Hard Brexit

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I see. And how do you, like Timpsons, put this into practice? 

 

I'm not as well off as you Spacey. So don't presume to call me "nuevo riche". Whilst in a decent profession I'm struggling to put a foot on the housing ladder or afford rent in Edinburgh. But bash on with presumptions. 

 

Perhaps my views of the flaws in Scotland and the UK are formed by the fact that unlike you I'm not well off and can see the crap in the utterings of strawmen offering jam tomorrow.

 

If anything you're nouveau riche.

 

Im older than you, therefor I've had more time to accumulate wealth. I've negligible mortgage due to the interest rate with Santander that I took out pre banking crisis, 0.5 above base rates for life. 

 

The Timpsons MD gives ex prisoners jobs in his shops. Have a look. I'm all for that, have a look. See what can happen when you break from the norm HR policy that you all learned in Uni. 

 

The financial flaws right right now belong to the banks and the credit bubble pre 2008, to say it's the SNP's fault shows a lack of understanding and maturity. 

 

 

[JamboX2]

32 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Im older than you, therefor I've had more time to accumulate wealth. I've negligible mortgage due to the interest rate with Santander that I took out pre banking crisis, 0.5 above base rates for life. 

 

The Timpsons MD gives ex prisoners jobs in his shops. Have a look. I'm all for that, have a look. See what can happen when you break from the norm HR policy that you all learned in Uni. 

 

The financial flaws right right now belong to the banks and the credit bubble pre 2008, to say it's the SNP's fault shows a lack of understanding and maturity. 

 

 

 

I totally understand what Timpsons do. And I'm all for that. What do you do that's similar was my question to you.

 

I didn't study HR by the way. But again assume away.

 

Your generation are a golden one in comparison to mine. The system now is set against us. A negligible mortgage is a dream for us in the future the way things are shapping up - Brexit and Independence are huge destabilisers to our own job security and ability to build a life. I'm in my late 20s. The future benefits of Brexit or Indy won't help me but may the kids I have in a hypothetical future with a wife I've not yet met. Hardly a prospectus to be pleased with!

 

It's not all about banking crashes mate. I went to uni with no fees (cheers Donald and Jim) and didn't pay endowment on my earnings (cheets Eck). Yet I've a sizeable student debt from uni cause to pay for no endowment , living grants were slashed so loans were the only option. There's an affordable housing shortage in Edinburgh - housing is devolved and I've come of age under the SNP... I've seen local services slashed due to an underfunded Tory-esque council tax freeze benefiting folk like you over me.

 

Sorry - but I fail to see how breaking up countries and leaving the EU helps these issues. Really don't.

 

You can manage and deal with the risks these things throw up. Frankly, I can't. The future belongs to the young. It's why Brexit grates so much. It's why Indy would too. My generation - to me - is going to have to pick up the peices of the identity crises of those preceding it. Fabby. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by JamboX2

[jambo lodge]

7 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

There's an "elite" on both sides here.

 

An elite is a group with power, influence and money. How Mogg, Johnson, Dacre, Gove, Farage, Banks and groups like the DUP and papers like the Mail, Express and Telegraph do not collectively constitute an elite I'm not quite sure.

 

On the form it should take, all those you mention have entered that debate and want a soft brexit. They've all said why. And they're also giving reasons for why parliamentary sovereignty should be properly exercised over a final say over the will of the executive.

 

Why then should we be calling one lot an elite and another not?

 

It is as clear as day. Those trying to mould the terms of Brexit are mainly elected MP's in the Conservative Party, Those in opposition are just opportunists who love to make speeches about how bad everything is. TV channels in particular are very much against Brexit, with their own correspondents often waffling their "expert" views on where it is all going wrong. Then we have the elite, ex Prime Ministers etc, mostly failed voices from the past, popping their heads up to support another referendum. UK democracy will win at the end of the day and we will be out of an undemocratic  EU.      

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, jambo lodge said:

 

It is as clear as day. Those trying to mould the terms of Brexit are mainly elected MP's in the Conservative Party, Those in opposition are just opportunists who love to make speeches about how bad everything is. TV channels in particular are very much against Brexit, with their own correspondents often waffling their "expert" views on where it is all going wrong. Then we have the elite, ex Prime Ministers etc, mostly failed voices from the past, popping their heads up to support another referendum. UK democracy will win at the end of the day and we will be out of an undemocratic  EU.      

 

Earlier you called for a debate on the terms. Why is debate within a party between hard brexit and soft brexit good, but having the opposition involved bad.

 

With Scottish politics we've seen the total destruction of civil debate. Any opposition isn't healthy but opportunistic by the governing party and and vice versa. Brexit - like independence - is doing likewise to UK politics.

