Hard Brexit

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, Boris said:

They did, and such is life. I genuinely wish I shared your optimism about Brexit, and I genuinely hope any misgivings I have are proven false. 

 

 

 

Of course there will be hurdles and issues to overcome but there is a huge opportunity for the UK here. It would be nice to see some positive stuff about this in the media. But hey ho they are what they are.

[Boris]

Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Of course there will be hurdles and issues to overcome but there is a huge opportunity for the UK here. It would be nice to see some positive stuff about this in the media. But hey ho they are what they are.

Maybe if the Brexiteers in chief laid out their vision, properly mind not on the side of a bus, then it could be scrutinised. All I seem to get is Denis Norden it'll be alright on the night. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, Boris said:

Maybe if the Brexiteers in chief laid out their vision, properly mind not on the side of a bus, then it could be scrutinised. All I seem to get is Denis Norden it'll be alright on the night. 

 

Park the bus Boris ffs! 

 

What really would help and would have helped was if Cameron had prepared for leave instead of arrogantly ignoring the possibility. And also if the Civil Service was reminded they serve parliament and not direct it. 

[The Mighty Thor]

8 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Park the bus Boris ffs! 

 

What really would help and would have helped was if Cameron had prepared for leave instead of arrogantly ignoring the possibility. And also if the Civil Service was reminded they serve parliament and not direct it. 

Isn't it just amazing how David Davis managed to pluck a solution for the Irish border out of thin air a few weeks after he'd spent 2 years fannying about unable to find a solution as Brexit secretary. 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

16 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Isn't it just amazing how David Davis managed to pluck a solution for the Irish border out of thin air a few weeks after he'd spent 2 years fannying about unable to find a solution as Brexit secretary. 

 

 

For all we know perhaps the solution has been known about and was there all along and for all we know some politicians on all sides didn't want to entertain the solution.

 

Bear in mind we are talking about politcians here, for some (most) of them, what they do and say in public often isn't what they agree to in private.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

For all we know perhaps the solution has been known about and was there all along and for all we know some politicians on all sides didn't want to entertain the solution.

 

Bear in mind we are talking about politcians here, for some (most) of them, what they do and say in public often isn't what they agree to in private.

 

Bear in mind that "solution" means "solution".  If someone's proposed solution isn't acceptable to the other side or doesn't work, then it's not a solution.

 

For the Rees-Mogg "solution" to work, it means that Irish people who travel into the UK will have to be checked - even if only a percentage of them, they'll still have to be checked.  Logically, it follows that we will have to check a percentage of British people who travel here.  Last winter the British government gave a commitment to the Irish government that it would not propose this.  Without that commitment the EU 27 would not even be entertaining British attempts to negotiate other matters.  Moreover, that commitment is needed so that the UK does not breach at least two international treaties.  Parliament has not authorised the government to breach or to exit those treaties.  The public have not voted to breach them.

[Ulysses]

On a lighter note:

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

20 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Bear in mind that "solution" means "solution".  If someone's proposed solution isn't acceptable to the other side or doesn't work, then it's not a solution.

 

For the Rees-Mogg "solution" to work, it means that Irish people who travel into the UK will have to be checked - even if only a percentage of them, they'll still have to be checked.  Logically, it follows that we will have to check a percentage of British people who travel here.  Last winter the British government gave a commitment to the Irish government that it would not propose this.  Without that commitment the EU 27 would not even be entertaining British attempts to negotiate other matters.  Moreover, that commitment is needed so that the UK does not breach at least two international treaties.  Parliament has not authorised the government to breach or to exit those treaties.  The public have not voted to breach them.

You neglected to mention the self policing element of the 'trusted trader' registration scheme, that in no way imaginable is open to abuse. 

So far this week it's economic modelling based on fantasy and 'honesty box' border control for the movement of goods.

No wonder they're  all backing May, they must be shitting themselves that they'd ever have to put any of their half arsed plans into action.

Edited September 12, 2018 by The Mighty Thor

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Bear in mind that "solution" means "solution".  If someone's proposed solution isn't acceptable to the other side or doesn't work, then it's not a solution.

