U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

It has a propaganda machine unlike any the world has ever seen, and that's why you get ideas like "Republicans are better stewards of the economy" spreading far and wide.

A propaganda machine unlike any the world has never seen? Nazi Germany? Stalin's Soviet Union? Mao's China? Must have missed the news of the American Gulag and American "re-education" schemes and American Concentration Camps killing millions.

I really don't understand what good ridiculous hyperbole like this really achieves.

And for some lucky and rich people the Republicans are better stewards of the economy if all they are interested in is the protection and growth of their own wealth.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Ulysses]

18 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

The Democrats will respond with "it's not us, it's Trump", thereby handing him the same advantage that they gave him in 2016. 

 

And today we hear that Trump's people are looking to turn the 2018 midterms into a referendum on Trump's favourite subject - Trump.

 

He might win it, too.

 

The Hill: Trump allies want to turn midterms into ‘impeachment referendum’

[SpruceBringsteen]

5 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

It has a propaganda machine unlike any the world has ever seen, and that's why you get ideas like "Republicans are better stewards of the economy" spreading far and wide.

 

It blows my mind. Republicans calling Democrats Leftists and Commies. If that's how they view folk who're basically a "nice" version of themselves, then they'd have an absolute frigging prolapse if they read some of the Scottish Green Party's policies.

 

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

It blows my mind. Republicans calling Democrats Leftists and Commies. If that's how they view folk who're basically a "nice" version of themselves, then they'd have an absolute frigging prolapse if they read some of the Scottish Green Party's policies.

 

 

 

Republicans have been calling Democrats leftists and commies since at least the late 1970s.  I think it was their way of recovering ground after the Nixon fiasco, and they've never gotten out of the habit.

[SpruceBringsteen]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Republicans have been calling Democrats leftists and commies since at least the late 1970s.  I think it was their way of recovering ground after the Nixon fiasco, and they've never gotten out of the habit.

 

What with every single one of their boogeymen (blacks, gays etc) having to slowly be removed from their tragic lexicon, you wonder where it'll all end up when the kid from Stranger Things is running on the Democrat ticket in 2048. 

 

"You want to vote for this guy? This guy who didn't even own a Lego Death Star?!"

 

[Ulysses]

Trump passed another milestone, when the number of false claims he has made since taking office passed the 3,000 mark.

 

His rate of spoofing and bullshit is increasing.  Overall, he has made an average of 6.5 false claims every day since taking office.  In his first 100 days, his average was 4.9 false claims per day.  In the last two months, his scoring rate has been 9 false claims per day.

 

 

The Washington Post: President Trump has made 3,001 false or misleading claims so far

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

What with every single one of their boogeymen (blacks, gays etc) having to slowly be removed from their tragic lexicon, you wonder where it'll all end up when the kid from Stranger Things is running on the Democrat ticket in 2048. 

 

"You want to vote for this guy? This guy who didn't even own a Lego Death Star?!"

 

 

And yet since they started the boogeymen have survived and even thrived, and that's why the conservatives get more and more shrill and hysterical.

[Cade]

Three situations:

Trump answers Mueller's questions truthfuly. Result: Trump goes to jail.

Trump answers Mueller's questions untruthfully. Result: Trump goes to jail.

Trump pleads the 5th on Mueller's questions. Result: Impeached.

 

 

[Maple Leaf]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Trump passed another milestone, when the number of false claims he has made since taking office passed the 3,000 mark.

 

His rate of spoofing and bullshit is increasing.  Overall, he has made an average of 6.5 false claims every day since taking office.  In his first 100 days, his average was 4.9 false claims per day.  In the last two months, his scoring rate has been 9 false claims per day.

 

 

The Washington Post: President Trump has made 3,001 false or misleading claims so far

 

His approval rating continues to hover unchanged around 35-40%.  It seems that his acolytes don't care whether or not he's telling the truth.

