Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Back to 2005]

1 minute ago, millerjames398 said:

Brilliant film mate, i was probably a far too young to watch it when it was released..but it was my mums turn to pick the friday vhs for us..think she realized she'd made a terrible mistake in the 1st 5 minutes😂..no kids should be whistling along to black laces " were havin a gangbang"😖😂😂😂

😂

[Montgomery Brewster]

42 minutes ago, millerjames398 said:

The patters absolutely vintage in rita sue, "ive got an erection..whats an erection..its an 'ard on"😂😂😂

An absolute classic film. A leg end !

[JudyJudyJudy]

25 minutes ago, millerjames398 said:

Brilliant film mate, i was probably a far too young to watch it when it was released..but it was my mums turn to pick the friday vhs for us..think she realized she'd made a terrible mistake in the 1st 5 minutes😂..no kids should be whistling along to black laces " were havin a gangbang"😖😂😂😂

👍

25 minutes ago, Back to 2005 said:

Haha that's the one! They don't write them like that anymore!! 

Classic song 

[millerjames398]

5 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

👍

Classic song 

"We'd like you to join us its part of the fun..oh a gangbang is the thing to do, but it takes more than one" ivor novello award material 👍🏼😂

[Konrad von Carstein]

31 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said:

 

Linda Lusardi. An utter skelp. 

 

The amount of energy I wasted looking at her. 

 

 

Is that what the hip folks call custard cannon ammunition these days?

[The Mighty Thor]

41 minutes ago, Back to 2005 said:

Large freedom rally turnout in Melbourne as they enter their 5th lockdown. 

Who do the Aussies look to as their Right Said Fred? 

 

Men at Work? 

The remaining members of INXS?

[Taffin]

47 minutes ago, Back to 2005 said:

Large freedom rally turnout in Melbourne as they enter their 5th lockdown. 

 

Australia have got their response to the virus spot on though. We should have done the same. Thousands out breaking lockdown and police overrun...always the sign of success.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

56 minutes ago, Back to 2005 said:

Large freedom rally turnout in Melbourne as they enter their 5th lockdown. 

Which finished today. These dipshits are ****wits no one pays any attention to.

 

PS It ended here with 3 days in a row of zero community transmission. Which is quite an effort against Delta (thanks Sydney)

Edited July 27, 2021 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[redjambo]

Scottish numbers: 27 July 2021

Summary

• 1,044 new cases of COVID-19 reported [+44; down from 1,604 a week ago]
• 20,594 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results [+6,959]
  • 5.6% of these were positive [-2.4%]
• 7 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive [+7]
• 63 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [-2]
• 472 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [-3]
• 4,000,658 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 3,108,928 have received their second dose [+2,031; +16,826]

[Back to 2005]

16 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Australia have got their response to the virus spot on though. We should have done the same. Thousands out breaking lockdown and police overrun...always the sign of success.

I politely disagree. Guess you might feel different if it was your business that went under. 

 

[Back to 2005]

12 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Which finished today. These dipshits are ****wits no one pays any attention to.

 

PS It ended here with 3 days in a row of zero community transmission. Which is quite an effort against Delta (thanks Sydney)

Seem to be growing in number so might be hard to ignore once you go in to lockdown 10.

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, Back to 2005 said:

I politely disagree. Guess you might feel different if it was your business that went under. 

 

 

I was being sarcastic. The Australian approach is completely unsustainable. It was a good idea for 6 months or something but nearly 18 months on to still be using lockdowns is a recipe for disaster imo.

[redjambo]

Today's trend stats.

 

