Hard Brexit

[Francis Albert]

20 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

The Scottish Fishing Industry voted for Brexit and Vote Conservative - They have shot themselves in the foot.

 

They have voted to leave their biggest market and now they wont have any control over fishing rules for UK waters.

They have a history of self harm though - overfishing the stocks their livliehoods depended on and selling licences to the Spanish

 

Until 2020. Whether they make better use of that control is another question.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Aye Spacey - As in football there is a bit of an East / West split

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

Aye Spacey - As in football there is a bit of an East / West split

 

Ruth Davidson and her puppets along with Mis-Reporting Scotland would make the most uniformed people believe otherwise though.

[scott herbertson]

45 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The russians may have tried to kill a russian traitor in salisbury (i am not wholly convinced) but if they did it is hardly equivalent to the annexation of the Sudetenland.

 

 

You know now I don’t think those actions are equivalent. I missed out the linking bit  about the Crimea as this iPad is driving me potty when I type with its stupid autocorrect function!

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

You know now I don’t think those actions are equivalent. I missed out the linking bit  about the Crimea as this iPad is driving me potty when I type with its stupid autocorrect function!

I am with you 100% on autocorrect. And that other abomination predictive texting.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Space Mackerel]

Every single Scottish fishing community voted to Remain. 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Every single Scottish fishing community voted to Remain. 

 

 

And the great fishing community of London did too.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

And the great fishing community of London did too.

 

 

Eels are a delicacy there.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

Every single Scottish fishing community voted to Remain. 

 

 

 

Voted No as well. Democracy - Yay!

[jake]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

And the great fishing community of London did too.

?

[scott herbertson]

4 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

Eels are a disgusting slimy fishy thing eaten there.

 

FTFY

[Space Mackerel]

7 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Voted No as well. Democracy - Yay!

 

Guess what, no ones arguing with the 2014 referendum result. 

 

It almost like the next one though, is going to be one you’ll be arguing about

[Space Mackerel]

4 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

 

FTFY

 

Smoked yins are alright. 

[JamboX2]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Guess what, no ones arguing with the 2014 referendum result. 

 

It almost like the next one though, is going to be one you’ll be arguing about

 

Was more a joke at how democracy throws up conflicting results. 2016. SNP government. 2017 21 MPs ejected at Westminster.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Was more a joke at how democracy throws up conflicting results. 2016. SNP government. 2017 21 MPs ejected at Westminster.

 

Arguably the vagries of the differing electoral systems were a factor there.

[Cade]

UK firm that makes the burgundy UK passports is set to lose the £490million contract for the new (old) blue passports to a French/Dutch firm.

 

 

[Ulysses]

On 3/22/2018 at 10:11, Cade said:

UK firm that makes the burgundy UK passports is set to lose the £490million contract for the new (old) blue passports to a French/Dutch firm.

 

 

 

I see they've released a sneak preview of the design:

 

 

[Ulysses]

 

[Ulysses]

 

[Ulysses]

 

[Ulysses]

 

[Ulysses]

 

[Boris]

[Cade]

David Trimble (Tory life peer, former First Minister, Nobel prize winner and one of the architects of the Good Friday Agreement) has said that the Irish border question may ignite Loyalist paramilitaries.

 

No shit, Sherlock.

 

Slowly, cold hard reality is dawning on these Brexit fanatic pricks.

[jake]

35 minutes ago, Cade said:

David Trimble (Tory life peer, former First Minister, Nobel prize winner and one of the architects of the Good Friday Agreement) has said that the Irish border question may ignite Loyalist paramilitaries.

 

No shit, Sherlock.

 

Slowly, cold hard reality is dawning on these Brexit fanatic pricks.

Did you actually read what he said or did you just read the guardian headlines.

 

He if you care to actually read it questioned the Irish government.

 

The UK held a vote.

You calling people names like an angry spotty atypical little antifa won't change minds.

 

Laughable

[jake]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Please tell me you didn't find these funny or in anyway decent political satire.

 

Please .