 

May leads a minority government backed by the DUP. We live in a parliamentary sovereignty system (I assume you like other pro-Brexiters favoured that). That system is one which says all parliament - both sides - are sovereign. So. If the opposition amd soft Brexit members vote for a customs union and defeat the view of the government is that not a healthy exercise of democratic decision making in our system? 

 

I'd say so.

 

As for the tv news - the presenters are not the experts. They are journalists, as you well know. They're job is to present news to you on tv relaying their well sourced news. You can't broadcast tv news in the UK without corroborated stories and showing a balance of opinions to a topic. This issue of broadcast media bias is a red herring. The papers are a huge issue: owned by a small group of tax exiles, setting an agenda as they have editorial freedom to sign up to whatever political views take their fancy. I'm not opposing the freedom of editorial opinion, but there needs to be huge changes in media ownership laws to allow for plurality of opinions in the press. A press currently dominated by the right: Dacre and Murdoch.

 

That's elitism. That's narrowing the public debate.

 

Also, the men who negotiated a peace in NI and returned devolution after the 30 years of the Troubles are hardly failures. A 3 term winning PM? These men sat at the top tables of Europe. They know its limitations and its strengths. They know the UK as it stands in the EU has a better deal than anyone. They've more knowledgeable things to say than the likes of Mogg (a middling backbench tff who has never cleaned one of his 6 kids' nappies) or Farage (a charlatan career politician who is a former investment banker who rarely shows up in Brussels to major meetings if the Parliament he's elected to but pockets the cash he gets, a man by all accounts seeking dual nationality to retain the benefits of the EU for himself).

 

A democracy can't be tied to the decisions of the past when those decisions increasingly look likely to harm a majority of the nation. Look to America and it's slavish adherence to a right to own a gun: created to have militias to defend the nation, now a licence to allow school shootings to happen more than any other western nation. Or Ireland where there's been a debate on marriage equality won and now one on abortion which again looks likely to overturn the previously imposed ban on abortions. Democracy is about continuous progress and changing to suit the times. Not once you've made a decision that's it. 

 

Also, we the people were deemed smart enough by parliament to make this decision to leave. Are we therefore not able enough to decide if the deal the government has made for us is good enough for us as a people?

 

If you truly believe in democracy you cannot then argue that on the final deal that it no longer applies. But increasingly the top Brexit politicians seem to think listening to the people ended in June 2016.

 

And you never answered my question, how is the Brexit elite not an elite?

Edited March 3, 2018 by JamboX2

[The Mighty Thor]

13 hours ago, jake said:

You talk of contempt and post about old feckers

 

 

Yip. I do.

It's no coincidence that the age range that voted for Brexit the most was 55 and over. It's an age group with a world view that is so far removed from reality, with their prejudices stoked by media outlets pandering to their narrow mindedness. I'd be interested to see what the age demographic of party voting is, however I can't be arsed.

 

On a positive it appears to be a pretty harsh end to the winter which tends to accelerate natural selection

 

 

[Sraman]

Scottish politics is a farce. The Scottish Parliament is a farce. It is a farce due to the Unionist parties having no voice of their own, they take instruction from Westminster and if they do have the temerity to speak their own mind they are hauled in to head office and put back in line. Flip flop ruthie anyone? Leader of Scottish Labour who doesn't even know we are a different country with different laws?? A complete and utter farce, just the way they want it.

 

A Labour, Conservative or Liberal supporter has no say in Scottish Politics as far as I am concerned as they have no interest in Scotland having it's own say. Fall in line plebs and don't you dare complain about it.

 

Brexit, ha ha.

 

We're all getting the shit you deserve. Thanks for that.

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yip. I do.

It's no coincidence that the age range that voted for Brexit the most was 55 and over. It's an age group with a world view that is so far removed from reality, with their prejudices stoked by media outlets pandering to their narrow mindedness. I'd be interested to see what the age demographic of party voting is, however I can't be arsed.

 

On a positive it appears to be a pretty harsh end to the winter which tends to accelerate natural selection

 

 

Strange that in most older cultures in Asia and Africa and the Americas the old are respected (even in some cases venerated) for their greater wisdom and experience, Here we seem increasingly to think that 16 year olds (or even younger) deserve more respect than over 50s or 6os.

In fact many millions of people under 55 or even under 40 voted for Leave and voted No in the Indyref. Is it possible they were just the more mature part of that demographic?

Some of the reaction of the young to Brexit leads me to wonder if they are aware that British people travelled, and worked and lived in other European countries long before the EU was invented. And other Europeans vice versa in relation to the UK. The instant simplistically sloganned demonstrations on any and every issue indicates to me a deep seated immaturity and lack of education among much of the youth "demographic".

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Sraman said:

Scottish politics is a farce. The Scottish Parliament is a farce. It is a farce due to the Unionist parties having no voice of their own, they take instruction from Westminster and if they do have the temerity to speak their own mind they are hauled in to head office and put back in line. Flip flop ruthie anyone? Leader of Scottish Labour who doesn't even know we are a different country with different laws?? A complete and utter farce, just the way they want it.

