest.

 

7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Not all of it as you know.

England spend on the never never aswell. What's the big deal.

Edited by ri Alban
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Just now, Dawnrazor said:

She does refer to it when questioned on Scottish waiting times.

She doesn't criticise the NHS England, she only uses performance comparison.

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1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

If you believe Gers.

 

England spend on the never never aswell. What's the big deal.

Im not saying its a big deal, just that Scotland has debt.

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4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Part of it comes from Scotland ....but we raise £800 per head less in tax and receive £1.2k more in public spending. Every penny raised in Scotland is sent ito Westminster and every penny + £10bn comes back. I,'m looking to become independent from my Credit Card if anyone wants to take on a similar arrangement?

Stated by whom and derived from which data sources? I want Westminster to tell me Scotland's finances. Not propaganda. Ffs. 

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1 minute ago, Cade said:

Why?

NHS is fully devolved and always has been.

First Minister wouldn't say a thing about NHS England failings.

 

Tune in to FMQs on  Thursdays and she reqularly refers any critics of our NHS to performance in Labour run Wales ot Toaaarrrry run England. Ask her which PM's policy facilitated her parents to buy their council house and I suspect she would be lost for words. 

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Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

Stated by whom and derived from which data sources? I want Westminster to tell me Scotland's finances. Not propaganda. Ffs. 

I could see if i can get you Boris's phone number?

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2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Im not saying its a big deal, just that Scotland has debt.

More's the Pity we didn't copy Norway. But hey hi, they're still a good 60 years left to do so, if we just grow a pair. I'm sure most of our Allies will be pleased for us and do what they can to help us re-establish ourselves.

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12 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Stated by whom and derived from which data sources? I want Westminster to tell me Scotland's finances. Not propaganda. Ffs. 

The GERS figures are commissioned by the Scottish govt. Which part of Scotland do you think is this thriving, innovative hub that is being held back by nasty Boris and his Toaaarry party?  If we had a proper devolved government here rather than the swivel-eyed , single issue protest party that is in power, it would be negotiating with the UK govt about the benefits of coming out of the Common Fisheries Policy and the other myriad powers that are being repatriated after leaving the EU.

Edited by Enzo Chiefo
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jack D and coke
11 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The GERS figures are commissioned by the Scottish govt. Which part of Scotland do you think is this thriving, innovative hub that is being held back by nasty Boris and his Toaaarry party?  If we had a proper devolved government here than the swivel-eyed , single issue protest party that is in power, e would be negotiating with the UK govt about the benefits of coming out of the Common Fisheries Policy and the other myriad powers that are being repatriated after leaving the EU.

So you think we’re getting control of our waters again aye? What are the fishing rights going to bring you personally? You realise how small a part of the uk economy it is in comparison to say the financial services? We keep them out of our waters the city of London gets a doing. Who do you reckon will give?

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7 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

So you think we’re getting control of our waters again aye? What are the fishing rights going to bring you personally? You realise how small a part of the uk economy it is in comparison to say the financial services? We keep them out of our waters the city of London gets a doing. Who do you reckon will give?

London is big enough to deal with threats from Barnier and his ilk. The bottom line is that the EU and individual countries are 2 different entities. It is a cartel that hammers poorer countries, outwith the bloc, with huge tarriffs on their goods.  The EU is a busted  flush and it's agressive rhetoric towards the UK is down to the fact that it knows we are only the first. Other countries will follow and the entire project will disintegrate. Maggie Thatcher was the architect of the Single Market but she wouldn't have envisaged the gradual erosion of sovereignty that would follow.

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2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

London is big enough to deal with threats from Barnier and his ilk. The bottom line is that the EU and individual countries are 2 different entities. It is a cartel that hammers poorer countries, outwith the bloc, with huge tarriffs on their goods.  The EU is a busted  flush and it's agressive rhetoric towards the UK is down to the fact that it knows we are only the first. Other countries will follow and the entire project will disintegrate. Maggie Thatcher was the architect of the Single Market but she wouldn't have envisaged the gradual erosion of sovereignty that would follow.

56% of the Dutch polled would leave, rumblings in France and Italy too.

I'd be all in favour of the original idea, but it's morphed out of all recognition. 

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jack D and coke
6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

London is big enough to deal with threats from Barnier and his ilk. The bottom line is that the EU and individual countries are 2 different entities. It is a cartel that hammers poorer countries, outwith the bloc, with huge tarriffs on their goods.  The EU is a busted  flush and it's agressive rhetoric towards the UK is down to the fact that it knows we are only the first. Other countries will follow and the entire project will disintegrate. Maggie Thatcher was the architect of the Single Market but she wouldn't have envisaged the gradual erosion of sovereignty that would follow.

All sounds good mate. I think you’re wrong though. 
We’ll see I guess. 

