U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[periodictabledancer]

45 minutes ago, Bigsmak said:

 

Dont usually watch trailers but made an exception for this. 

 

I just want to know why the police / security were so lenient on the people storming the capitol.  Without trying to sound like an arse - had the first wave of people trying to get in been Black, or wearing Islamic Apparel, they would have been shot. Quickly and decisively and it would have put an end to it. 

 

There was so much going on that allowed this to happen. 

There weren't enough of them, the police on the capitol have limited powers/jurisdiction.

The problem lay with explicit orders/instructions that were given to the particular law enforcement agencies that do have jurisdiction in the Capitol just before the 6 Jan riots. That was a big clue to how this was being managed & enabled. I can't recall the specifics but it was clear that everyone was reminded who was in charge and that they should not act unless instructed.

That's why Nancy Pelosi was trying to get the state troopers in - the Capitol police (not the DC police) were prevented from getting involved by their own boss. The letter went out about 10 days beforehand.

Edited December 30, 2022 by periodictabledancer

[ri Alban]

I'll say it again. Trump supporters don't believe or don't give a feck about this.

Edited December 30, 2022 by ri Alban

[Maple Leaf]

30 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I'll say it again. Trump supporters don't believe or don't give a feck about this.

 

25 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Indeed. Haven't they been about to incarcerate Trump since about 2017? All this does is provide 'commentators' and pundits the chance to sell digital column inches.

I was talking to one of my Trump-supporting Michigan relatives on the weekend.  I never introduce the subject of politics, but he brought it up. 

 

The only thing he mentioned was the busloads of immigrants who were being dropped off at the Veeps house.  He thought it was hysterically funny.

[Des Lynam]

58 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

I was talking to one of my Trump-supporting Michigan relatives on the weekend.  I never introduce the subject of politics, but he brought it up. 

 

The only thing he mentioned was the busloads of immigrants who were being dropped off at the Veeps house.  He thought it was hysterically funny.

The whole prosecution of Trump is something I can’t take seriously. There is no way they are going to incarcerate a former US President. I think a deal will be done where he disappears into the background with Trump claiming the swamp is too deep for him to fix. 
 

I’m more interested in why people voted for such a divisive figure who ran as a populist candidate. To label them as stupid is far too simplistic and dangerous going forward. 

[JFK-1]

Given what we know, and what we know is nothing like all the DOJ knows, Trump will most definitely be indicted. It's simply impossible for them not to indict now, and perhaps we have the Jan 6 committee to thank for that.

 

If they hadn't conducted their investigation in full public view we would know little to nothing of what went on in the broad conspiracy. Because if DOJ alone had been investigating it they would tell you nothing about their findings.

 

That's simply standard practice for all DOJ investigations, and good practice, they're not making a special case of Trump in that respect.

 

Apparently it's also standard practice that they can be laboriously slow in an attempt to build an unassailable case.  And let's face it, despite Trump getting just the standard procedures, this is a special case. And they're likely to be even more meticulous than usual.

 

Throw in the fact we get hit by new revelations almost daily which simply keeps adding to the pile before creating a final indictment. I think some Trump Jr texts were just revealed where he is speaking of a fake electors scam. This is why it feels so slow, but hopefully it's what will result in the removal of Trump from sane society, and insane too for that matter.

 

I saw a panel of 4 experts debate it, they all described what I mentioned above plus a lot more besides. They were all convinced Trump will be indicted. But when the interviewer asked if any of them thought an indictment would come in the first 2 weeks of January, all said no.

 

But he will be indicted they insisted. Congressman Jamie Raskin, who wasn't on that panel of 4 also thinks Trump is well cooked. Raskin is a  constitutional law professor and he calls it an open and shut case.

 

Plus this is only about the insurrection before you start piling on the classified documents and so much more.

 

Raskin: The Case Against Trump Over Jan. 6 Is ‘Open And Shut’ 

 

 

 

[JFK-1]

I think Jared Kushner and maybe Ivanka too will flip. I would wager Kushner is every bit afraid to go to jail as Trump is, and would do anything to avoid it. This is another thing we won't see right now, the names of all those who have flipped, and I suspect there could be many.