		7-day per-100,000 cases
Council Area	WHO	Today	Yesterday			25 Jul	24 Jul	23 Jul	22 Jul	21 Jul	...	1 May
Scotland		176	186	-10		194	204	222	232	237	...	22
West Dunbartonshire	4	237	238	-1		238	229	247	227	228	...	28
North Lanarkshire	4	226	238	-12		254	260	288	285	279	...	40
Glasgow City	4	224	229	-5		233	244	261	269	275	...	33
East Lothian	4	216	228	-12		245	255	278	291	289	...	5
Midlothian	4	211	224	-13		257	277	318	361	380	...	10
Inverclyde	4	197	204	-7		199	209	219	226	228	...	15
Na h-Eileanan Siar	4	192	162	+30		147	143	151	142	120	...	0
West Lothian	4	188	194	-6		200	223	254	264	251	...	26
Clackmannanshire	4	187	183	+4		189	193	203	229	221	...	14
Edinburgh City	4	183	203	-20		223	239	261	288	293	...	27
Dundee City	4	182	201	-19		202	238	245	277	301	...	13
Stirling	4	182	169	+13		173	164	188	184	180	...	11
South Lanarkshire	4	180	189	-9		192	199	210	205	212	...	18
Fife	4	171	188	-17		197	206	226	249	260	...	32
Falkirk	4	165	168	-3		186	189	220	220	216	...	23
East Ayrshire	4	164	172	-8		185	189	185	185	178	...	45
Renfrewshire	4	163	166	-3		178	191	210	226	250	...	20
Shetland Islands	4	171	171	0		153	157	157	135	183	...	0
East Renfrewshire	4	160	182	-22		207	236	259	253	253	...	24
North Ayrshire	4	156	154	+2		142	127	133	132	122	...	17
Aberdeen City	4	152	165	-13		172	178	195	204	209	...	13
Argyll & Bute	4	150	176	-26		177	165	183	176	168	...	7
Scottish Borders	4	150	162	-12		155	148	155	177	179	...	6
South Ayrshire	3	144	151	-7		169	178	200	204	198	...	25
Moray	3	139	137	+2		135	141	157	150	150	...	65
Angus	3	133	157	-24		161	178	189	209	233	...	7
Highland	3	133	137	-4		138	149	160	168	183	...	9
Perth & Kinross	3	132	154	-22		167	182	208	238	239	...	22
Dumfries & Galloway	3	130	146	-16		148	146	169	177	181	...	19
East Dunbartonshire	3	130	137	-7		169	190	215	224	248	...	51
Aberdeenshire	3	108	113	-5		116	121	132	137	142	...	8
Orkney Islands	3	54	49	+5		54	36	31	36	36	...	0
7-day averages		Today	Yesterday			25 Jul	24 Jul	23 Jul	22 Jul	21 Jul	...	1 May
Tests		23829	23612	+217		23901	24079	24904	25058	25271	...	18484
Cases		1372	1452	-80		1518	1589	1734	1811	1848	...	171
Positivity rate %		6.4	6.8	-0.4		7.0	7.3	7.7	8.0	8.1	...	1.1
Deaths		7.6	8.4	-0.8		8.4	8.4	7.4	7.3	6.9	...	1.3
All Vaccinations		18581	18576	+5		19217	19217	19061	19217	19175	...	45346
1st Dose		2318	2382	-64		3012	3551	4118	4768	5518	...	6677
2nd Dose		16263	16194	+69		16205	15666	14943	14449	13657	...	38669
All in hospital		489	497	-8		506	510	516	520	529	...	81
Non-ICU		429	440	-11		451	458	466	471	481	...	70
ICU		60	57	+3		55	52	50	49	48	...	11

[milky_26]

7 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Today's trend stats.

 

		7-day per-100,000 cases
Council Area	WHO	Today	Yesterday			25 Jul	24 Jul	23 Jul	22 Jul	21 Jul	...	1 May
Scotland		176	186	-10		194	204	222	232	237	...	22
West Dunbartonshire	4	237	238	-1		238	229	247	227	228	...	28
North Lanarkshire	4	226	238	-12		254	260	288	285	279	...	40
Glasgow City	4	224	229	-5		233	244	261	269	275	...	33
East Lothian	4	216	228	-12		245	255	278	291	289	...	5
Midlothian	4	211	224	-13		257	277	318	361	380	...	10
Inverclyde	4	197	204	-7		199	209	219	226	228	...	15
Na h-Eileanan Siar	4	192	162	+30		147	143	151	142	120	...	0
West Lothian	4	188	194	-6		200	223	254	264	251	...	26
Clackmannanshire	4	187	183	+4		189	193	203	229	221	...	14
Edinburgh City	4	183	203	-20		223	239	261	288	293	...	27
Dundee City	4	182	201	-19		202	238	245	277	301	...	13
Stirling	4	182	169	+13		173	164	188	184	180	...	11
South Lanarkshire	4	180	189	-9		192	199	210	205	212	...	18
Fife	4	171	188	-17		197	206	226	249	260	...	32
Falkirk	4	165	168	-3		186	189	220	220	216	...	23
East Ayrshire	4	164	172	-8		185	189	185	185	178	...	45
Renfrewshire	4	163	166	-3		178	191	210	226	250	...	20
Shetland Islands	4	171	171	0		153	157	157	135	183	...	0
East Renfrewshire	4	160	182	-22		207	236	259	253	253	...	24
North Ayrshire	4	156	154	+2		142	127	133	132	122	...	17
Aberdeen City	4	152	165	-13		172	178	195	204	209	...	13
Argyll & Bute	4	150	176	-26		177	165	183	176	168	...	7
Scottish Borders	4	150	162	-12		155	148	155	177	179	...	6
South Ayrshire	3	144	151	-7		169	178	200	204	198	...	25
Moray	3	139	137	+2		135	141	157	150	150	...	65
Angus	3	133	157	-24		161	178	189	209	233	...	7
Highland	3	133	137	-4		138	149	160	168	183	...	9
Perth & Kinross	3	132	154	-22		167	182	208	238	239	...	22
Dumfries & Galloway	3	130	146	-16		148	146	169	177	181	...	19
East Dunbartonshire	3	130	137	-7		169	190	215	224	248	...	51
Aberdeenshire	3	108	113	-5		116	121	132	137	142	...	8
Orkney Islands	3	54	49	+5		54	36	31	36	36	...	0
7-day averages		Today	Yesterday			25 Jul	24 Jul	23 Jul	22 Jul	21 Jul	...	1 May
Tests		23829	23612	+217		23901	24079	24904	25058	25271	...	18484
Cases		1372	1452	-80		1518	1589	1734	1811	1848	...	171
Positivity rate %		6.4	6.8	-0.4		7.0	7.3	7.7	8.0	8.1	...	1.1
Deaths		7.6	8.4	-0.8		8.4	8.4	7.4	7.3	6.9	...	1.3
All Vaccinations		18581	18576	+5		19217	19217	19061	19217	19175	...	45346
1st Dose		2318	2382	-64		3012	3551	4118	4768	5518	...	6677
2nd Dose		16263	16194	+69		16205	15666	14943	14449	13657	...	38669
All in hospital		489	497	-8		506	510	516	520	529	...	81
Non-ICU		429	440	-11		451	458	466	471	481	...	70
ICU		60	57	+3		55	52	50	49	48	...	11

