The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Seymour M Hersh]

41 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

I'm sure that the left wing judiciary will do the right thing should it come before them...

 

Total fail there Konnie. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

So you're cool with these figures? How can you be sure? Have you done much homework on them? Can you be sure it's not just fear mongering and propaganda?

Studied them quite a bit actually.  Expenditure is our achilles heel, particularly on health & welfare, which makes up a huge chunk of our spending.  They make for interesting reading.

I've yet to hear anyone from the SNP challenge them ..and, as you are well aware, they are black belts in the art of whinging and manufactured grievance.

[Roxy Hearts]

23 minutes ago, Ked said:

They are independently assessed if that helps.

 

By whom? Ruth Davidson!

[Unknown user]

29 minutes ago, Ked said:

They are independently assessed if that helps.

 

 

Oh I couldn't care less myself Z, just pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming figures are being manipulated, you can't trust governments, they're conspiring against us on one hand, and salivating over the trustworthy government reporting when you fancy it on the other.

[Enzo Chiefo]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Oh I couldn't care less myself Z, just pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming figures are being manipulated, you can't trust governments, they're conspiring against us on one hand, and salivating over the trustworthy government reporting when you fancy it on the other.

And you're doing exactly the same in reverse.

[jack D and coke]

Richard Murphy suggest it’s a load of old shite. As per…

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/08/18/why-gers-is-wrong-yet-again/

 

[jack D and coke]

https://newsnationusa.com/news/world/uk/richard-murphy-why-gers-is-a-con-trick-intended-to-make-scotland-look-bad/

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

And you're doing exactly the same in reverse.

 

No I'm not, and you've done this before, the fake counter.

What numbers do I defend? What numbers do I attack? I haven't said anything about GERS except to point out how much you lap up government figures when it suits.

[Ked]

6 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Oh I couldn't care less myself Z, just pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming figures are being manipulated, you can't trust governments, they're conspiring against us on one hand, and salivating over the trustworthy government reporting when you fancy it on the other.

Persisting with the Z stuff.

 

[Ked]

7 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

By whom? Ruth Davidson!

I hope not.

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

No I'm not, and you've done this before, the fake counter.

What numbers do I defend? What numbers do I attack? I haven't said anything about GERS except to point out how much you lap up government figures when it suits.

You were querying whether I believed official figures,  produced by the Scottish Govt, about the financial position of the country. 

Yes, I do. 

I would be sceptical about modelling which forecast GERS next year or in 5 years. That is entirely consistent with my approach on COVID figures.

 

Again you're resorting to "back to front" thinking,  which all Independence supporters deploy.

They have already arrived, in their minds, at a desired outcome. They then have to find arguments and evidence to "prove" that is the right outcome.

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You were querying whether I believed official figures,  produced by the Scottish Govt, about the financial position of the country. 

Yes, I do. 

I would be sceptical about modelling which forecast GERS next year or in 5 years. That is entirely consistent with my approach on COVID figures.

 

Again you're resorting to "back to front" thinking,  which all Independence supporters deploy.

They have already arrived, in their minds, at a desired outcome. They then have to find arguments and evidence to "prove" that is the right outcome.

 

 

And you made up a fake accusation about me to justify your own hypocrisy. Again.

 

You're completely wrong, and you do what you always do - paint me with some generalised picture of what you reckon independence supporters think.

 

I'm not resorting to back to front thinking, I'm not trying to prove anything, I don't bother getting into easily manipulated and fudged figures trying to prove what I've already decided - that's you, Mr Confirmation Bias.

 

Scotland should be free to choose it's own government and make its own decisions, and not have to see what England's electorate fancies next.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Smithee

[Konrad von Carstein]

8 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Total fail there Konnie. 

From you at the time

[Ron Burgundy]

There are posters on here who make the anti -vax brigade look sensible.

 

They just refuse to believe anything they don't want to.

[Konrad von Carstein]

30 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

There are posters on here who make the anti -vax brigade look sensible.

 

They just refuse to believe anything they don't want to.

Name and shame.

Name. And. Shame....👀

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

There are posters on here who make the anti -vax brigade look sensible.

 

They just refuse to believe anything they don't want to.

What are Unionists like, eh?😉

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

From you at the time

 

I stand by what I said but you still failed konnie my dear. 

[Ron Burgundy]

32 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

What are Unionists like, eh?😉

Honestly is embarrassing.

Imagine the Toalies had billboards up during an election promising to double the state pension with no explanation as to how they would afford it just so long as they got your vote. They would rightly be laughed at and ridiculed like UKIPS bus.

