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The rise and fall of The SNP.

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Enzo Chiefo
16 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

56% of the Dutch polled would leave, rumblings in France and Italy too.

I'd be all in favour of the original idea, but it's morphed out of all recognition. 

Completely agree with you.

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ri Alban
7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

56% of the Dutch polled would leave, rumblings in France and Italy too.

I'd be all in favour of the original idea, but it's morphed out of all recognition. 

Sorry Dawnie, but Enzo and your hypocrisy on the EU and UK is quite pathetic. The Scottish people back in the 18th Century didn't want anything to do with the Union, but now we're stuck (thro votes from non Scots Brits) in a Union that is less democratic than the EU will ever be.

Did the UK ever get a section 30 or any permission at all to leave the EU? Does UK taxes go to Brussels and then sent back to administrated by an executive with selected powers the EU can't be arsed with? Did the EU impose the Euro on the EU like the UK imposed Sterling? And is Brussels the capital of all the EU member states, like London is to the member state of the UK?

48 MPs from 45% of the Scottish electorate, but for some reason this doesn't give them a mandate to hold an Independence ref, yet Brexit is supposedly mandated by the Tories achieving 43% of the UK vote. Hypocrites all round on the Unionist side, don't you think.

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Enzo Chiefo
16 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Sorry Dawnie, but Enzo and your hypocrisy on the EU and UK is quite pathetic. The Scottish people back in the 18th Century didn't want anything to do with the Union, but now we're stuck (thro votes from non Scots Brits) in a Union that is less democratic than the EU will ever be.

Did the UK ever get a section 30 or any permission at all to leave the EU? Does UK taxes go to Brussels and then sent back to administrated by an executive with selected powers the EU can't be arsed with? Did the EU impose the Euro on the EU like the UK imposed Sterling? And is Brussels the capital of all the EU member states, like London is to the member state of the UK?

48 MPs from 45% of the Scottish electorate, but for some reason this doesn't give them a mandate to hold an Independence ref, yet Brexit is supposedly mandated by the Tories achieving 43% of the UK vote. Hypocrites all round on the Unionist side, don't you think.

Where to start with all this. Scotland is a small country in UK terms and miniscule in European terms. Scotland is NOT an equal part of the UK.....you are confusing number of countries with population share. Look at the Brexit party for example ...far more votes than the SNP but no seats. Is that fair?? The SNP achieved less than 50% of the Scottish vote but ended up with 85% of the seats . Is that fair?? Who cares about the 18th century. We were at war with Germany 75 years but have built bridges. Yet still you want to hark back to battles hundreds of years ago. Do you applaud Rangers supporters when they come to Tynecastle and sing about equally irrelevant historic battles?

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Cade

SNP and EU are both finished!

The Good Ship Brittania, under the enlightened direction of the Glorious Conservative Party shall rebuild it's Empire and lead the world into a brave new dawn!

 

:olly:

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Space Mackerel

The more “fruity” elements of our support have chucked it. 

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Enzo Chiefo
6 minutes ago, Cade said:

SNP and EU are both finished!

The Good Ship Brittania, under the enlightened direction of the Glorious Conservative Party shall rebuild it's Empire and lead the world into a brave new dawn!

 

:olly:

Well Derek Mackay - without ever learning about the Laffer Curve - is finished. And Alex Salmond will shortly will be tried in the High Court. Nicola Sturgeon's future is in doubt too so, I'm quite glad the true seat of power lies in Westminster tbh.

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Dawnrazor
6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

The more “fruity” elements of our support have chucked it. 

You and RI ?

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Smithee
1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

56% of the Dutch polled would leave, rumblings in France and Italy too.

I'd be all in favour of the original idea, but it's morphed out of all recognition. 

I worked in offices, call centres, factories and even a coffee shop in my 10 years in Holland. I met people who didn't like aspects, people who wanted change, but very very few who wanted out altogether. In fact, the only specific people I can think of who did want out were english.

Obviously you meet a lot of people in ten years, and you won't know everyone's thoughts on every subject, but especially in my last couple of years there it was a hot topic and the overwhelming tone was "wtf are you doing, are you crazy?"

 

There's 2 links below, the first is to the most recent survey of how people view the EU by country, an annual undertaking by Pew Research, the second is an independent rating of Pew's reliability and bias - basically above reproach.

 

I'd really question how demonstrative that 56% figure is.

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pew-research/

 

PG_10.15.19.europe.values-04-016.png

Edited by Smithee

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weehammy
37 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Alex Salmond will shortly will be tried in the High Court. Nicola Sturgeon's future is in doubt too so, I'm quite glad the true seat of power lies in Westminster tbh.