👍

[Footballfirst]

24 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Scottish numbers: 27 July 2021

• 4,000,658 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 3,108,928 have received their second dose [+2,031; +16,826]

A couple of vaccination milestones since the weekend. More than 90% of Scotland's adults have received first doses and more than 70% second doses.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Footballfirst

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

A couple of vaccination milestones since the weekend. More than 90% of Scotland's adults have received first doses and more than 70% second doses.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

13 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Today's trend stats.

 

		7-day per-100,000 cases
Council Area	WHO	Today	Yesterday			25 Jul	24 Jul	23 Jul	22 Jul	21 Jul	...	1 May
Scotland		176	186	-10		194	204	222	232	237	...	22
West Dunbartonshire	4	237	238	-1		238	229	247	227	228	...	28
North Lanarkshire	4	226	238	-12		254	260	288	285	279	...	40
Glasgow City	4	224	229	-5		233	244	261	269	275	...	33
East Lothian	4	216	228	-12		245	255	278	291	289	...	5
Midlothian	4	211	224	-13		257	277	318	361	380	...	10
Inverclyde	4	197	204	-7		199	209	219	226	228	...	15
Na h-Eileanan Siar	4	192	162	+30		147	143	151	142	120	...	0
West Lothian	4	188	194	-6		200	223	254	264	251	...	26
Clackmannanshire	4	187	183	+4		189	193	203	229	221	...	14
Edinburgh City	4	183	203	-20		223	239	261	288	293	...	27
Dundee City	4	182	201	-19		202	238	245	277	301	...	13
Stirling	4	182	169	+13		173	164	188	184	180	...	11
South Lanarkshire	4	180	189	-9		192	199	210	205	212	...	18
Fife	4	171	188	-17		197	206	226	249	260	...	32
Falkirk	4	165	168	-3		186	189	220	220	216	...	23
East Ayrshire	4	164	172	-8		185	189	185	185	178	...	45
Renfrewshire	4	163	166	-3		178	191	210	226	250	...	20
Shetland Islands	4	171	171	0		153	157	157	135	183	...	0
East Renfrewshire	4	160	182	-22		207	236	259	253	253	...	24
North Ayrshire	4	156	154	+2		142	127	133	132	122	...	17
Aberdeen City	4	152	165	-13		172	178	195	204	209	...	13
Argyll & Bute	4	150	176	-26		177	165	183	176	168	...	7
Scottish Borders	4	150	162	-12		155	148	155	177	179	...	6
South Ayrshire	3	144	151	-7		169	178	200	204	198	...	25
Moray	3	139	137	+2		135	141	157	150	150	...	65
Angus	3	133	157	-24		161	178	189	209	233	...	7
Highland	3	133	137	-4		138	149	160	168	183	...	9
Perth & Kinross	3	132	154	-22		167	182	208	238	239	...	22
Dumfries & Galloway	3	130	146	-16		148	146	169	177	181	...	19
East Dunbartonshire	3	130	137	-7		169	190	215	224	248	...	51
Aberdeenshire	3	108	113	-5		116	121	132	137	142	...	8
Orkney Islands	3	54	49	+5		54	36	31	36	36	...	0
7-day averages		Today	Yesterday			25 Jul	24 Jul	23 Jul	22 Jul	21 Jul	...	1 May
Tests		23829	23612	+217		23901	24079	24904	25058	25271	...	18484
Cases		1372	1452	-80		1518	1589	1734	1811	1848	...	171
Positivity rate %		6.4	6.8	-0.4		7.0	7.3	7.7	8.0	8.1	...	1.1
Deaths		7.6	8.4	-0.8		8.4	8.4	7.4	7.3	6.9	...	1.3
All Vaccinations		18581	18576	+5		19217	19217	19061	19217	19175	...	45346
1st Dose		2318	2382	-64		3012	3551	4118	4768	5518	...	6677
2nd Dose		16263	16194	+69		16205	15666	14943	14449	13657	...	38669
All in hospital		489	497	-8		506	510	516	520	529	...	81
Non-ICU		429	440	-11		451	458	466	471	481	...	70
ICU		60	57	+3		55	52	50	49	48	...	11