 

Scottish/British politics is a shambles. Every party should be called out for their lies and corruption regardless but some just play the whataboutery game.

 

If the latest GERS figures are incorrect I fully expect wee Jimmy to be all over them like a tramp on a bag of discarded chips.

 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

And you made up a fake accusation about me to justify your own hypocrisy. Again.

 

You're completely wrong, and you do what you always do - paint me with some generalised picture of what you reckon independence supporters think.

 

I'm not resorting to back to front thinking, I'm not trying to prove anything, I don't bother getting into easily manipulated and fudged figures trying to prove what I've already decided - that's you, Mr Confirmation Bias.

 

Scotland should be free to choose it's own government and make its own decisions, and not have to see what England's electorate fancies next.

Your hypocrisy is truly staggering.  You beg not to be judged or accused, while poring over the miniuitiae of every sentence, working out motives of others and looking for faux offence.

Then you accuse me "Mr Confirmation Bias", "Your hypocrisy" etc.

Believe me, to be accused of "confirmation bias" by any Scot Nat doesn't just take the biscuit but the entire McVitties entity!

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Your hypocrisy is truly staggering.  You beg not to be judged or accused, while poring over the miniuitiae of every sentence, working out motives of others and looking for faux offence.

Then you accuse me "Mr Confirmation Bias", "Your hypocrisy" etc.

Believe me, to be accused of "confirmation bias" by any Scot Nat doesn't just take the biscuit but the entire McVitties entity!

 

I don't beg anything bud, and I think you need a wee cup of cocoa.

 

My stance doesn't need proved or confirmation bias- Scotland deserves to stand on its own two feet and make its own decisions, England's electorate shouldn't decide our future.

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I stand by what I said but you still failed konnie my dear. 

Good for you sweet cheeks... Chemical Ali would be proud...Failed hard enough for you to repond but...

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Honestly is embarrassing.

Imagine the Toalies had billboards up during an election promising to double the state pension with no explanation as to how they would afford it just so long as they got your vote. They would rightly be laughed at and ridiculed like UKIPS bus.

 

Scottish/British politics is a shambles. Every party should be called out for their lies and corruption regardless but some just play the whataboutery game.

 

If the latest GERS figures are incorrect I fully expect wee Jimmy to be all over them like a tramp on a bag of discarded chips.

 

 

All this under the Union! We may have a devolved government but it's stifled by Westminster at times, especially the economy. They would love to see it fail in Scotland to prove a point. They are no friends of the Scottish people or the folk who live here. IMO. 

 

We get the same old garbage like there's no oil but new fields found or we will charge you for electricity to put it on the grid. We want your water and renewable energy but also charge you for that! 

 

They should all be called out for lies!

 

[Ron Burgundy]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

All this under the Union! We may have a devolved government but it's stifled by Westminster at times, especially the economy. They would love to see it fail in Scotland to prove a point. They are no friends of the Scottish people or the folk who live here. IMO. 

 

We get the same old garbage like there's no oil but new fields found or we will charge you for electricity to put it on the grid. We want your water and renewable energy but also charge you for that! 

 

They should all be called out for lies!

 

I agree wholeheartedly. All lies should be called out. Promises that can never be kept should be laughed at.

 

What do you make of the promise to double state pensions in an independent Scotland? Do you not find that embarrassing and scary that they will use something so fanciful to trick thick people into voting for them. And it worked. I actually work beside a guy who said he was going to vote for them for that reason. I didn't even attempt to discuss it with him.

 

I get folk want independence but surely there comes a point when you realise that your only vehicle to get it is being driven by nut jobs with no actual interest in Scotland post independence. They couldn't care less if we end up like Afghanistan as long as we are free of the nasty English. 

 

What the independence movement needs is a party that is run by grown ups who can actually put forward a viable financial case for it and also include with the pros all the cons. There is no way on earth the SNP will achieve their end goal until they realise that apart from their core nutjob support people need real answers not grievance politics.

 

People could then make a real decision that is not based on whataboutery and hate.

 

As for being stifled by Westminster they cannot even accept all the powers granted to them years ago and thats from a Party that thought they could be fully independent in a couple of years after a referendum.

 

They are every bit as crooked as the Tories. Both scumbag parties.

[Seymour M Hersh]

3 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Good for you sweet cheeks... Chemical Ali would be proud...Failed hard enough for you to repond but...

 

Konnie, Konnie, Konnie. Oh dear Konnie. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

20 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Konnie, Konnie, Konnie. Oh dear Konnie. 