 

There were a lot of high ups like Meadows who refused to co-operate with the committee, they had no legal powers to make him testify. But the DOJ does and a lot more tools besides. Take as an example recent released testimony of Trump Jr., who has a shockingly poor memory when it comes to key issues.

 

He can't remember who said what or when, or who texted what or when, and a lot more crucial potentially incriminating details besides. You can get away with that in front of the committee, but not in front of a grand jury the DOJ can convene.

 

Such memory lapses are viewed as deliberate attempt to conceal, unlike with the committee, if you still refuse to genuinely co-operate then you can be looking at jail. they have ways of making you talk and that's why a lot will flip, make a plea deal.

 

Kushner is seen as the potential insider who told them where the documents were stashed at the golf club.

 

BREAKING: Jared Kushner suddenly in legal jeopardy

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by JFK-1

[Maple Leaf]

@JFK-1 Keep up the great "investigative journalism" posting.

 

I don't care if the racist, misogynist, dimwitted embarrassment goes to jail.  I just want to him to disappear into the dustbin of history, kicking and screaming like a dirty child being dragged into the shower.

[JFK-1]

53 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

@JFK-1 Keep up the great "investigative journalism" posting.

 

I don't care if the racist, misogynist, dimwitted embarrassment goes to jail.  I just want to him to disappear into the dustbin of history, kicking and screaming like a dirty child being dragged into the shower.

 

I'm like you, while it would be nice to see him jailed, what I really want is for him to just disappear as best we can arrange it. I don't know if he will go to jail, but it's interesting that congressman and constitutional law professor Jamie Raskin thinks he will in the video above.

Another background factor here is the GOP want Trump indicted, or at least the GOP leaderships does. McConnell, McCarthy, Cruz, DeSantis and so on, all want him indicted and gone. So in the background they will be doing nothing to hinder that outcome, but just as importantly quietly trying to help facilitate it in any way they can.

I say quietly because it comes down to they want the DOJ to do their dirty work for them, they wont publicly support it and might even publicly criticise it. But they really want Trump gone, while holding on to the base of cult crazies. Because it's coming down to that's all they have if they want to have any chance of swinging an election.

Jail or not, I see no way Trump can just walk away from this without some form of significant punishment all can see being inflicted on him. There's been talk of reluctance to indict/convict him due to discomfort about doing so to an ex leader, smacks of banana republic.

 

And no doubt dire predictions from the GOP of every president or major political figure being under constant threat of arrest and imprisonment. Which is absurd.

What Trump has done is beyond the pale, no president in the history of the nation has ever done anything like it, and that's exactly why none have ever been indicted and imprisoned.

 

Because he's unique in that respect doesn't mean indicting him is banana republic like or setting a dangerous precedent for arrest of political opposition. The way I see it the nation would appear more banana republic like if they let this obvious criminal seditionist just walk away.

 

Don't want to be arrested? A good start is don't conduct a massive multi pronged, months long, ultimately violent and deadly attempt to overthrow the government. Is that so hard? 

What he has done is so egregious for the good of all he has to be silenced, the GOP leadership will want that too. They don't want him constantly sniping them from the sidelines still trying to control them.

While the rest of sane society want him silenced because we all know the havoc he is creating with his constant stream of outlandish lies, which he's still disseminating and still creating havoc with. Which at this point might actually be a  good thing, he's helping them build their case further.

 

When you're facing potential charges of aiding and comforting insurrectionists, stating that if you were president they would all be blanket pardoned is stupid beyond belief.

 

Many of them are already convicted and in jail, some with outright guilty pleas. Trump literally talking himself into jail even right now.

 

While others, Meadows for example, has gone off the radar completely, radio silence from him while he used to frequently take calls from press. Because for one thing he's not a total idiot, Trump is, and for another he may be one of those who have been flipped. I think he may be facing jail too.

