The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Unknown user]

21 hours ago, Ked said:

Persisting with the Z stuff.

 

Have I ever called you Z before?

Since you came back as Ked I mean

[The Mighty Thor]

4 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Ah, the impossible dream of setting up a bank, beyond the reach of most countries within 6 years.

 

Honestly, what rot.

Aye but what currency will yous have likesy eh?

 

Ansur me that eh?

[manaliveits105]

I’m trying to book next years holidays what dates yon referendumb again ?

[Ron Burgundy]

12 hours ago, Gizmo said:

What do you make of the tories intention to drop the triple lock? Why are our pensions about the worst in Western Europe in one of the world's top economies?

You can slag off folk who naively buy the entire rainbow hoping for the crock of gold at the end, but even so other countries manage to provide far better for their tax payers - so a tempered hope for a bit better than what the miserly tories serve up isn't overly fanciful.  

You do realise I am not defending the Tories in any way. I hate them and the SNP with equal measure.

The state pension is a disgrace. 

Promising to double it which we both know will not happen and certainly not without some sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul is just nonsense and is up there with the Brexit bus.

Everyone wants and hopes for a better future but until the SNP lay out the realistic terms and conditions of what Independence means in money terms to the average tax paying Joe they won't gamble on it being a worse future.

 

I don't give a shit what flag my country uses or have any feelings of loyalty to the Union or to Scotland. My place of birth has the same relevance as me having brown eyes FFS , it's pure chance and nothing I had any control over.

I only give a shit about my kids and if being Independent was going to be better for them then I'd 100% support it. I don't want to take that chance by swapping one bunch of lying racist corrupt scumbags for another version of them. It's like asking the doctor to swap your aids for cancer.

 

And again the first sentence of your reply is whataboutery.  Forget the Tories. Judge the SNP for what they are. 

I want better than what the miserly Tories serve up but just feel that the miserly SNP would actually serve up no better and possibly worse. 

 

You're a decent poster Gizmo and I respect your opinion, hopefully you can respect mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

9 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

A lot of fair points in there KvC.

I think austerity was necessary at that time and savings had to be made after years of Labour largesse that, had it continued, may well have resulted in an IMF bailout.

However,  I agree, the public service bureaucracy would have been a far better target than frontline services. The NHS however, iirc, was ring-fenced from cuts.

It should be free at the point of delivery but only for those who can't afford health insurance. And certainly not for foreign visitors and health tourists. 

No, of course, I agree that free social care for the disabled and those in need should be maintained. 

I guess it's all about priorities but that requires a grown up conversation about how we fund those services.  Ideology should be trumped by practicalities and we have to accept that those who can afford to pay, should be responsible for purchasing health/social care insurance etc.

In addition,  everyone should be responsible for their own spending priorities with help provided where needed. 

A major concern regarding insurance based provision is greed of providers. The US for example appears (I'm no expert) to be a money grubbing nightmare.

Also who decides affordability?

Free at point of need is a must,  we should be looking at our neighbours to see how health and social care is funded,  targeted and provided and take the best bits to overhaul our systems.

This may free up funding to improve our state pension. 👀

 

[pablo]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Aye but what currency will yous have likesy eh?

 

Ansur me that eh?

 

To be fair, that's a great question and entirely relevant to what the two posters were discussing.

 

In 2014, the plan was to use the pound, yes?  So we wouldn't have been able to control monetary policy, interest rates, print money etc. The UK is able to borrow money on the markets at low interest rates, but how could Scotland have done the same? What currency would we have borrowed the money in to pay for the pandemic?

 

Nothing is impossible of course, but furlough and vaccination might have looked a whole lot different if we were a 6 year old country without our own currency.

 

And I know for the hardcore, it's not important, but for most people is really is.

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

To be fair, that's a great question and entirely relevant to what the two posters were discussing.

 

In 2014, the plan was to use the pound, yes?  So we wouldn't have been able to control monetary policy, interest rates, print money etc. The UK is able to borrow money on the markets at low interest rates, but how could Scotland have done the same? What currency would we have borrowed the money in to pay for the pandemic?

 

Nothing is impossible of course, but furlough and vaccination might have looked a whole lot different if we were a 6 year old country without our own currency.