[manaliveits105]

2 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I agree wholeheartedly. All lies should be called out. Promises that can never be kept should be laughed at.

 

What do you make of the promise to double state pensions in an independent Scotland? Do you not find that embarrassing and scary that they will use something so fanciful to trick thick people into voting for them. And it worked. I actually work beside a guy who said he was going to vote for them for that reason. I didn't even attempt to discuss it with him.

 

I get folk want independence but surely there comes a point when you realise that your only vehicle to get it is being driven by nut jobs with no actual interest in Scotland post independence. They couldn't care less if we end up like Afghanistan as long as we are free of the nasty English. 

 

What the independence movement needs is a party that is run by grown ups who can actually put forward a viable financial case for it and also include with the pros all the cons. There is no way on earth the SNP will achieve their end goal until they realise that apart from their core nutjob support people need real answers not grievance politics.

 

People could then make a real decision that is not based on whataboutery and hate.

 

As for being stifled by Westminster they cannot even accept all the powers granted to them years ago and thats from a Party that thought they could be fully independent in a couple of years after a referendum.

 

They are every bit as crooked as the Tories. Both scumbag parties.

[Gizmo]

5 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Your hypocrisy is truly staggering.  You beg not to be judged or accused, while poring over the miniuitiae of every sentence, working out motives of others and looking for faux offence.

Then you accuse me "Mr Confirmation Bias", "Your hypocrisy" etc.

Believe me, to be accused of "confirmation bias" by any Scot Nat doesn't just take the biscuit but the entire McVitties entity!

Says the walking Tory election pamphlet. 🤣

[Gizmo]

3 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I agree wholeheartedly. All lies should be called out. Promises that can never be kept should be laughed at.

 

What do you make of the promise to double state pensions in an independent Scotland? Do you not find that embarrassing and scary that they will use something so fanciful to trick thick people into voting for them. And it worked. I actually work beside a guy who said he was going to vote for them for that reason. I didn't even attempt to discuss it with him.

 

What do you make of the tories intention to drop the triple lock? Why are our pensions about the worst in Western Europe in one of the world's top economies?

You can slag off folk who naively buy the entire rainbow hoping for the crock of gold at the end, but even so other countries manage to provide far better for their tax payers - so a tempered hope for a bit better than what the miserly tories serve up isn't overly fanciful.  

[Konrad von Carstein]

25 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

What do you make of the tories intention to drop the triple lock? Why are our pensions about the worst in Western Europe in one of the world's top economies?

You can slag off folk who naively buy the entire rainbow hoping for the crock of gold at the end, but even so other countries manage to provide far better for their tax payers - so a tempered hope for a bit better than what the miserly tories serve up isn't overly fanciful.  

[jack D and coke]

29 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

What do you make of the tories intention to drop the triple lock? Why are our pensions about the worst in Western Europe in one of the world's top economies?

You can slag off folk who naively buy the entire rainbow hoping for the crock of gold at the end, but even so other countries manage to provide far better for their tax payers - so a tempered hope for a bit better than what the miserly tories serve up isn't overly fanciful.  

[The Mighty Thor]

34 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

What do you make of the tories intention to drop the triple lock? Why are our pensions about the worst in Western Europe in one of the world's top economies?

You can slag off folk who naively buy the entire rainbow hoping for the crock of gold at the end, but even so other countries manage to provide far better for their tax payers - so a tempered hope for a bit better than what the miserly tories serve up isn't overly fanciful.  

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I agree wholeheartedly. All lies should be called out. Promises that can never be kept should be laughed at.

 

What do you make of the promise to double state pensions in an independent Scotland? Do you not find that embarrassing and scary that they will use something so fanciful to trick thick people into voting for them. And it worked. I actually work beside a guy who said he was going to vote for them for that reason. I didn't even attempt to discuss it with him.

 

I get folk want independence but surely there comes a point when you realise that your only vehicle to get it is being driven by nut jobs with no actual interest in Scotland post independence. They couldn't care less if we end up like Afghanistan as long as we are free of the nasty English. 

 

What the independence movement needs is a party that is run by grown ups who can actually put forward a viable financial case for it and also include with the pros all the cons. There is no way on earth the SNP will achieve their end goal until they realise that apart from their core nutjob support people need real answers not grievance politics.

 

People could then make a real decision that is not based on whataboutery and hate.

 

As for being stifled by Westminster they cannot even accept all the powers granted to them years ago and thats from a Party that thought they could be fully independent in a couple of years after a referendum.