👍

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

A couple of vaccination milestones since the weekend. More than 90% of Scotland's adults have received first doses and more than 70% second doses.

I should correct that.

 

It seems that there are a number of 16/17 year olds in my totals (either health/care staff or within vulnerable groups) so the adult figures (18+) should be 89.5% and 69.8% 

[Back to 2005]

28 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

I was being sarcastic. The Australian approach is completely unsustainable. It was a good idea for 6 months or something but nearly 18 months on to still be using lockdowns is a recipe for disaster imo.

Apologies! 

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Whether or not this is overblown or not, I love the spirit of those protesting. Lockdowns are tyrannical and, long-term, likely to be just as damaging as what good they do.

 

I understand there are others on this board who disagree, and that there is evidence that they stop transmission, but there is more, IMO, than just that factor at play.

 

Good on those who were willing to risk arrest to have their voice heard in what should be a democracy: bams, conspiritards, flat-earthers and regular folk who are sceptical about government over-reach.

 

One thing all this raises, however, is how human beings were never really supposed to live in large cities. 

 

That's an interesting description and perhaps not as black and white an argument either way regarding how apt,  accurate or literal it is.

 

Has power been exercised arbitrarily?  Yes.  Has the effect of arbitrary power been cruel?  Yes.  Have people been oppressed in some form?  Yes.  So quite literally it seems a good description.  But where it falls down is on the necessity,  purpose,  intent,  duty of the powers that have been exercised.  

[Enzo Chiefo]

6 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

That's an interesting description and perhaps not as black and white an argument either way regarding how apt,  accurate or literal it is.

 

Has power been exercised arbitrarily?  Yes.  Has the effect of arbitrary power been cruel?  Yes.  Have people been oppressed in some form?  Yes.  So quite literally it seems a good description.  But where it falls down is on the necessity,  purpose,  intent,  duty of the powers that have been exercised.  

Every tyrannical regime in history has used the "it's for the common good of the people" excuse in order to justify the extreme measures that they impose

[Taffin]

11 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

That's an interesting description and perhaps not as black and white an argument either way regarding how apt,  accurate or literal it is.

 

Has power been exercised arbitrarily?  Yes.  Has the effect of arbitrary power been cruel?  Yes.  Have people been oppressed in some form?  Yes.  So quite literally it seems a good description.  But where it falls down is on the necessity,  purpose,  intent,  duty of the powers that have been exercised.  

 

For me lockdowns are a bit of an extension of the trolley problem.

 

Doing nothing will result in more deaths but in doing something I'd say it makes you responsible for the other outcomes.

 

Personally I wouldn't divert the trolley as I don't believe it's in my gift to decide someone else should die. Many would and I think fundamentally that's where there are disagreements about what approach is best. For me, inaction isn't good or bad, it's just letting something happen you didn't cause (in this case a natural occurrence), as soon as you start choosing the winners or losers feels wrong to me. I don't think one number being larger than the other is significant justification for making a decision...unless of course the larger number threatened the very existence of humanity.

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Taffin said:

 

I was being sarcastic. The Australian approach is completely unsustainable. It was a good idea for 6 months or something but nearly 18 months on to still be using lockdowns is a recipe for disaster imo.

Yep .    

10 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Every tyrannical regime in history has used the "it's for the common good of the people" excuse in order to justify the extreme measures that they impose

Yep 👍

[Don Dan]

https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/covid-scotland-linguistic-gymnastics-serve-no-one-well-including-nicola-sturgeon-3325550
 

Ms Sturgeon insisted, repeatedly, that was what meant was “offered”, not “given”. Although she used the word given and we are  all thick if we did not understand she meant offered when she used the word given! 
 

