Another Mass Shooting in America

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Most previous mass shootings have not been racially motivated.

Schoolchildren taking revenge on bullies, disgruntled workers taking revenge on workmates and so on.

The most recent ones are motivated by far-right hatred of people from other faiths or racial backgrounds or sexuality.

That's the difference.

And it's a big one.

 

Simply not true. Almost every mass shooting this year has had no obvious racial motivation but fall into your first class. 

And racially motivated mass killings are not a new phenomenon but have happened pretty much forever in the US

 

 

[John Findlay]

Dumb nation full of dumb people.

[Sharpie]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Simply not true. Almost every mass shooting this year has had no obvious racial motivation but fall into your first class. 

And racially motivated mass killings are not a new phenomenon but have happened pretty much forever in the US

 

 

True, and even in my lifetime racial killings in th U.S. were reported in the old News and Dispatch, although not to the volume in which people are being killed now. As a wee any gum chum boy in the war years in Princes Street outside the U.S. club remember the slight controversy when we accepted so thankfully a candy or gum from a black soldier, the only good thing was we got abetter one from the white guys to prove I suppose they had better. Race in America has always been a fixture in my life , even in the movies when the rac es were stereotyped. So it is only to be expected if leading figures of today resume that old trend nothing good can come from it.

[Francis Albert]

51 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

The fascism-supporting right nationalist media in the U.S. is busy helping fascist politicians blame it on video games instead of the racist nativism they spew.

 

Meanwhile, JESUS ****ING CHRIST:

'This is not happening again!' 3 who survived Gilroy Garlic Festival shooting escaped Las Vegas in 2017

 

Can you even ****ing imagine?

 

 

And just to add to the statistics which may have some relevance 4 out of 10 of the biggest mass killings in "modern" times have been in Texas. So to understand the phenomenon maybe understanding the reason why this one state with less than 10% of the US population has this record might be one part of the  process.

Probably more revealing than throwing around the words "fascist" and "fascism" indiscriminately.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

27 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Dumb nation full of dumb people.

I've spent quite a lot of time in the States and that simply isn't true. The culture has certainly been dumbing down of late but that is true of here and most "advanced" countries. For the most part in my experience most Americans (even Trump supporters) are among the friendliest and most decent in the world. Which makes their unwillingness to address the issue of guns and mass murder all the more puzzling.

[peter_hmfc]

49 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Dumb nation full of dumb people.

 

Dumb is a massively compliment, so many of them are just downright deluded at best.

[J.T.F.Robertson]

1 hour ago, bobsharp said:

Often the 2nd Amendment is quoted, i.e. that is the right to bear arms. I am not sure the relevance of it in 2019, my understanding was in the days when the American soldiers of the day were according to todays President retaking airports and things. The legislation was introduced in these days because basically they had a civilian army, a small population in a relatively small area and always under threat of invasion by the British. It made sense to allow them to have weapons close at hand. The weapons of course were old missile down the barrel light a fuse and repeat for  next shot. I t would be difficult to think that they would have had any conception that the Country was going to be populated by mega millions, that weapons could fire many rounds without reload, and that immigrants which they all were or at least the stock of would be seen as the invaders and shot with no warning or declaration of war.

 

Exactly, Bob, the whole "2nd" is a crock of simplistic, outdated nonsense.

Fetch me my blunderbuss.

 

[Cade]

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

 

Are you in a well regulated militia? 

No?

Then you have no right to bear arms.

 

The 2nd Amendment does not sanction the general arming of the populace, but governs local paramilitary militia groups, who are regulated by the state.

[Sawdust Caesar]

4 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Nor can I.  By and large, Americans support their Second Amendment rights.  That means that any attempt to implement meaningful gun control laws faces an uphill battle.

 

More surprising is the number of Americans who believe that the answer to mass shootings is more guns. This is how their reasoning goes:

 

"If everyone in Walmart yesterday had been carrying a gun, the shooter would not have been stupid enough to even attempt what he did.  Even if only half the people had been carrying a gun, the shooter would have been taken out quickly, thus saving lives."

 

I've heard that conversation twice on my visits to the USA, and the other people in the room nodded in agreement.

 

 

Someone on CNN made the point about there being 4 mass shootings in Texas which is a state with laws that allow permits for concealed weapons and open carry permits. He said by the law of averages there will be have been some people who were armed in the places where the shootings happened and it didn't save them or stop the mass killings from happening.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 minutes ago, Cade said:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

 

Are you in a well regulated militia? 