Watch out for fat Alex’s comeback if he is acquitted. Nicola will be toast in that scenario. Salmond henchmen like Angus McNeil and Kenny (‘he is going to die’) MacAskill will oversee the restoration. Joanna Cherry and Angus ‘useless’ Robertson also positioning themselves.

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Dawnrazor
15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I worked in offices, call centres, factories and even a coffee shop in my 10 years in Holland. I met people who didn't like aspects, people who wanted change, but very very few who wanted out altogether. In fact, the only specific people I can think of who did want out were english.

Obviously you meet a lot of people in ten years, and you won't know everyone's thoughts on every subject, but especially in my last couple of years there it was a hot topic and the overwhelming tone was "wtf are you doing, are you crazy?"

 

There's 2 links below, the first is to the most recent survey of how people view the EU by country, an annual undertaking by Pew Research, the second is an independent rating of Pew's reliability and bias - basically above reproach.

 

I'd really question how demonstrative that 56% figure is.

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pew-research/

 

PG_10.15.19.europe.values-04-016.png

I can only quote the figures in the poll i saw, you've obviously had more time in Holland than me, 3 holidays to Cuijk when i was a teenager to vist the family my grandand was bililted with in the war, but your argument on questioning how demostrative the 56% is could be leveled at any argument including the figures in your graph.

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Smithee
4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I can only quote the figures in the poll i saw, you've obviously had more time in Holland than me, 3 holidays to Cuijk when i was a teenager to vist the family my grandand was bililted with in the war, but your argument on questioning how demostrative the 56% is could be leveled at any argument including the figures in your graph.

Indeed, which is why I gave both the source and an independent veracity check of that source.

Where's your source and how reliable is it?

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Dawnrazor
6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Indeed, which is why I gave both the source and an independent veracity check of that source.

Where's your source and how reliable is it?

I'd have to go and look for it again, I only took notice of it because it was Holland and the figuers surprised me. 

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Smithee
4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I'd have to go and look for it again, I only took notice of it because it was Holland and the figuers surprised me. 

Fair enough. Not intended as a dig btw, but 56% is utter bollocks in my personal experience and from independent polling I've seen.

 

Interestingly one of the polls on Pew shows that people who hold right wing views are much more likely to hold a negative view of the EU, so it may be that you've seen readership polling from a right wing paper or something. 

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Dawnrazor
1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Fair enough. Not intended as a dig btw, but 56% is utter bollocks in my personal experience and from independent polling I've seen.

 

Interestingly one of the polls on Pew shows that people who hold right wing views are much more likely to hold a negative view of the EU, so it may be that you've seen readership polling from a right wing paper or something. 

Possibly, it would have come up on my google home page when i turned my phone on, so probably a newspaper story.

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Dawnrazor
9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Fair enough. Not intended as a dig btw, but 56% is utter bollocks in my personal experience and from independent polling I've seen.

 

Interestingly one of the polls on Pew shows that people who hold right wing views are much more likely to hold a negative view of the EU, so it may be that you've seen readership polling from a right wing paper or something. 

It was a Peil poll for Maurice de Hond in February, about 1200 people were polled.

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Trapper John McIntyre

I see  Mr EU, Leo Varadker has thrown a hissy fit as his bosses in Brussels have told him to cough up more money.

 

Other member states face the same dilemma as the Old Men attempt to plug the gap the UK has left. They have expenses to pay for, after all.

 

Meanwhile millions have lost their jobs in Britain, people are starving in the streets, order breaks down and Hearts face relegation as the economy sinks into a Brexit abyss....

 

And Eck is up before the judge in less than three weeks ..

 

Can things get any worse?

Edited by Trapper John McIntyre

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BarneyBattles
3 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Part of it comes from Scotland ....but we raise £800 per head less in tax and receive £1.2k more in public spending. Every penny raised in Scotland is sent ito Westminster and every penny + £10bn comes back. I,'m looking to become independent from my Credit Card if anyone wants to take on a similar arrangement?


So surely it would be in Westminster’s / England’s best interests financially to get rid of the Scottish financial burden. 
 

Seems a bit strange not to allow another referendum given we’re draining the coffers of a Westminster government that’s had an austerity policy for over a decade ‘out of necessity to balance the books’?

 

Or, you’re talking pish. 

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Smithee
17 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It was a Peil poll for Maurice de Hond in February, about 1200 people were polled.

I cant find verification of the site anywhere, but Maurice de Hond owns Peil. According to the About Us bit on Peil.nl they poll people who register on their site. I'd say that's representative of people who register on their site, nothing else, but the type of thing our right wing press will report as reliable source. Where did you see it reported?

