U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

I think you still have to rate him among the top 5 American Presidents even if his legend is assuredly much larger than he deserves. One of the reasons I didn't answer your question straight up is that in his own way yes, he was considerably more opposed to slavery than his predecessors since before his election to the Senate, but it was limited to opposing the expansion of slavery. (Fillmore, Pierce, and Buchanan all in their own way effectively promoted the expansion and intensification of it.) He certainly held conventionally (though by no means universally held) racist views about Black people at the time, but he had made his career opposing the expansion of slavery.  The Emancipation Proclamation, as limited and entirely tactical in the framework of the war as it was, was still sweeping and extremely controversial even for the North.

 

While I think it's worth remembering who the real abolitionist leaders in the country were—Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Thaddeus Stevens, John Brown, etc.—none of them could have become President, and most of them regarded Lincoln as honorable, steadfast, and well-intentioned, even if he had to be dragged along to do the right thing multiple times. Douglass's comments at his funeral seem relevant and accurate: "Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined." Grant, who was a more committed egalitarian than Lincoln ever was, nonetheless regarded him with a degree of awe, and sobbed openly on news of his death.

 

I'd say it's almost always a mistake to look to history for "Great Men" who "changed the course of history" and whatnot, and no different with Lincoln, but the man had his moments and he rose to the challenge better than any of his other contemporaries did.

Thanks, bud. 👍

[JFK-1]

I like how it's being pointed out in this video that Fox, who usually have nothing negative to say about Trump or Jan 6, GOP or whatever. But are forced to talk about this disaster while having to concede it's a total farce.

 

Did it never occur to them that if you put the lunatics in charge of the asylum there will be no roof to crazy? A kind of Moore's law for loony tunes. You think that last thing we did was crazy? Wait till you see this. They're even starting to compete to be the craziest.

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

It has begun

 

[Mikey1874]

18 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

The rebels are all voting for this second term Congressman from Florida who has already said he doesn't want to be Speaker.

 

They have no idea what they're doing.

 

The strategy seems straightforward. They want McCarthy to withdraw. Then they will put forward the person they want. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The strategy seems straightforward. They want McCarthy to withdraw. Then they will put forward the person they want. 

 

All fine and good, but they've managed to royally piss off around 200 GOP members, almost all of whom they need to vote in a speaker. What are the odds that if they pick someone, the other 200 are going to go, "yeah, sure, fine, y'all win?"  For that matter they've already put forward three different alternatives, who keep not getting votes. This is why you have a party caucus election before the Speaker election (which McCarthy won easily), so you can get on the same page. They tried a revolt there and they lost, so they're trying this taking-the-House-hostage situation, but they have no endgame at all.

 

As I said there's almost no moderates left in the GOP, but there are some who actually want to pass bills and have a functioning House, and while they're not that many there's still plenty to block a Jim Jordan or other nomination.  Further, with such a narrow majority, in order to do anything at all they're going to have to have party unity across the board (and that's before anything they do goes to the Democratically controlled Senate or Biden's desk).

 

And I have to repeat that McCarthy's MO has basically been, "give the Freedom Caucus everything they want, tell the rest of the GOP they have to suck it up." And they're still revolting (har har).

 

This is why nobody has any idea how or when this will end. The rebels are entirely acting on performance and bravado. They have no rational parameters at all.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

A Democrat voted for Jeffries saying it like the "Leeroy Jenkins" meme so at least there's still LOLs coming out of this.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2023/01/04/leeroy-jenkins-warcraft-congress/

[Maple Leaf]

19 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

The rebels are all voting for this second term Congressman from Florida who has already said he doesn't want to be Speaker.

 

They have no idea what they're doing.

 

These GOP clowns are going to be making the laws for the next two years.  I've heard a couple of so-called moderate Republicans saying that Washington is "broken" and they need to fix it.  FFS, they can't even agree on a Speaker.  It's a farce.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

16 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

These GOP clowns are going to be making the laws for the next two years.  I've heard a couple of so-called moderate Republicans saying that Washington is "broken" and they need to fix it.  FFS, they can't even agree on a Speaker.  It's a farce.