 

They are every bit as crooked as the Tories. Both scumbag parties.

There are many reasons for voting for independence and it's a fairly natural way for me to think. I look at other countries and they manage well without the resources we have.

 

I don't think about the SNP being in power in a self governing Scotland.  I think about a Scottish General Election and the choices of whom I could vote for that best suits my political leanings.

 

No hate from me as I have English family and friends. England is a great country with decent folk like ourselves.

 

Not sure about the pension arrangements but not having nuclear weapons is a start.

 

Westminster and Holyrood is full of anti Scottish, loathsome individuals and a few nutjobs!

 

It's not whataboutery either, it's challenging the hypocrisy.

 

Independence for me is trying to create a society for the greater good. Not one based on class and titles

[JackLadd]

4 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Neanderthal!

 

Cultist.

[Konrad von Carstein]

Just now, JackLadd said:

 

Cultist.

Bra-vo... Idiot!

[JackLadd]

2 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Bra-vo... Idiot!

 

Go back to your National. Best comic DC Thomson never put out.

[AlimOzturk]

12 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

And you made up a fake accusation about me to justify your own hypocrisy. Again.

 

You're completely wrong, and you do what you always do - paint me with some generalised picture of what you reckon independence supporters think.

 

I'm not resorting to back to front thinking, I'm not trying to prove anything, I don't bother getting into easily manipulated and fudged figures trying to prove what I've already decided - that's you, Mr Confirmation Bias.

 

Scotland should be free to choose it's own government and make its own decisions, and not have to see what England's electorate fancies next.

We had a chance in 2014 to choose our own destiny and govern ourselves exclusively. We voted, comprehensively, to stay with the union.  
 

Whether or not we deserve or should be given another shot at Indy ref 2 is a different debate. However there can be no arguing Scotland chose what have and nobody else. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by AlimOzturk

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

We had a chance in 2014 to choose our own destiny and govern ourselves exclusively. We voted, comprehensively, to stay with the union.  
 

Whether or not we deserve or should be given another shot at Indy ref 2 is a different debate. However there can be no arguing Scotland chose what have and nobody else. 

 

I don't know what difference that makes. The UK has gone to absolute shit since then and promises made that swayed voters have been broken.

 

This is a conversation that will never go away, Scotland should be free.

[AlimOzturk]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't know what difference that makes. The UK has gone to absolute shit since then and promises made that swayed voters have been broken.

 

This is a conversation that will never go away, Scotland should be free.

Scotland is free. We were free to make the choice in 2014 and we are free to push for another. The words “once in generation” springs to mind however. Not everyone in this country want a independence vote and I think the hard core pro Indy crew forget this simple fact. I haven’t seen a recent poll on this. 
 

[Unknown user]

20 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Scotland is free. We were free to make the choice in 2014 and we are free to push for another. The words “once in generation” springs to mind however. Not everyone in this country want a independence vote and I think the hard core pro Indy crew forget this simple fact. I haven’t seen a recent poll on this. 
 

 

I don't want an independence vote either, I want Scotland to be a nation state in it's own right.

 

I don't represent anyone but myself, I'm not part of some tactical move and I'm not arsed if I'm the only person that thinks it - Scotland should be free and it's government should be decided by the Scottish electorate alone.

[Konrad von Carstein]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't want an independence vote either, I want Scotland to be a nation state in it's own right.

 

I don't represent anyone but myself, I'm not part of some tactical move and I'm not arsed if I'm the only person that thinks it - Scotland should be free and it's government should be decided by the Scottish electorate alone.

[Roxy Hearts]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't want an independence vote either, I want Scotland to be a nation state in it's own right.

 

I don't represent anyone but myself, I'm not part of some tactical move and I'm not arsed if I'm the only person that thinks it - Scotland should be free and it's government should be decided by the Scottish electorate alone.

I don't understand how people don't understand! The propaganda, hysteria, misinformation and the rest from the last referendum should be a lesson. 

[AlimOzturk]

16 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't want an independence vote either, I want Scotland to be a nation state in it's own right.

 

I don't represent anyone but myself, I'm not part of some tactical move and I'm not arsed if I'm the only person that thinks it - Scotland should be free and it's government should be decided by the Scottish electorate alone.

