Hybrid Pitch

[graygo]

13 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

We let an orchestra on the pitch just before we were due to play. That tells you everything.

 

The orchestra thing is not the direct reason for the state of the pitch, it may have caused it indirectly but the fact is that we could probably have a concert on the pitch next week and no lasting damage would be done to the pitch. (if it was perfect now)

 

The club did ask the manufacturers if it would be ok and were told that it would.

 

The speculation is that having the concert meant that we did not do the proper maintenance on the pitch.

[MarkDevriesScores4]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

The only positive is that the problem ( if it is the problem ) should be an easy fix in the summer...maybe. 

I seriously hope so but even still, that’s a whole year of owning a barely useable pitch following a big investment on the pitch. Not really acceptable at a professional football club.

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

The only positive is that the problem ( if it is the problem ) should be an easy fix in the summer...maybe. 

 

It's a pretty big positive tbf. If we can't get it back to how it was last season at minimal cost and effort then happy days. It was like a carpet and I'm sure we'll have learned lessons from it.

[graygo]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It's a pretty big positive tbf. If we can't get it back to how it was last season at minimal cost and effort then happy days. It was like a carpet and I'm sure we'll have learned lessons from it.

 

If the problem is as Cruikshank says then it is an easy fix in the summer, the fibres should be fine just now it's the grass that's the issue.

Not sure about the minimal cost thing though as Wolves say it is a six figure sum to take the top surface off and replace.

Edited January 14 by graygo

[Boris5115]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

The only positive is that the problem ( if it is the problem ) should be an easy fix in the summer...maybe. 

Hearts and easy fix in the same sentence now that's encouraging. Good times ahead hopefully. 

[davemclaren]

Just now, Boris5115 said:

Hearts and easy fix in the same sentence now that's encouraging. Good times ahead hopefully. 

😄

[davemclaren]

6 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

The orchestra thing is not the direct reason for the state of the pitch, it may have caused it indirectly but the fact is that we could probably have a concert on the pitch next week and no lasting damage would be done to the pitch. (if it was perfect now)

 

The club did ask the manufacturers if it would be ok and were told that it would.

 

The speculation is that having the concert meant that we did not do the proper maintenance on the pitch.

I still don’t get why it couldn’t be done because of the concert. Wouldn’t it normally been done prior to the first home match, which was prior to the concert? 🤷🏼‍♂️

[graygo]

Just now, davemclaren said:

I still don’t get why it couldn’t be done because of the concert. Wouldn’t it normally been done prior to the first home match, which was prior to the concert? 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

Good point, no idea then.

 

Maybe Budge didn't fancy putting it on top of a brand new surface then took a chance that the pitch would survive without being resurfaced and it's backfired in her puss.

[Taffin]

16 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

If the problem is as Cruikshank says then it is an easy fix in the summer, the fibres should be fine just now it's the grass that's the issue.

Not sure about the minimal cost thing though as Wolves say it is a six figure sum to take the top surface off and replace.

 

It's money we'd be spending anyway as going by the Wolves article it should be done every year anyway. Minimal as in, not more than we should have been expecting.

[graygo]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It's money we'd be spending anyway as going by the Wolves article it should be done every year anyway. Minimal as in, not more than we should have been expecting.

 

True.

[Cruickshank for Scotland]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

That’s what is being said in this thread. 

Yes mis read his post Dave

[Cruickshank for Scotland]

On 13/01/2020 at 18:26, tightrope said:

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/wolverhampton-wanderers-fc/2017/07/24/getting-the-needle-to-be-pitch-perfect-at-wolves/

Looks like there is maintenance skimming at season end.

Some seem to think Wolves spend a six figure sum on maintaining their hybrid pitch every year. That’s not what the article said - they spent a one off six figure sum back in 2010 mainly on the subsoil and drainage for their traditional pitch.

Their hybrid pitch was installed in 2017.

[Taffin]

53 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Some seem to think Wolves spend a six figure sum on maintaining their hybrid pitch every year. That’s not what the article said - they spent a one off six figure sum back in 2010 mainly on the subsoil and drainage for their traditional pitch.

Their hybrid pitch was installed in 2017.

 

Yeh, I've read the article wrong. Apologies.

[Jambof3tornado]

2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

The only positive is that the problem ( if it is the problem ) should be an easy fix in the summer...maybe. 

Only an easy fix if we do things properly this time.