 

For the Rees-Mogg "solution" to work, it means that Irish people who travel into the UK will have to be checked - even if only a percentage of them, they'll still have to be checked.  Logically, it follows that we will have to check a percentage of British people who travel here.  Last winter the British government gave a commitment to the Irish government that it would not propose this.  Without that commitment the EU 27 would not even be entertaining British attempts to negotiate other matters.  Moreover, that commitment is needed so that the UK does not breach at least two international treaties.  Parliament has not authorised the government to breach or to exit those treaties.  The public have not voted to breach them.

 

What do you mean by 'checked'?

 

Traveling to Ireland you are checked as it is, you have to have your passport checked before you gain entry into Ireland, and that is with an EU passport, what other checks can there be, which don't already currently happen?

[Ulysses]

6 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

What do you mean by 'checked'?

 

Traveling to Ireland you are checked as it is, you have to have your passport checked before you gain entry into Ireland, and that is with an EU passport, what other checks can there be, which don't already currently happen?

 

EU passport holders other than Irish and UK citizens are subject to passport checks on entry to Ireland - but British and Irish citizens are not legally required to undergo passport checks.

 

You don't have your passport checked when crossing the border.  Goods are not checked when crossing the border.  British citizens do not have to have their passports checked on entry to Ireland, and Irish citizens do not need to have their passports checked when entering the UK.  That last piece is odd in its own way.  Why?  Because if an immigration officer at a point of entry wants to know that you are British and therefore don't need a passport, or Irish and don't need a passport, the best and easiest way to prove it is........ 

 

That said, the position of the Irish government and the EU 27 is that the existing arrangements should continue after Brexit, and the British government gave a commitment that this would happen.  If so, there is no need for anything to change - which means this Conservative party Brexit group or whatever it's called has no business proposing changes or additional checks.  The British government should deliver on the commitment it made to Ireland the the EU 27 instead of cat-farting about.

[Francis Albert]

23 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

What do you mean by 'checked'?

 

Traveling to Ireland you are checked as it is, you have to have your passport checked before you gain entry into Ireland, and that is with an EU passport, what other checks can there be, which don't already currently happen?

In fact traveling from for example from london to edinburgh airlines expect you  to show your passport and almost everyone does. Another photo id such as driver licence may work and the requirement seems not always to be strictly enforced but it doesn't seem a huge imposition. And one that most easy going britishers seem to accept without much fuss. 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Francis Albert

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

In fact traveling from for example from london to edinburgh airlines expect you  to show your passport and almost everyone does. Another photo id such as driver licence may work and the requirement seems not always to be strictly enforced but it doesn't seem a huge imposition. And one that most easy going britishers seem to accept without much fuss. 

 

 

That's two very different things. 

I travel up and down to London regularly and showing my driving license at check in is very different to having your passport checked at a border checkpoint.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

EU passport holders other than Irish and UK citizens are subject to passport checks on entry to Ireland - but British and Irish citizens are not legally required to undergo passport checks.

 

You don't have your passport checked when crossing the border.  Goods are not checked when crossing the border.  British citizens do not have to have their passports checked on entry to Ireland, and Irish citizens do not need to have their passports checked when entering the UK.  That last piece is odd in its own way.  Why?  Because if an immigration officer at a point of entry wants to know that you are British and therefore don't need a passport, or Irish and don't need a passport, the best and easiest way to prove it is........ 

 

That said, the position of the Irish government and the EU 27 is that the existing arrangements should continue after Brexit, and the British government gave a commitment that this would happen.  If so, there is no need for anything to change - which means this Conservative party Brexit group or whatever it's called has no business proposing changes or additional checks.  The British government should deliver on the commitment it made to Ireland the the EU 27 instead of cat-farting about.

 

Sorry, but you are wrong there.

I flew from Edinburgh to Dublin and had my passport scanned and facial recognition used before the barrier would lift allowing me entry into Ireland,  I also had to give my passport number and expiry date to Ryanair as part of the conditions of travel prior to the date of travel, so as a British citizen I certainly had my passport checked upon entry into Ireland.