 

They'll be extremely limited in what new laws they can make by the narrowness of their majority, the Democratic Senate, and Biden's veto pen. But what they can do is hold spending bills and debt ceiling raises hostage while they demand ridiculous things, which could trigger a US debt default and cause global economic chaos, which is plenty terrifying.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

All morning the chat out of the GOP camp has been progress, concessions, positive movement, a good mood, blah blah blah.

 

Voting has started and it's already plain McCarthy's going to lose again.

[Cade]

Matt Gaetz just nominated Donald Trump as speaker of the house

 

[Cade]

7th round fails

 

 

[Maple Leaf]

51 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

All morning the chat out of the GOP camp has been progress, concessions, positive movement, a good mood, blah blah blah.

 

Voting has started and it's already plain McCarthy's going to lose again.

 

Is it possible that Jeffries could be Speaker?  All he needs is 6 Republicans to vote for him and he's over the line.  McCarthy needs 15 to change their vote.

 

I know that it's highly unlikely, maybe even absurd to think of it.

[redjambo]

21 hours ago, Cade said:

I'd love if half a dozen progressives in the Republicans got sick of the MAGA wreckers and voted for Jeffries.

 

 

I'd love it too but it would no doubt be political suicide for the Republicans involved so, imo, it will never happen.

 

What gets me as an outsider is the ridiculousness of many American governmental procedures and mechanisms. Electoral college voting, filibusters, tacking very controversial bills onto otherwise non-contentious bills, the ability of one arm of government to almost completely block another. It doesn't seem designed for the 21st century and definitely not for anything approaching consensus politics. In almost any other democracy, some mechanism would have now been invoked in a situation like this to effectively say "Ok, you can;t make your fecking minds up, back to the polls you go!" but in the US, nope.

[ri Alban]

Can the the American people not see all these ***** aren't interested in doing good for the people, they just want voted in for themselves. This would be a reason to invade the capitol.

[Cade]

Gaetz votes for Donald Trump again in the 8th round

 

[Lovecraft]

33 minutes ago, Cade said:

Gaetz votes for Donald Trump again in the 8th round

 

Can't wait for that areshole's world to come crashing down.

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Is it possible that Jeffries could be Speaker?  All he needs is 6 Republicans to vote for him and he's over the line.  McCarthy needs 15 to change their vote.

 

I know that it's highly unlikely, maybe even absurd to think of it.

 

Since no one knows how this ends, I can't say it's impossible, but I think it's unlikely.  Most I read agree that a very weakened Speaker McCarthy is the likely outcome but by no means a sure thing and its hard to see the way there. (Here's a link behind the paywall for Josh Marshall's guesses on what happens: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/guesswork/sharetoken/aZB8TxrviMan It's from two days ago but still mostly relevant.)

 

The only way I see Jeffries or any other Democrat involved in this is if this drags out for weeks and some major conservative outlets (including some Murdoch shops like the NY Post, the WSJ, and big Fox News talking heads like Hannity, but also some of the independent ones) get completely fed up and say, right, at this point the rebels are worse than a few moderate Democrats, go and cut a centrist bipartisan deal. That's unimaginable right now but who knows what happens if this farce goes to 50+ ballots or some such.

 

The other possibility that involves Democrats is if McCarthy agrees to things like no debt ceiling shitehousery and an agreement to bring Senate bills to the floor, they could vote "present" and let him in with less than a majority. But since he's made the shitehousery part of his campaigning to get there, it seems more likely that might involve a non-McCarthy alternative.

 

Who TF knows at this point.

[Cade]

8th round fails

 

[Maple Leaf]

12 minutes ago, Cade said:

8th round fails

 

 

9 now.  This is boring in the extreme.  I wish they'd come up with a faster method of counting the votes.  Calling out 435 names every time is such a waste of time.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

18 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

9 now.  This is boring in the extreme.  I wish they'd come up with a faster method of counting the votes.  Calling out 435 names every time is such a waste of time.

And no movement this round either. The rebels have now picked yet another random GOP caucus leader whom they didn't talk to first to nominate (and who himself is supporting McCarthy).