[stan]

Regarding the mosaic, it looks more like something leeching through from behind. I'd have hoped the club sought advice on conservation from HIstoric Environment Scotland or the national museum to get this right. If not, I'd rather they approached them now than just take well meaning, but possibly not best advice from tilers (honestly no offence intended).

 

As for the pitch...I'm thinking that's going to be 50% grass free by end of Feb. It's certainly getting worse.

 

[Cruickshank for Scotland]

1 hour ago, Taffin said:

 

Yeh, I've read the article wrong. Apologies.

An easy mistake 👍

[Cruickshank for Scotland]

3 hours ago, graygo said:

 

If the problem is as Cruikshank says then it is an easy fix in the summer, the fibres should be fine just now it's the grass that's the issue.

Not sure about the minimal cost thing though as Wolves say it is a six figure sum to take the top surface off and replace.

That’s not what they said in the article published on here Grayco.

Scarifying the surface and re-seeding is not a six figure cost.

[Cruickshank for Scotland]

4 hours ago, davemclaren said:

The only positive is that the problem ( if it is the problem ) should be an easy fix in the summer...maybe. 

So we are left with a shit pitch this season to go with our shit team - looks like Mrs Budge has to take the rap for both.

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

So we are left with a shit pitch this season to go with our shit team - looks like Mrs Budge has to take the rap for both.

If the circumstances are as described on  this thread then yes. 

[kila]

Something badly went wrong after the women's cup final and in between the Livingston and St Johnstone games. Here's some screen caps from highlights of the games of roughly the same area:

 

 

 

 

Sun 24th Nov - Women's Cup Final

 

 

 

 

Wed 4th Dec - Hearts v Livingston

 

 

 

Sat 14th Dec - Hearts v St Johnstone

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15 by kila

[Pasquale for King]

21 minutes ago, kila said:

Something badly went wrong after the women's cup final and in between the Livingston and St Johnstone games. Here's some screen caps from highlights of the games of roughly the same area:

 

 

 

 

Sun 24th Nov - Women's Cup Final

 

 

 

 

Wed 4th Dec - Hearts v Livingston

 

 

 

Sat 14th Dec - Hearts v St Johnstone

 

 

 

 

 

The weather obviously got worse but that’s quite a difference, whatever is affecting it has got worse. I was hoping a few days over 10 degrees would’ve helped, I suppose we will see on Saturday.

[Coburg Hearts]

7 hours ago, davemclaren said:

I still don’t get why it couldn’t be done because of the concert. Wouldn’t it normally been done prior to the first home match, which was prior to the concert? 🤷🏼‍♂️

This is where I'm confused. (doesn't take much, tbf)

[johnking123]

6 hours ago, kila said:

Something badly went wrong after the women's cup final and in between the Livingston and St Johnstone games. Here's some screen caps from highlights of the games of roughly the same area:

 

 

 

 

Sun 24th Nov - Women's Cup Final

 

 

 

 

Wed 4th Dec - Hearts v Livingston

 

 

 

Sat 14th Dec - Hearts v St Johnstone

 

 

 

 

 

New there was something wrong with women's football. Look what they did to the pitch!

[johnking123]

I'm still placing my money on the grounds man leaving the under soil heating on and burning the roots.

[kila]

1 hour ago, johnking123 said:

I'm still placing my money on the grounds man leaving the under soil heating on and burning the roots.

The last pic presumably shows the underground heating pipes looping round by the corner flag?

[SUTOL]

1 hour ago, johnking123 said:

I'm still placing my money on the grounds man leaving the under soil heating on and burning the roots.

 

I'd be surprised if there was just a switch that the groundsman turned on or off to operate the undersoil heating. 

Surely it would be part of the pitch monitoring system and would come on automatically as required. 

 

Not to say there couldn't be a fault in that system and it has been on when it should be off!

[Boab]

6 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

The weather obviously got worse but that’s quite a difference, whatever is affecting it has got worse. I was hoping a few days over 10 degrees would’ve helped, I suppose we will see on Saturday.

I’ll wager this thread will only be second to the match thread come Saturday.

[RobboM]

6 hours ago, Coburg Hearts said:

This is where I'm confused. (doesn't take much, tbf)

Same!

I'm remaining sceptical on the maintenance angle.

The "skimming" seems to be 6-7mm effectively scarifying the top layer. Across a football pitch of 100m * 64m you are only talking 45 m3. This equates to about 30 tons. That's very small beer.

Compared that to the figures that went into the pitch.