You might be able to drive on the roads unchecked between the North & South, and I don't know about ferries but flying into Dublin, I and everyone else had to have their passports scanned and checked before they were allowed into Ireland.

[Francis Albert]

14 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

That's two very different things. 

I travel up and down to London regularly and showing my driving license at check in is very different to having your passport checked at a border checkpoint.

Not sure what is "very different" TBH.

[Francis Albert]

I see Carney is predicting a 35% fall in property prices if there is a no-deal Brexit.

If so there you have it - the problem of affordability of housing fixed at a stroke.

[Ulysses]

14 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Sorry, but you are wrong there.

 

 

 

That's an extraordinarily reckless thing for you to say. 

 

Of course I'm not wrong. 

 

British and Irish citizens do not have to undergo passport checks to travel between the two countries, but because both countries are outside Schengen citizens of other EU countries do have to undergo checks.  That's the law, regardless of what happened to you.

 

It's a bonkers system, but it's true.  If you are travelling into Dublin Airport as a UK citizen and I am travelling into Dublin Airport as an Irish citizen, neither of us have to present our passports to gain entry.  All we have to do is announce our nationality, as long as we're travelling from the UK.  Of course, if we're asked to produce evidence of our nationality that's when the fun starts - but nonetheless that is the law.

 

Have a look at this, on the Irish Ferries website.  It both explains the legal position and simultaneously shows you how mad it is.

 

https://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/frequently-asked-questions/top-10-faqs/passports-identification/

 

Here's what Tripadvisor has to say:

 

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g186591-s602/Ireland:Crossing.The.Border.html

 

And finally, a word about UK passport holders from INIS - the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service of the Department of Justice:

 

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/uk-passport-holder

[Ulysses]

15 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

 I also had to give my passport number and expiry date to Ryanair.....

 

 

A fella dies unexpectedly, presents himself at the pearly gates and is admitted to heaven.  He's chatting with an angel and looking around, wondering if he'll spot any famous dead people, when all of a sudden he sees Ryanair head honcho Michael O'Leary. 

 

He's stunned, and says to the angel "I had no idea that Michael O'Leary was dead, it must have only happened today."

 

The angel replies "no, that's not Michael O'Leary.  That's God.  He only looks and dresses like that 'cos he thinks he's Michael O'Leary."

 

[Ulysses]

16 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

That's two very different things. 

I travel up and down to London regularly and showing my driving license at check in is very different to having your passport checked at a border checkpoint.

 

That's a subjective view.  An ardent Remain voter might tell you he's unsure what "very different" is.

 

TBCD. 

[AlphonseCapone]

16 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Sorry, but you are wrong there.

I flew from Edinburgh to Dublin and had my passport scanned and facial recognition used before the barrier would lift allowing me entry into Ireland,  I also had to give my passport number and expiry date to Ryanair as part of the conditions of travel prior to the date of travel, so as a British citizen I certainly had my passport checked upon entry into Ireland.

You might be able to drive on the roads unchecked between the North & South, and I don't know about ferries but flying into Dublin, I and everyone else had to have their passports scanned and checked before they were allowed into Ireland.

 

I go to Ireland a lot. Every time I've flown I've had to either use my passport at an electronic gate or give it to a guard. Now Ulysses is saying legally this isn't required to enter the country and he is probably right but I've never challenged it to find out what happens or how I get through that section of the airport without my passport! But to be fair, coming home from anywhere I go through the same process and legally I know I'm allowed in the UK, with or without owning a passport. 

 

On 12/09/2018 at 19:28, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Park the bus Boris ffs! 

 

What really would help and would have helped was if Cameron had prepared for leave instead of arrogantly ignoring the possibility. And also if the Civil Service was reminded they serve parliament and not direct it. 

 

They don't serve parliament, they serve the elected Government. That's not being pedantic, that's an important difference. 

[The Mighty Thor]

7 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I see Carney is predicting a 35% fall in property prices if there is a no-deal Brexit.