 

And I know for the hardcore, it's not important, but for most people is really is.

 

 

Ah I see, we're shit.

 

Every other Tom, Dick and Latvia can do it, but Scotland, uniquely in this world, needs England to sort stuff for it.

[pablo]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

 

Ah I see, we're shit.

 

Every other Tom, Dick and Latvia can do it, but Scotland, uniquely in this world, needs England to sort stuff for it.

 

I'm not saying that at all. But the broad shoulders of The Treasury have been a godsend over the last 18 months. 

 

 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

I'm not saying that at all. But the broad shoulders of The Treasury have been a godsend over the last 18 months. 

 

 

 

Central bank more like

[AlimOzturk]

29 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

Ah I see, we're shit.

 

Every other Tom, Dick and Latvia can do it, but Scotland, uniquely in this world, needs England to sort stuff for it.

Scotland could stand on her own two feet. However whether or not we would be better off for it nobody knows. Not you, not me. It is a big leap into the darkness which a lot of folk find incredibly uncomfortable 

[Ked]

6 hours ago, Smithee said:

Have I ever called you Z before?

Since you came back as Ked I mean

You said I was zlatan

Zlantanbabe

Then

Z.

So not exactly but the same boat.

Dont know why you seem so nipped with me .

 

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, Ked said:

You said I was zlatan

Zlantanbabe

Then

Z.

So not exactly but the same boat.

Dont know why you seem so nipped with me .

 

 

Think you're projecting a bit there bud, I only asked if I'd ever called Ked Z before

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Think you're projecting a bit there bud, I only asked if I'd ever called Ked Z before

Aye ok then .

[Ron Burgundy]

Jackie Baillie asking the absent Yousaf if it's true kids are being sent to England as paediatric services in Glasgow and Edinburgh are at capacity.

 

Probably Westminster's fault. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, pablo said:

 

I'm not saying that at all. But the broad shoulders of The Treasury have been a godsend over the last 18 months. 

 

 

Those 'broad shoulders' will be looking for all that money back in the coming years from us all. Rightly so.

 

It hasn't been an act of charity or philanthropy.

[pablo]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

Those 'broad shoulders' will be looking for all that money back in the coming years from us all. Rightly so.

 

It hasn't been an act of charity or philanthropy.

 

Absolutely.

 

The deficit will need to come down now.  To get through this, the spending has been astronomical.

[The Mighty Thor]

8 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Absolutely.

 

The deficit will need to come down now.  To get through this, the spending has been astronomical.

The spending had to be. The alternative was pretty grim. 

 

However, personally, I don't think it's a point worth donning a political scarf of one colour or another over it. 

[pablo]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The spending had to be. The alternative was pretty grim. 

 

However, personally, I don't think it's a point worth donning a political scarf of one colour or another over it. 

 

No, I'm sure you don't. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

A major concern regarding insurance based provision is greed of providers. The US for example appears (I'm no expert) to be a money grubbing nightmare.

Also who decides affordability?

Free at point of need is a must,  we should be looking at our neighbours to see how health and social care is funded,  targeted and provided and take the best bits to overhaul our systems.

This may free up funding to improve our state pension. 👀

 

The best European health care systems are of the hybrid variety, with better choices and outcomes than our NHS.

I think there is a treacle of ideology and politics to wade through before we get any type of meaningful reforms. We're still using a model that was designed in the 1940s.

[theshed]

57 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Jackie Baillie asking the absent Yousaf if it's true kids are being sent to England as paediatric services in Glasgow and Edinburgh are at capacity.

 

Probably Westminster's fault. 

 

He’s far too busy tweeting about Afghanistan to worry about what’s he’s paid to do here in Scotland 

[Konrad von Carstein]

13 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The best European health care systems are of the hybrid variety, with better choices and outcomes than our NHS.

I think there is a treacle of ideology and politics to wade through before we get any type of meaningful reforms. We're still using a model that was designed in the 1940s.

A huge concern is the inclination toward free marketry by our current(and most likely next 2 or 3) governments*, and they would, in my opinion, would put profit before care. I guess that sentence is me agreeing with you regarding ideology.

Any review must be non political and has to involve health care professionals and have terms of reference that are adequate to enable a rigorous review to take place.