 

[Taffin]

15 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/covid-scotland-linguistic-gymnastics-serve-no-one-well-including-nicola-sturgeon-3325550
 

Ms Sturgeon insisted, repeatedly, that was what meant was “offered”, not “given”. Although she used the word given and we are  all thick if we did not understand she meant offered when she used the word given! 
 

 

 

I posted about this yesterday...yes in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter but the amount it's happened where a politician or scientist has said one thing and then later so 'oh no, no, I meant something else' just completely undermines their competency.

 

Why would you ever expect all people to be jabbed in the first place?!? There was always going to be some who couldn't/wouldn't take it. She certainly makes it hard for herself at times.

 

Her waffling excuses are just patronising. People expect their elected leaders to have the "certain level of intelligence" to mean what they say and say what they mean. Turning around and saying you must be stupid because you took what I said at face value doesn't wash.

[Francis Albert]

According to the Telegraph this morning over half the people the stats say were admitted to hospital with Covid were in fact admitted for something else and tested positive after admission. So the "pressure on the NHS" from Covid has been grossly exaggerated.

I think this is probably about English stats so I don't know if the same applied in Scotland or other parts of the UK.

[Back to 2005]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

According to the Telegraph this morning over half the people the stats say were admitted to hospital with Covid were in fact admitted for something else and tested positive after admission. So the "pressure on the NHS" from Covid has been grossly exaggerated.

I think this is probably about English stats so I don't know if the same applied in Scotland or other parts of the UK.

It will as the stats are basically people who have tested positive for covid.  A few months back the health minister had to eventually apologise when he made a misleading statement about the number of children in Scottish hospitals. 

 

[Back to 2005]

This Ferguson bloke is shameless...

[Enzo Chiefo]

30 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

I posted about this yesterday...yes in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter but the amount it's happened where a politician or scientist has said one thing and then later so 'oh no, no, I meant something else' just completely undermines their competency.

 

Why would you ever expect all people to be jabbed in the first place?!? There was always going to be some who couldn't/wouldn't take it. She certainly makes it hard for herself at times.

 

Her waffling excuses are just patronising. People expect their elected leaders to have the "certain level of intelligence" to mean what they say and say what they mean. Turning around and saying you must be stupid because you took what I said at face value doesn't wash.

She really has got a brass neck. SHE used the verb "give" instead of "offer" and now casts aspersions on the intelligence of opposition politicians ,and some journos, for  not knowing what she intended to say. 

You always know when Sturgeon's had a session with one of her State spinmeisters, she turns everything round to "why would I?", "how could I possibly have known?" etc etc. 

All you have to do is apply the Boris Test; had he said what she did and failed to deliver,  what would her reaction be?

 

 

 

[Gizmo]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

A couple of vaccination milestones since the weekend. More than 90% of Scotland's adults have received first doses and more than 70% second doses.

 

1 hour ago, Taffin said:

 

For me lockdowns are a bit of an extension of the trolley problem.

 

Doing nothing will result in more deaths but in doing something I'd say it makes you responsible for the other outcomes.

 

Personally I wouldn't divert the trolley as I don't believe it's in my gift to decide someone else should die. Many would and I think fundamentally that's where there are disagreements about what approach is best. For me, inaction isn't good or bad, it's just letting something happen you didn't cause (in this case a natural occurrence), as soon as you start choosing the winners or losers feels wrong to me. I don't think one number being larger than the other is significant justification for making a decision...unless of course the larger number threatened the very existence of humanity.

 

 

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Yeah, but is there a way of getting the *******s on the left and then reversing the tram so you can go back and get the worker, too? 

 

Seriously though - I agree with most of your post. Très 道.

I could probably bore you to death with how taking the vaccine philosophically contradicts your position re the Trolley problem but I'll just go with this instead. 



 

[Enzo Chiefo]

22 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

According to the Telegraph this morning over half the people the stats say were admitted to hospital with Covid were in fact admitted for something else and tested positive after admission. So the "pressure on the NHS" from Covid has been grossly exaggerated.

I think this is probably about English stats so I don't know if the same applied in Scotland or other parts of the UK.

If one lesson has come from all this,  it's that throwing money into the bottomless pit that is the NHS, is not the way forward.

We need a grown up conversation, free from political and union ideology,  about how the service operates and how we fund it in the future. It can't remain as a national religion, treated as a political football and being beyond criticism. 

Looking to, and learning from,the far more successful, hybrid systems in France, Germany and Austria, to name but 3, would be a positive start. Outcomes are far more important than decades old ideologies. 