 

The new Tynecastle Park pitch in numbers:

17,000,000 hybrid insertions
40,000 km of yarn
27 km of undersoil heating pipes
1500 tonnes of gravel
26 irrigation sprinklers
4600 tonnes of sand

Looking at the video of the Toro top surface machine it's a couple of hours to do a football pitch, replacing with new top dressing would be about the same. There is 2 months to do this from the end of the season to the start of the next and another month till the concert.

Another question would be why would a hybrid top surface so desperately need to be deep scarified and replaced from a newly seeded pitch just 10 months old? If it is to remove surface thatch I'm sceptical too that such an amount of thatch could develop in such a short time, the pitch is regularly mowed, brushed, loose material removed. Why would missing out this maintenance make the pitch deteriorate so precipitously at the end of November?

I certanly don't have answers just questions. I'm interested as an old boy keeping his lawn under control at home, past involvement in a cricket club which meant mowing, scarifying, tining, fertilizing and any other mainternance, and involvement in club football and trying to solve pitch drainage. In all these amateur cases the grass keeps on growing and growing! 😁

Edited January 15 by RobboM

[sac]

6 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Same!

I'm remaining sceptical on the maintenance angle.

The "skimming" seems to be 6-7mm effectively scarifying the top layer. Across a football pitch of 100m * 64m you are only talking 45 m3. This equates to about 30 tons. That's very small beer.

Compared that to the figures that went into the pitch.

 

The new Tynecastle Park pitch in numbers:

17,000,000 hybrid insertions
40,000 km of yarn
27 km of undersoil heating pipes
1500 tonnes of gravel
26 irrigation sprinklers
4600 tonnes of sand

Looking at the video of the Toro top surface machine it's a couple of hours to do a football pitch, replacing with new top dressing would be about the same. There is 2 months to do this from the end of the season to the start of the next and another month till the concert.

Another question would be why would a hybrid top surface so desperately need to be deep scarified and replaced from a newly seeded pitch just 10 months old? If it is to remove surface thatch I'm sceptical too that such an amount of thatch could develop in such a short time, the pitch is regularly mowed, brushed, loose material removed. Why would missing out this maintenance make the pitch deteriorate so precipitously at the end of November?

I certanly don't have answers just questions. I'm interested as an old boy keeping his lawn under control at home, past involvement in a cricket club which meant mowing, scarifying, tining, fertilizing and any other mainternance, and involvement in club football and trying to solve pitch drainage. In all these amateur cases the grass keeps on growing and growing! 😁

Would have thought year two or year three before carrying out such a procedure to allow the new surface to establish itself.

[The Treasurer]

26 minutes ago, kila said:

The last pic presumably shows the underground heating pipes looping round by the corner flag?

Wrong.

It's where the team did some of their pre-match warm up routine.

[RobboM]

1 minute ago, sac said:

Would have thought year two or year three before carrying out such a procedure to allow the new surface to establish itself.

Let's be honest. We're all just speculating, and uninformed speculation at that. It just seems to me more likely that something happened in Oct/Nov causing the problem rather than something NOT happening in May causing the problem 6 months later.

[heartsfc_fan]

8 hours ago, kila said:

Something badly went wrong after the women's cup final and in between the Livingston and St Johnstone games. Here's some screen caps from highlights of the games of roughly the same area:

 

 

 

 

Sun 24th Nov - Women's Cup Final

 

 

 

 

Wed 4th Dec - Hearts v Livingston

 

 

 

Sat 14th Dec - Hearts v St Johnstone

 

 

 

 

 

That's a startling difference!

😣

[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, kila said:

The last pic presumably shows the underground heating pipes looping round by the corner flag?

Thats the area they did their short sprints in the warm up

Edited January 15 by Clark Griswold

[BelgeJambo]

17 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Thats the area they did their short sprints in the warm up

Concur - it was worse than that after the warm up against Hibs

[Coburg Hearts]

3 hours ago, RobboM said:

Same!

I'm remaining sceptical on the maintenance angle.

The "skimming" seems to be 6-7mm effectively scarifying the top layer. Across a football pitch of 100m * 64m you are only talking 45 m3. This equates to about 30 tons. That's very small beer.

Compared that to the figures that went into the pitch.

 

The new Tynecastle Park pitch in numbers:

17,000,000 hybrid insertions
40,000 km of yarn
27 km of undersoil heating pipes
1500 tonnes of gravel
26 irrigation sprinklers
4600 tonnes of sand

Looking at the video of the Toro top surface machine it's a couple of hours to do a football pitch, replacing with new top dressing would be about the same. There is 2 months to do this from the end of the season to the start of the next and another month till the concert.