No?

Then you have no right to bear arms.

 

The 2nd Amendment does not sanction the general arming of the populace, but governs local paramilitary militia groups, who are regulated by the state.

 

The NRA and the gun lobby ignore the first part and only quote the right of the people part.

 

It wouldn't shock nor surprise me if many Americans couldn't quote the 2nd Amendment in full, they'd only be able to quote the right to bear arms bit.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 minutes ago, Sawdust Caesar said:

Someone on CNN made the point about there being 4 mass shootings in Texas which is a state with laws that allow permits for concealed weapons and open carry permits. He said by the law of averages there will be have been some people who were armed in the places where the shootings happened and it didn't save them or stop the mass killings from happening.

 

Wasn't there a high school shooting, where the security guard, the 'good guy with a gun' was the first to get shot, which meant the 'bad guy with a gun' now had 2 guns to play with.

[Justin Z]

13 minutes ago, Cade said:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

 

Are you in a well regulated militia? 

No?

Then you have no right to bear arms.

 

The 2nd Amendment does not sanction the general arming of the populace, but governs local paramilitary militia groups, who are regulated by the state.

 

Unfortunately, "Textualist Originalist"--his own words to describe himself, Justice Antonin Scalia, disagreed, and he ignored the entire first clause of that amendment in order to make the amendment say what he wanted to: That anyone has the right to carry a firearm.

 

D.C. v Heller

 

This ***** spent his entire career on the Supreme Court bench demeaning the office, screaming and crying and carrying on about judicial activism, and pretending he could divine the original intent of laws written over two centuries ago.

 

He then completely ignored the first thirteen words of that amendment in the most baldly political judicial move you will ever seen.

 

I can't think of a jurist beyond Clarence Thomas I have ever despised more.

[Sawdust Caesar]

6 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Wasn't there a high school shooting, where the security guard, the 'good guy with a gun' was the first to get shot, which meant the 'bad guy with a gun' now had 2 guns to play with.

Does sound familiar but don't know for sure. There was college shooting where an ex military man (not the shooter) who was armed but chose to hide with the rest of the people in a room rather than drawing his weapon and go looking for the gunman. His reason was if the police responders saw him before they saw the actual gunman he would likely get shot, plus the gunman may kill more people or get away because the police may wrongly think they have the right man.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 minutes ago, Sawdust Caesar said:

Does sound familiar but don't know for sure. There was college shooting where an ex military man (not the shooter) who was armed but chose to hide with the rest of the people in a room rather than drawing his weapon and go looking for the gunman. His reason was if the police responders saw him before they saw the actual gunman he would likely get shot, plus the gunman may kill more people or get away because the police may wrongly think they have the right man.

 

Similar to this guy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48521988

 

[Sharpie]

17 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Wasn't there a high school shooting, where the security guard, the 'good guy with a gun' was the first to get shot, which meant the 'bad guy with a gun' now had 2 guns to play with.

 

I possibly conveniently do not remember that one but will never forget the one where the armed cop paid and trained to protect the kids hid round a corner while they were being slaughtererd. He is now facing numerous charges which could lead to life imprisonment. He was a craven coward, and even his lawyer admitted that in a statement saying it is not his cowardice that is on trial but his breach of the rules. Fortunately in a number of recent shootings police have had prompt responses and have proceeded directly to the sound of the gunfire. As seems to be the case in the most recent two cases. Some will be disappointed that the El Paso shooter was not killed on site, but I think he could now possibly face execution, it must be torture having to wait for it.

[Sow Easy]

 

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

I've spent quite a lot of time in the States and that simply isn't true. The culture has certainly been dumbing down of late but that is true of here and most "advanced" countries. For the most part in my experience most Americans (even Trump supporters) are among the friendliest and most decent in the world. Which makes their unwillingness to address the issue of guns and mass murder all the more puzzling.

Because they're dumb. Anyone can be friendly. Art doesn't imitate life. Life imitate's art. I speak as one who has relatives in Milwaukee, New Jersey, Baltimore and Maryland.

[Sawdust Caesar]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Similar to this guy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48521988

 

Not really. The guy was a pupil at the college who happened to be armed. He believes that he could have made things worse by going after the gunman, even though he was trained in armed combat. I think that was his response to the folks saying if good guys were armed then the bad guy wouldn't have killed so many. I'm sure he said that too many folks think it is like in the movies, they don't realise you have to cope with the rush of adrenaline, which can make your hands shake, and tunnel vision. I think he did say he would  have only have used his gun if the gunman at entered the room he was in.       