 

 

[Taffin]

3 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

 

 

I could probably bore you to death with how taking the vaccine philosophically contradicts your position re the Trolley problem but I'll just go with this instead. 



 

 

Please bore us, how does taking the vaccine contradict my position on the trolley problem? Does taking the vaccine equate to pulling the lever?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Boy Daniel said:

https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/covid-scotland-linguistic-gymnastics-serve-no-one-well-including-nicola-sturgeon-3325550
 

Ms Sturgeon insisted, repeatedly, that was what meant was “offered”, not “given”. Although she used the word given and we are  all thick if we did not understand she meant offered when she used the word given! 
 

 

😎

7 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

She really has got a brass neck. SHE used the verb "give" instead of "offer" and now casts aspersions on the intelligence of opposition politicians ,and some journos, for  not knowing what she intended to say. 

You always know when Sturgeon's had a session with one of her State spinmeisters, she turns everything round to "why would I?", "how could I possibly have known?" etc etc. 

All you have to do is apply the Boris Test; had he said what she did and failed to deliver,  what would her reaction be?

 

 

 

Just saw clips of the daily briefing on stv . My shed was in a foul mood today . Very abrasive . Not a good look. She was rattling on about anti Vaxers who “ spread misinformation “ they are committing anti social behaviour . Dangerous route to go down really as this can also be classed as a criminal offence . 

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

😎

Just saw clips of the daily briefing on stv . My shed was in a foul mood today . Very abrasive . Not a good look. She was rattling on about anti Vaxers who “ spread misinformation “ they are committing anti social behaviour . Dangerous route to go down really as this can also be classed as a criminal offence . 

An embarrassing performance from herJames, lacking dignity,  humility and respect. She appears to believe she is beyond not only criticism but forensic questioning.  

[Gizmo]

20 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Please bore us, how does taking the vaccine contradict my position on the trolley problem? Does taking the vaccine equate to pulling the lever?

Well kinda, it's basically utilitarianism - for the greater good (and reciprocal altruism) - especially when viewed as a societal choice/responsibility as part of a community. It's accepting a degree of risk to yourself for personal reward and also knowing that it's doing good for others (the greater good) - hence why some folk get a bit irate at the pro-disease mob who aren't taking it but benefitting from your risk (the expected reciprocation). That utilitarian view to take the vaccine could, and will for a fraction of a degree of people who take it, end in personal tragedy for them but, like when news of a plane crash comes on the news, we are all relieved when its a single-prop light plane with just the pilot over an A830 crashing with the loss of all 830 passengers plus crew, yeah? So the greater good is the preferred outcome, even with empathy for the poor soul that smashed his private plane into a field and died. 

So if you are generally guided by utilitariansm in your life, you'd throw the lever to do the least damage and the most good . I get the inaction to a degree (but not the explanation you gave, personally I don't believe the fate explanation - maybe fate decreed you would be there to do something?) as they actually did a, potentially unethical, real-life simulation of this problem to see what people would do: 

Like I said, I could bore for Scotland on these subjects as I find them fascinating and there's some very dark places that challenge the idea of utilitarianism, but that Vsauce video is a really good watch on the trolley problem (skip to 18:40 if you want to just see one of the people's reactions). 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Gizmo

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

An embarrassing performance from herJames, lacking dignity,  humility and respect. She appears to believe she is beyond not only criticism but forensic questioning.  

It certainly seems so from what I saw on the news . I think she does believe that she is exempt from scrutiny hence her abrasive responses . 

[Spellczech]

13 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

It certainly seems so from what I saw on the news . I think she does believe that she is exempt from scrutiny hence her abrasive responses . 

Could be that the stats are wrong though. For instance I went to the EICC for my second jab 3 days before my Saturday appointment at Ingliston. I was told I had to log on and cancel my appointment. Tried to do it but the login failed on the Friday when I tried it at two different times. I was irritated to I never bothered phoning about it. It could be that the stats say I am double- jabbed or they could say that I missed my second appointment - no idea...

 

Sturgeon is right that she cannot control uptake of a voluntary vaccine so surely she can only be judged if the appointments have been sent out for all 40-49 year olds?

[Taffin]

53 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Well kinda, it's basically utilitarianism - for the greater good (and reciprocal altruism) - especially when viewed as a societal choice/responsibility as part of a community. It's accepting a degree of risk to yourself for personal reward and also knowing that it's doing good for others (the greater good) - hence why some folk get a bit irate at the pro-disease mob who aren't taking it but benefitting from your risk (the expected reciprocation). That utilitarian view to take the vaccine could, and will for a fraction of a degree of people who take it, end in personal tragedy for them but, like when news of a plane crash comes on the news, we are all relieved when its a single-prop light plane with just the pilot over an A830 crashing with the loss of all 830 passengers plus crew, yeah? So the greater good is the preferred outcome, even with empathy for the poor soul that smashed his private plane into a field and died. 