If so there you have it - the problem of affordability of housing fixed at a stroke.

I like Mark Carney.

 

His economic modelling would indicate that a no deal scenario would be damaging, he takes that and translates it into something the hard of thinking can easily understand. "Your big expensive house will be worth feck all and you'll be paying lots more for it"

 

So there you have it negative equity and high personal debt at a stroke.

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I like Mark Carney.

 

His economic modelling would indicate that a no deal scenario would be damaging, he takes that and translates it into something the hard of thinking can easily understand. "Your big expensive house will be worth feck all and you'll be paying lots more for it"

 

So there you have it negative equity and high personal debt at a stroke.

 

 

Has he ever got an economic prediction correct in regard to Brexit?

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Has he ever got an economic prediction correct in regard to Brexit?

Has Brexit happened yet?

Has the ERG released any plans to allow any kind of scrutiny?

Nothing from the no dealers. Nothing.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

That's an extraordinarily reckless thing for you to say. 

 

Of course I'm not wrong. 

 

British and Irish citizens do not have to undergo passport checks to travel between the two countries, but because both countries are outside Schengen citizens of other EU countries do have to undergo checks.  That's the law, regardless of what happened to you.

 

It's a bonkers system, but it's true.  If you are travelling into Dublin Airport as a UK citizen and I am travelling into Dublin Airport as an Irish citizen, neither of us have to present our passports to gain entry.  All we have to do is announce our nationality, as long as we're travelling from the UK.  Of course, if we're asked to produce evidence of our nationality that's when the fun starts - but nonetheless that is the law.

 

 

So, myself, Alphonse and the tens of thousands of other Brits who fly to Ireland are being forced to go through passport control when none of us need to be?

 

It's not bonkers, it's big brother.

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

A fella dies unexpectedly, presents himself at the pearly gates and is admitted to heaven.  He's chatting with an angel and looking around, wondering if he'll spot any famous dead people, when all of a sudden he sees Ryanair head honcho Michael O'Leary. 

 

He's stunned, and says to the angel "I had no idea that Michael O'Leary was dead, it must have only happened today."

 

The angel replies "no, that's not Michael O'Leary.  That's God.  He only looks and dresses like that 'cos he thinks he's Michael O'Leary."

 

 

I don't know what your system is in Ireland but in the UK when you buy flights, holiday's etc you have to give 'Advanced Passenger Information' which is your full name as it appears on your passport, your passport number and expiry date, and everything has to be exactly as it appears on your passport, if you don't give it, I'd assume you don't get your tickets and you don't fly, same as if you've filled the form out wrong.

 

That was why I said I had to give this information to Ryanair as I've had to do with every airline I've flown with going to anywhere in the EU & further afield.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Has Brexit happened yet?

Has the ERG released any plans to allow any kind of scrutiny?

Nothing from the no dealers. Nothing.

He predicted immediate negative consequences of a vote to leave which didn't happen.

The faith people put in the ability of experts to make predictions always surprises me given their track record.

Given all the uncertainties involved in predicting a 35% fall in property values I think large pinches of salt are justified.

One uncertainty is whether Gordon Brown's current prediction of another major global financial collapse, in particular for the banks, is right.

On the other hand dear old Gordon, with all the great resources and minds of the Treasury and Bank of England and many other the nation's greatest economists at his disposal failed to spot the coming of, or even seemingly serious risk of, the last such financial collapse. Now that his resources (relatively speaking) amount to access to North Queensferry public library, why should we have great faith in his current assessment?

[Francis Albert]

25 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

So, myself, Alphonse and the tens of thousands of other Brits who fly to Ireland are being forced to go through passport control when none of us need to be?

 

It's not bonkers, it's big brother.

 

I have no doubt Uly's interpretation of the law is correct (how as he says with his usual charming modesty) could it possibly be otherwise.

So the next time you are asked to show your passport or other photo id at the check in desk (or give details to the airline) when travelling within the UK or to Ireland simply say there is no law requiring you to do so.

Well worth risking missing your flight for the principle.

(PS or just tell them uly told you . That should do the trick.)