 

I have a relative in the US, a college-educated, Christian, Republican white woman, who has posted on Facebook that Trump is the greatest POTUS ever.  Some of my other relatives there, also Christian, also Republican, also white, refuse to talk about the man, they are so embarrassed.

 

Needless to say, when I paid my annual visit to them last July, I drank the beer, gave them a lesson in euchre, and talked about the weather! 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

First things, @alfajambo, from a personality perspective, you and I are fine. From the standpoint of religion and politics, I cannot for the life of me understand how someone such as you with deeply held religious principles can consistently stand up for a man so craven we now know he conned his way onto the Fortune 500 list and has been trading on his fake wealth since, and now we find out he forced his doctor to fake his medical report and just sent his goons to raid that doctor's office. There isn't a single deadly sin or commandment he hasn't both broken and then bragged about breaking. He doesn't have a theological thought in his head couldn't name the four Gospels if you spotted him three, falsely claims church membership and religion but has never shown up at his supposed congregation, and as President perpetuates all the sins for which Jeremiah lambasted the leadership of Jerusalem. To put this in blunt theological terms, he represents the blustering masculinity and worship of gold that Aaron tried to worship when he forged the golden calf. He is the greatest moral abomination to hold high office in the history of this country, I simply cannot understand how you don't see that.

 

Yes, it's infuriating and nightmarish living through this. What @shaun.lawson said above about what the right in this country already thinks about anyone who's not staunch conservative underlies why I've given up on even having a meaningful conversation with them. For far too long too many Democrats, even progressives/leftists such as myself, have tried to make peace with the right, thinking that somehow it was just all a misunderstanding that divided us. The election and continued support of this monster, his child-stealing ICE, his murderous far-right hate group fan boys, and kleptocratic remnant in the GOP is as open a declaration of outright hostility towards me and those I care about as I care to try to imagine.

Francis is right that I and others have spent too much time ignoring those left behind by this economy, but the solution is not to cozy up to the Trump supporters, who on the whole are the winners in this fallout. They're the enemy. The people we need to ally with are those who've given up on both the Democratic party and the left as a whole as a movement that offers them any help at all. They didn't vote for Trump, they just didn't vote (sometimes because they were blocked from voting, but anyway).

[Mysterion]

On 01/05/2018 at 20:45, Maple Leaf said:

I have a relative in the US, a college-educated, Christian, Republican white woman, who has posted on Facebook that Trump is the greatest POTUS ever.  Some of my other relatives there, also Christian, also Republican, also white, refuse to talk about the man, they are so embarrassed.

 

We have seen similar with my wife’s (thankfully) distant relatives.

 

They are staunch Reps and have compromised their beliefs to the point that (should life after death be real) they’ll spend the afterlife burning in hell. 

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

Giuliani announces on Hannity’s show that Trump repaid Cohen the $130,000 Stormy Daniels hush money, contradicting both Trump and Cohen...

[Maple Leaf]

47 minutes ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

Giuliani announces on Hannity’s show that Trump repaid Cohen the $130,000 Stormy Daniels hush money, contradicting both Trump and Cohen...

 

*gasp*  You mean it's possible that Trump has lied??  *swoon*

[Bindy Badgy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43985260

 

Quote

 

Ex-New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Mr Trump had reimbursed his lawyer Michael Cohen, who paid Ms Daniels the sum during the 2016 election campaign.

 

The US president had said he did not know about the payment, but recently admitted a "deal" had been struck.

Ms Daniels says the payment was made to keep her quiet over an alleged affair.

 

"They funnelled it through a law firm and the president repaid it," Mr Giuliani, who recently joined Mr Trump's legal team, told Fox News host Sean Hannity.

 

He said that the repayment was made "over a period of several months".

 

Mr Giuliani added that the transaction was legal and did not represent a campaign contribution because it was "not campaign money".