[AlphonseCapone]

Sounds horrible, but it's hard to care anymore. 

[indianajones]

The irony of the El Paso guy releasing a manifesto titled 'the Hispanic invasion of Texas' won't be seen by many in America. 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by indianajones

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Because they're dumb. Anyone can be friendly. Art doesn't imitate life. Life imitate's art. I speak as one who has relatives in Milwaukee, New Jersey, Baltimore and Maryland.

Sorry but don't really get the art doesn't imitate life and life imitates art thing.

[Francis Albert]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

 

Are you in a well regulated militia? 

No?

Then you have no right to bear arms.

 

The 2nd Amendment does not sanction the general arming of the populace, but governs local paramilitary militia groups, who are regulated by the state.

It is amazing that a simple statement the meaning of which is obvious to anyone who can understand basic English should be so widely misunderstood. Well of course  not so much misunderstood but less surprisingly willfully distorted even by Supreme Court judges.

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

47 minutes ago, indianajones said:

The irony of the El Paso guy releasing a manifesto titled 'the Hispanic invasion of Texas' won't be seen by many in America. 

 

 

I think most of the large hispanic population of the USA might just get it.

 

 

 

 

 

[JackLadd]

He's not the first Maga terrorist and won't be the last.  

[Unknown user]

I just read the manifesto, he's at pains to point out it's nothing to do with Trump, but says the media will probably try to link it to him because the "media is infamous for fake news"

 

It's an utterly depressing situation, there are thousands of angry morons with guns in America. Where does it stop?

[Sharpie]

There were reports this afternoon that the Dayton shooter was removed from school as an eighteen year old for death threats and a list he had prepared of people that had to die. He was some time later,weeks or months returned to school and became a pretty good student. Just like the Parkland killer though serious indications of mental problems, the question will be how much was done and what was his mental condition.

 

No doubt as seems to be the case with Republicans interviewed on the fake news channels that mental health will be maintained as the root cause of both actions and nothing to do with white supremacy.

 

The El Paso shooter has been charged by the State with a capital offencee, and there is a death penalty in Texas. If convicted the accused will have to sit in a cell for many years waiting and anticipating the walk down to that big supecharged chair, o whatever they do now.

Edited August 5, 2019 by bobsharp

[Cade]

Black shooter = criminal act

Brown shooter = Terrorism

White shooter = mental health issues

 

That's the formula.

[Sharpie]

Always has been, but this close to an election and during campaign season the formula will change at least for tha period.

[SpruceBringsteen]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

It's an utterly depressing situation, there are thousands of angry morons with guns in America. Where does it stop?

 

It won't. You deprive the population of education so they're idiots, then you deprive them of basic rights and blame someone else.

 

"But trust us. Give us your vote and money. We'll fix it for you. Us billionaires have nothing but altruism for you dipshits that couldn't fasten your own shoes without velcro".

 

I mean, they are pretty much that brazen now. What can you do? I've as much sympathy for the populace here as I do for Scotland's. *shrug*

[ri Alban]

10 hours ago, Cade said:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

 

Are you in a well regulated militia? 

No?

Then you have no right to bear arms.

 

The 2nd Amendment does not sanction the general arming of the populace, but governs local paramilitary militia groups, who are regulated by the state.

When was the last time these amendments were amended?

Edited August 5, 2019 by ri Alban

[Maple Leaf]

18 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

When was the last time these amendments were amended?

 

There are 27 amendments to the US Constitution. The last one was ratified in 1971.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[ri Alban]

9 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

There are 27 amendments to the US Constitution. The last one was ratified in 1971.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution

👍

[RobboM]

There's an excellent series of Podcasts on the Amendments to the American Constitution called "More Perfect" which goes through the evolution and implementation of all the Amendments.

The one on the 2nd amendment is a true education. Here's the precis, well worth a listen for at least some explanation. It is 1:08 so a lot to it.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/gun-show-reprise

September 19, 2018

The Gun Show Reprise

Last year in the wake of the attack in Las Vegas, reporter Sean Rameswaram took a deep dive into America's twisty, thorny, seemingly irreconcilable relationship with guns. It's a story about the Second Amendment, the Black Panthers, the NRA, and a guy named Dick Heller, who in 2008 brought the Second Amendment to the Supreme Court for the very first time.