Edited September 14, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Jambo-Jimbo]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I have no doubt Uly's interpretation of the law is correct (how as he says with his usual charming modesty) could it possibly be otherwise.

So the next time you are asked to show your passport or other photo id at the check in desk (or give details to the airline) when travelling within the UK or to Ireland simply say there is no law requiring you to do so.

Well worth risking missing your flight for the principle.

(PS or just tell them uly told you . That should do the trick.)

 

Remember the programme about Easyjet several years ago, and remember how many people were turned away at check in because they had forgotten their passport.

I don't know where they were going, but the golden rule for flying is no passport no travel, simples.

[Boris]

26 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Remember the programme about Easyjet several years ago, and remember how many people were turned away at check in because they had forgotten their passport.

I don't know where they were going, but the golden rule for flying is no passport no travel, simples.

 

If going abroad, certainly.

 

If I'm taking an internal flight I never take my passport, just use my driving licence.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

11 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

If going abroad, certainly.

 

If I'm taking an internal flight I never take my passport, just use my driving licence.

 

As long as it's a photo licence.

I don't have have a licence so I have to show my passport and the wife still has an old paper licence which isn't acceptable so has to show her passport instead, so even on internal UK flights you need to show your passport if you don't have a photo driving licence.

[Francis Albert]

10 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's a subjective view.  An ardent Remain voter might tell you he's unsure what "very different" is.

 

TBCD. 

Trinity Bay Conservation District (of Texas) is all google comes up with??

 

And it is "remain supporter on balance with reservations and no great enthusiasm for the EU institution". Not "ardent" Remainer. I know you value precision.

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

As long as it's a photo licence.

I don't have have a licence so I have to show my passport and the wife still has an old paper licence which isn't acceptable so has to show her passport instead, so even on internal UK flights you need to show your passport if you don't have a photo driving licence.

 

Indeed, and as the passport is about the only thing, other than a DL, that is "proper" photographic evidence of identity, it is used.

 

I was against ID cards initially, but they make make some useful sense now.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

He predicted immediate negative consequences of a vote to leave which didn't happen.

The faith people put in the ability of experts to make predictions always surprises me given their track record.

Given all the uncertainties involved in predicting a 35% fall in property values I think large pinches of salt are justified.

One uncertainty is whether Gordon Brown's current prediction of another major global financial collapse, in particular for the banks, is right.

On the other hand dear old Gordon, with all the great resources and minds of the Treasury and Bank of England and many other the nation's greatest economists at his disposal failed to spot the coming of, or even seemingly serious risk of, the last such financial collapse. Now that his resources (relatively speaking) amount to access to North Queensferry public library, why should we have great faith in his current assessment?

 

The thing is about all these predictions is how can anybody know or even predict what could happen post brexit considering nobody has left the EU before so nobody knows what is acually going to happen.

It's always could happen, might happen, there's a possibility of this happening, yeh true but there's also the possibility that they are talking a load of shit and little to nothing happens post brexit.

 

That is why I'll just wait and see what does/doesn't happen and adjust and cope with any changes, just like most of us have always done.

I'll tell you one thing, I certainly not worrying about it.

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

 

 

That is why I'll just wait and see what does/doesn't happen and adjust and cope with any changes, just like most of us have always done.

I'll tell you one thing, I certainly not worrying about it.

This is exactly where I'm at. Good things will come out of leaving and bad things, the world won't end. Predictions have been made in the past and have been way wide of the mark, I don't think the majority of people put much store in "expert predictions" now apart from the folk that want them to be right. 

[Francis Albert]

The French Minister for European affairs has said that in the event of a no deal Brexit France will not allow Eurostar trains to enter France.

A (presumably ardent) pro "people's vote"  Remainer MP has predictably responded with "No-one voted for a Brexit where planes are grounded and rail links cut off, but that is what they are getting".

Assuming ferries are also stopped and Britain will thus be completely cut off from the Continent, maybe a return of the Atlantic convoys should be part of contingency planning.