 

I would love Trump to speak in court, but know the legal advice would be strongly against it. But Trump being that stupid you just never know.

 

Hell he might decide after watching 'twelve angry men' or something that he's the greatest lawyer the world has ever seen, and sack all these legal dummies. He's so bizarre you just never can tell what's coming next.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

@JFK-1 Keep up the great "investigative journalism" posting.

 

I don't care if the racist, misogynist, dimwitted embarrassment goes to jail.  I just want to him to disappear into the dustbin of history, kicking and screaming like a dirty child being dragged into the shower.

Trump "It was Kickback that did it"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

44 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I'm like you, while it would be nice to see him jailed, what I really want is for him to just disappear as best we can arrange it. I don't know if he will go to jail, but it's interesting that congressman and constitutional law professor Jamie Raskin thinks he will in the video above.

Another background factor here is the GOP want Trump indicted, or at least the GOP leaderships does. McConnell, McCarthy, Cruz, DeSantis and so on, all want him indicted and gone. So in the background they will be doing nothing to hinder that outcome, but just as importantly quietly trying to help facilitate it in any way they can.

I say quietly because it comes down to they want the DOJ to do their dirty work for them, they wont publicly support it and might even publicly criticise it. But they really want Trump gone, while holding on to the base of cult crazies. Because it's coming down to that's all they have if they want to have any chance of swinging an election.

Jail or not, I see no way Trump can just walk away from this without some form of significant punishment all can see being inflicted on him. There's been talk of reluctance to indict/convict him due to discomfort about doing so to an ex leader, smacks of banana republic.

 

And no doubt dire predictions from the GOP of every president or major political figure being under constant threat of arrest and imprisonment. Which is absurd.

What Trump has done is beyond the pale, no president in the history of the nation has ever done anything like it, and that's exactly why none have ever been indicted and imprisoned.

 

Because he's unique in that respect doesn't mean indicting him is banana republic like or setting a dangerous precedent for arrest of political opposition. The way I see it the nation would appear more banana republic like if they let this obvious criminal seditionist just walk away.

 

Don't want to be arrested? A good start is don't conduct a massive multi pronged, months long, ultimately violent and deadly attempt to overthrow the government. Is that so hard? 

What he has done is so egregious for the good of all he has to be silenced, the GOP leadership will want that too. They don't want him constantly sniping them from the sidelines still trying to control them.

While the rest of sane society want him silenced because we all know the havoc he is creating with his constant stream of outlandish lies, which he's still disseminating and still creating havoc with. Which at this point might actually be a  good thing, he's helping them build their case further.

 

When you're facing potential charges of aiding and comforting insurrectionists, stating that if you were president they would all be blanket pardoned is stupid beyond belief.

 

Many of them are already convicted and in jail, some with outright guilty pleas. Trump literally talking himself into jail even right now.

 

While others, Meadows for example, has gone off the radar completely, radio silence from him while he used to frequently take calls from press. Because for one thing he's not a total idiot, Trump is, and for another he may be one of those who have been flipped. I think he may be facing jail too.

 

I would love Trump to speak in court, but know the legal advice would be strongly against it. But Trump being that stupid you just never know.

 

Hell he might decide after watching 'twelve angry men' or something that he's the greatest lawyer the world s ever seen, and sack all these legal dummies. He's so bizarre you just never can tell what's coming next.

And people still believe the CIA  Assassinated JFK.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

@JFK-1 Keep up the great "investigative journalism" posting.

 

I don't care if the racist, misogynist, dimwitted embarrassment goes to jail.  I just want to him to disappear into the dustbin of history, kicking and screaming like a dirty child being dragged into the shower.

I'd like Boris Johnson in Jail or to disappear forever, but the attention seeking, power hungry, money is my God, piece of shit won't.

[Unknown user]

14 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

The whole prosecution of Trump is something I can’t take seriously. There is no way they are going to incarcerate a former US President. I think a deal will be done where he disappears into the background with Trump claiming the swamp is too deep for him to fix. 
 