 

8

 

[Cade]

[RobboM]

8 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

*gasp*  You mean it's possible that Trump has lied??  *swoon*

3,002

[Sharpie]

Storrmy Daniels lawyer and I agree, he will not finish his first term as President.  The payment of the $130,000 amount it is claimed by Avanatte(sp) to have been fraudulent in that it was paid in instalments for untruthful reasons.  The Bank  it is alleged investigated those payments and a report exists.

I watched the Mayor with Hannity, according to the Mayor the only person telling the truth is his friend Donald, the President.Everyone else is lying through their teeth.

 

I watched both Carlson and Hannity last night, I had been naughty and felt I should be punished, I will give both the benefit of the doubt that they may be quite nice people off TV, but the characters they adopt on screen are both to me objectionable, horrible people.

 

In a couple of reports yesterday they referred to Muelleras as fishing, it is a good comparison, Trump again to me looks like pictures I have seen of a hooked salmon, it speeds away only to be pulled back, it lays back to look like it is finished then flops around again, just like Trump, after all the sport it is finally pulled in, smacked on the head and it is finished, after a period of glory the poor fish just ends up another failed dead salmon.

 

 

[Sharpie]

Giuliani on Fox this morning again contradicting Trump in his reasons for firing Comey.  He also states quite emphatically that Cohen paid the Stormy Daniels money 16 October 2016 just before the election to avoid anything coming out that could affect Trumps chances.   Quite a strategy, is it to prove that Trump has no idea what he is saying, tells lies, and needs help more than punishment, Giulani it seems is another old has been, living on past glory, I can understand it, know exactly how he feels.

 

On a similar note, a guest on CNN tells how she was a client of Clintons former lawyer, now a Trump appointee.  She says he was an excellent lawyer, but, he does require truth, succint responses, short responses,  all things that Trump receives high praise for being.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

28 minutes ago, bobsharp said:

Giuliani on Fox this morning again contradicting Trump in his reasons for firing Comey.  He also states quite emphatically that Cohen paid the Stormy Daniels money 16 October 2016 just before the election to avoid anything coming out that could affect Trumps chances.   Quite a strategy, is it to prove that Trump has no idea what he is saying, tells lies, and needs help more than punishment, Giulani it seems is another old has been, living on past glory, I can understand it, know exactly how he feels.

 

On a similar note, a guest on CNN tells how she was a client of Clintons former lawyer, now a Trump appointee.  She says he was an excellent lawyer, but, he does require truth, succint responses, short responses,  all things that Trump receives high praise for being.

 

We are being asked to believe that Trump paid hush money to someone claiming to have had an affair with him years before, because he and his team were trying to prevent false accusations harming his campaign and to prevent an attempt of extortion.  What utter total BS.

 

1. If Trump or his team thought that they were potentially going to be blackmailed then why not report it to the police, instead of paying off the would be blackmailer, especially, if, as Trump's team claims, it was false accusations to begin with.

 

2. Trump has allegedly had so many affairs, and several of them have been public knowledge for many years, so I don't think one more would have swayed public opinion against him, especially considering that much more serious allegations had been made against Trump in the form of alleged sexual assaults made by several women, and those allegations hadn't seemingly had any real harming effect upon his chances of becoming President. 

 

Let's face it, Stormy Daniels is just one more woman Trump has allegedly had extra marital sex with, she is just one of many.

 

So why the panic over Stormy Daniels, makes you wonder if she has something else on Trump?

[Justin Z]

3 hours ago, bobsharp said:

Storrmy Daniels lawyer and I agree, he will not finish his first term as President.  The payment of the $130,000 amount it is claimed by Avanatte(sp) to have been fraudulent in that it was paid in instalments for untruthful reasons.  The Bank  it is alleged investigated those payments and a report exists.

 

This is called structuring and I had not heard that it was done in this case--interesting. It's taken very seriously by the feds and doing it alone to avoid the reporting requirements, even if everything else is above board, can get you in serious trouble, as it's punishable by a fine, up to five years' prison, or both.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Justin Z

[Sharpie]

6 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

This is called structuring and I had not heard that it was done in this case--interesting. It's taken very seriously by the feds and doing it alone to avoid the reporting requirements, even if everything else is above board, can get you in serious trouble, as it's punishable by a fine, up to five years' prison, or both.