Fortunately EU common defence hasn't get developed a fleet of U-boats but there is always the French navy. 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

27 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The French Minister for European affairs has said that in the event of a no deal Brexit France will not allow Eurostar trains to enter France.

A (presumably ardent) pro "people's vote"  Remainer MP has predictably responded with "No-one voted for a Brexit where planes are grounded and rail links cut off, but that is what they are getting".

Assuming ferries are also stopped and Britain will thus be completely cut off from the Continent, maybe a return of the Atlantic convoys should be part of contingency planning.

Fortunately EU common defence hasn't get developed a fleet of U-boats but there is always the French navy. 

 

 

A huge boost to British shipyards to build all the new ships needed to transport supplies in, and I know a few brickies who'll brick up the tunnel if need be.

Besides however will the French & Germans sell their cars if the UK is completely cut off?

 

All this scaremongering is getting a bit desperate now IMO.

 

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

A huge boost to British shipyards to build all the new ships needed to transport supplies in, and I know a few brickies who'll brick up the tunnel if need be.

Besides however will the French & Germans sell their cars if the UK is completely cut off?

 

All this scaremongering is getting a bit desperate now IMO.

 

 

It may be scaremongering, or it may be that, in this case the French, European Givts are getting a bit cheesed off at whot they see as UK intransigence over the negotiations.

 

Simply saying, on our side, that "everything will be fine" isn't really the answer.

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

It may be scaremongering, or it may be that, in this case the French, European Givts are getting a bit cheesed off at whot they see as UK intransigence over the negotiations.

 

Simply saying, on our side, that "everything will be fine" isn't really the answer.

I don't think "intransigence" is just down to the UK, the EU hardly seem overly flexible! 

Saying "everything will be fine" is no answer but neither is "we're all doomed" 

It's a negotiation, neither side are going to want the shitty end of the stick, neither side will be showing all thier cards, both sides want what's best. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

It may be scaremongering, or it may be that, in this case the French, European Givts are getting a bit cheesed off at whot they see as UK intransigence over the negotiations.

 

Simply saying, on our side, that "everything will be fine" isn't really the answer.

 

That is subjective depending upon which side you support, the Pro-EU side see it that it's the UK, but the Brexiteers see it as intransigence on the EU side.

 

 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

I don't think "intransigence" is just down to the UK, the EU hardly seem overly flexible! 

Saying "everything will be fine" is no answer but neither is "we're all doomed" 

It's a negotiation, neither side are going to want the shitty end of the stick, neither side will be showing all thier cards, both sides want what's best. 

 

Kind of agree with that.  Ultimately though, the UK aren't going to get what they originally had.  That's what happens when you leave something!

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

It may be scaremongering, or it may be that, in this case the French, European Givts are getting a bit cheesed off at whot they see as UK intransigence over the negotiations.

 

Simply saying, on our side, that "everything will be fine" isn't really the answer.

Agreed. But the UK has also been "rebuked" by Barnier for trying discuss contingency arrangements with France. These dire warnings and refusal to have such discussions are part of the EU negotiating strategy. It is a pity we didn't adopt a similar clear and robust negotiating position. Well we sort of tried but the UK government was undermined from day one including by its own and other MPs (who of course voted overwhelming to hold the referendum) when it suggested "no deal is better than a bad deal" (the absolute  minimum you have to say if you are have any credibility whatever in a negotiation and not be seen to be willing to accept anything the other side wants).

It is also regrettable that we accepted the EU's intransigence in not even being willing to begin negotiations until we accepted the preconditions on the divorce bill and Ireland.

Our negotiations have been conducted in a way that suggests they are being conducted by Remainers. As for the most part they are, supported by advice from overwhelmingly Remain-supporting officials and civil servants and Bank of England .

 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

That is subjective depending upon which side you support, the Pro-EU side see it that it's the UK, but the Brexiteers see it as intransigence on the EU side.

 

 

 

Perhaps, but wouldn't you think that as it is us leaving, we can't really do much if the EU says, "sorry to see you go, but if you want stuff here are the conditions".  Basically like they do to any other non-eu nation?