 

A Labour, Conservative or Liberal supporter has no say in Scottish Politics as far as I am concerned as they have no interest in Scotland having it's own say. Fall in line plebs and don't you dare complain about it.

 

Brexit, ha ha.

 

We're all getting the shit you deserve. Thanks for that.

Who elected Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem MPs in Scotland? Ignorant plebs one and all?

 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

On a positive it appears to be a pretty harsh end to the winter which tends to accelerate natural selection

 

 

That remark does you no credit, IMO.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

That remark does you no credit, IMO.

Noted and genuinely meant in jest.

 

Apologies if anyone  is offended.

 

 

 

 

[Ulysses]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

Noted and genuinely meant in jest.

 

Apologies if anyone  is offended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, and sorry for having a go, it wasn't meant that way.  I know your form as a good poster on here. 

[The Mighty Thor]

10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Strange that in most older cultures in Asia and Africa and the Americas the old are respected (even in some cases venerated) for their greater wisdom and experience, Here we seem increasingly to think that 16 year olds (or even younger) deserve more respect than over 50s or 6os.

In fact many millions of people under 55 or even under 40 voted for Leave and voted No in the Indyref. Is it possible they were just the more mature part of that demographic?

Some of the reaction of the young to Brexit leads me to wonder if they are aware that British people travelled, and worked and lived in other European countries long before the EU was invented. And other Europeans vice versa in relation to the UK. The instant simplistically sloganned demonstrations on any and every issue indicates to me a deep seated immaturity and lack of education among much of the youth "demographic".

FA i'd agree that in other cultures the aged and learned are revered, however in the context of what has happened here in the UK with the Brexit referendum, i'm afraid I personally feel that the older generation have sold the youth down the river by removing the UK from it's largest market and along with that the opportunities for free movement and employment within that market. 

The world is changing quicker than their understanding of how it all works and whilst it's democratic, I still feel that there's a sense of wrong about someone 75 taking the opportunities away from someone who is 15 just because they don't understand the global picture or have been fed a load of tosh by a predominately right wing, conservative leaning media.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

FA i'd agree that in other cultures the aged and learned are revered, however in the context of what has happened here in the UK with the Brexit referendum, i'm afraid I personally feel that the older generation have sold the youth down the river by removing the UK from it's largest market and along with that the opportunities for free movement and employment within that market. 

The world is changing quicker than their understanding of how it all works and whilst it's democratic, I still feel that there's a sense of wrong about someone 75 taking the opportunities away from someone who is 15 just because they don't understand the global picture or have been fed a load of tosh by a predominately right wing, conservative leaning media.

 

 

At least you upped the age threshold for senility (and euthanasia?)  from 50 to 75, so I have a few years respite!

 

75 year olds may not be as au fait with some of the great innovations of the modern world (?) as 15 year olds but they have the advantage of having lived as adults for 60 years longer. And while the world has certainly changed, in its fundamentals it hasn't changed nearly as much as young people like to think, and by no means always for the better. 

 

UK is not being removed from its largest market. The terms of trade will change to a greater or lesser extent depending on the outcome of the Brexit negotiation, but the UK will still participate in that market.

 

In practice the opportunities for free movement and employment will not change much. You will still need money and need to be able to get a job (or as in the case of most Brits currently living in the rest of the EU) have enough to live on retirement income if you are unfortunate enough to be old. 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

16 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

At least you upped the age threshold for senility (and euthanasia?)  from 50 to 75, so I have a few years respite!

 

75 year olds may not be as au fait with some of the great innovations of the modern world (?) as 15 year olds but they have the advantage of having lived as adults for 60 years longer. And while the world has certainly changed, in its fundamentals it hasn't changed nearly as much as young people like to think, and by no means always for the better. 

 

UK is not being removed from its largest market. The terms of trade will change to a greater or lesser extent depending on the outcome of the Brexit negotiation, but the UK will still participate in that market.

 

In practice the opportunities for free movement and employment will not change much. You will still need money and need to be able to get a job (or as in the case of most Brits currently living in the rest of the EU) have enough to live on retirement income if you are unfortunate enough to be old. 

 

I had to up the age mate. I'm 50 too.

 

I'd agree that things haven't always changed for the better but its the pace of change that older folks (myself included) can't quite deal with. Cast your mind back 25 years. Would you have called half the things going on today in terms of technology and how we live our lives? In fact this 'conversation' would have taken weeks as the posties ferried replies back and forth. My point is and was that we can't get our heads around how the 15 year olds of today will be living and working in 25 years time so restricting their access and opportunities for the most spurious and misguided of reasons is wholly wrong. 