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

 

 

Please tell me you didn't find these funny or in anyway decent political satire.

 

Please .

I do. Because it highlights how stupid the govt is handling Brexit. 

 

Works for me. 

[jake]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

I do. Because it highlights how stupid the govt is handling Brexit. 

 

Works for me. 

Oh come on.

 

I grew up with spitting image and Ben Elton .

 

Sorry Uly and Boris but that's total gash

[Francis Albert]

I don't know if it has been mentioned on here but I recently read an interview with the Irish writer Colm Toibin who is anti-Brexit as you would expect. Surprisingly but to his credit he came to the defence of Boris Johnson for his much ridiculed assertion that the Irish border question need, post-Brexit, be no more complicated than the border between the London boroughs of Westminster and Camden. The Congestion Charge means that anyone driving into central London across a  myriad of borders geographically much more complex than the Irish border and much more heavily used is monitored,  and required to pay a hefty penalty if they have not gone through the process of paying the Charge, all achieved by a simple and not hugely expensive "technical solution"

The EU and the Irish Government's attempt to use the threat of a return of the gunmen is (IMO not Colm's) as a negotiating tactic and as a means of semi-detaching the North from the UK is pretty disgraceful.

(David Trimble, one of the architects of the Friday Agreement has also said he doesn't see the border issue as a threat tp the peace process and that the border did not feature in the Good Friday negotiations or the final agreement).

 

(Sorry I don't have a cartoon to accompany my post).

[Ulysses]

44 minutes ago, Boris said:

I do. Because it highlights how stupid the govt is handling Brexit. 

 

Works for me. 

 

Yep, and it's got pictures.  What's not to like? 

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

(Sorry I don't have a cartoon to accompany my post).

 

 

So am I.  **** knows the post needed something. 

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

I do. Because it highlights how stupid the govt is handling Brexit. 

 

Works for me. 

 

Yep.

 

FAO Francis: the Good Friday Agreement requires identical economic conditions north and south of the border. That's the only way there can be a soft border. The only way that could be retained is through either NI remaining in the customs union, or the whole of the UK remaining in it. But:

2. Hard Brexiteers will not consent to the UK remaining in the customs union. And the DUP, propping up the government, will also not consent to any arrangements for NI which differ from those of the mainland UK.

3. If there were a customs union and soft border, how in the world would freedom of movement be curtailed without a hard border between NI and the mainland UK?

4. If there's no customs union and a hard border, watch what that does to trade in NI - and that's what would destroy the peace process. Not only that, but:

5. Northern Ireland voted convincingly to stay in the EU. And:

6. If NI were given bespoke, special arrangements, Scotland, quite rightly, would want the same.

 

The response of Brexiteers and the UK government to all of this?

 

2016: The Irish border is not a problem.

2017: The Irish border can be fixed by magic unicorns.

2018: The evil EU and scheming, expansionist Irish are the problem because they don't believe in magic unicorns.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Yep.

 

FAO Francis: the Good Friday Agreement requires identical economic conditions north and south of the border. That's the only way there can be a soft border. The only way that could be retained is through either NI remaining in the customs union, or the whole of the UK remaining in it. But:

2. Hard Brexiteers will not consent to the UK remaining in the customs union. And the DUP, propping up the government, will also not consent to any arrangements for NI which differ from those of the mainland UK.

3. If there were a customs union and soft border, how in the world would freedom of movement be curtailed without a hard border between NI and the mainland UK?

4. If there's no customs union and a hard border, watch what that does to trade in NI - and that's what would destroy the peace process. Not only that, but:

5. Northern Ireland voted convincingly to stay in the EU. And: For " Hard Brexiters"

6. If NI were given bespoke, special arrangements, Scotland, quite rightly, would want the same.

 

The response of Brexiteers and the UK government to all of this?

 

2016: The Irish border is not a problem.

2017: The Irish border can be fixed by magic unicorns.

2018: The evil EU and scheming, expansionist Irish are the problem because they don't believe in magic unicorns.