If the Scottish people  wanted the Scottish electorate to be governed by its own government alone then the people should have voted for it when given the opportunity. This nonsense about “freedom” is just that - nonsense. What is freedom anyways? Nobody is truly free. In fact I would argue that under this SNP government we have less ability to pracrice free speech than anywhere else in the UK. Hardly freedom when someone can be arrested in his own home for expressing an opinion. Hardly free when the SNP, Scotland’s leading Indy party are proposing to keep emergency powers permanently so they can keep the population under its control. 
 

No point in saying that this would change when we become independent. No it wouldn’t. The same folk are going to be running the country. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 hours ago, Gizmo said:

What do you make of the tories intention to drop the triple lock? Why are our pensions about the worst in Western Europe in one of the world's top economies?

You can slag off folk who naively buy the entire rainbow hoping for the crock of gold at the end, but even so other countries manage to provide far better for their tax payers - so a tempered hope for a bit better than what the miserly tories serve up isn't overly fanciful.  

Why do the same people who rail against austerity - as if being austere is somehow baaad - also support triple lock pensions, unlimited immigration, national oil funds, increased welfare, free university education, free social care, an international health service that doesn't charge health tourists and 4 day weeks while also screeching about cuts to foreign aid , including to countries like India and China.

 

Economic illiteracy abounds.

 

People should be responsible for a large part of their own retirement savings. Multi-national companies like Deliveroo, Uber Eats, Apple and Google don't become filthy rich without subscriptions from individuals who could reconfigure their priorities. 

 

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

If the Scottish people  wanted the Scottish electorate to be governed by its own government alone then the people should have voted for it when given the opportunity. This nonsense about “freedom” is just that - nonsense. What is freedom anyways? Nobody is truly free. In fact I would argue that under this SNP government we have less ability to pracrice free speech than anywhere else in the UK. Hardly freedom when someone can be arrested in his own home for expressing an opinion. Hardly free when the SNP, Scotland’s leading Indy party are proposing to keep emergency powers permanently so they can keep the population under its control. 
 

No point in saying that this would change when we become independent. No it wouldn’t. The same folk are going to be running the country. 

 

It's likely we'd see many of the same faces but there's no way the SNP can hold together post independence.

 

They're a Hodge podge of different ideologies and personalities, bound together by a single main cause. Everything the SNP do in government is a compromise because they don't really have a coherent single ideology, and it leads to what we see (along with being in for so long of course).

 

They're not lefty enough for the left within the party, not righty enough for the right, too wishy washy for some, too intrusive for others. After independence there's no way it can be the force it is now, the different ideologies will collect together between existing and new parties.

 

Freedom, to me, is being an independent nation state that doesn't rely on another country's electorate to decide it's direction.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Smithee

[Konrad von Carstein]

17 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Why do the same people who rail against austerity - as if being austere is somehow baaad - also support triple lock pensions, unlimited immigration, national oil funds, increased welfare, free university education, free social care, an international health service that doesn't charge health tourists and 4 day weeks while also screeching about cuts to foreign aid , including to countries like India and China.

 

Economic illiteracy abounds.

 

People should be responsible for a large part of their own retirement savings. Multi-national companies like Deliveroo, Uber Eats, Apple and Google don't become filthy rich without subscriptions from individuals who could reconfigure their priorities. 

 

The conservatives austerity measures failed us as a society. Under investment in key public services helped no one, this was brought into focus at the start of the pandemic. (a better target would have been the bureaucracy endemic in public service).

Our pension is one of the worst in the developed world (acknowledging other countries do certainly things differently to afford thiers)

Education should be a right in a free society, not the reserve of the rich.

Free social care for the elderly, disabled etc is bad in your book?

A health service free at point of delivery should be protected (imo)

Kind of agree re foreign aid, this should be targeted, India has a space programme ffs!

Multi nationals should pay their way via a fair but stringent tax obligation

Edited August 19, 2021 by Konrad von Carstein

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

I strongly disagree with this. 
 

If independence is to happen, it will be under the snp watch. They will be the party that is in power, immediately, post Indy. They will shape the country in the short - medium term, they even wrote a big paper at the last referendum, telling you what Indy Scotland would be 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

The vote isn’t suddenly going to disappear once indys achieved. They are a brand, too much power, there to let that disappear easily. They have a huge head start over existing parties and any new parties in short to medium term, 

 

They are a left of centre nationalist party. After Indy they would evolve, as will every party,  but they still be left of centre nationalist party and attract whatever vote that is. 
 

They were certainly left enough to attract labour vote. Not right enough for the Tories vote granted, 

 

Personally think Scotland is (c) onsevstive. Politics would evolve post Indy but SNP would be by far the biggest and most popular at least initially in post Indy Scotland. 