 

 

 

Avenatti said last night on CNN, that the paymernts were made in weekly  equal amounts just stated as legal fees. One payment and I have difficulty recalling the exact words was something like towards legitimate profit. As I said he went on further to say that the bank in which they were deposited was suspicious of the transactions and did take steps to make enquiries, Avenatti is going to try and get the results of the enquiries. He did say it was viewed as a crime, and if proven would be considered as such and some heavy charges laid, it does also lead into income tax offences, and even the possibility of money laundering and the least serious Federal Election breaches.

 

Fox news of course are putting their slant on all of this, but as one guest said regardless of the potential criminal aspects of this whole affair the fact that the President of the United States on a regular basis blatantly lies and makes false claims to the American public  is probably within itself grounds for an honourable individual to resign.

[Maple Leaf]

52 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

We are being asked to believe that Trump paid hush money to someone claiming to have had an affair with him years before, because he and his team were trying to prevent false accusations harming his campaign and to prevent an attempt of extortion.  What utter total BS.

 

1. If Trump or his team thought that they were potentially going to be blackmailed then why not report it to the police, instead of paying off the would be blackmailer, especially, if, as Trump's team claims, it was false accusations to begin with.

 

2. Trump has allegedly had so many affairs, and several of them have been public knowledge for many years, so I don't think one more would have swayed public opinion against him, especially considering that much more serious allegations had been made against Trump in the form of alleged sexual assaults made by several women, and those allegations hadn't seemingly had any real harming effect upon his chances of becoming President. 

 

Let's face it, Stormy Daniels is just one more woman Trump has allegedly had extra marital sex with, she is just one of many.

 

So why the panic over Stormy Daniels, makes you wonder if she has something else on Trump?

 

Yet the Evangelical Christians in the USA (those are the "family values" fanatics, remember) continue to support this sleaze ball in huge numbers.

[J.T.F.Robertson]

13 minutes ago, bobsharp said:

 

Avenatti said last night on CNN, that the paymernts were made in weekly  equal amounts just stated as legal fees. One payment and I have difficulty recalling the exact words was something like towards legitimate profit. As I said he went on further to say that the bank in which they were deposited was suspicious of the transactions and did take steps to make enquiries, Avenatti is going to try and get the results of the enquiries. He did say it was viewed as a crime, and if proven would be considered as such and some heavy charges laid, it does also lead into income tax offences, and even the possibility of money laundering and the least serious Federal Election breaches.

 

Fox news of course are putting their slant on all of this, but as one guest said regardless of the potential criminal aspects of this whole affair the fact that the President of the United States on a regular basis blatantly lies and makes false claims to the American public  is probably within itself grounds for an honourable individual to resign.

 

Ah well.

 

[Justin Z]

37 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

Yet the Evangelical Christians in the USA (those are the "family values" fanatics, remember) continue to support this sleaze ball in huge numbers.

 

We've always known they're the worst kind of hypocrites. It's why they dumped a good-hearted, ethical Evangelical like Jimmy Carter at the drop of a hat when he wouldn't breach the separation of church and state to push their religious agenda onto all of us who just want to be left alone. And then try to turn it around when people they view as inferior, such as homosexuals, have the gall to seek equal treatment under the law, saying it's others with agendas they're trying to force onto them!

 

Absolute scum and always have been, organised into the nightmare we see today by the likes of Falwell, Robertson and others.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

38 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Yet the Evangelical Christians in the USA (those are the "family values" fanatics, remember) continue to support this sleaze ball in huge numbers.

 

Which makes you wonder, just how committed a lot of them are to their 'faith's' teachings.

