U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[J.T.F.Robertson]

4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Utter bollox.

 

Christ, the whole "trial" thing has foregone conclusion written all over it and consequently, is a complete waste of time, but what he said is most assuredly not "bollox".

Whatever the motives behind all this genuine "bollox", being a Republican surely doesn't mean you're obligated to defend a man who stood there and gloried in the fact his "patriots" were defending the only real option for America, and has shown he'll do whatever it takes to continue massaging his monstrous ego.

You CAN'T believe he gives a shit about anyone or thing, other than himself, Ivanka, et al.

 

Dinnae get you at all.

 

[Sharpie]

News coming out that McCarthy asked Trump to do something to stop the riots, Trump refused, even when told Pence was in danger. Trumps lawyers at the Impeachment today saying Trump never knew that  Pence was in danger, it is now alleged they lied. I am one now but I was never a daily scanner of U.S. News, but I can't believe now how often the words liar, lies, and lying come out as evidence in these political matters.

[ri Alban]

Biden should make sure he does a very good job and Trump will be an irrelevance. Yes he'll have a big vote, but not all the Republican vote next time. Not all Republicans are mental. 

[A Boy Named Crow]

People all over the world are basically just trying to make the best life they can for themselves, and it's the normal folk in America I feel sorry for. As a nation state it's a complete mess.

 

It doesn't look after its people, the government seems hamstrung by corporations and influence groups, it causes trouble around the world...and now it looks like a significant portion of the party that enjoys a monumental structural advantage in elections has decided the previous level of madness wasn't enough, and have turned it up to 11.

 

Trump incited the mob,  everybody knows it,  the Republicans know it, but they will acquit him regardless. 

 

What kind of country will the USA be in ten years time? Doesn't look good...

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 hours ago, J.T.F.Robertson said:

 

Christ, the whole "trial" thing has foregone conclusion written all over it and consequently, is a complete waste of time, but what he said is most assuredly not "bollox".

Whatever the motives behind all this genuine "bollox", being a Republican surely doesn't mean you're obligated to defend a man who stood there and gloried in the fact his "patriots" were defending the only real option for America, and has shown he'll do whatever it takes to continue massaging his monstrous ego.

You CAN'T believe he gives a shit about anyone or thing, other than himself, Ivanka, et al.

 

Dinnae get you at all.

 

 

I'm not defending Trump. I cannot abide the man. I am questioning the Democrats and their behaviour. 

 

I'm sorry you cannot see that. 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

10 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Allow me to illustrate what the real utter pish is. The real utter pish is this rambling nonsense you're spewing about peripheral events such as the dead cop and autopsies. Nothing to do with this process.

More utter pish about the Democrats supposedly forcing this impeachment simply because they don't like Trump. That's utter pish.

This would have happened to any incumbent who did what Trump has done. If Obama had done this the Republicans and their right wing mouth pieces would have been going insane about it. They would have been demanding jail time far less impeachment.

And if you don't grasp that you're far out of touch with reality.  

Excellent post.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

11 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Allow me to illustrate what the real utter pish is. The real utter pish is this rambling nonsense you're spewing about peripheral events such as the dead cop and autopsies. Nothing to do with this process.

More utter pish about the Democrats supposedly forcing this impeachment simply because they don't like Trump. That's utter pish.

This would have happened to any incumbent who did what Trump has done. If Obama had done this the Republicans and their right wing mouth pieces would have been going insane about it. They would have been demanding jail time far less impeachment.

And if you don't grasp that you're far out of touch with reality.  

Another excellent post. The Trumpets are deluded.

[The Real Maroonblood]

51 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Another excellent post. The Trumpets are deluded.

The Trumpets think it’s a witch-hunt.

[JFK-1]

10 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Whatever. I just have zero interest in having any sort of dialogue with you. As you will (possibly) see I had an excellent discussion with others where views were exchanged politely and constructively. Different opinions, of course but with people like you that's never going to happen so toodle pip. 

 

You have sero interest in the nonsense you post here being illustrated as such. You really need to step back and take a look at yourself. You have the gall to talk about being polite?

Reality check, you were the one who came in with the pish and bollox comments not me. I responded in a similar vein but still actually said something on topic with some rationale to it.

And constructively? Again step back and take a look at yourself. Two words which were "utter bollox" are constructive in your reality? That deconstructs everything I said in your reality? Unreal.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The Trumpets think it’s a witch-hunt.