 

9 votes now equals 1923. With the imminent failure, the next round will make it the most since the Civil War.

[Cade]

May as well get comfortable, it's going to be a long night.

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cade

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Names are changing but the overall count hasn't moved at all. 20 Republicans voting for other people, one continuing to vote "present" since the 4th round.

 

All that grovelling, all that self-debasement, all that weakening of the Speaker's power . . . hasn't even moved a single vote.

[Notts1874]

Boebert nominated Hern. He didn't even vote for himself 🤣🤣🤣🤣. 

[Cade]

6 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Boebert nominated Hern. He didn't even vote for himself 🤣🤣🤣🤣. 

She only nominated Hern so she could do some pathetic trolling.

 

"I nominate Kevin................................HERN"

 

[Des Lynam]

USA! USA! USA! USA! 

 

The American dream, God and getting results for the American people. 

 

It's robotic nonsense. 

[Des Lynam]

We're going for ten.....

[Notts1874]

I'm sure there is a quote from Einstein that sums up what's happening here!!! 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

10 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

USA! USA! USA! USA! 

 

The American dream, God and getting results for the American people. 

 

It's robotic nonsense. 

Be better if they talked about leveling up, delivering for the country, unlocking the tremendous potential that had been shackled to our NATO membership, and kicking on?

 

[Cade]

7 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I'm sure there is a quote from Einstein that sums up what's happening here!!! 

 

"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character"

 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

9 now.  This is boring in the extreme.  I wish they'd come up with a faster method of counting the votes.  Calling out 435 names every time is such a waste of time.

 

They do have electronic voting. They use it. 

 

But this is a traditional key decision which only ever nowadays is done in one vote. Apart from this time. 

[milky_26]

10 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I'm sure there is a quote from Einstein that sums up what's happening here!!! 

 

The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.

 

 

[Cade]

8 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I'm sure there is a quote from Einstein that sums up what's happening here!!! 

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

"Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value."

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

 

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

I know what you were alluding to, but Einstein never actually said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

[Notts1874]

6 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character"

 

I was thinking more about his definition of insanity. 

 

Fun fact, the last time it got to 10 votes Davvy Crockett was a Congressman. 

[Notts1874]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

"Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value."

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

 

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

I know what you were alluding to, but Einstein never actually said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

Prove it 🤣🤣🤣

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Hern, who is admittedly a far more reasonable choice than Donalds (whom Cori Bush was 100% correct in saying was being used as an unfortunate prop), appears to be gaining a handful more of the rebels' votes. If the long knives do come out for McCarthy among the party's core, he's at least not a ridiculous choice to end up as Speaker.

 

That would mean the bulk of the party giving the rebels what they want, which I am fairly sure even if they give up on McCarthy, they do not want to do.

[Des Lynam]

6 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

Be better if they talked about leveling up, delivering for the country, unlocking the tremendous potential that had been shackled to our NATO membership, and kicking on?

 

Juan Ciscomani was getting on my nerves there. We’re at the stage where no one is interested in hearing the same tired prepared speeches. 
 

Will this voting impasse just continue until the rebels get bored or McCarthy removes himself? 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, Notts1874 said:

Prove it 🤣🤣🤣

I hunted down that quote once upon a time. The best written source for it is a novel, which was apparently from a third hand thing that the novel's author heard from someone who'd heard Einstein say it out loud in passing.

 

The other unfortunate thing is that no one knows what context he said it in, but it's somewhat likely that it was part of him dismissing quantum mechanics, an unfortunate decision which made the last 20+ years of his work utterly irrelevant today.

 

Right, anyway, pass the popcorn.

[Notts1874]

What a surprise, he's lost the 10th vote. Absolutely nobody saw that coming!!! 

[Cade]

7 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Prove it 🤣🤣🤣

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Just now, Des Lynam said:

Juan Ciscomani was getting on my nerves there. We’re at the stage where no one is interested in hearing the same tired prepared speeches. 
 

Will this voting impasse just continue until the rebels get bored or McCarthy removes himself? 