So if you are generally guided by utilitariansm in your life, you'd throw the lever to do the least damage and the most good . I get the inaction to a degree (but not the explanation you gave, personally I don't believe the fate explanation - maybe fate decreed you would be there to do something?) as they actually did a, potentially unethical, real-life simulation of this problem to see what people would do: 

Like I said, I could bore for Scotland on these subjects as I find them fascinating and there's some very dark places that challenge the idea of utilitarianism, but that Vsauce video is a really good watch on the trolley problem (skip to 18:40 if you want to just see one of the people's reactions). 

 

 

Definitely not boring, I find it fascinating too. I'm generally in favour of the greater good idea, but it doesn't always need to have negative action to offset it as it does in the trolley experiment, lockdown does however have a very negative cost to pay. I took the vaccine because it will enable me to do things i want to do and potentially benefit others, there's not really any downside other than feeling coerced into doing something I didn't really want to do, the only 'loser' is me. If the choice was kill one other person and coronavirus will go away, I wouldn't do it. I'd maybe do it if that person was me though, but that isn't the scenario.

 

If taking the vaccine was equivalent to pulling the lever, someone other than myself would be required to die directly from my actions. Now you could make a case for me taking the vaccine preventing someone who actually needed it dying in another country and I'd potentially agree...but it's a bit of a stretch as it assumes my designated vaccine would actually be used for someone in need without access to one.

 

The trolley is of course an extreme end of the spectrum example, which is why I felt it's accurate with use in relation to lockdown. Lockdown will have killed people in order to save many more. 

 

I'll give the video a watch later in full, thanks for sharing it 👍👍 I could spend hours thinking about stuff like this...but I do try not to as it can get a bit heavy.

 

 

Edit: a better example for me to use would be mandatory vaccinations. More people would win, but others would lose, I wouldn't force anyone to be vaccinated against their will and wouldn't support it. It doesn't mean I wouldn't take it on myself to be vaccinated though. I guess it's a willingness to avoid negatively impacting others. I'd suffer a complete personal lockdown to save the world but I wouldn't make someone else do it.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Taffin

[Taffin]

27 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Could be that the stats are wrong though. For instance I went to the EICC for my second jab 3 days before my Saturday appointment at Ingliston. I was told I had to log on and cancel my appointment. Tried to do it but the login failed on the Friday when I tried it at two different times. I was irritated to I never bothered phoning about it. It could be that the stats say I am double- jabbed or they could say that I missed my second appointment - no idea...

 

Sturgeon is right that she cannot control uptake of a voluntary vaccine so surely she can only be judged if the appointments have been sent out for all 40-49 year olds?

 

I'm not sure anyone is disputing that...they're saying why didn't she just say that then rather than saying given opposed to offered. Nobody made her say given, she chose to.

[JudyJudyJudy]

31 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Could be that the stats are wrong though. For instance I went to the EICC for my second jab 3 days before my Saturday appointment at Ingliston. I was told I had to log on and cancel my appointment. Tried to do it but the login failed on the Friday when I tried it at two different times. I was irritated to I never bothered phoning about it. It could be that the stats say I am double- jabbed or they could say that I missed my second appointment - no idea...

 

Sturgeon is right that she cannot control uptake of a voluntary vaccine so surely she can only be judged if the appointments have been sent out for all 40-49 year olds?

She issue Today was the use of words , which created a carry on 

[Irufushi]

Title change to shamdemic plz. 

[Gizmo]

15 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

Definitely not boring, I find it fascinating too. I'm generally in favour of the greater good idea, but it doesn't always need to have negative action to offset it as it does in the trolley experiment, lockdown does however have a very negative cost to pay. I took the vaccine because it will enable me to do things i want to do and potentially benefit others, there's not really any downside other than feeling coerced into doing something I didn't really want to do, the only 'loser' is me. If the choice was kill one other person and coronavirus will go away, I wouldn't do it. I'd maybe do it if that person was me though, but that isn't the scenario.

 

If taking the vaccine was equivalent to pulling the lever, someone other than myself would be required to die directly from my actions. Now you could make a case for me taking the vaccine preventing someone who actually needed it dying in another country and I'd potentially agree...but it's a bit of a stretch as it assumes my designated vaccine would actually be used for someone in need without access to one.

 

The trolley is of course an extreme end of the spectrum example, which is why I felt it's accurate with use in relation to lockdown. Lockdown will have killed people in order to save many more. 

 

I'll give the video a watch later in full, thanks for sharing it 👍👍 I could spend hours thinking about stuff like this...but I do try not to as it can get a bit heavy.