I’m more interested in why people voted for such a divisive figure who ran as a populist candidate. To label them as stupid is far too simplistic and dangerous going forward. 

 

I can only think that he'll die before the end, I can't see him inside either, even though people are going to jail for much less than what he did.

 

But, and this is a huge but, the state HAS to be seen to completely go for him. It's what states do when attacked from within, they react massively so everyone knows - no one ****s with the state.

[JFK-1]

A number of highly qualified people are now saying they think he may go to jail. Saw an interview recently with a Harvard law professor and that was his view. Both Merrick Garland and Jan 6 committee member Jamie Raskin who is also a law professor were students of this guy.

 

The feeling is exactly the way I feel about it, they haven't even laid out a case yet but everybody knows he's guilty as sin, 100% clear. We know it and we're no cops or lawyers.

 

He has to be indicted, because as this law professor explained the public already knows so much of his obvious guilt DOJ have to indict. Even if they had previously been squeamish about indicting him being a previous president and currently declared candidate.

 

Jan 6th committee have forced their hand and he will be indicted. The law professor predicted a flurry of indictments sometime in March. Trump might be hit by indictments on stuff at any time, he's in a sea of ever deepening shit with tax stuff and who can calculate what else.

 

All i'm talking about is the broad conspiracy to pervert the election culminating in the attack on the capitol, and the classified documents. The professor thought they might hit him with the documents first, because in his view it's the easier one to nail him on first. 

 

A lot less complex that the whole conspiracy and looking cut and dried. He illegally took those documents, then repeatedly lied and refused to return them. Open and shut, according to the professor, and there's probably insider testimony from Kushner maybe. Somebody told them exactly where those documents were stashed.

 

Ideally we want Trump indicted and convicted of something major as quickly as possible, and I think the professor is right, the documents could do it hopefully before 2023 is out.

 

Special counsel Jack Smith is in charge of investigating both the documents and the conspiracy + riot. The more you think about it the more likely it seems it could take years to lay out absolutely everything he's likely to be charged with. Court rooms probably will be his fate for the rest of his life.

 

I can see the strain in his face all the time now, saw him pleading "I haven't done anything" a few days ago. He's like a deflating orange balloon, I think he might actually have a full blown bona fide mental breakdown at some point.

 

I'm wondering if that might be his only way out. What would the law do if that happened.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Chaotic scenes at the House of Representatives just now. Kevin McCarthy won the race to be party leader of the GOP and with them having a very slim majority, would normally have been expected to win a close but quiet and orderly vote for Speaker of the House.

 

But this GOP, quiet and orderly? Ha!

 

McCarthy has become party leader largely by basically deciding to deal with the House Freedom Caucus and its allies (roughly analogous to the looney tunes MAGA wing of the GOP) have whatever they want and tell the rest of the party that they have to go along with it. The critical flaw here is that most of what the House Freedom Caucus wants to do is throw a fit and yell about how they're being oppressed, even when they're being given everything they've nominally said they want. So, a couple dozen of them have dug in their heels to say absolutely no way ever to McCarthy because reasons.

 

What are their demands? Honestly, no one can figure it out. McCarthy has already agreed that they can trigger a Speaker election at any time for any reason if just five of them want to do it, which is a much lower threshold than recently.

 

And so now we have the first time in a century that the first ballot failed to produce a speaker, and the first time that's ever happened when a single party had a majority. We're on the second ballot at the moment, with a bunch of the Freedom Caucus members voting for Jim Jordan for Speaker, as arrogant and useless a wank stain as ever graced the floor of the House but one who moments earlier had pleaded with members to vote for McCarthy and not him. The House party leadership, which has no idea what it's doing, is planning on just calling votes over and over again until he wins, with no further concessions, but each vote takes like an hour. The Freedom Caucus rebels, who have even less of an idea of what they're doing, are declaring they're going to keep not voting for McCarthy but have no other clear plan about what to do.

 

Absolute trainwreck.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Second vote fails, third round of nominations to begin. LFG!

 

[Cade]

 

Monster Raving Loony Party in complete civil war meltdown mode.