Thanks Shaun. Always good to have a response in words. I am a great believer in "a word is worth a thousand pictures", I am not sure if "a word is worth a million ROFL emoticons is  current but ...

 

Taking your points in turn

 

1.Your argument falls at the first hurdle. There are not and never have been "identical economic conditions" north and south of the border, The Good Friday Agreement didn't guarantee that. (I must admit like almost everyone I have yet to get round to reading it but if there was a breach of the agreement it would surely have been invoked by now).

2. For "Hard Brexiters" (that wonderful Remainer invention of what "Brexiter" means) that remains to be seen. The DUP is entitled indeed obliged by their democratic mandate to not consent to such arrangements 

3 "  Freedom of movement of peoples"  between Ireland and the UK existed centuries before the EU existed. (Admittedly  it wasn't always exactly "free".)  But there is no reason why it should not exist after the UK leaves the EU.

4. A so called "hard border" does not prevent trade between Norway and Sweden and between (for example) Switzerland and Germany  and in the latter case tens of thousands of Germans commuting daily to Swiss cities such as Basel.

 

"Magic unicorns" ... come on you can do better than that, You will be posting pictures and ROFL emoticons next.

[Ulysses]

^^^^

 

Never been to Switzerland.  NAP.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Ulysses

[shaun.lawson]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Thanks Shaun. Always good to have a response in words. I am a great believer in "a word is worth a thousand pictures", I am not sure if "a word is worth a million ROFL emoticons is  current but ...

 

Taking your points in turn

 

1.Your argument falls at the first hurdle. There are not and never have been "identical economic conditions" north and south of the border, The Good Friday Agreement didn't guarantee that. (I must admit like almost everyone I have yet to get round to reading it but if there was a breach of the agreement it would surely have been invoked by now).

2. For "Hard Brexiters" (that wonderful Remainer invention of what "Brexiter" means) that remains to be seen. The DUP is entitled indeed obliged by their democratic mandate to not consent to such arrangements 

3 "  Freedom of movement of peoples"  between Ireland and the UK existed centuries before the EU existed. (Admittedly  it wasn't always exactly "free".)  But there is no reason why it should not exist after the UK leaves the EU.

4. A so called "hard border" does not prevent trade between Norway and Sweden and between (for example) Switzerland and Germany  and in the latter case tens of thousands of Germans commuting daily to Swiss cities such as Basel.

 

"Magic unicorns" ... come on you can do better than that, You will be posting pictures and ROFL emoticons next.

 

1/2. Of course, I meant "economic conditions which are as identical as possible". For example: no tariffs on one side of the border, no tariffs on the other. A soft border which goods and people travel across freely with no issue at all. But all that's about to change - because leaving the customs union will mean tariffs. The only way around that is either not to leave it, or to create our own one with the EU.

 

3. There's every reason it can't exist after we leave the EU. Free movement of peoples between Ireland and the UK will continue - but free movement of peoples between the EU (of which Ireland is a member) and the UK won't? Good luck with that. The only way of enforcing the latter is a hard border: either between Ireland and Northern Ireland (a disaster for the peace process) or between the island of Ireland and Britain (which the DUP will never sign up to).

 

4. As members of EFTA, Norway and Switzerland are signed up to free movement of peoples - it's just that outside the EU, they have no say. 

 

And that's what I meant by "magic unicorns", Francis. At no stage during the referendum campaign was it ever pointed out by anyone that the have our cake and eat it approach does not exist. Frighteningly, it's still not being pointed out by either the Tories or by Labour. That makes us, abundantly deservedly, a laughing stock across Europe; and Irish politicians and commentators can scarcely believe what they're watching.

 

If we want to be in the single market, we have to sign up to freedom of movement. If we don't want freedom of movement, that means tariffs: which undermine the Good Friday Agreement, profoundly alter the economic relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic, impoverish the UK, and necessarily mean a hard border. 

 

That you've not grasped this appears to be because, well, you've started believing in unicorns too.  

Edited April 7, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[jake]

16 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Yep, and it's got pictures.  What's not to like? 