 

 

Edit: a better example for me to use would be mandatory vaccinations. More people would win, but others would lose, I wouldn't force anyone to be vaccinated against their will and wouldn't support it. It doesn't mean I wouldn't take it on myself to be vaccinated though. I guess it's a willingness to avoid negatively impacting others. I'd suffer a complete personal lockdown to save the world but I wouldn't make someone else do it.

Mandatory vaccines remove choice, at least the illusion of it and would definitely be resented - even by people who feel that it is the right thing to do. Co-ercion and vaccine passports I'm also not overly happy with - because the pandemic and even the spread of conspiracy crap (which is definitely targeted) is going to hurt the disadvantaged more. 

I suppose the trolley problem more maps to someone in authority who decides to procure vaccines knowing that less people will die but that some will die/be harmed whilst everyone else is safe - it's an interesting poser. Vsauce video is definitely worth a watch - it would make a good thread except, well, you know what happens on here these days.

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, Gizmo said:

Mandatory vaccines remove choice, at least the illusion of it and would definitely be resented - even by people who feel that it is the right thing to do. Co-ercion and vaccine passports I'm also not overly happy with - because the pandemic and even the spread of conspiracy crap (which is definitely targeted) is going to hurt the disadvantaged more. 

I suppose the trolley problem more maps to someone in authority who decides to procure vaccines knowing that less people will die but that some will die/be harmed whilst everyone else is safe - it's an interesting poser. Vsauce video is definitely worth a watch - it would make a good thread except, well, you know what happens on here these days.

 

 

I'm as guilty for that as anyone but yes, it would make a great thread. Some of the philosophical/thought experiment threads that were on here 10-15 years ago where great...or at least teenage me thought they were. Probably filled with the same crap as now in all honesty 😂😂

 

I was very much using the trolley experiment from the perspective of a government using lockdowns and having the power to do so. I just think fundamentally some people would pull the lever, some wouldn't, and as such if you're on the opposite side you'll probably never agree with someone about lockdowns as one values the greater good, the other can't see past the intentional act of harm on the other.

 

Of course it gets far more complex, as your original image in response alludes to. For example, (and I'm not meaning to say "only old people need to worry about covid" here) but if you said pull the lever but the 5 people you save will die in 12 months whereas the one you killed would have lived another 50 years and suddenly the experiment becomes much more nuanced.

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

It certainly seems so from what I saw on the news . I think she does believe that she is exempt from scrutiny hence her abrasive responses . 

The older cohorts are over 90% 

40-49 76% = Failure 

whether she lies about what she meant and calls people thick who thought she meant what she actually said 

Classless politician 

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

The older cohorts are over 90% 

40-49 76% = Failure 

whether she lies about what she meant and calls people thick who thought she meant what she actually said 

Classless politician 

👍

[Governor Tarkin]

We need less utilitarianism imo

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

3 hours ago, Taffin said:

 

For me lockdowns are a bit of an extension of the trolley problem.

 

Doing nothing will result in more deaths but in doing something I'd say it makes you responsible for the other outcomes.

 

Personally I wouldn't divert the trolley as I don't believe it's in my gift to decide someone else should die. Many would and I think fundamentally that's where there are disagreements about what approach is best. For me, inaction isn't good or bad, it's just letting something happen you didn't cause (in this case a natural occurrence), as soon as you start choosing the winners or losers feels wrong to me. I don't think one number being larger than the other is significant justification for making a decision...unless of course the larger number threatened the very existence of humanity.

 

 

what if the 5 are decent people but have no dependents and the worker has young children ?

 

it’s a difficult one - could do worse than getting right said fred’s opinion on it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gizmo]

3 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

what if the 5 are decent people but have no dependents and the worker has young children ?

 

it’s a difficult one - could do worse than getting right said fred’s opinion on it

 

 

I'm too sexy for my car
Too sexy for my car
Too sexy by far
And I'm too sexy for my hat
Too sexy for my hat
What ya think about that?

Say no more, I think that about answers it. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

6 hours ago, Taffin said:

 

I was being sarcastic. The Australian approach is completely unsustainable. It was a good idea for 6 months or something but nearly 18 months on to still be using lockdowns is a recipe for disaster imo.

It would be gone if the vaccine rollout wasn't a joke.

[Ray Gin]

50 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

The older cohorts are over 90% 

40-49 76% = Failure 

whether she lies about what she meant and calls people thick who thought she meant what she actually said 

Classless politician 

 

All of the 40-49 age group have been offered an appointment time. If they don't show what are they supposed to do? Are you suggesting the SG send enforcement teams round people's doors, pin them down and force the needle into their arms?