 

Pew's methodology is available on their site if you want to compare btw.

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Dawnrazor
2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I cant find verification of the site anywhere, but Maurice de Hond owns Peil. According to the About Us bit on Peil.nl they poll people who register on their site. I'd say that's representative of people who register on their site, nothing else, but the type of thing our right wing press will report as reliable source. Where did you see it reported?

 

Pew's methodology is available on their site if you want to compare btw.

Like i said, i saw it, iirc, on googles hame page, i looked up the names i half remembered, the first two names i put in were footballers!, and got it from there.

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Smithee
1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Like i said, i saw it, iirc, on googles hame page, i looked up the names i half remembered, the first two names i put in were footballers!, and got it from there.

Fair enough

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Zlatanable

The one thing the SNP had for certain, was their duty to the SNP. 

That seems gone now, and I think there is a fair chance the SNP will rip themselves into pieces in the next few months. 

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Enzo Chiefo
19 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:


So surely it would be in Westminster’s / England’s best interests financially to get rid of the Scottish financial burden. 
 

Seems a bit strange not to allow another referendum given we’re draining the coffers of a Westminster government that’s had an austerity policy for over a decade ‘out of necessity to balance the books’?

 

Or, you’re talking pish. 

The figures are out in the public domain...so, you're wrong. My facts are correct. 

Regarding the "why don't they cut us loose" argument that is trotted out periodically, the Tory govt, certainly more than the cabal on the left, value the UK, the institution,  the great achievements we have had, the shared sovereignty,  the social, economic, familial and language ties. The taxes raised in London fund most of the country but that doesn't mean they want to go it alone,. 

Edited by Enzo Chiefo

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BarneyBattles
4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The figures are out in the public domain...so, you're wrong. My facts are correct. 

Regarding the "why don't they cut us loose" argument that is trotted out periodically, the Tory govt, certainly more than the cabal on the left, value the UK, the institution,  the great achievements we have had, the shared sovereignty,  the social, economic, familial and language ties. The taxes raised in London fund most of the country but that doesn't mean they want to go it alone,. 


How can I be wrong when I didn’t dispute any of your figures?

 

As for the rest of it, aye right. England wants to keep Scotland because they like being part of a loss-making partnership. 
 

You’d have to be buttoned up the back to believe that, which to be fair, it sounds like you are. 

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Enzo Chiefo
3 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:


How can I be wrong when I didn’t dispute any of your figures?

 

As for the rest of it, aye right. England wants to keep Scotland because they like being part of a loss-making partnership. 
 

You’d have to be buttoned up the back to believe that, which to be fair, it sounds like you are. 

Well why is Edinburgh  burdened with Dundee? Should we go it alone too? Or South Edinburgh with North? Come to think of it, I pay more tax than my next door neighbour, maybe I should go for independence??

Why is the EU burdened with the poorer countries that are subsidised by the Uk, Germany and France? Would they not be better off by getting rid of them?

 

Edited by Enzo Chiefo

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BarneyBattles
3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Well why is Edinburgh  burdened with Dundee? Should we go it alone too? Or South Edinburgh with North? Come to think of it, I pay more tax than my next door neighbour, maybe I should go for independence??

Why is the EU burdened with the poorer countries that are subsidised by the Uk, Germany and France? Would they not be better off by getting rid of them?

 


So you now think that Germany and France want to keep Romania Greece etc. because of what they’ve achieved together, language and familial ties? 

 

You’re not making much sense to be honest. 
 

I’ll ignore the independence for Dundee aspect. 

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JustinT
3 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:


So you now think that Germany and France want to keep Romania Greece etc. because of what they’ve achieved together, language and familial ties? 

 

You’re not making much sense to be honest
 

I’ll ignore the independence for Dundee aspect. 

Enzo's the one talking sense. He like the majority of Scots want to stay part of the UK. You on the other hand wish to put at severe risk our economy and isolate us up here in Scotland as a hard left outcast state that the rest of our island neighbours would view with deserved suspicion and acrimony. 

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Enzo Chiefo
1 minute ago, BarneyBattles said:


So you now think that Germany and France want to keep Romania Greece etc. because of what they’ve achieved together, language and familial ties? 

 

You’re not making much sense to be honest. 
 

I’ll ignore the independence for Dundee aspect. 

So the EU want rid of the poorer countries? Is that what you're saying? Haven't heard any reports to that effect tbh but you maybe know better. I think there is more to it than who contributes what. It's all about pooling and sharing.