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10 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

All sounds good mate. I think you’re wrong though. 
We’ll see I guess. 

Exactly JD. Just my opinion and I respect yours and others. Time will tell.

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16 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

56% of the Dutch polled would leave, rumblings in France and Italy too.

I'd be all in favour of the original idea, but it's morphed out of all recognition. 

Completely agree with you.

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7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

56% of the Dutch polled would leave, rumblings in France and Italy too.

I'd be all in favour of the original idea, but it's morphed out of all recognition. 

Sorry Dawnie, but Enzo and your hypocrisy on the EU and UK is quite pathetic. The Scottish people back in the 18th Century didn't want anything to do with the Union, but now we're stuck (thro votes from non Scots Brits) in a Union that is less democratic than the EU will ever be.

Did the UK ever get a section 30 or any permission at all to leave the EU? Does UK taxes go to Brussels and then sent back to administrated by an executive with selected powers the EU can't be arsed with? Did the EU impose the Euro on the EU like the UK imposed Sterling? And is Brussels the capital of all the EU member states, like London is to the member state of the UK?

48 MPs from 45% of the Scottish electorate, but for some reason this doesn't give them a mandate to hold an Independence ref, yet Brexit is supposedly mandated by the Tories achieving 43% of the UK vote. Hypocrites all round on the Unionist side, don't you think.

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16 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Sorry Dawnie, but Enzo and your hypocrisy on the EU and UK is quite pathetic. The Scottish people back in the 18th Century didn't want anything to do with the Union, but now we're stuck (thro votes from non Scots Brits) in a Union that is less democratic than the EU will ever be.

Did the UK ever get a section 30 or any permission at all to leave the EU? Does UK taxes go to Brussels and then sent back to administrated by an executive with selected powers the EU can't be arsed with? Did the EU impose the Euro on the EU like the UK imposed Sterling? And is Brussels the capital of all the EU member states, like London is to the member state of the UK?

48 MPs from 45% of the Scottish electorate, but for some reason this doesn't give them a mandate to hold an Independence ref, yet Brexit is supposedly mandated by the Tories achieving 43% of the UK vote. Hypocrites all round on the Unionist side, don't you think.

Where to start with all this. Scotland is a small country in UK terms and miniscule in European terms. Scotland is NOT an equal part of the UK.....you are confusing number of countries with population share. Look at the Brexit party for example ...far more votes than the SNP but no seats. Is that fair?? The SNP achieved less than 50% of the Scottish vote but ended up with 85% of the seats . Is that fair?? Who cares about the 18th century. We were at war with Germany 75 years but have built bridges. Yet still you want to hark back to battles hundreds of years ago. Do you applaud Rangers supporters when they come to Tynecastle and sing about equally irrelevant historic battles?

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SNP and EU are both finished!

The Good Ship Brittania, under the enlightened direction of the Glorious Conservative Party shall rebuild it's Empire and lead the world into a brave new dawn!

 

:olly:

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6 minutes ago, Cade said:

SNP and EU are both finished!

The Good Ship Brittania, under the enlightened direction of the Glorious Conservative Party shall rebuild it's Empire and lead the world into a brave new dawn!

 

:olly:

Well Derek Mackay - without ever learning about the Laffer Curve - is finished. And Alex Salmond will shortly will be tried in the High Court. Nicola Sturgeon's future is in doubt too so, I'm quite glad the true seat of power lies in Westminster tbh.

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1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

56% of the Dutch polled would leave, rumblings in France and Italy too.

I'd be all in favour of the original idea, but it's morphed out of all recognition. 

I worked in offices, call centres, factories and even a coffee shop in my 10 years in Holland. I met people who didn't like aspects, people who wanted change, but very very few who wanted out altogether. In fact, the only specific people I can think of who did want out were english.

Obviously you meet a lot of people in ten years, and you won't know everyone's thoughts on every subject, but especially in my last couple of years there it was a hot topic and the overwhelming tone was "wtf are you doing, are you crazy?"

 

There's 2 links below, the first is to the most recent survey of how people view the EU by country, an annual undertaking by Pew Research, the second is an independent rating of Pew's reliability and bias - basically above reproach.

 

I'd really question how demonstrative that 56% figure is.

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pew-research/

 

PG_10.15.19.europe.values-04-016.png

Edited by Smithee
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37 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Alex Salmond will shortly will be tried in the High Court. Nicola Sturgeon's future is in doubt too so, I'm quite glad the true seat of power lies in Westminster tbh.

Watch out for fat Alex’s comeback if he is acquitted. Nicola will be toast in that scenario. Salmond henchmen like Angus McNeil and Kenny (‘he is going to die’) MacAskill will oversee the restoration. Joanna Cherry and Angus ‘useless’ Robertson also positioning themselves.