 

Or is it only a part-time belief in their faith, to be rolled out as and when it suits.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

This is called structuring and I had not heard that it was done in this case--interesting. It's taken very seriously by the feds and doing it alone to avoid the reporting requirements, even if everything else is above board, can get you in serious trouble, as it's punishable by a fine, up to five years' prison, or both.

 

 

 

Yeh, heard someone mention this on Sky News.

Basically it makes no difference whether it was campaign money or your own, it still has to reported to the relevant authorities, and to not do so, will get you in bother.

 

 

[Sharpie]

Giuliani, just cannot stop putting his foot in his mouth, he was asked about Ivanka and where she stands in all the investigations, he responded to the effect that Jared is in more danger because men are disposable but a nice woman like Ivanka shouldn't be held responsible, this is not a direct quote just my memory of it but really close.  I have watched so many on TV lately that say I can't recall , including the said Giuliani  that I don't feel too bad about not having total memory. So it seems if you are an attractive young lady, and are nice you should not be held responsible for any wrong doing.

 

I suspect Trump on this theory will give Lizzie Borden a full pardon

 

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Barack said:

Billionaire, drops fellow Billionaire, in the shite.

 

Saddened by this latest development.

 

Billionaire drops fellow billionaire in the shite because billionaire knows he's in deep deep shite for leaking rogue FBI intelligence into the public domain days before the election. 

 

This is how tyranny crumbles. When subordinates desperate to save their own skin realise they have less to lose by turning against the Dear Leader.

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

Absolute scum and always have been, organised into the nightmare we see today by the likes of Falwell, Robertson and others.

 

I'm sure both you and Maple Leaf will be more than familiar with this clip, but just in case you (or others) are not... still one of my favourite videos on YouTube over a decade after it aired. The Hitch is immortal.

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Folk have gone back and forth on whether Trump getting removed or resigning is just wishful thinking or is a real possibility. I really have no idea -- the current trajectory seems completely untenable, but then again it always seemed untenable that enough people would vote for this gasbag in the first place.

 

That said, given that Mueller is now angling to talk to the President himself, I suppose we're reaching a bit of a breaking point sometime soon. The following is a staunchly center-left blog/news site, but his information is usually reliable, and he has very informed readers write in. 

 

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/an-mo-for-other-more-serious-crimes

 

Whatever Mueller's going to get, he's likely to have all he'll get his hands on within the next few months. At that point he'll likely drop his report, and either something will happen or it won't.

 

The true measure is the mid-term in November, of course. If the Dems blow that one, we might as well hang it up.

[Maple Leaf]

48 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I'm sure both you and Maple Leaf will be more than familiar with this clip, but just in case you (or others) are not... still one of my favourite videos on YouTube over a decade after it aired. The Hitch is immortal.

 

 

 

Indeed he is.  I've watched countless debates by him on YouTube. His views on Donald Trump would have been worth hearing.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Maple Leaf said:

 

Indeed he is.  I've watched countless debates by him on YouTube. His views on Donald Trump would have been worth hearing.

 

Who was the idiot who suggested the other week that Hitch would've supported Trump? Can't remember off-hand, but it was bloody ludicrous. I think he'd have been staggered at just how much Western political discourse and policy has lost the plot over the last decade. Reason and facts out; emotion and lies in. 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

46 minutes ago, Ugly American said:

Folk have gone back and forth on whether Trump getting removed or resigning is just wishful thinking or is a real possibility. I really have no idea -- the current trajectory seems completely untenable, but then again it always seemed untenable that enough people would vote for this gasbag in the first place.

 

That said, given that Mueller is now angling to talk to the President himself, I suppose we're reaching a bit of a breaking point sometime soon. The following is a staunchly center-left blog/news site, but his information is usually reliable, and he has very informed readers write in. 

 

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/an-mo-for-other-more-serious-crimes

 

Whatever Mueller's going to get, he's likely to have all he'll get his hands on within the next few months. At that point he'll likely drop his report, and either something will happen or it won't.

 

The true measure is the mid-term in November, of course. If the Dems blow that one, we might as well hang it up.