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Enzo Chiefo
Just now, JustinT said:

Enzo's the one talking sense. He like the majority of Scots want to stay part of the UK. You on the other hand wish to put at severe risk our economy and isolate us up here in Scotland as a hard left outcast state that the rest of our island neighbours would view with deserved suspicion and acrimony. 

Well said Justin. All the competing left wing factions would tear the country apart. Tommy Sheridan, Patrick Harvie and Nicola Sturgeon....imagine being governed by any of that shower of rogues. 

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BarneyBattles
6 minutes ago, JustinT said:

Enzo's the one talking sense. He like the majority of Scots want to stay part of the UK. You on the other hand wish to put at severe risk our economy and isolate us up here in Scotland as a hard left outcast state that the rest of our island neighbours would view with deserved suspicion and acrimony. 


I was going to respond in words but seriously this will do 😂

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BarneyBattles
1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Well said Justin. All the competing left wing factions would tear the country apart. Tommy Sheridan, Patrick Harvie and Nicola Sturgeon....imagine being governed by any of that shower of rogues. 

😂

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JustinT
20 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Well said Justin. All the competing left wing factions would tear the country apart. Tommy Sheridan, Patrick Harvie and Nicola Sturgeon....imagine being governed by any of that shower of rogues. 

Exactly Enzo. 

 

They'd be dictators ruling over an isolated northern entity no longer part of the UK, a pariah nation cut off from its neighbours. Much like North Korea is to its Southern counterparts. The Snp and its supporters couldn't care less though and never engage in debate as to what it would be like post separation as they know fine well it would be carnage. Its like the blind leading the blind, they're beyond help.

Edited by JustinT

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Roxy Hearts
31 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

😂

There are some absolute weirdos on here BB. I feel your anguish at some of the stuff. You'd think Scotland would require Bob Gelfof to drum up support if we became self governing!

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jake
4 hours ago, Cade said:

SNP and EU are both finished!

The Good Ship Brittania, under the enlightened direction of the Glorious Conservative Party shall rebuild it's Empire and lead the world into a brave new dawn!

 

:olly:

Doesnt have to be the tories.

 

It's a good thing Scottish self government.

It's a good thing for any country to take control and be accountable.

If austerity suits their particular economics that's good.

But if it doesnt theres not much they can do as part of the EU.

It cant happen.

What other levers does a country as part of the EU have?

 

 

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JustinT
57 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

There are some absolute weirdos on here BB. I feel your anguish at some of the stuff. You'd think Scotland would require Bob Gelfof to drum up support if we became self governing!

Calling people 'weirdo's' is in itself a very weird thing to do. Its what the snp are all about though. Its the surefire sign of dictatorship by those who cannot win an argument by way of reason and democratic free thinking.. Its all about acquiring separation no matter what for you isn't it?

Edited by JustinT

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jake
1 hour ago, JustinT said:

Exactly Enzo. 

 

They'd be dictators ruling over an isolated northern entity no longer part of the UK, a pariah nation cut off from its neighbours. Much like North Korea is to its Southern counterparts. The Snp and its supporters couldn't care less though and never engage in debate as to what it would be like post separation as they know fine well it would be carnage. Its like the blind leading the blind, they're beyond help.

Eh naw.

There is fundamentally a psyche that's Scottish and entrepreneurial.

It can never fulfill its potential as part of the UK.

I do concede that what we have at the moment are very real powers to reflect our national politic .

But imo we need full responsibility.

Where I think I'd disagree with other indy supporters is the way Scotland should manage post indy.

 

That's shite btw the Korean stuff.

Very different history and the blind leading the blind ?

What a fekin cheek .

Scotland has far punched way above its weight in every sector you can mention.

(Even football).

 

Mention any fundamental part of civil governance.

Financial social democray and our influence as a nation is there both good and dark.

I am no flag waver in fact I hate that shite.

But I do believe that we are a country that has characteristics that are worth expressing .

The fall of the SNP even if true does not end the goal of independence.

 

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jake
3 minutes ago, JustinT said:

Calling people 'weirdo's' is a very weird thing to do. Its what the snp do though. Its the surefire sign of dictatorship by those who cannot win an argument by reason. Its all about getting separation no matter what for you isn't it?

Both sides are at the name calling.

 

Take a look at the brexit thread.

 

 

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JustinT
1 minute ago, jake said:

Eh naw.

There is fundamentally a psyche that's Scottish and entrepreneurial.

It can never fulfill its potential as part of the UK.

I do concede that what we have at the moment are very real powers to reflect our national politic .

But imo we need full responsibility.

Where I think I'd disagree with other indy supporters is the way Scotland should manage post indy.

 

That's shite btw the Korean stuff.