 

That's why in 2014 i gave my then 15 year old son my vote in the indy ref as he missed the age cut off by a few months and again in the Brexit ref he called the vote as by the time the decisions made cycle through i'll be sitting in a freezing retirement flat with a one bar fire on,swearing at homes under the hammer like an embittered Father Jack type.

[jake]

5 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yip. I do.

It's no coincidence that the age range that voted for Brexit the most was 55 and over. It's an age group with a world view that is so far removed from reality, with their prejudices stoked by media outlets pandering to their narrow mindedness. I'd be interested to see what the age demographic of party voting is, however I can't be arsed.

 

On a positive it appears to be a pretty harsh end to the winter which tends to accelerate natural selection

 

 

Glad I caught this late or I might have went off on one.So it was good to read your approaching old coffee territory too ?and the reasoning behind your initial post.

There is some merit in your view .

Many English towns changed rapidly and I don't think we in Scotland appreciate that.

I have stated my reasons for voting brexit.

I won't bother giving my views on the freedom of movement again.

I cannot agree with your assertion that the media was anti EU except for a few papers.

Anyway I'm still of the opinion that long term it's the right decision.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

8 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

What are these misguided and spurious reasons?

 

Your already at father jack stage imho.

 

 

 

 

Nah you're right. It's all solid gold. We have a very bright future ahead of us away from our European overlords.

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

So not prepared to answer my question. 

 

Then just make something up I haven’t said to try and change the point.

 

Defo at the father jack stage. A bit more bitter though.

 

Not a good combo lol.

 

You need a drink!

 

 

Oh you're being serious?

 

The spurious and misguided I was chuntering on about will be no surprise to you. EU red tape, EU funding,  the literally millions of them immigrants taking our jobs, but chiefly the whole thing is a poorly disguised ruse to paper over what is just a turf war over Tory dogma.

 

But you knew all that., if you didn't I'll take that drink and make it a pint of what you're on

 

[jambo lodge]

5 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yip. I do.

It's no coincidence that the age range that voted for Brexit the most was 55 and over. It's an age group with a world view that is so far removed from reality, with their prejudices stoked by media outlets pandering to their narrow mindedness. I'd be interested to see what the age demographic of party voting is, however I can't be arsed.

 

On a positive it appears to be a pretty harsh end to the winter which tends to accelerate natural selection

 

 

 

Probably one of the most patronising and ill informed posts I have ever read on Kickback, and we do have some Zoomers on this forum from time to time. Perhaps older people have something that only experience teaches you.....Wisdom.

[Francis Albert]

Just on this young vs old thing.

First old people generally don't think May or Mogg or Gove or even Farage are fascists because they have a better idea of what fascist means.

Second young people may claim Brexit is "destroying their future"but old people know their future happiness will be determined by many things more significant than whether the UK is in the EU or not.

[The Mighty Thor]

32 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

If people have concerns over those issues why are they not valid? You ain’t judge a jury, thankfully!

 

I hear the tory infighting line a lot. Seriously what do the tories benefit from leading the country into a disaster and becoming unelectable? 

 

The tories are only only interested in profits and greed. How do they benefit from losing power and shit economy with no profits.

 

As you said your the ranting father jack. 

 

Something has happened you don’t like and your lashing old name calling and wishing old people dead lol.

Yip they are all valid points. Every one of them. European red tape and our funding contribution often keep me awake at night. 

 

What the Tories stand to gain from self destructing over Europe, i have no idea. However they seem intent on doing exactly that regardless of the consequences to themselves or indeed the country. Time will tell.

 

I'm sure that there will be plenty money to be made from the industry of dealing with Europe that pops up post Brexit. It'll be a slightly different trough to get their snouts into.

 

 

[jambo lodge]

17 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Just on this young vs old thing.

First old people generally don't think May or Mogg or Gove or even Farage are fascists because they have a better idea of what fascist means.

Second young people may claim Brexit is "destroying their future"but old people know their future happiness will be determined by many things more significant than whether the UK is in the EU or not.

 

Wisdom.

[The Mighty Thor]

45 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

Whether it keeps up awake at night, neither here or there. As I said you ain’t judge and jury. Doubt it keeps anyone awake at night and that just your hyperbole tbh.

 

When peope are are forced to give a binary answer to something. They will; irrespective how much they care about it.

 

A post or so back you said brexit was all about a Tory turf war. However, you have no idea they are having this turf war about lol. Doesn’t sound like you know what you talking about to me.

 

To summarise your last para, what your saying is tories think that brexit will mean more profits and a better economy? Which in turns raises everyone standard of living.

 

Do you seriously think ‘old’ people are voting thinking this will the **** younger generation up or this decision will benefit the future generation?

 

Lets be honest old people need young people to keep them in lifestyle they’ve become accustomed to! 