Edited August 5, 2019 by RobboM

[Justin Z]

5 minutes ago, RobboM said:

There's an excellent series of Podcasts on the Amendments to the American Constitution called "More Perfect" which goes through the evolution and implementation of all the Amendments.

 

Nice Robbo, thanks for this!

 

@ri Alban, @Maple Leaf already answered your question but it's worth noting any part of the entire Constitution can be amended at any time with a 2/3 vote from both houses of congress followed by ratification by 3/4 of the state legislatures. So at this point in time you'd need 67 senators, 290 members of the house of representatives, and 38 state legislatures to all agree something needed to be changed in the fundamental, constitutional order.

 

The first ten amendments are known as the Bill of Rights and were appended to the original Constitution in 1791, but they were proposals numbers three through twelve. The second proposal was not ratified by enough states until 1992 (regarding pay rises in congress). The first proposal has never been ratified because not enough states signed onto it, and there was no time limit on ratification written into it, so it could still in theory be ratified someday, but I doubt it.

 

Anyway, the theory behind most of the Bill of Rights was that many of the drafters thought "well these are rights that are implicit in the Constitution, you don't need to re-state them". Then others responded "oh you mean like the British constitutional system? Ahahahahaha yeah right, that's worked well". Seriously, there was an element of that. So they decided it was better to explicitly lay them out instead.

 

My favourite Founder, James Madison, wanted them to be incorporated into the main body of the Constitution, like normal laws that get amended, but they've listed them separately instead since all this started. This does mean that modern copies of the Constitution still have all the slavery provisions, for example (often redlined out to indicate they're not active now). But I rather like that, because of the reminder it serves, rather than appearing as if the Constitution has always been free of such morally wrong things.

[hereford_hearts]

21 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

And pre-Trump 4 out of the 10 of the biggest killings occurred during Obama's presidency. The number and scale of mass killings has therefore been growing for some time, accelerated under Obama and has obviously accelerated further under Trump. Of course Trump is a factor as is the general decline in the tone and content of American political and media/internet discourse but a simple cause and effect analysis is facile.

And of course mass killings are a very small tip of the iceberg of deaths by gun and other violence in the USA.

 

PS I am not sure what "majority view" I am against here.

Obama tried to push through gun control, but the senate had a Republican majority, and quashed all of his amendments.

[hereford_hearts]

21 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

And pre-Trump 4 out of the 10 of the biggest killings occurred during Obama's presidency. The number and scale of mass killings has therefore been growing for some time, accelerated under Obama and has obviously accelerated further under Trump. Of course Trump is a factor as is the general decline in the tone and content of American political and media/internet discourse but a simple cause and effect analysis is facile.

And of course mass killings are a very small tip of the iceberg of deaths by gun and other violence in the USA.

 

PS I am not sure what "majority view" I am against here.

Obama tried to push through gun control, but the senate had a Republican majority, and quashed all of his amendments.

[hereford_hearts]

I own a villa in Florida. As I have bills with my name on it, with my passport, I can legally go into my local Walmart and buy a handgun. They will give it to me there and then, with as much ammunition as I want. If I want a semi automatic rifle, I would have to wait for 24 hours to have police checks done!

[Justin Z]

 

Saw this. I'm not sure this is actually his calculus. I think his calculus is, "I can whip people into a frenzy and get their undying support if I say these things, so I'm going to." Amoral and sociopathic versus outright immoral.

[Don Dan]

I heard a on Sky News 40,000 people were killed in America by guns last year! Surly that’s not right?

 

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Dannie Boy said:

I heard a on Sky News 40,000 people were killed in America by guns last year! Surly that’s not right?

 

To put it in perspective, 40,000 is 0.01% of the American population. That would be equivalent to 500 or so people dying by guns in Scotland. Obviously it's way lower than that as it should be--the info I see is a total of 41 injuries, including non-fatal ones, in the most recent year tracked. Fatalities are probably on the order of the single digits, so you're still talking a 100-fold increase in the States by comparison to Scotland.

[Mikey1874]

7 hours ago, Cade said:

Black shooter = criminal act

Brown shooter = Terrorism

White shooter = mental health issues

 

That's the formula.

 

You normally wake up after incidents of terrorism with wall to wall coverage. But no. Good that Americans aren't jumping to any conclusions and investigating the matter properly. 