Another question would be why would a hybrid top surface so desperately need to be deep scarified and replaced from a newly seeded pitch just 10 months old? If it is to remove surface thatch I'm sceptical too that such an amount of thatch could develop in such a short time, the pitch is regularly mowed, brushed, loose material removed. Why would missing out this maintenance make the pitch deteriorate so precipitously at the end of November?

I certanly don't have answers just questions. I'm interested as an old boy keeping his lawn under control at home, past involvement in a cricket club which meant mowing, scarifying, tining, fertilizing and any other mainternance, and involvement in club football and trying to solve pitch drainage. In all these amateur cases the grass keeps on growing and growing! 😁

I'm hoping it doesn't hamper the way Danny wants the team to play.

It seems there are more questions than answers.......

........

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, RobboM said:

Same!

I'm remaining sceptical on the maintenance angle.

The "skimming" seems to be 6-7mm effectively scarifying the top layer. Across a football pitch of 100m * 64m you are only talking 45 m3. This equates to about 30 tons. That's very small beer.

Compared that to the figures that went into the pitch.

 

The new Tynecastle Park pitch in numbers:

17,000,000 hybrid insertions
40,000 km of yarn
27 km of undersoil heating pipes
1500 tonnes of gravel
26 irrigation sprinklers
4600 tonnes of sand

Looking at the video of the Toro top surface machine it's a couple of hours to do a football pitch, replacing with new top dressing would be about the same. There is 2 months to do this from the end of the season to the start of the next and another month till the concert.

Another question would be why would a hybrid top surface so desperately need to be deep scarified and replaced from a newly seeded pitch just 10 months old? If it is to remove surface thatch I'm sceptical too that such an amount of thatch could develop in such a short time, the pitch is regularly mowed, brushed, loose material removed. Why would missing out this maintenance make the pitch deteriorate so precipitously at the end of November?

I certanly don't have answers just questions. I'm interested as an old boy keeping his lawn under control at home, past involvement in a cricket club which meant mowing, scarifying, tining, fertilizing and any other mainternance, and involvement in club football and trying to solve pitch drainage. In all these amateur cases the grass keeps on growing and growing! 😁

For what it’s worth I used to be a member at Prestonfield golf club and theu would hollow tine the greens in the winter every year, to allow the grass room to grow. Not sure how that would work with a hybrid pitch though, some sort of that surely needs done every year if it’s 95% grass though?

[kila]

14 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

For what it’s worth I used to be a member at Prestonfield golf club and theu would hollow tine the greens in the winter every year, to allow the grass room to grow. Not sure how that would work with a hybrid pitch though, some sort of that surely needs done every year if it’s 95% grass though?

 

I think they do that to aid drainage in winter and to stop a fungus from forming underneath the green surface, rather than to aid grass growth. There's been a couple of winter greens this year and like last year they are using the two practise par 3's and taken the 2nd and 13th out of action for a rest. The practise par 3 greens are remarkably firm and durable compared to the main greens in the winter though!

 

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, kila said:

 

I think they do that to aid drainage in winter and to stop a fungus from forming underneath the green surface, rather than to aid grass growth. There's been a couple of winter greens this year and like last year they are using the two practise par 3's and taken the 2nd and 13th out of action for a rest. The practise par 3 greens are remarkably firm and durable compared to the main greens in the winter though!

 

Good stuff, I should’ve mentioned the fertiliser they put on a couple of times a year that the ladybirds love. They seed it too so new grass grows. Thanks for the Info, hope the club is doing well. 
https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/features/the-game/what-is-hollow-tining-for-67993

Edited January 15 by Pasquale for King

[andydog]

i watched some of the women's cup final and remember thinking the pitch looked very ropey when they had close up camera shots. It looked fine from the main camera but brutal up close. The problem started before that game.

[Poseidon]

8 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

Wrong.

It's where the team did some of their pre-match warm up routine.

I sit down that way and there's definitely noticeable looped lines down there and it's not always the exact spot where the warm ups are done. The warm ups won't help of course but it doesn't feel like it's solely down to them. I don't think the grass has been burnt though, I don't really know what it is.

[kila]

2 hours ago, andydog said:

i watched some of the women's cup final and remember thinking the pitch looked very ropey when they had close up camera shots. It looked fine from the main camera but brutal up close. The problem started before that game.