 

 

[Boof]

2 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

Second vote fails, third round of nominations to begin. LFG!

 

 

If I'm reading that right - and it sounds so bizarre I'm having considerable doubt - the decade from 1849 sounds a real hoot!
240 ballots to select 3 speakers????  

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

Chaotic scenes at the House of Representatives just now. Kevin McCarthy won the race to be party leader of the GOP and with them having a very slim majority, would normally have been expected to win a close but quiet and orderly vote for Speaker of the House.

 

But this GOP, quiet and orderly? Ha!

 

McCarthy has become party leader largely by basically deciding to deal with the House Freedom Caucus and its allies (roughly analogous to the looney tunes MAGA wing of the GOP) have whatever they want and tell the rest of the party that they have to go along with it. The critical flaw here is that most of what the House Freedom Caucus wants to do is throw a fit and yell about how they're being oppressed, even when they're being given everything they've nominally said they want. So, a couple dozen of them have dug in their heels to say absolutely no way ever to McCarthy because reasons.

 

What are their demands? Honestly, no one can figure it out. McCarthy has already agreed that they can trigger a Speaker election at any time for any reason if just five of them want to do it, which is a much lower threshold than recently.

 

And so now we have the first time in a century that the first ballot failed to produce a speaker, and the first time that's ever happened when a single party had a majority. We're on the second ballot at the moment, with a bunch of the Freedom Caucus members voting for Jim Jordan for Speaker, as arrogant and useless a wank stain as ever graced the floor of the House but one who moments earlier had pleaded with members to vote for McCarthy and not him. The House party leadership, which has no idea what it's doing, is planning on just calling votes over and over again until he wins, with no further concessions, but each vote takes like an hour. The Freedom Caucus rebels, who have even less of an idea of what they're doing, are declaring they're going to keep not voting for McCarthy but have no other clear plan about what to do.

 

Absolute trainwreck.

 

Can the House decide to elect by a plurality rather than a majority?  If so, McCarthy should tell the rebels he plans to invite the Democrats to let that happen - then the ****ers would drop their shite-acting and vote for him rather than let Jeffries win.   

[Des Lynam]

5 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

 

Jim Jordan for Speaker, as arrogant and useless a wank stain as ever graced the floor of the House

 

This. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

5 hours ago, Boof said:

 

If I'm reading that right - and it sounds so bizarre I'm having considerable doubt - the decade from 1849 sounds a real hoot!
240 ballots to select 3 speakers????  

 

The Democratic Party had had total dominance of Washington for several decades up until then, but it split into pieces over slavery. None of the Presidents from that time period (until Lincoln) were worth a bucket of warm spit either, so Washington was basically in perpetual chaos IIRC.

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

The Democratic Party had had total dominance of Washington for several decades up until then, but it split into pieces over slavery. None of the Presidents from that time period (until Lincoln) were worth a bucket of warm spit either, so Washington was basically in perpetual chaos IIRC.

Do you still  Lincoln was against slavery.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Can the House decide to elect by a plurality rather than a majority?  If so, McCarthy should tell the rebels he plans to invite the Democrats to let that happen - then the ****ers would drop their shite-acting and vote for him rather than let Jeffries win.   

 

Not as such, or at least not without a rule change vote that would induce more chaos.

 

The alternative is that members can decide to vote "present" which lowers the threshold for a majority, but right now that would lead to Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader, becoming speaker. McCarthy has tried to use that as a threat, that they'll end up letting the Democrats pick a Speaker. (Alternately, Democrats could effectively put McCarthy in the Speaker's chair by simply voting "present," but as McCarthy is committed to extremely economically dangerous scorched-earth politics, there is zero reason for them to help him.)