 

*not meant as Tooooaaarries, just my view of how they would act as it is in their DNA

 

[Taffin]

13 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I know you disagree on this one!

There are also a lot of people who aren't into them running the place, me included. 

I just can't see any way they'd be able to hold all of their vote together. I think a lot of people vote for them for their core cause but also because they're seen as the least worst option, still.

After independence I expect the political vacuum on the left to be filled by an existing fringe party or a new one and many SNP voters will migrate to follow. I also expect that, once clear of the branch office mentality, Scottish labour and libdems will see a resurgence as they find their place. I think Scottish governments will tend to be coalitions, and it's possible the SNP will be involved, but I can't see them having the power they have now.

 

 

I don't vote anymore on it as I live in England but for me the SNP was always just a vehicle to independence and nothing more. I would never had voted for them if that wasn't their goal and once it's delivered if I ever move back it won't be them I'd vote for.

[Beni]

23 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The best European health care systems are of the hybrid variety, with better choices and outcomes than our NHS.

I think there is a treacle of ideology and politics to wade through before we get any type of meaningful reforms. We're still using a model that was designed in the 1940s.

 

I'm sure I posted this previously when you lauded the best health care systems in Europe. Are there countries with better outcomes that spend less than the UK? Or do you just want spending raised to match the higher spending countries?

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Beni

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

Aye ok then .

 

Still the same sparkling wit I see

[Gizmo]

4 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

You do realise I am not defending the Tories in any way. I hate them and the SNP with equal measure.

The state pension is a disgrace. 

Promising to double it which we both know will not happen and certainly not without some sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul is just nonsense and is up there with the Brexit bus.

Everyone wants and hopes for a better future but until the SNP lay out the realistic terms and conditions of what Independence means in money terms to the average tax paying Joe they won't gamble on it being a worse future.

 

I don't give a shit what flag my country uses or have any feelings of loyalty to the Union or to Scotland. My place of birth has the same relevance as me having brown eyes FFS , it's pure chance and nothing I had any control over.

I only give a shit about my kids and if being Independent was going to be better for them then I'd 100% support it. I don't want to take that chance by swapping one bunch of lying racist corrupt scumbags for another version of them. It's like asking the doctor to swap your aids for cancer.

 

And again the first sentence of your reply is whataboutery.  Forget the Tories. Judge the SNP for what they are. 

I want better than what the miserly Tories serve up but just feel that the miserly SNP would actually serve up no better and possibly worse. 

 

You're a decent poster Gizmo and I respect your opinion, hopefully you can respect mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My first sentence was showing the polar opposite, which I'm sure nobody wants. 

I'm not in complete disagreement re your opinion on loyalty. I hate fake patriotism - particularly the brand that is used to get people to go to wars to kill for politicians. I'm actually almost as sick and tired of identity politics as I am of seeing corrupt westminster governments hawking off tax payers money to their mistresses, mates businesses etc and not giving an actual **** about the day job or the people whose lives they should be striving to improve. 

**** the lot of them. 

[Ked]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Still the same sparkling wit I see

Give it a rest will you.

 

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Ked said:

Give it a rest will you.

 

No one's forcing you to engage chuckles, give it a rest any time you want

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 hours ago, Gizmo said:

My first sentence was showing the polar opposite, which I'm sure nobody wants. 

I'm not in complete disagreement re your opinion on loyalty. I hate fake patriotism - particularly the brand that is used to get people to go to wars to kill for politicians. I'm actually almost as sick and tired of identity politics as I am of seeing corrupt westminster governments hawking off tax payers money to their mistresses, mates businesses etc and not giving an actual **** about the day job or the people whose lives they should be striving to improve. 

**** the lot of them. 

And what about the sleaze and corruption within the SNP?? It's important not to conflate confidence with competence. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

It's important not to conflate confidence with competence. 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

26 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

14 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

[Gizmo]

43 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

And what about the sleaze and corruption within the SNP?? It's important not to conflate confidence with competence. 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

 

Great when you herd  the Nats into a corner, they're lost for words and the pictorial safety valve is deployed.  Satisfecho!!