 

Nice piece, and makes sense. There was another one in The New Yorker or Atlantic recently (can't remember which, sorry!) with the writer convinced it would be Trump's "business" dealings that brought him down, rather than anything he's done politically. 

[shaun.lawson]

3 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Nice piece, and makes sense. There was another one in The New Yorker or Atlantic recently (can't remember which, sorry!) with the writer convinced it would be Trump's "business" dealings that brought him down, rather than anything he's done politically. 

 

Someone I really really respect told me that in the days following his election. Basically, that it was all about dirty money.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Who was the idiot who suggested the other week that Hitch would've supported Trump? Can't remember off-hand, but it was bloody ludicrous. I think he'd have been staggered at just how much Western political discourse and policy has lost the plot over the last decade. Reason and facts out; emotion and lies in. 

 

Hitch would have hated Trump but he supported the 2003 invasion of Iraq to his grave, which shows that even someone with as sharp a wit as him could go catastrophically wrong.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Someone I really really respect told me that in the days following his election. Basically, that it was all about dirty money.

 

Yeah, that's what I read. And not just dirty money - dirty money from some proper shady characters. 

[shaun.lawson]

6 minutes ago, Ugly American said:

 

Hitch would have hated Trump but he supported the 2003 invasion of Iraq to his grave, which shows that even someone with as sharp a wit as him could go catastrophically wrong.

 

Indeed he did. I'd like to think he wouldn't have done had he realised we had no plan whatsoever for the aftermath though. 

[Sharpie]

Poor Sarah Huckabee Sanders to defend herself that she is not a liar admits that she was never told about the Trump payment, and only found out last night when she heard it from Giuliani on Fox news. I honestly feel sorry for her and others who have been spokespersons for this man who shows absolutely no what he demands most, loyalty, to anyone else. Also being reported that Giuliani did not discuss with any others on the legal team his intent to make the statements he has.  Also suggested thgat he is preparing Trump for future interviews by revealing truths so that Trump cannot trying to evade doing so and fall into a trap of perjury or lying to a Federal officer.

 

They can guard all they like against Mueller, and Federal and State authorities, but my advice would be make sure you keep a very strong eye on Avennati to me he is the true danger, I don't know the man really, but I would suggest that he is a real street fighter, and will pull dirt from places it was never anticipated. Sometimes the authorities are so anxious to be clean that they restrict their own movement.  I remember old detectives that only lived by their own rules, and they could prevaricate better than any accused. They found that the way to beat a gutter dweller was to take up residence in the same gutter.

[Maple Leaf]

23 minutes ago, Ugly American said:

 

Hitch would have hated Trump but he supported the 2003 invasion of Iraq to his grave, which shows that even someone with as sharp a wit as him could go catastrophically wrong.

 

He supported the Iraq invasion for sure, but I think he would have disagreed with you about him being catastrophically wrong.

 

Hitch used to point to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait as evidence of his evil intent.  He also believed that Saddam would have pursued the development of WMD.  His position was that the invasion was justified to prevent greater evil.  At least, that's how I remember it.  If he were alive today, and could see the mess that has been created, perhaps he would change his views.

[Notts1874]

Cohen's office was wire-tapped by the FBI. Trump is going to get brought down by a pornstar.

 

[Maple Leaf]

8 minutes ago, Barack said:

 

Sarah "Can't take a joke" Sanders, basically chucking him under a bus too, by not denying (WH speak, for admitting) Trump lied to her about Cohen, and the $'s. Thus, making another WH Press Drone, look like a total diddy.

 

I am further saddened by these latest developments

 

 

 

It's really tugging at the old strings, so it is!! 

[shaun.lawson]

43 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

He supported the Iraq invasion for sure, but I think he would have disagreed with you about him being catastrophically wrong.

 

Hitch used to point to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait as evidence of his evil intent.  He also believed that Saddam would have pursued the development of WMD.  His position was that the invasion was justified to prevent greater evil.  At least, that's how I remember it.  If he were alive today, and could see the mess that has been created, perhaps he would change his views.