 

In normal times, moderate Republicans would likely reach out to Democrats and form a bipartisan leadership arrangement, but the GOP has made opposition to anything with a D next to it the only policy goal they have, so that's not going to happen. (A very good explainer about why no sane solution will be forthcoming here: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/dem-votes-wont-save-mccarthy-or-any-other-gop-speaker/sharetoken/IY8ci88IOtbR)

 

The funny thing is there's no "smart money" on how this ends. McCarthy becoming Speaker is probably the most likely option but it's a long, long way from a dead certainty. Eventually there will very likey be a very reactionary Republican speaker, McCarthy or someone else, and we will get damaging and destructive chaos from the House of Representatives. But until then, there's lots of unpredictable comedy on offer.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

6 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Do you still  Lincoln was against slavery.

If you're not going to bother to read and understand posts, go to bed, the adults are talking.

[ri Alban]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

If you're not going to bother to read and understand posts, go to bed, the adults are talking.

I was asking if you think Lincoln was the great liberator? Or he wasn't. Did he believe in all men being equal or not. Dibhe think whites and blacks should live together or not. That blacks should have the vote and hole high office or not. 

 

Was Abe Lincoln the only president worth more than a  bucket of spit or not. 

 

 

 

Simple question. 

[ri Alban]

8 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

If you're not going to bother to read and understand posts, go to bed, the adults are talking.

If I read all your posts, I'd be in a coma. Ya fecking bore. 

 

 

JFK-1 is far superior. 

 

That's the poster on JKB , not your dead president. Just in case.

Edited January 4, 2023 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

9 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

If you're not going to bother to read and understand posts, go to bed, the adults are talking.

I hope Trump gets back in. Just for the laughs.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I was asking if you think Lincoln was the great liberator? Or he wasn't. Did he believe in all men being equal or not. Dibhe think whites and blacks should live together or not. That blacks should have the vote and hole high office or not. 

 

Was Abe Lincoln the only president worth more than a  bucket of spit or not. 

 

 

 

Simple question. 

 

And I told you to go back and read the post again, and tell me if you have enough knowledge of American history to point out what's wrong with it.

 

Absolutely none of this is about misty-eyed hagiographies of Lincoln or him being a stalwart abolitionist, which congratulations, you've read a Wikipedia page and know that his anti-slavery stances were limited and evolving over time. Also not the goddamn point.

 

He was one of the better Presidents of the US in history (admittedly not a high bar) but the point was that he followed three of the absolute worst. If you disagree and wish to make a case for the value of Fillmore, Pierce, or Buchanan, I'm all ears.

[JFK-1]

McCarthy Humiliated by Failed Speaker Vote as House GOP Explodes into Chaos

 

A closer look at Republicans exploding into absolute chaos on what was supposed to be their first day in charge of the House of Representatives when far-right MAGA members blocked GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy from winning enough votes to become Speaker on the first two ballots.

 

 

[DETTY29]

7 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I hope Trump gets back in. Just for the laughs.

Surely to feck we are down the last handful of numbnuts in the UK who would like to see Trump back, even for a laugh.

[Hansel]

5 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

Surely to feck we are down the last handful of numbnuts in the UK who would like to see Trump back, even for a laugh.

You'd think, but I've got cousins down the borders who worship him. Posting on Facebook about how great he is. At first I thought they were being ironic but it seems they have gone full Trumptard 

 

 

You never go full Trumptard

[Watt-Zeefuik]

14 hours ago, Cade said:

 

Monster Raving Loony Party in complete civil war meltdown mode.

 

 

[ri Alban]

Pishing masel at Seth Meyers and his piss take of Trump being speaker of the house.  

 

 

Santos is a total bullshitter.

 

 

 

 

I didn't know you didn't have to be a member of the house to be the speaker. Is that right?

Edited January 4, 2023 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

Sorry about earlier. I was a bit pissed off and didn't appreciate the cheek from LT. I usually take it in my stride.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Sorry about earlier. I was a bit pissed off and didn't appreciate the cheek from LT. I usually take it in my stride.

 

Apologies on my end too. It was late at night here and it felt like you were taking a cheap shot with a gotcha question about Lincoln. Have a nice evening.

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Apologies on my end too. It was late at night here and it felt like you were taking a cheap shot with a gotcha question about Lincoln. Have a nice evening.