It's as if the coup attempt was little worse than the jolly boys outing to Margate.

[JFK-1]

2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The Trumpets think it’s a witch-hunt.

 

I have my doubts about that. They may say that but for a huge number of them it's simply parroting one of Trumps few lines. The hard core are simply racist bigoted pieces of shit who will follow the cult leader no matter how insane.

Like the Republican Senators in fact. Does anyone seriously believe the utter tripe being trotted out in defence of Trump during this impeachment hearing?

Those Republicans certainly do not and neither does a majority of the nation.   An even bigger majority than has been published don't believe it they just wont admit they don't believe it.

That's the state of affairs in this nation. A political party can effectively openly say they believe batshit crazy crap everyone knows isn't true and still posit themselves as serious people worthy of leadership.

It's scary on some level.  

[Sharpie]

4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I'm not defending Trump. I cannot abide the man. I am questioning the Democrats and their behaviour. 

 

I'm sorry you cannot see that. 

  

I can accept that, but there would be no Democrat behaviour if Trump hadn't lied a he does about the election results. The support of  many of the elected members of the Republican party have placed Trump in a position where many now view him as the Republican Party. There is no doubt he holds the loyalty of a large proportion of Republican voters and this has impacted those who will need their vote to be reelected. In your own case you do express views that although intended to be as a Democrat critic because of the foregoing can be seen as Trump supporting. 

[Justin Z]

58 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

  

I can accept that, but there would be no Democrat behaviour if Trump hadn't lied a he does about the election results. The support of  many of the elected members of the Republican party have placed Trump in a position where many now view him as the Republican Party. There is no doubt he holds the loyalty of a large proportion of Republican voters and this has impacted those who will need their vote to be reelected. In your own case you do express views that although intended to be as a Democrat critic because of the foregoing can be seen as Trump supporting. 

 

Spot on, Bob. Big difference between parroting easily debunked right wing Trumpist pish about the Democrats and the impeachment, and legitimately criticising them.

[JackLadd]

Nice Biden can launch a coup attempt in four years should he lose by 8m and 80 electoral college votes. The January exception, aka the Trump exception, provides a window of opportunity to overthrow the vote by mob rule. Needs to become a tradition like the world series.

[Riccarton3]

2 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I have my doubts about that. They may say that but for a huge number of them it's simply parroting one of Trumps few lines. The hard core are simply racist bigoted pieces of shit who will follow the cult leader no matter how insane.

Like the Republican Senators in fact. Does anyone seriously believe the utter tripe being trotted out in defence of Trump during this impeachment hearing?

Those Republicans certainly do not and neither does a majority of the nation.   An even bigger majority than has been published don't believe it they just wont admit they don't believe it.

That's the state of affairs in this nation. A political party can effectively openly say they believe batshit crazy crap everyone knows isn't true and still posit themselves as serious people worthy of leadership.

It's scary on some level.  

When Trump was elected it was clear from his advisors there was a different way now of engagement.  This continues now. There is no reasoning with a cult. Too much has been invested.

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

The Impeachment Managers want to call witnesses due to new evidence coming to light yesterday. This is pretty major news, and was most definitely not on the cards yesterday. They want Republican Rep Jaime Herrera, who voted to impeach, and who came forward yesterday with information about a conversation between Kevin McCarthy and Trump that helps the case...

 

 

In the meantime McConnell has confirmed that he will vote to acquit but says it was a ‘close call’. Meh.

 

 

[Riccarton3]

6 minutes ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

The House Managers want to call witnesses due to new evidence coming to light yesterday. This is pretty major news. They want Republican Rep Jaime Herrera, who voted to impeach, and who came forward yesterday with information about a conversation between Kevin McCarthy and Trump that helps the case...

 

 

In the meantime McConnell has confirmed that he will vote to acquit but says it was a ‘close call’. Meh.

 

 

Says it all he feels the need to qualify his vote. 

 

Almost a form of trolling.

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

8 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

Says it all he feels the need to qualify his vote. 

 

Almost a form of trolling.

Just another political calculation for him.

At least 51 votes in the Senate are needed to call witnesses and several Republicans have voted for the motion so it is going to happen. Trial may not end today after all.

Murkowski, Collins, Sasse and Romney all vote for witnesses... as does Lindsay Graham who changes his vote from no to yes which makes me wonder what he’s up to (probably wants to do some whataboutism and try to call some Dems as witnesses?)