[Boris]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

Agreed. But the UK has also been "rebuked" by Barnier for trying discuss contingency arrangements with France. These dire warnings and refusal to have such discussions are part of the EU negotiating strategy. It is a pity we didn't adopt a similar clear and robust negotiating position. Well we sort of tried but the UK government was undermined from day one including by its own and other MPs (who of course voted overwhelming to hold the referendum) when it suggested "no deal is better than a bad deal" (the absolute  minimum you have to say if you are have any credibility whatever in a negotiation and not be seen to be willing to accept anything the other side wants).

It is also regrettable that we accepted the EU's intransigence in not even being willing to begin negotiations until we accepted the preconditions on the divorce bill and Ireland.

Our negotiations have been conducted in a way that suggests they are being conducted by Remainers. As for the most part they are, supported by advice from overwhelmingly Remain-supporting officials and civil servants and Bank of England .

 

 

Maybe they know something we don't?

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Kind of agree with that.  Ultimately though, the UK aren't going to get what they originally had.  That's what happens when you leave something!

I think any half sensible person would figure out we'd loose somethings, it's a divorce after all, but what we'll get back hopefully will be more than we loose, it's the same in any separation, but all this "we never knew what we were voting for" is just rubbish imo, you'd have to be a special kind of stupid to think everything was going to go in our favor. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Has Brexit happened yet?

Has the ERG released any plans to allow any kind of scrutiny?

Nothing from the no dealers. Nothing.

 

Well we are talking about your hero and his predictions about what would happen after Brexit not the ERG. Lets add in his predictions of doom post referendum. Did any of them come to fruition? Let's even talk about his pretty woeful management of the BofE. 

[Boris]

41 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

you'd have to be a special kind of stupid to think everything was going to go in our favor. 

 

I'm sure there were/are some...

[Jambo-Jimbo]

56 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Perhaps, but wouldn't you think that as it is us leaving, we can't really do much if the EU says, "sorry to see you go, but if you want stuff here are the conditions".  Basically like they do to any other non-eu nation?

 

That is what negotiations are all about, you want something you give something in return and the other side do as well, especially when trade is concerned and both sides already trade and sell goods to each other, and both sides still want to sell goods to each other after brexit, and that is why both sides need to give ground.

 

I have never ever thought that we would get the same/better deal as we had before brexit, that I knew was never ever on the cards, but the UK's negotiating position was undermined from day one because in any negotiations you have to be prepared to walk away from them, and the other side needs to know that you would do it as well, and that works both ways.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

The French Minister for European affairs has said that in the event of a no deal Brexit France will not allow Eurostar trains to enter France.

A (presumably ardent) pro "people's vote"  Remainer MP has predictably responded with "No-one voted for a Brexit where planes are grounded and rail links cut off, but that is what they are getting".

Assuming ferries are also stopped and Britain will thus be completely cut off from the Continent, maybe a return of the Atlantic convoys should be part of contingency planning.

Fortunately EU common defence hasn't get developed a fleet of U-boats but there is always the French navy. 

 

 

I’m sure the (French and Canadian) majority shareholders in Eurostar might be slightly less than chuffed by such a move. 

 

I’m sure the French Government will compensate them. 

 

 

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I’m sure the (French and Canadian) majority shareholders in Eurostar might be slightly less than chuffed by such a move. 

 

I’m sure the French Government will compensate them. 

 

 

 

They may argue that liability falls with the UK as it is the UK that has withdrawn from agreements.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

They may argue that liability falls with the UK as it is the UK that has withdrawn from agreements.

 

Is the Eurostar agreement a bilateral agreement between the UK & France or an agreement between the UK & the EU?

I think it has nothing to do with the EU as it's an agreement between the UK & France and was agreed long before the present EU came into being, I've not checked so I could be wrong about that.

[Thunderstruck]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

They may argue that liability falls with the UK as it is the UK that has withdrawn from agreements.

 

Unlikely as the French would have closed the border.

 

However, given that the French shareholder is state owned, I expect that the U.K. Government might be offering them free advice on sex and travel.