It's totally shit Uly.

That's what's not to like.

 

There's just no other way to describe it.

?

[JamboX2]

18 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

18 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

18 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

These were an absolute brilliant read. Saw them on Twitter yesterday. Very good.

[JamboX2]

12 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Thanks Shaun. Always good to have a response in words. I am a great believer in "a word is worth a thousand pictures", I am not sure if "a word is worth a million ROFL emoticons is  current but ...

 

Taking your points in turn

 

1.Your argument falls at the first hurdle. There are not and never have been "identical economic conditions" north and south of the border, The Good Friday Agreement didn't guarantee that. (I must admit like almost everyone I have yet to get round to reading it but if there was a breach of the agreement it would surely have been invoked by now).

2. For "Hard Brexiters" (that wonderful Remainer invention of what "Brexiter" means) that remains to be seen. The DUP is entitled indeed obliged by their democratic mandate to not consent to such arrangements 

3 "  Freedom of movement of peoples"  between Ireland and the UK existed centuries before the EU existed. (Admittedly  it wasn't always exactly "free".)  But there is no reason why it should not exist after the UK leaves the EU.

4. A so called "hard border" does not prevent trade between Norway and Sweden and between (for example) Switzerland and Germany  and in the latter case tens of thousands of Germans commuting daily to Swiss cities such as Basel.

 

"Magic unicorns" ... come on you can do better than that, You will be posting pictures and ROFL emoticons next.

 

Except the deal between Norway and the EU means that any items sourced out with the EU must be subject to customs if entering via Norwegian ports. Norway forms it's own trade deals (where it wants) with nations around the globe. The issue with goods arriving via Norway is they are subject to customs control when crossing the Swedish or by sea the Danish borders. 

 

In effect the same would apply for Northern Ireland. Goods from Brazil would be subject to checks when crossing the Irish border. Meaning customs. Meaning hardware on the border. Meaning a hard border.

 

The Government needs to be more upfront on the clear contradictions of the Leave campaign. By all means enact Brexit. But at the same time tell people they're not getting what Leave and all it's prominent faces told them they'd get.

 

The frustration for many of us is this is doublespeak of near Orwellian proportions guided by incompetent ministers making a monkey of our country.

[JamboX2]

18 hours ago, Cade said:

David Trimble (Tory life peer, former First Minister, Nobel prize winner and one of the architects of the Good Friday Agreement) has said that the Irish border question may ignite Loyalist paramilitaries.

 

No shit, Sherlock.

 

Slowly, cold hard reality is dawning on these Brexit fanatic pricks.

 

Don't think Trimble was pro-Brexit. The UUP are much much more moderate than the DUP. Issue is moderate voices are being drowned out by fanatics on both sides - in NI this is no more true than the collpase of the UUP and SDLP to be replaced by the DUP and SF. 

 

Trimble - imo - is a voice which should he listened to and given a bit of weight. It was he who pushed for the Peace Process and dragged his party behind him and some paramilitaries to the table. It's the Dodds and Fosters which need replaced.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, jake said:

It's totally shit Uly.

That's what's not to like.

 

There's just no other way to describe it.

?

 

Ah jake, you need to stop worrying about what other people think of you.  It's making you ill-tempered, and that's not good.

 

It's got pictures, jake.  They're not moving pictures, but they're pictures all the same.  Just look at the pictures and you'll be super happy.

 

[Ulysses]

10 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

4. As members of EFTA, Norway and Switzerland are signed up to free movement of peoples - it's just that outside the EU, they have no say. 

 

 

Ah wait, you're surely not suggesting that yet again FA has made one of his Percy Sudgen arguments for Brexit without bothering his arse to read and understand the issues involved?

[shaun.lawson]

5 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Ah wait, you're surely not suggesting that yet again FA has made one of his Percy Sudgen arguments for Brexit without bothering his arse to read and understand the issues involved?

 

To be fair, he'd have that in common with 52% of the British electorate.

 

I can't get over the idea that Switzerland has a hard border though. Switzerland.  