 

Can we we at least agree people maybe voted with intention of what they believed as best as opposed to be a bunch of racist, idiots?

You're paraphrasing all over the shop here BJ.

why the Tory turf war? They've got no credible opposition and could be in power for a long time yet Europe is a scab they can't stop picking. Why would they do that?

You've summarised poorly. There will be no great benefit from the cottage industry around Brexit to all but a small number of individuals/companies. In fact, as the government's own research reported, we'll all be worse off. The question is how much worse off.

No. I think the older generation Actually believe in 'great' Britain and I'm sure a lot of them feel leaving the EU will make Britain great again. I believe the consequence of that vote will damage future opportunities for our kids.

I'm agree that a lot of people voted with their beliefs, however i still believe a lot of people voted on the back of the misinformation peddled to them during the campaign. That's the modern electoral process.

[AuldReekie444]

51 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You're paraphrasing all over the shop here BJ.

why the Tory turf war? They've got no credible opposition and could be in power for a long time yet Europe is a scab they can't stop picking. Why would they do that?

You've summarised poorly. There will be no great benefit from the cottage industry around Brexit to all but a small number of individuals/companies. In fact, as the government's own research reported, we'll all be worse off. The question is how much worse off.

No. I think the older generation Actually believe in 'great' Britain and I'm sure a lot of them feel leaving the EU will make Britain great again. I believe the consequence of that vote will damage future opportunities for our kids.

I'm agree that a lot of people voted with their beliefs, however i still believe a lot of people voted on the back of the misinformation peddled to them during the campaign. That's the modern electoral process.

 

That is a daft belief. 

 

[Francis Albert]

23 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Anti-immigrant, nationalistic, one man band, anti-non British, rightist leaning... 

 

The Mail, Express, Sun and Telegraph have all tacitly backed the same narrative as UKIP and Farage. Airing his views in mass media like they often do via editorials etc is clear to see. Seen the front covers of the Daily Mail in the run up to the referendum? Bit ukipy.

None of the publications you have cited backed UKIP and Farage. "Tacitly backed the same narrative" is meaningless gobblededook. If they aired their views it was because it was news, The Guardian also aired their views.

Quote

 

 

For what they do wrong, yes. For doing their job and preparing forecasts on growth etc they shouldn't.

 

The strength of the UK comes from highly professional groups like civil service running things with little political interference. Look to the USA for the outcomes of a politicised civil service; still a lot of ambassadors for Trump to appoint... 

So the country is actually run by the civil service without political interference. Yes Minister.

Quote

 

 

 

And yet... a lot more EU nations than not have nationalised utilities.... some run ours! Deary me. Big bad EU preventing us nationalising Scotrail but lets the nationalised Dutch railways do it...

The EU rules prevented the UK from protecting its steel industry, or would have done if it seriously wanted to,

Quote

 

 

 

 

Who's saying we should disregard democracy?!? I'm arguing experts should be consulted and unlike Gove said "(we've) had enough of them". 

 

The DUP and SF are frankly obstructionists. And the fact that they win nowadays compared to rational folk in the UUP and SDLP nuts.

 

Fact is though the DUP is the largest NI party in the last Stormont election yet it struggles to accept it ahould govern. 

The irrational people, as you describe them, were elected by the people of Northern Ireland. Maybe the experts and civil servants you so admire should have a right of veto over candidates in democratic elections

Edited March 4, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Boris]

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n05/william-davies/what-are-they-after

 

I found this an nteresting read.  Thought I'd share.

[John Findlay]

I see this thread has gone a bit quiet now that the divisions about Brexit in the labour party have come to the fore and, it turns out(no surprise really) they are no different from the Tory party.

[Francis Albert]

On ‎09‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 11:54, Boris said:

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n05/william-davies/what-are-they-after

 

I found this an nteresting read.  Thought I'd share.

Yes an interesting read but at bottom just another  remainer rant complete with naïve acceptance of forecasts of economic calamity.   He refers approvingly to the outgoing German ambassador's complaint about our supposed obsession about our role in standing alone against Hitler and Germany in 1940 - a "nice story" in his words. But without that stance there would be no European Union and Britain is perfectly entitled to feel proud of its defiance then. Just as it should be ashamed of lots of what it has done in its colonial past. And Germany and France and other members of the EU should about the somewhat less nice stories of the mid twentieth century. 

[JamboX2]

On 3/3/2018 at 19:24, Lord BJ said:

If people have concerns over those issues why are they not valid? You ain’t judge a jury, thankfully!

 

I hear the tory infighting line a lot. Seriously what do the tories benefit from leading the country into a disaster and becoming unelectable? 

 

The tories are only only interested in profits and greed. How do they benefit from losing power and shit economy with no profits.

 

As you said your the ranting father jack. 

 

Something has happened you don’t like and your lashing old name calling and wishing old people dead lol.