 

Not to be glib, but first time watching CSPAN? The tired speeches are part of how Congress works. They were every bit as bad on the night of Jan 6 after the tear gas cleared and the reactionaries kept objecting to electors.

 

No one knows how this ends. The rebels don't have an endgame plan. The GOP leadership doesn't have an endgame plan. The Democrats could easily help end it but there's no reason for them to step in while the GOP is tearing itself apart and getting horrible press, and they've basically said they'll decide how to respond if anyone in the GOP asks, but so far they haven't because absolute demonization of the Democrats is the only policy platform the GOP has left at this point.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

What a surprise, he's lost the 10th vote. Absolutely nobody saw that coming!!! 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Led Tasso

[Des Lynam]

13 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Not to be glib, but first time watching CSPAN? The tired speeches are part of how Congress works. They were every bit as bad on the night of Jan 6 after the tear gas cleared and the reactionaries kept objecting to electors.

 

No one knows how this ends. The rebels don't have an endgame plan. The GOP leadership doesn't have an endgame plan. The Democrats could easily help end it but there's no reason for them to step in while the GOP is tearing itself apart and getting horrible press, and they've basically said they'll decide how to respond if anyone in the GOP asks, but so far they haven't because absolute demonization of the Democrats is the only policy platform the GOP has left at this point.

My interest in American politics stretches as far as Democratic/Republican presidential primaries, race for President and the House Judiciary Committee. 
 

This is just a battle of attrition now. Has McCarthy got anymore concessions to give? ABC news claiming a deal is close apparently. 
 

 

[Unknown user]

43 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

 

 

I hate musicals, but as I understand things this has Daveed Diggs in it, and all I know about him is that he kicks absolute hoop.

This is his band if you don't know them 👍

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

48 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I hate musicals, but as I understand things this has Daveed Diggs in it, and all I know about him is that he kicks absolute hoop.

This is his band if you don't know them 👍

 

 

 

Yes, that Diggs as Thomas Jefferson, whom he plays in the second act. In the first act he's Lafayette and lays down this masterpiece in the middle of this song.

 

 

[JFK-1]

McCarthy negotiating with "legislative terrorists"

 

If elected speaker, McCarthy will have the title but not the power

 

 

 

[trotter]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

"Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value."

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

 

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

I know what you were alluding to, but Einstein never actually said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

I've always liked, "you should make things as simple as possible, but no simpler."

I use that a lot at work, it's served me well over the years

[Notts1874]

Let's see if the GOP can actually win a vote 🤣🤣🤣

[JFK-1]

It's already been mentioned here and is quite clear overall that there is no moderate GOP, what you see is what you get no matter how this farce ends. McCarthy just lost an 11th vote. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

11 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

It's already been mentioned here and is quite clear overall that there is no moderate GOP, what you see is what you get no matter how this farce ends. McCarthy just lost an 11th vote. 

Yep. Not only no moderate GOP, but no actual policy agenda. Just “Dem bad.”

[JFK-1]

12 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

Yep. Not only no moderate GOP, but no actual policy agenda. Just “Dem bad.”

 

Indeed, they never speak of governance. What will we do about inflation? Dunno, too busy on more important matters like searching for Hunter Bidens laptop. Speaking of which the latest news is it's being held hostage by China. Don't ask me how that link up occurs.

 

Maybe a silver lining is surely this is making them unelectable for the foreseeable future. And we got lucky in some respects. Can you imagine what could be playing out right now if Trump actually had won the election then Putin launched his invasion?

 

It's disturbing to contemplate. When  it happened an out of office Trump called Putin a strategic genius while everyone else was calling him a psycho,, do you seriously think that would have been any different if Trump had still been in office? No chance, Trump is like the GOP, what you see is what you get, always.

 

They need to just let the whole house burn down and start again from scratch. Reinvent themselves back into just malevolent ****s rather than full blown cuckoo malevolent ****s.

 

I saw the current GOP described as basically run by online trolls. Whatever the latest crazy shite doing the rounds on right wing social media is, that's their focus.  They're pandering to a minority of internet wackos. The lunatics truly have taken over the asylum.