👍 

 

 

 

 

I find Lincoln fascinating. I read so much good and some bad. I just like to know others opinions on the man. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

👍

 

 

 

 

I find Lincoln fascinating. I read so much good and some bad. I just like to know others opinions on the man. 

 

I think you still have to rate him among the top 5 American Presidents even if his legend is assuredly much larger than he deserves. One of the reasons I didn't answer your question straight up is that in his own way yes, he was considerably more opposed to slavery than his predecessors since before his election to the Senate, but it was limited to opposing the expansion of slavery. (Fillmore, Pierce, and Buchanan all in their own way effectively promoted the expansion and intensification of it.) He certainly held conventionally (though by no means universally held) racist views about Black people at the time, but he had made his career opposing the expansion of slavery.  The Emancipation Proclamation, as limited and entirely tactical in the framework of the war as it was, was still sweeping and extremely controversial even for the North.

 

While I think it's worth remembering who the real abolitionist leaders in the country were—Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Thaddeus Stevens, John Brown, etc.—none of them could have become President, and most of them regarded Lincoln as honorable, steadfast, and well-intentioned, even if he had to be dragged along to do the right thing multiple times. Douglass's comments at his funeral seem relevant and accurate: "Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined." Grant, who was a more committed egalitarian than Lincoln ever was, nonetheless regarded him with a degree of awe, and sobbed openly on news of his death.

 

I'd say it's almost always a mistake to look to history for "Great Men" who "changed the course of history" and whatnot, and no different with Lincoln, but the man had his moments and he rose to the challenge better than any of his other contemporaries did.

[Cade]

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Fourth vote fails, fifth one incoming. Trump pleading with reps to support McCarthy, most of them ignoring him.

 

I suppose something could change this time around, but as of right now . . .

 

 

[Cade]

Repubican'ts trying to have the day adjourned.

 

Democrats not letting them.

 

 

[Cade]

5th round fails

 

[Cade]

6th round is also going to fail

[Watt-Zeefuik]

[Narrator voice]: The sixth time was not, in fact, the charm.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

The rebels are all voting for this second term Congressman from Florida who has already said he doesn't want to be Speaker.

 

They have no idea what they're doing.

[RobboM]

Given that the numbers between Dems and Republicans are pretty finely balanced, is there an equivalent small block of moderate Republicans who would effectively veto the choice candidate of the Loony Right?

Edited January 4, 2023 by RobboM

[Footballfirst]

Votes so far

 

Round	McCarthy	Jeffries	Other	Present
First	203	212	19	0
Second	203	212	19	0
Third	202	212	20	0
Fourth	201	212	20	1
Fifth	201	212	20	1
Sixth	201	212	20	1

[Cade]

I'd love if half a dozen progressives in the Republicans got sick of the MAGA wreckers and voted for Jeffries.

 

[Cade]

Adjourned until 8pm Eastern

[Watt-Zeefuik]

2 hours ago, RobboM said:

Given that the numbers between Dems and Republicans are pretty finely balanced, is there an equivalent small block of moderate Republicans who would effectively veto the choice candidate of the Loony Right?

There's not really any moderate Republicans left, as they've all been primaried, but there are Republicans who actually want to try to pass laws rather than just throw tantrums, and yes, they're refusing to accede to the extremists' demands. There's been a House GOP leadership election, and McCarthy won it, and the vast majority that supported him in that aren't happy about the 20-odd weirdos playing the I-can-be-more-reactionary-than-thou game for attention. Hence the endless votes.

 

It must be said though that McCarthy is no level-headed statesman. It's hilarious because his route to power was giving the reactionaries everything they wanted, and they've still got the long knives out for him. No one knows how this ends, including those involved.

[Lovecraft]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

I'd love if half a dozen progressives in the Republicans got sick of the MAGA wreckers and voted for Jeffries.

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

I'd love if half a dozen progressives in the Republicans got sick of the MAGA wreckers and voted for Jeffries.

 

 

It would also be great if they rode in on unicorns, which are just as plentiful as progressive Republicans at this point.