[jake]

23 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

To be fair, he'd have that in common with 52% of the British electorate.

 

I can't get over the idea that Switzerland has a hard border though. Switzerland. 

He voted remain .

 

Perhaps we should all bow to your snobbish coffee sipping socialism.

After all what a bunch of ignorant racist thickos we are.

 

 

I'm away to look at Ulys pictures because your posts are fekin annoying .

[shaun.lawson]

21 minutes ago, jake said:

He voted remain .

 

Perhaps we should all bow to your snobbish coffee sipping socialism.

After all what a bunch of ignorant racist thickos we are.

 

 

I'm away to look at Ulys pictures because your posts are fekin annoying .

 

Astoundingly few voters gave the remotest thought to Northern Ireland and the Irish border when voting. I don't think NI was ever seriously mentioned at any point during the laughable, fraudulent, mendacious, disgraceful campaign. Did you give any thought to it? 

 

Oh, and to give two examples among many, Welsh people voting to make themselves much poorer and Sunderland voters voting to make themselves much poorer are thick. Breathtakingly thick. They've made their own lives worse, the lives of their families worse, the lives of their friends worse, the lives of local businesses worse. And for what? Bendy ****ing bananas? That is the definition of thick. 

 

"I'm so unhappy with the status quo that I'm going to set myself on fire to protest". Ridiculous. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[shaun.lawson]

19 minutes ago, jake said:

After all what a bunch of ignorant racist thickos we are.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

To be fair, he'd have that in common with 52% of the British electorate.

 

I can't get over the idea that Switzerland has a hard border though. Switzerland.  

Sorry shaun  i shouldn't have used the term hard border which like hard brexit means different things to different people. As you.know Switzerland is 

not in the customs union so customs controls still exist at its borders with the EU.

[Geoff the Mince]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Astoundingly few voters gave the remotest thought to Northern Ireland and the Irish border when voting. I don't think NI was ever seriously mentioned at any point during the laughable, fraudulent, mendacious, disgraceful campaign. Did you give any thought to it? 

 

Oh, and to give two examples among many, Welsh people voting to make themselves much poorer and Sunderland voters voting to make themselves much poorer are thick. Breathtakingly thick. They've made their own lives worse, the lives of their families worse, the lives of their friends worse, the lives of local businesses worse. And for what? Bendy ****ing bananas? That is the definition of thick. 

 

"I'm so unhappy with the status quo that I'm going to set myself on fire to protest". Ridiculous. 

The problem is Shaun very few knew how Brexit would affect their lives ,

 

It was a blind vote if you like . 

[The Comedian]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Astoundingly few voters gave the remotest thought to Northern Ireland and the Irish border when voting. I don't think NI was ever seriously mentioned at any point during the laughable, fraudulent, mendacious, disgraceful campaign. Did you give any thought to it? 

 

Oh, and to give two examples among many, Welsh people voting to make themselves much poorer and Sunderland voters voting to make themselves much poorer are thick. Breathtakingly thick. They've made their own lives worse, the lives of their families worse, the lives of their friends worse, the lives of local businesses worse. And for what? Bendy ****ing bananas? That is the definition of thick. 

 

"I'm so unhappy with the status quo that I'm going to set myself on fire to protest". Ridiculous. 

 

Is it actually possible to leave the EU in your view?

 

With such insurmountable challenges (as some see it) it's not right that a nation is essentially trapped in it.

[Cade]

13 minutes ago, The Comedian said:

 

Is it actually possible to leave the EU in your view?

 

With such insurmountable challenges (as some see it) it's not right that a nation is essentially trapped in it.

The UK trapped itself in it (or at the very least ruled out a hard Brexit) with the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

[shaun.lawson]

51 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

The problem is Shaun very few knew how Brexit would affect their lives ,

 

It was a blind vote if you like . 

 

I agree completely. Yet try making that very simple point - none of us were qualified to make a decision of this magnitude - and it's "you calling us thick?" Dictators love referenda for a reason.