 

Its dogma to them. Utter adherence to leaving the EU with a Canada style deal.

 

Business doesn't necessarily want that. But the EU has said the benefits of membership cannot be given to those not in the Customs Union or Single Market. So we will be worse off.  The Chancellor is pleading in his speeches for banks and financial bodies to get passporting rights to allow them to continue unrestricted trade in the EU so they don't leave and take their jobs to Frankfurt or Paris.

 

But the Brexiteers are dogmatically against the EU in all forms regardless of outcomes from that position.

[JamboX2]

12 hours ago, John Findlay said:

I see this thread has gone a bit quiet now that the divisions about Brexit in the labour party have come to the fore and, it turns out(no surprise really) they are no different from the Tory party.

 

 

 

Pro-Customs Union. And slowly tacking towards membership of the Single Market. Good enough for me.

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

 

Pro-Customs Union. And slowly tacking towards membership of the Single Market. Good enough for me.

 

So effectively staying in the EU> Aye that's democracy! Not!!

[Boris]

24 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

So effectively staying in the EU> Aye that's democracy! Not!!

I guess it will be if they get elected though! 

[John Findlay]

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

 

Pro-Customs Union. And slowly tacking towards membership of the Single Market. Good enough for me.

Don't be so gullible.

[JamboX2]

38 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

So effectively staying in the EU> Aye that's democracy! Not!!

 

Having a customs union with the EU is not anti-Brexit. It's pro jobs and designed to protect our trade and retain an open border with Ireland to protect the Good Friday Agreement.

 

The point on the Single Market is maximum access to it.

 

Not the irrevocable withdrawal of the Tories with the myriad of consequences which follow.

[JamboX2]

22 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Don't be so gullible.

 

In what sense?

 

The Labour Party is Pro-Customs Union. I'm happy with that. 

 

It is not far enough for me. I'd still want the membership we had before June 2016's vote. Not some third party associate of the club, but in it. 

 

But in the world we live in CU is a huge boost for me.

 

The UK public is being very gullible here. As the Luxembourg PM has been quoted widely this week:

 

"When they (the UK) was in the EU, they wanted opt-outs. Now they are leaving the EU, they want opt-ins."

 

It's a huge muddle this situation. Farcical some might say.

Edited March 11, 2018 by JamboX2

[Seymour M Hersh]

30 minutes ago, Boris said:

I guess it will be if they get elected though! 

 

And that would be respecting the referendum result how exactly? Remember they said they would in their manifesto.

[Sraman]

17 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

And that would be respecting the referendum result how exactly? Remember they said they would in their manifesto.

 

"Of course we respect the referendum result. That's why, now we are in power, we have called for a further referendum on the same question."  Pretty easy really.

[John Findlay]

29 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

In what sense?

 

The Labour Party is Pro-Customs Union. I'm happy with that. 

 

It is not far enough for me. I'd still want the membership we had before June 2016's vote. Not some third party associate of the club, but in it. 

 

But in the world we live in CU is a huge boost for me.

 

The UK public is being very gullible here. As the Luxembourg PM has been quoted widely this week:

 

"When they (the UK) was in the EU, they wanted opt-outs. Now they are leaving the EU, they want opt-ins."

 

It's a huge muddle this situation. Farcical some might say.

Labour  won't have/do any better if given the chance(which middle England will deny them) if in government.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Is it dogma to them? Is it is it a dogma to any of other parties who have support for brexit?

 

Yes. But those ideologies are in positions of prominence in these parties. But as I've said, Brexit will happen. The real issue is how that shapes up. Personally, given the Trump administration, I'd rather we stayes close to the EU.

 

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Their current and previous leadership have all pretty much pro Europe as long as I can remember. These are hardly the actions of a party held down by anti EU dogma action. 

 

Whilst brexiteers hardly unique to the tories. Despite the picture being painted this really isn’t a party issue. FFS the ‘thick working class’ are hardly your typical Tory. 

 

Anyway, do you honestly think brexiteers believe they are leading the country into a abyss or do you think they believe is the best of the UK? 

 

No. But I think that people who've wanted something so much for so long can be naive and blind to the clear risks and hypocrisy of their position.

 

The Yes movement displayed that in barrel loads in 2014. And still do.

 

Brexiteers seem to think that things like squaring the requirements on the UK under the GFA or wanting access to EU markets on similar terms to now can be done easily. When blatantly they cannot.

 

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

We have no idea if it will be for better or worse. I don’t think it will be I hope I’m wrong and they’re right!

 

 

 

I think it'll be worse. But I hope its the least bad outcome.

 

We all want a good deal but we need a bit more reason, understanding and direction from the government. At the moment it feels a tad scatter gun with no end game.

 

 

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

Labour  won't have/do any better if given the chance(which middle England will deny them) if in government.