[Gizmo]

24 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Great when you herd  the Nats into a corner, they're lost for words and the pictorial safety valve is deployed.  Satisfecho!!

Mate, you just answered a point with whataboutery. 

You got exactly the response you deserved. 👍

[Enzo Chiefo]

22 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Mate, you just answered a point with whataboutery. 

You got exactly the response you deserved. 👍

"Whataboutery"...again. You were pulled up by Ron, earlier, for that. You responded to his post in which he basically said that regardless of flags or imaginary borders, both the SNP and the Tories were culpable. 

You went off on an anti-WM rant with no acknowledgement of the SNP failings.

I asked you about the SNP because you went hadn't responded to that part of the post.

 

I'll try again; do you accept that , Tories aside  the SNP are also guilty of sleaze, cover ups and assorted failings, with their own share of crooks? Yes or No?

[Ked]

14 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

 

Yours Sincerely 

 

Onlooker

Theres a lot of pointless point scoring on these threads.

 

[Gizmo]

19 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

"Whataboutery"...again. You were pulled up by Ron, earlier, for that. You responded to his post in which he basically said that regardless of flags or imaginary borders, both the SNP and the Tories were culpable. 

You went off on an anti-WM rant with no acknowledgement of the SNP failings.

I asked you about the SNP because you went hadn't responded to that part of the post.

 

I'll try again; do you accept that , Tories aside  the SNP are also guilty of sleaze, cover ups and assorted failings, with their own share of crooks? Yes or No?

Wow, "assorted failings". Chucking that into the mix already displays your discomfiture with any comparison between your beloved tories and the SNP.

The SNP won't even get my vote if Scotland was ever to secure independence. But comparing them to the current tories, is like comparing someone who squashed a few flies with Ted Bundy. 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

6 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Wow, "assorted failings". Chucking that into the mix already displays your discomfiture with any comparison between your beloved tories and the SNP.

The SNP won't even get my vote if Scotland was ever to secure independence. But comparing them to the current tories, is like comparing someone who squashed a few flies with Ted Bundy. 

 

Yes or No?

[Jeffros Furios]

The snp can **** off !! 

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

The snp can **** off !! 

After independence, couldn't agree more

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

Theres a lot of pointless point scoring on these threads.

 

I take it you’re fairly new here?

 

 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

Theres a lot of pointless point scoring on these threads.

 

I take it you’re fairly new here?

 

 

[Ked]

9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I take it you’re fairly new here?

 

 

No.

In so much as I've always read it.

Posted a while back.

It was more another way of saying what the lbj poster said.

 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Ked said:

No.

In so much as I've always read it.

Posted a while back.

It was more another way of saying what the lbj poster said.

 

Petty point scoring on a any thread never mind anything political IS Kickback. 

[Ked]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Petty point scoring on a any thread never mind anything political IS Kickback. 

Last word seems to be what keeps some going.

To be fair theres some really good posts and expression.

And some real gems through links.

 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

Last word seems to be what keeps some going.

To be fair theres some really good posts and expression.

And some real gems through links.

 

👍🏼

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Petty point scoring on a any thread never mind anything political IS Kickback. 

Bollocks it is

[Konrad von Carstein]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Bollocks it is

Yoda you are

[A Boy Named Crow]

6 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Petty point scoring on a any thread never mind anything political IS Kickback. 

The jokes thread,  the memes thread and sometimes the things you've always wondered about thread are good value on here. Most of the rest of it is just intellectual non-entites trying,  and usually spectacularly failing, to out debate each other.

There should really be a blanket ban on debating any kind of current affairs on here.  No politics,  no religion and definitely no covid chat!

[Roxy Hearts]

15 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

"Whataboutery"...again. You were pulled up by Ron, earlier, for that. You responded to his post in which he basically said that regardless of flags or imaginary borders, both the SNP and the Tories were culpable. 

You went off on an anti-WM rant with no acknowledgement of the SNP failings.

I asked you about the SNP because you went hadn't responded to that part of the post.

 

I'll try again; do you accept that , Tories aside  the SNP are also guilty of sleaze, cover ups and assorted failings, with their own share of crooks? Yes or No?

All of them are sleazy. It's about picking the least worst! The SNP are not warmongering imperialists and don't trash talk Scotland.