 

 

[Don Dan]

20 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

To put it in perspective, 40,000 is 0.01% of the American population. That would be equivalent to 500 or so people dying by guns in Scotland. Obviously it's way lower than that as it should be--the info I see is a total of 41 injuries, including non-fatal ones, in the most recent year tracked. Fatalities are probably on the order of the single digits, so you're still talking a 100-fold increase in the States by comparison to Scotland.

 

40k (shot dead) is an astonishing number of deaths for a so called civilised country even one as big as the US. I can’t get my head round the fact that they(US) don’t tackle that statistic head on and ban the sale of guns and scrap the Amendment. I realise there are certain areas in the US where a gun is needed eg in Alaska for hunting and protection. However Joe Bloggs having a gun cabinet filled with battle field weapons and other mass killing weapons should be banned.

I’m sure there is a register of all weapons sold. An amnesty where people hand in there treasured AK47 and all other guns should be held. Only weapons deemed essential should be help and under strict supervision. Easier said than done I know but at least it’s a start and it would show the world you are at least trying to do something.

There are obviously other issues involved here like racist rhetoric and attitudes. A determined nut job can easily shoot 20-30 people but it much harder for the nut job to stab that many. 

Ditch the guns.

[Mikey1874]

On the number of gun deaths it will always be the high profile events that get the publicity. 

 

But the breakdown is a bit sadder with two thirds being suicides. As is the case everywhere young men the main victims of violence (not women folks). Black men in America. Less accidents than I thought though. Always say not having guns here is very good. If you are unhappy or pissed off it takes more effort to do some serious damage. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/fivethirtyeight-breaks-down-the-more-than-33000-annual-u-s-gun-deaths/amp/

Edited August 5, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, hereford_hearts said:

Obama tried to push through gun control, but the senate had a Republican majority, and quashed all of his amendments.

I know. I wasn't criticising Obama just pointing out that the inexorable rise in gun killings seems to go on whoever is President. And I doubt even a large Democrat majority in both houses of congress would stop it. In fact it is probably too late for gun control to make a huge difference - there are enough guns in circulation to feed the growth in killing for the foreseeable future.

[Hugh Phamism]

There have been 250 mass shootings in the USA so far in 2019, and today is day 217 of the year.

 

[peter_hmfc]

Trump blaming the usual suspects: social media, mental health, video games.

 

[trotter]

4 hours ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

40k (shot dead) is an astonishing number of deaths for a so called civilised country even one as big as the US. I can’t get my head round the fact that they(US) don’t tackle that statistic head on and ban the sale of guns and scrap the Amendment. I realise there are certain areas in the US where a gun is needed eg in Alaska for hunting and protection. However Joe Bloggs having a gun cabinet filled with battle field weapons and other mass killing weapons should be banned.

I’m sure there is a register of all weapons sold. An amnesty where people hand in there treasured AK47 and all other guns should be held. Only weapons deemed essential should be help and under strict supervision. Easier said than done I know but at least it’s a start and it would show the world you are at least trying to do something.

There are obviously other issues involved here like racist rhetoric and attitudes. A determined nut job can easily shoot 20-30 people but it much harder for the nut job to stab that many. 

Ditch the guns.

In an ideal world yes, however in the one we inhabit gun control will NEVER, ever be successful here. Even if you ignore all the 2nd Amendment loonies, the NRA, the industry's incessant lobbying, you can't get away from one single fact:

Guns have been part of US culture since day 1. Their presence and use are ingrained into the population. Even if there was a large-scale legislative movement with an accompanying buy-back program (some people spend a lot of money on guns - its an expensive hobby), there will always be one person that thinks, "well, a bad guy might keep one gun, so I better keep two just in case".  Now granted an amnesty may well reduce the number of guns in circulation which would be a very good thing; but because of the sheer numbers involved, that number will NEVER be close to zero, and a determined bad guy/nut-job will ALWAYS be able to get their hands on one if they choose to do so. 

When you think about it in those terms, it somehow makes everything even more tragic. There is a problem that does not appear to have a solution. I'm not sure many other things in human history can have that said of them, maybe Middle East politics I guess. 

[The Internet]

56 minutes ago, peter_hmfc said:

Trump blaming the usual suspects: social media, mental health, video games.

 

 

[Sharpie]

Just heard one report that my hoped for Statesman like speech was not forth coming, in fact I never heard it but at one point he stated Toledo instead of Dayton.

[The Internet]

Ha he did actually say Toledo just pre-empting for when it does happen there I guess.