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15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I worked in offices, call centres, factories and even a coffee shop in my 10 years in Holland. I met people who didn't like aspects, people who wanted change, but very very few who wanted out altogether. In fact, the only specific people I can think of who did want out were english.

Obviously you meet a lot of people in ten years, and you won't know everyone's thoughts on every subject, but especially in my last couple of years there it was a hot topic and the overwhelming tone was "wtf are you doing, are you crazy?"

 

There's 2 links below, the first is to the most recent survey of how people view the EU by country, an annual undertaking by Pew Research, the second is an independent rating of Pew's reliability and bias - basically above reproach.

 

I'd really question how demonstrative that 56% figure is.

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pew-research/

 

PG_10.15.19.europe.values-04-016.png

I can only quote the figures in the poll i saw, you've obviously had more time in Holland than me, 3 holidays to Cuijk when i was a teenager to vist the family my grandand was bililted with in the war, but your argument on questioning how demostrative the 56% is could be leveled at any argument including the figures in your graph.

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4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I can only quote the figures in the poll i saw, you've obviously had more time in Holland than me, 3 holidays to Cuijk when i was a teenager to vist the family my grandand was bililted with in the war, but your argument on questioning how demostrative the 56% is could be leveled at any argument including the figures in your graph.

Indeed, which is why I gave both the source and an independent veracity check of that source.

Where's your source and how reliable is it?

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6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Indeed, which is why I gave both the source and an independent veracity check of that source.

Where's your source and how reliable is it?

I'd have to go and look for it again, I only took notice of it because it was Holland and the figuers surprised me. 

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4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I'd have to go and look for it again, I only took notice of it because it was Holland and the figuers surprised me. 

Fair enough. Not intended as a dig btw, but 56% is utter bollocks in my personal experience and from independent polling I've seen.

 

Interestingly one of the polls on Pew shows that people who hold right wing views are much more likely to hold a negative view of the EU, so it may be that you've seen readership polling from a right wing paper or something. 

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1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Fair enough. Not intended as a dig btw, but 56% is utter bollocks in my personal experience and from independent polling I've seen.

 

Interestingly one of the polls on Pew shows that people who hold right wing views are much more likely to hold a negative view of the EU, so it may be that you've seen readership polling from a right wing paper or something. 

Possibly, it would have come up on my google home page when i turned my phone on, so probably a newspaper story.

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9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Fair enough. Not intended as a dig btw, but 56% is utter bollocks in my personal experience and from independent polling I've seen.

 

Interestingly one of the polls on Pew shows that people who hold right wing views are much more likely to hold a negative view of the EU, so it may be that you've seen readership polling from a right wing paper or something. 

It was a Peil poll for Maurice de Hond in February, about 1200 people were polled.

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Trapper John McIntyre

I see  Mr EU, Leo Varadker has thrown a hissy fit as his bosses in Brussels have told him to cough up more money.

 

Other member states face the same dilemma as the Old Men attempt to plug the gap the UK has left. They have expenses to pay for, after all.

 

Meanwhile millions have lost their jobs in Britain, people are starving in the streets, order breaks down and Hearts face relegation as the economy sinks into a Brexit abyss....

 

And Eck is up before the judge in less than three weeks ..

 

Can things get any worse?

Edited by Trapper John McIntyre
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BarneyBattles
3 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Part of it comes from Scotland ....but we raise £800 per head less in tax and receive £1.2k more in public spending. Every penny raised in Scotland is sent ito Westminster and every penny + £10bn comes back. I,'m looking to become independent from my Credit Card if anyone wants to take on a similar arrangement?


So surely it would be in Westminster’s / England’s best interests financially to get rid of the Scottish financial burden. 
 

Seems a bit strange not to allow another referendum given we’re draining the coffers of a Westminster government that’s had an austerity policy for over a decade ‘out of necessity to balance the books’?

 

Or, you’re talking pish. 

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17 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It was a Peil poll for Maurice de Hond in February, about 1200 people were polled.

I cant find verification of the site anywhere, but Maurice de Hond owns Peil. According to the About Us bit on Peil.nl they poll people who register on their site. I'd say that's representative of people who register on their site, nothing else, but the type of thing our right wing press will report as reliable source. Where did you see it reported?

 

Pew's methodology is available on their site if you want to compare btw.

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2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I cant find verification of the site anywhere, but Maurice de Hond owns Peil. According to the About Us bit on Peil.nl they poll people who register on their site. I'd say that's representative of people who register on their site, nothing else, but the type of thing our right wing press will report as reliable source. Where did you see it reported?

 

Pew's methodology is available on their site if you want to compare btw.

Like i said, i saw it, iirc, on googles hame page, i looked up the names i half remembered, the first two names i put in were footballers!, and got it from there.

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1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Like i said, i saw it, iirc, on googles hame page, i looked up the names i half remembered, the first two names i put in were footballers!, and got it from there.

Fair enough

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