 

A busy November where it got used four times, but presumably trained on too. However it is a hybrid, it can handle that. There was a similar usage over the same period last year and it was fine the entire season. I posted this earlier in the thread where I went back further before the women's cup final:

 

 

 

On 15/12/2019 at 17:51, kila said:

The run of games using the pitch:

 

Sat 5th Oct - Hearts v Kilmarnock

Thu 10th Oct - Scotland U21s

Sun 20th Oct - Hearts v Rangers

Sat 9th Nov - Hearts v St Mirren

Fri 15th Nov - Scotland U21s

Sun 17th Nov - Hearts Women

Sun 24th Nov - Women's Cup Final

Wed 4th Dec - Hearts v Livingston

Sat 14th Dec - Hearts v St Johnstone

 

 

 

Sat 5th Oct:

 

 

 

 

 

Thurs 10th Oct:

 

 

 

 

20th Oct:

 

 

 

 

9th Nov:

 

 

 

 

15th Nov:

 

 

[Hungry hippo]

3 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

I sit down that way and there's definitely noticeable looped lines down there and it's not always the exact spot where the warm ups are done. The warm ups won't help of course but it doesn't feel like it's solely down to them. I don't think the grass has been burnt though, I don't really know what it is.

 

That mark is definitely due to the warm-ups. I watched them doing the  sprints exactly there.

[jambali]

10 hours ago, kila said:

The last pic presumably shows the underground heating pipes looping round by the corner flag?

Thats running marks

 

[Pans Jambo]

10 hours ago, RobboM said:

Same!

I'm remaining sceptical on the maintenance angle.

The "skimming" seems to be 6-7mm effectively scarifying the top layer. Across a football pitch of 100m * 64m you are only talking 45 m3. This equates to about 30 tons. That's very small beer.

Compared that to the figures that went into the pitch.

 

The new Tynecastle Park pitch in numbers:

17,000,000 hybrid insertions
40,000 km of yarn
27 km of undersoil heating pipes
1500 tonnes of gravel
26 irrigation sprinklers
4600 tonnes of sand

Looking at the video of the Toro top surface machine it's a couple of hours to do a football pitch, replacing with new top dressing would be about the same. There is 2 months to do this from the end of the season to the start of the next and another month till the concert.

Another question would be why would a hybrid top surface so desperately need to be deep scarified and replaced from a newly seeded pitch just 10 months old? If it is to remove surface thatch I'm sceptical too that such an amount of thatch could develop in such a short time, the pitch is regularly mowed, brushed, loose material removed. Why would missing out this maintenance make the pitch deteriorate so precipitously at the end of November?

I certanly don't have answers just questions. I'm interested as an old boy keeping his lawn under control at home, past involvement in a cricket club which meant mowing, scarifying, tining, fertilizing and any other mainternance, and involvement in club football and trying to solve pitch drainage. In all these amateur cases the grass keeps on growing and growing! 😁

Forty Thousand KM’s of yarn? 
Almost 25,000 miles? 
Enough to wrap round the planets equator?

Really?

[farin]

18 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Forty Thousand KM’s of yarn? 
Almost 25,000 miles? 
Enough to wrap round the planets equator?

Really?

 

When you see the yarn machine that was used it’s not surprising tbh. 

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, farin said:

 

When you see the yarn machine that was used it’s not surprising tbh. 

 

 

Could well be correct. 25,000 miles (40,000 KM’s) just seems a bit OTT. 
40,000 Mtrs seems more likely but WTF do I know about hybrid pitches 🤷‍♂️

[RobboM]

17 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Forty Thousand KM’s of yarn? 
Almost 25,000 miles? 
Enough to wrap round the planets equator?

Really?

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/pitch-perfect-1
Lifted from the Hearts website article on the pitch

I think the 17m insertions is the biggie but (I think!) it works out every 4cm2 at about 23 cm each, the news article says 18cm below and 2 cm above so it roughly adds up.
 

[farin]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Could well be correct. 25,000 miles (40,000 KM’s) just seems a bit OTT. 
40,000 Mtrs seems more likely but WTF do I know about hybrid pitches 🤷‍♂️

 

You know as much as 99% of us on here. 😄 

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, RobboM said:

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/pitch-perfect-1
Lifted from the Hearts website article on the pitch

I think the 17m insertions is the biggie but (I think!) it works out every 4cm2 at about 23 cm each, the news article says 18cm below and 2 cm above so it roughly adds up.
 

Well I’m impressed by that. 
 

Now WTF happened to it???

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, farin said:

 

You know as much as 99% of us on here. 😄