 

Then it's their peace to win. I think this process will fatally compromise the Tories. MPs pick the candidates that their members select. I can't see MPs going for a Mogg or the likes after the Brexit dust settles. That could split MPs and Members.

 

I agree this is a tough situation but at least Labour have a more nuanced and acceptable position to get parliamentary backing for a deal.

Edited March 11, 2018 by JamboX2

[Francis Albert]

Cheltenham Festival this week so the latest instalment of Project Fear (from the Mail on Sunday, anti-Brexit in contrast to its sister daily taking an opposite view) centres on the threat from EU sources that the freedom of movement of race horses between the UK, France and Ireland will not survive Brexit.

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

I guess this what is called a "nuanced" approach.

[JamboX2]

14 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Cheltenham Festival this week so the latest instalment of Project Fear (from the Mail on Sunday, anti-Brexit in contrast to its sister daily taking an opposite view) centres on the threat from EU sources that the freedom of movement of race horses between the UK, France and Ireland will not survive Brexit.

 

 

 

 

Well there'd be different regulations applying to the control of and transferring animals. So they would not be able to travel freely as they do now.

 

Nor will you going on holiday to Spain or Greece...

[Francis Albert]

34 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Well there'd be different regulations applying to the control of and transferring animals. So they would not be able to travel freely as they do now.

 

Nor will you going on holiday to Spain or Greece...

You mean it might be as difficult as going to the States? Worst experience recently in crossing borders was getting out of a chaotic Bordeaux airport on a flight to the UK. UK border control at Calais and Heathrow can be a bit of a pain too.

And as British Irish and French horses can travel to the US and Dubai and many other parts of the world (and in the other direction) I think it will not be an insuperable issue.

[JamboX2]

32 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

You mean it might be as difficult as going to the States? Worst experience recently in crossing borders was getting out of a chaotic Bordeaux airport on a flight to the UK. UK border control at Calais and Heathrow can be a bit of a pain too.

And as British Irish and French horses can travel to the US and Dubai and many other parts of the world (and in the other direction) I think it will not be an insuperable issue.

 

No it won't be an issue of world changing proportions if it takes a race horse longer getting from Limerick to Ascott. But there will be added costs in transit (permits and checks) for movement of it. Added administrative costs for both governments at the border for checking all this is in order and the added time.

 

In effect for everyone and thing coming into or leaving the UK for the EU it's going to be more expensive and time consuming. For what little benefits we gain from this I think the previous freedom to move goods, services and labour worked very well for all concerned.

[jake]

16 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Cheltenham Festival this week so the latest instalment of Project Fear (from the Mail on Sunday, anti-Brexit in contrast to its sister daily taking an opposite view) centres on the threat from EU sources that the freedom of movement of race horses between the UK, France and Ireland will not survive Brexit.

 

 

 

?

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

No it won't be an issue of world changing proportions if it takes a race horse longer getting from Limerick to Ascott. But there will be added costs in transit (permits and checks) for movement of it. Added administrative costs for both governments at the border for checking all this is in order and the added time.

 

In effect for everyone and thing coming into or leaving the UK for the EU it's going to be more expensive and time consuming. For what little benefits we gain from this I think the previous freedom to move goods, services and labour worked very well for all concerned.

When I travel to an EU country I have to show my passport on leaving and entering the UK. Exactly as I did before we joined the EU and as I do when visiting a non-EU country. The only difference the so called free movement of people makes to me is that it would probably be easier for me to go to work and live in another EU country ... but since like 99% of the UK population I have no intention of doing so that doesn't affect me.

Remainers should realise that Project Fear with its nonsensical exaggerations (threat to the free movement of race horses indeed!) is counterproductive. . I was mildly pro-Remain despite my very low opinion of the EU as an institution (and mildly pro-No in the case of the Indyref) but in each case the absurdities of the respective  Project Fears made me inclined to hope the outcome was Leave and Yes.

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Francis Albert

[JamboX2]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

When I travel to an EU country I have to show my passport on leaving and entering the UK. Exactly as I did before we joined the EU and as I do when visiting a non-EU country. The only difference the so called free movement of people makes to me is that it would probably be easier for me to go to work and live in another EU country ... but since like 99% of the UK population I have no intention of doing so that doesn't affect me.

Remainers should realise that Project Fear with its nonsensical exaggerations (threat to the free movement of race horses indeed!) is counterproductive. . I was mildly pro-Remain despite my very low opinion of the EU as an institution (and mildly pro-No in the case of the Indyref) but in each case the absurdities of the respective  Project Fears made me inclined to hope the outcome was Leave and Yes.

 

 

An odd view of things imo. If faced with facts and the current ease of things then making that harder is to me counterproductive. In both cases you mention.

 

Like I say this stuff isn't the end of the world. But it is the beginnings of making things harder for people to trade and move easily between us and our neighbours.