Very different history and the blind leading the blind ?

What a fekin cheek .

Scotland has far punched way above its weight in every sector you can mention.

(Even football).

 

Mention any fundamental part of civil governance.

Financial social democray and our influence as a nation is there both good and dark.

I am no flag waver in fact I hate that shite.

But I do believe that we are a country that has characteristics that are worth expressing .

The fall of the SNP even if true does not end the goal of independence.

 

The blind leading the blind.

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JustinT
Just now, jake said:

Both sides are at the name calling.

 

Take a look at the brexit thread.

 

 

Both sides are only at the name calling because of separatists causing high anxiety and division.

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Cruyff
1 hour ago, JustinT said:

Exactly Enzo. 

 

They'd be dictators ruling over an isolated northern entity no longer part of the UK, a pariah nation cut off from its neighbours. Much like North Korea is to its Southern counterparts. The Snp and its supporters couldn't care less though and never engage in debate as to what it would be like post separation as they know fine well it would be carnage. Its like the blind leading the blind, they're beyond help.

Dictators? Pariah Nation? North Korea? :rofl:

 

Dearie me. That has to go down as one of the most embarrassing posts I've read from any Uncle Tam.

 

1132022668_BacktaetheFuture.jpg.gallery.jpg.e2711a71b5b0822fd2623a4d8dd75122.jpgUp there with this spongoloid.....

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jack D and coke

Manky jaicket is here!!

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jack D and coke
Just now, Cruyff said:

Dictators? Pariah Nation? North Korea? :rofl:

 

Dearie me. That has to go down as one of the most embarrassing posts I've read from any Uncle Tam.

 

1132022668_BacktaetheFuture.jpg.gallery.jpg.e2711a71b5b0822fd2623a4d8dd75122.jpgUp there with this spongoloid.....

It’s him :lol:

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Cruyff
Just now, jack D and coke said:

It’s him :lol:

Wouldn't surprise me. What an absolute rocket. :laugh2:

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jake
1 minute ago, JustinT said:

Both sides are only at the name calling because of separatists causing high anxiety and division.

 

3 minutes ago, JustinT said:

The blind leading the blind.

Do you know anything about Scottish history.?

Not being wide btw.

And not the so called kings shit or warriors.

 

Our history with banking?

Our history in shaping politics?

Our rich culture that is stifled  by lack of national confidence?

 

What are you scared of ?

 

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jake
3 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Dictators? Pariah Nation? North Korea? :rofl:

 

Dearie me. That has to go down as one of the most embarrassing posts I've read from any Uncle Tam.

 

1132022668_BacktaetheFuture.jpg.gallery.jpg.e2711a71b5b0822fd2623a4d8dd75122.jpgUp there with this spongoloid.....

You are the equivalent of him .

Uncle Tam ffs ?

And the obsession with robinson is embarrassing .

 

Dont be a side of the same coin

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frankblack
7 hours ago, OTT said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/02/donald-tusk-eu-would-be-enthusiastic-if-scotland-applied-to-rejoin

 

'Tusk: EU would be enthusiastic if Scotland applied to rejoin'.

 

Its absolutely ridiculous to try and argue otherwise whilst prominent EU officials are stopping short of saying its a certainty. This is as good an answer you are ever going to get around such circumstances. 

 

If we get independence and apply for EU membership we will get it. Ludicrous fear-mongering to suggest otherwise. 

Utter bollocks quote which backs up what I said about the EU using Scotland as a pawn in Brexit negotiations.

 

Sturgeon needs to stock up on the bricks and mortar for the border wall needing built at Berwick.

 

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, frankblack said:

Utter bollocks quote which backs up what I said about the EU using Scotland as a pawn in Brexit negotiations.

 

Sturgeon needs to stock up on the bricks and mortar for the border wall needing built at Berwick.

 

Here he is. Know it all :lol: 

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Cruyff
6 minutes ago, jake said:

You are the equivalent of him .

Uncle Tam ffs ?

And the obsession with robinson is embarrassing .

 

Dont be a side of the same coin

If the cap fits. That's no Robinson. 

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BarneyBattles
1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

There are some absolute weirdos on here BB. I feel your anguish at some of the stuff. You'd think Scotland would require Bob Gelfof to drum up support if we became self governing!


This thread is the equivalent of being in Tesco and the guy in front of you at the checkout has a Daily Mail. My heart sinks. 
 

There’s no point in even trying. They’re a lost cause. 

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jack D and coke

North Korea. Beauty. 
:cornette: 

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BarneyBattles
3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

North Korea. Beauty. 
:cornette: 


Acrimonious pariah state😂

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