 

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

Trump will still almost certainly be acquitted but this made me smile...

 

 

[Maple Leaf]

There's a question that's bugging me and I'm hoping that someone with knowledge of American law, like @Justin Z or @Kalamazoo Jambo, can clarify it. Maybe I'm just being thick.

 

The Republicans are saying that Trump can't be tried in the Senate for his alleged crimes because he's no longer president.  

But, as he committed those alleged crimes while he was president, he can't be tried in civilian court either because presidents are immune from criminal charges.

 

This sounds to me like a modern day Catch-22.  Does Trump walk away scot-free simply because of the timing of this whole thing?

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

There's a question that's bugging me and I'm hoping that someone with knowledge of American law, like @Justin Z or @Kalamazoo Jambo, can clarify it. Maybe I'm just being thick.

 

The Republicans are saying that Trump can't be tried in the Senate for his alleged crimes because he's no longer president.  

But, as he committed those alleged crimes while he was president, he can't be tried in civilian court either because presidents are immune from criminal charges.

 

This sounds to me like a modern day Catch-22.  Does Trump walk away scot-free simply because of the timing of this whole thing?

 

 

Definitely a basket case country.

 

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

There's a question that's bugging me and I'm hoping that someone with knowledge of American law, like @Justin Z or @Kalamazoo Jambo, can clarify it. Maybe I'm just being thick.

 

The Republicans are saying that Trump can't be tried in the Senate for his alleged crimes because he's no longer president.  

But, as he committed those alleged crimes while he was president, he can't be tried in civilian court either because presidents are immune from criminal charges.

 

This sounds to me like a modern day Catch-22.  Does Trump walk away scot-free simply because of the timing of this whole thing?

 

 

This is a good explainer...

 

https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/jul/26/could-trump-be-indicted-after-leaving-office-muell/
 

Basically, it should be possible for a former President to be indicted/tried after they leave office. Even McConnell agrees - here’s what he emailed to his colleagues earlier today...

 

 

At the same time, the vast majority of serious constitutional experts think that impeachment (and certainly an impeachment trial) can occur after a President leaves office.

 

[Bindy Badgy]

14 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

There's a question that's bugging me and I'm hoping that someone with knowledge of American law, like @Justin Z or @Kalamazoo Jambo, can clarify it. Maybe I'm just being thick.

 

The Republicans are saying that Trump can't be tried in the Senate for his alleged crimes because he's no longer president.  

But, as he committed those alleged crimes while he was president, he can't be tried in civilian court either because presidents are immune from criminal charges.

 

This sounds to me like a modern day Catch-22.  Does Trump walk away scot-free simply because of the timing of this whole thing?

 

 

 

It's an any excuse will do situation. They know that they can say and do whatever they want. Their voters will not hold them to account irrespective of how badly they behave. You just have to look at the Supreme Court situation for evidence of this.

[Maple Leaf]

7 minutes ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

This is a good explainer...

 

https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/jul/26/could-trump-be-indicted-after-leaving-office-muell/
 

Basically, it should be possible for a former President to be indicted/tried after they leave office. Even McConnell agrees - here’s what he emailed to his colleagues earlier today...

 

 

At the same time, the vast majority of serious constitutional experts think that impeachment (and certainly an impeachment trial) can occur after a President leaves office.

 

 

Thanks.

 

If I interpret that correctly, Trump could still be federally charged by the DOJ for the findings in the Mueller Report, as well as for his actions in trying to reverse the election results? 

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

9 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Thanks.

 

If I interpret that correctly, Trump could still be federally charged by the DOJ for the findings in the Mueller Report, as well as for his actions in trying to reverse the election results? 

 

Theoretically, yes.

 

Also, just to be clear, Biden should be nowhere near that decision-making process (not that he’d want to be).

[Sharpie]

7 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Thanks.

 

If I interpret that correctly, Trump could still be federally charged by the DOJ for the findings in the Mueller Report, as well as for his actions in trying to reverse the election results? 

 There have been some suggestions on the media that there are a long list of State charges that can now be laid against Trump.The tough part for him is that he will have to pay for his own legal counsel, and if the suggestions that he is actually broke are true he could still hurt badly. There are further suggestions that he will in the near future head out having rallies, and making personal appearances all as a source for donations, but his expenses I would suggest will be high because there are becoming fewer and fewer lawyers prepared to defend him. Again I would suggest if the ones that appeared for him in the last week are any guide I would say the old you get what you pay for is appropriate. 