 

Afterall if you're a business would you rather a market of 5 million, 65 million or nearer 300 million? The EU offered huge markets for British businesses to trade in.

 

We're now limiting those options hugely by moving to a less advantageous position out with that market.

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

When I travel to an EU country I have to show my passport on leaving and entering the UK. Exactly as I did before we joined the EU and as I do when visiting a non-EU country. The only difference the so called free movement of people makes to me is that it would probably be easier for me to go to work and live in another EU country ... but since like 99% of the UK population I have no intention of doing so that doesn't affect me.

Remainers should realise that Project Fear with its nonsensical exaggerations (threat to the free movement of race horses indeed!) is counterproductive. . I was mildly pro-Remain despite my very low opinion of the EU as an institution (and mildly pro-No in the case of the Indyref) but in each case the absurdities of the respective  Project Fears made me inclined to hope the outcome was Leave and Yes.

 

 

I think that you show your passport because the UK is not a Schenegen agreement country.  So if you were travelling between France and Germany, for example, you wouldn't need to show your passport.  So you are right in that due to the UK opt out, the freedom of movement would make it easier to live and work in an EU member country.  

 

Regards the race horse thing, I guess it's like everything else where at the moment we have procedures/standards/regulations in place due to EU membership.  Once we leave, we need to negotiate and agree to new ones with the EU and every other country on Earth.  Now this may all be agreed smoothly, but there is no harm in highlighting the potential scenarios that could happen if our government doesn't pull its collective digit out of its posterior.

 

I get your cynicism towards "project fear", and where it is rightly exposed as cobblers, but there are certain legalities that we have to adhere to and I can't help but feel our inept government are winging this in an "it'll be alright on the night" sort of vibe and will ****** this up.

[Ulysses]

9 hours ago, Boris said:

 

I think that you show your passport because the UK is not a Schenegen agreement country.  So if you were travelling between France and Germany, for example, you wouldn't need to show your passport.  So you are right in that due to the UK opt out, the freedom of movement would make it easier to live and work in an EU member country.  

 

Regards the race horse thing, I guess it's like everything else where at the moment we have procedures/standards/regulations in place due to EU membership.  Once we leave, we need to negotiate and agree to new ones with the EU and every other country on Earth.  Now this may all be agreed smoothly, but there is no harm in highlighting the potential scenarios that could happen if our government doesn't pull its collective digit out of its posterior.

 

I get your cynicism towards "project fear", and where it is rightly exposed as cobblers, but there are certain legalities that we have to adhere to and I can't help but feel our inept government are winging this in an "it'll be alright on the night" sort of vibe and will ****** this up.

 

What I can't understand is why anyone would blame the EU for the screw-up around horse breeding, transport, training and racing.  The UK have caused the problem, and it will probably be the French, the Irish and the EU who will have to figure out how to fix it, and then sit down and work out some kind of implementation plan with the people who caused the problem in the first place.  Now the chances are that we will, because we have a track record of getting stuff like this fixed, but it will take time, energy, negotiations and paperwork to get it done.  It is an example (one among thousands) of the kind of thing that has to be analysed, worked out and agreed at the micro level when you don't have a single market or a customs union, but which is completely easy to sort out when you do.

 

Put it like this.  The equestrian industry knows it will have a problem after Brexit unless action is taken.  Does your government?  And what about every other sector that depends on supply chain links into and out of the EU?  Has your government worked out what to do?  What they want?  What the problems are?  Which problems they want fixed in their "pick and choose" trade deal?  Which problems they are prepared to live with?  What concessions they are prepared to make to get they fixes they want?

[Boris]

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

What I can't understand is why anyone would blame the EU for the screw-up around horse breeding, transport, training and racing.  The UK have caused the problem, and it will probably be the French, the Irish and the EU who will have to figure out how to fix it, and then sit down and work out some kind of implementation plan with the people who caused the problem in the first place.  Now the chances are that we will, because we have a track record of getting stuff like this fixed, but it will take time, energy, negotiations and paperwork to get it done.  It is an example (one among thousands) of the kind of thing that has to be analysed, worked out and agreed at the micro level when you don't have a single market or a customs union, but which is completely easy to sort out when you do.

 

Put it like this.  The equestrian industry knows it will have a problem after Brexit unless action is taken.  Does your government?  And what about every other sector that depends on supply chain links into and out of the EU?  Has your government worked out what to do?  What they want?  What the problems are?  Which problems they want fixed in their "pick and choose" trade deal?  Which problems they are prepared to live with?  What concessions they are prepared to make to get they fixes they want?

Oh, you are bang on! I don't think HMG has a clue on what it needs to do!

 

as for blaming the EU, that will be the line trotted out by our government and our media, "cleverly" missing the point that this is self inflicted by the "will of the people".

Edited March 13, 2018 by Boris