 

Scotland ain’t going to vote Indy and go time for the tories/libs/green/lab 😂

 

As an aside, as it’s thread proved, most people have no ducking clue what they are voting about and are football fans in the politics stakes too, 

 

Post Indy sNP probably get 8-10 years before another party elected imo. Couldn’t even protect who that party would be but, if forced, I go for enzo’s chiefs😂

 

I know you disagree on this one!

There are also a lot of people who aren't into them running the place, me included. 

I just can't see any way they'd be able to hold all of their vote together. I think a lot of people vote for them for their core cause but also because they're seen as the least worst option, still.

After independence I expect the political vacuum on the left to be filled by an existing fringe party or a new one and many SNP voters will migrate to follow. I also expect that, once clear of the branch office mentality, Scottish labour and libdems will see a resurgence as they find their place. I think Scottish governments will tend to be coalitions, and it's possible the SNP will be involved, but I can't see them having the power they have now.

[Enzo Chiefo]

43 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

The conservatives austerity measures failed us as a society. Under investment in key public services helped no one, this was brought into focus at the start of the pandemic. (a better target would have been the bureaucracy endemic in public service).

Our pension is one of the worst in the developed world (acknowledging other countries do certainly things differently to afford thiers)

Education should be a right in a free society, not the reserve of the rich.

Free social care for the elderly, disabled etc is bad in your book?

A health service free at point of delivery should be protected (imo)

Kind of agree re foreign aid, this should be targeted, India has a space programme ffs!

Multi nationals should pay their way via a fair but stringent tax obligation

A lot of fair points in there KvC.

I think austerity was necessary at that time and savings had to be made after years of Labour largesse that, had it continued, may well have resulted in an IMF bailout.

However,  I agree, the public service bureaucracy would have been a far better target than frontline services. The NHS however, iirc, was ring-fenced from cuts.

It should be free at the point of delivery but only for those who can't afford health insurance. And certainly not for foreign visitors and health tourists. 

No, of course, I agree that free social care for the disabled and those in need should be maintained. 

I guess it's all about priorities but that requires a grown up conversation about how we fund those services.  Ideology should be trumped by practicalities and we have to accept that those who can afford to pay, should be responsible for purchasing health/social care insurance etc.

In addition,  everyone should be responsible for their own spending priorities with help provided where needed. 

[Gizmo]

2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Why do the same people who rail against austerity - as if being austere is somehow baaad - also support triple lock pensions, unlimited immigration, national oil funds, increased welfare, free university education, free social care, an international health service that doesn't charge health tourists and 4 day weeks while also screeching about cuts to foreign aid , including to countries like India and China.

 

Economic illiteracy abounds.

 

People should be responsible for a large part of their own retirement savings. Multi-national companies like Deliveroo, Uber Eats, Apple and Google don't become filthy rich without subscriptions from individuals who could reconfigure their priorities. 

 

 

53 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

A lot of fair points in there KvC.

I think austerity was necessary at that time and savings had to be made after years of Labour largesse that, had it continued, may well have resulted in an IMF bailout.

However,  I agree, the public service bureaucracy would have been a far better target than frontline services. The NHS however, iirc, was ring-fenced from cuts.

It should be free at the point of delivery but only for those who can't afford health insurance. And certainly not for foreign visitors and health tourists. 

No, of course, I agree that free social care for the disabled and those in need should be maintained. 

I guess it's all about priorities but that requires a grown up conversation about how we fund those services.  Ideology should be trumped by practicalities and we have to accept that those who can afford to pay, should be responsible for purchasing health/social care insurance etc.

In addition,  everyone should be responsible for their own spending priorities with help provided where needed. 

No doubt you'll have the bunting out when the losses due to covid* are socialised.

 

[JackLadd]

How would Scotland have raised the near £3bn 18 month furlough payments if Salmond had won in 2014? Don't tell me we'd borrow it because that needs a central bank issuing bonds to a willing market or some dodgy outfit like Goldman Sachs doing an off the books deal at exorbitant rates. I'm sure wee Nic would have a plan. A keen business mind n that.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

How would Scotland have raised the near £3bn 18 month furlough payments if Salmond had won in 2014? Don't tell me we'd borrow it because that needs a central bank issuing bonds to a willing market or some dodgy outfit like Goldman Sachs doing an off the books deal at exorbitant rates. I'm sure wee Nic would have a plan. A keen business mind n that.

 

Ah, the impossible dream of setting up a bank, beyond the reach of most countries within 6 years.

 

Honestly, what rot.