Trump as an entity that matters is finished, he can still feed excrement to a bunch of rioting loonies, but the saner of those groups will see fact and reconsider their support and actions. I spent thirty six years of my life dealing  with people with every background, education, moral or immoral values, and learned from my old Hielan' mother, that "theres none as queer as folks". A true statement if I ever heard one.

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

So, they’re now reading Jaime Herrera Buetler’s statement into the record.  Maybe no witnesses after all?

 

Edit: yep, No witnesses. Looks like trial will conclude today after all.

[Maple Leaf]

1 hour ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

So, they’re now reading Jaime Herrera Buetler’s statement into the record.  Maybe no witnesses after all?

 

Edit: yep, No witnesses. Looks like trial will conclude today after all.

 

We should post our predictions on this thread.

 

My prediction is less than 55 votes for conviction.

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

On 07/02/2021 at 13:57, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

Best guess on my part is 54 votes for conviction with Murkowski, Romney, Sasse and Toomey voting with Dems. Collins is possible but not convinced she has a spine.

To answer @Maple Leaf...

 

I’m going to say 55 with Collins, Romney, Sasse, Murkowzki and Toomey. Collins and Toomey are the ones I’m least sure about. Also assuming that all Dems would vote to impeach, even Manchin.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

So, they’re now reading Jaime Herrera Buetler’s statement into the record.  Maybe no witnesses after all?

 

Edit: yep, No witnesses. Looks like trial will conclude today after all.

So it'll be not guilty today then. 

[DETTY29]

56.

 

One random additional.

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

9 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

So it'll be not guilty today then. 

Yep, although the alternative was not guilty a couple of weeks from now. Would have liked to see witnesses but it also wouldn’t have changed the result as most of the Republican Senators are impervious to evidence.

[Cade]

3 minutes ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

Yep, although the alternative was not guilty a couple of weeks from now. Would have liked to see witnesses but it also wouldn’t have changed the result as most of the Republican Senators are impervious to evidence.

Most of them spent the "trial" doodling on notepads or on social media on their phones.

FFS a bunch of them had private meetings with Trump's legal team during every feckin recess.

 

 

[Justin Z]

10 minutes ago, Barack said:

Win a vote to call witnesses. Then not actually call witnesses. 

 

Make a closed doors "deal", that makes them seem even less competent and weak, is one of the most Democrat things ever.

 

@Justin Z was bang on the money.

 

🥺

[The Real Maroonblood]

21 minutes ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

Yep, although the alternative was not guilty a couple of weeks from now. Would have liked to see witnesses but it also wouldn’t have changed the result as most of the Republican Senators are impervious to evidence.

I think it was necessary to go for impeachment because what happened. 

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

4 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I think it was necessary to go for impeachment because what happened. 

100%

[Sharpie]

Good news,Bad news, Trump wins now he will feel he is untouchable and his army will agree. Stand by for his winner speech where if not direct he will tell his admiring followers the die has been cast, the election was stolen now lets get it back, no violence but if you are attacked it is your Constitutional right to defend yourself. The Republican party has shown that what you done was correct, onward and upwards.

[redjambo]

I'll go 57, only because in the minute chance it happens, I'll then become a political guru.

[redjambo]

Collins - "guilty".

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

Burr and Cassidy vote to convict. We could end up at 57.

[redjambo]

Murkowski - "guilty".

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

7 minutes ago, redjambo said:

I'll go 57, only because in the minute chance it happens, I'll then become a political guru.

[redjambo]

Romney - guilty

[redjambo]

Sasse - guilty

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

Biggest question mark now is probably Toomey.

 

Edit: votes guilty, still looks like 57.

[redjambo]

Toomey - guilty

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

57-43 final vote. Trump acquitted as a guilty verdict needed 67, nonetheless 7 Republicans voting with Democrats was significant.

[redjambo]

Expected loss, but new political guru on the scene.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

4 minutes ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

57-43 final vote. Trump acquitted as a guilty verdict needed 67, nonetheless 7 Republicans voting with Democrats was significant.

Sends out a great message to his followers. 

Say and do what you want.

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

5 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Expected loss, but new political guru on the scene.