 

Which is fairly comical, given Saddam only invaded Kuwait because he thought the US had already signalled (via a meeting between him and the US Ambassador) it'd turn a blind eye. It did to him gassing his own people, after all. When Congress wanted to debate Iraq's use of chemical weapons against the Kurds, the State Department actually complained! 

 

I'll always believe Thatcher made the difference in dragging a reluctant Bush 41 into laying down the law. She was belligerent, he was cautious; she was deep in trouble at home, he wasn't (yet). They met in Colorado a day or two after the Iraqi invasion, and she told him "this is no time to go wobbly, George". 

[shaun.lawson]

5 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

It's really tugging at the old strings, so it is!! 

 

A certain someone's been posted missing from this thread (and this forum) for many days now. I wonder why...?  

[Notts1874]

4 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

It's really tugging at the old strings, so it is!! 

I'm crying into my pina colada in Cuba

[Ulysses]

7 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Yet the Evangelical Christians in the USA (those are the "family values" fanatics, remember) continue to support this sleaze ball in huge numbers.

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

4 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

He supported the Iraq invasion for sure, but I think he would have disagreed with you about him being catastrophically wrong.

 

Hitch used to point to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait as evidence of his evil intent.  He also believed that Saddam would have pursued the development of WMD.  His position was that the invasion was justified to prevent greater evil.  At least, that's how I remember it.  If he were alive today, and could see the mess that has been created, perhaps he would change his views.

 

That's not a hypothetical, the argument was put to him multiple times after the whole thing fell apart at the seams, and he dug in his heels. So of course he'd disagree with me.

 

I think Hitch (and all Iraq war supporters) were tragically, categorically wrong and that the aftermath of the invasion stand as irrefutable evidence*, but Hitch liked nothing more than a lost cause and refused to back down. I think this isn't a testament to his reasonableness or the strength of his argument, but rather to his personal obduracy and his own blind spots.

 

* When the case against the war was so strong, persuasive, and unified that parody newspaper The Onion was able to sum it up the case for and against it so succinctly in a few short paragraphs in 2003 before it started. And for that matter, the case against describing EXACTLY what has happened for the last 15 years. Like, we were exactly, catastrophically right on this one, and yet people like Hitch were too blinded by their own ideologies and hatreds to see it. https://www.theonion.com/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-region-and-1819594296

[JackLadd]

How anybody can trust a word that comes out of Trump's mouth or his WH is an Earth mystery.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

This headline....

 

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Ugly American

[milky_26]

14 hours ago, Notts1874 said:

Cohen's office was wire-tapped by the FBI. Trump is going to get brought down by a pornstar.

 

It is normally the pornstarvwho goes down

13 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

It's really tugging at the old strings, so it is!! 

And again normally what a pornstar does

[XB52]

11 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

That's not a hypothetical, the argument was put to him multiple times after the whole thing fell apart at the seams, and he dug in his heels. So of course he'd disagree with me.

 

I think Hitch (and all Iraq war supporters) were tragically, categorically wrong and that the aftermath of the invasion stand as irrefutable evidence*, but Hitch liked nothing more than a lost cause and refused to back down. I think this isn't a testament to his reasonableness or the strength of his argument, but rather to his personal obduracy and his own blind spots.

 

* When the case against the war was so strong, persuasive, and unified that parody newspaper The Onion was able to sum it up the case for and against it so succinctly in a few short paragraphs in 2003 before it started. And for that matter, the case against describing EXACTLY what has happened for the last 15 years. Like, we were exactly, catastrophically right on this one, and yet people like Hitch were too blinded by their own ideologies and hatreds to see it. https://www.theonion.com/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-region-and-1819594296

although I agree that the Iraq war was a disaster, for certain parties the headline in your link would be seen as a roaring success. The very last thing they want is a stable middle east