Hard Brexit

[Don Dan]

Good statement to be fair. Told them to back off with the disrespectful comments and explain why you don’t agree with the proposal and offer an alternative.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Dannie Boy

[Cade]

"I haven't got a clue what I'm doing and we have no idea how to solve the Northern Ireland question so someone please help me"

 

 

 

STRONG AND STABLE

[frankblack]

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

"I haven't got a clue what I'm doing and we have no idea how to solve the Northern Ireland question so someone please help me"

 

 

 

STRONG AND STABLE

 

The NI problem is up to the EU to propose a solution as a hard border isn't on the table.

 

If they don't have one just say so and we can leave now with no deal.

Edited September 21, 2018 by frankblack

[Francis Albert]

59 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

Honourable in that he gave 'Brexit' the chance to have a Brexit leader. Cameron didn't want Brexit, he openly campaigned against and predicted nothing but doom if it came about. Him staying on was never an option.

Ermm. We got another remain leader!

[Pans Jambo]

19 minutes ago, Cade said:

"I haven't got a clue what I'm doing and we have no idea how to solve the Northern Ireland question so someone please help me"

 

 

 

STRONG AND STABLE

That was it!

Also, Sterling falling all the while she was yakkin oan!

[Ibrahim Tall]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Ermm. We got another remain leader!

 

Hardly Camerons fault, that's who the Torys voted for. 

[Cade]

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The NI problem is up to the EU to propose a solution as a hard border isn't on the table.

 

If they don't have one just say so and we can leave now with no deal.

How is it up the EU to solve OUR problem?

 

The UK has unilaterally decided to leave the EU and also decided that closing the borders is the only option.

 

But closing the borders would break the UN registered, legally binding peace treaty in Northern Ireland.

 

So again, how is that the EU's problem to solve?

 

Brexit loons decided to ignore NI and are paying the price for not thinking things through.

[Cruyff Turn]

Theresa May, may as well just resign now. 

 

These are are just parts  of the Good Friday Agreement which must be retained under all circumstances.

 

Remember that the UK Government want to do away with The European Convention of Human Rights and Freedom of Movement.

 

Yet in the Good Friday Agreement it states: 

 

“The British government committed to incorporate the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) into the law of Northern Ireland-and to the establishment of a Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission.”

 

and,

 

“Irrespective of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland, the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both" (as well as their right to hold either or both Britishand/or Irish citizenship) was recognised. By the words "people of Northern Ireland" the Agreement meant "all persons born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence."

 

N.Irish citizens have the right to be EU Citizens as long as Ireland is in the EU and restrictions cannot be placed on their freedom of movement.

 

So they can’t implement either on Northern Ireland or it’s Citizens without breaking all Devolution Settlements across the UK or possibly breaking a 20 year old ceasefire. 

[Francis Albert]

The Guardian and other Remain supporters exulting over the "humiliation" of the British Prime Minister by EU leaders.

If it comes to a second referendum I have a funny feeling that just might backfire.

[Space Mackerel]

This made us laugh.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

18 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Theresa May, may as well just resign now. 

 

These are are just parts  of the Good Friday Agreement which must be retained under all circumstances.

 

Remember that the UK Government want to do away with The European Convention of Human Rights and Freedom of Movement.

 

Yet in the Good Friday Agreement it states: 

 

“The British government committed to incorporate the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) into the law of Northern Ireland-and to the establishment of a Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission.”

 

and,

 

“Irrespective of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland, the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both" (as well as their right to hold either or both Britishand/or Irish citizenship) was recognised. By the words "people of Northern Ireland" the Agreement meant "all persons born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence."

 

N.Irish citizens have the right to be EU Citizens as long as Ireland is in the EU and restrictions cannot be placed on their freedom of movement.

 

So they can’t implement either on Northern Ireland or it’s Citizens without breaking all Devolution Settlements across the UK or possibly breaking a 20 year old ceasefire. 

I am obviously not a constitutional lawyer but I am not clear how any of the above would necessarily conflict with some form of border control.

Nor does it commit the UK to remaining bound by the ECHR.

Nor as far as I am aware has the UK proposed denying the right of people in Northern Ireland to hold EU citizenship.

And of course freedom of movement between within the island of Ireland and indeed between Ireland and the UK existed long before the EU existed and the UK has not suggested stopping it.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

This made us laugh.

 

 

Political discourse at its finest.

Without the merit of being remotely funny.

[frankblack]

16 minutes ago, Cade said:

How is it up the EU to solve OUR problem?

 

The UK has unilaterally decided to leave the EU and also decided that closing the borders is the only option.

 

But closing the borders would break the UN registered, legally binding peace treaty in Northern Ireland.

 

So again, how is that the EU's problem to solve?

 

Brexit loons decided to ignore NI and are paying the price for not thinking things through.

 

It is the problem of the EU because the UK, which for the hard of thinking includes Northern Ireland voted to leave.  It is the EU who need to show flexibility here to maintain the open border for protecting peace in Ireland.

 

We leave with or without a deal, and what is their plan for the Irish border if no deal?

[Boris]

16 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Good statement to be fair. Told them to back off with the disrespectful comments and explain why you don’t agree with the proposal and offer an alternative.

 

Probably down to what the EU have always said about the four freedoms and cherry picking.  If anything, the EU has been consistent.

 

 

[Cade]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It is the problem of the EU because the UK, which for the hard of thinking includes Northern Ireland voted to leave.  It is the EU who need to show flexibility here to maintain the open border for protecting peace in Ireland.

 

We leave with or without a deal, and what is their plan for the Irish border if no deal?

 

We voted to leave without any plans as to how to deal with the NI border.

That's 100% our problem.

The EU is not going to change their rules on external borders just to appease a handful of religious lunatics in the DUP.

Get real.

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

We voted to leave without any plans as to how to deal with the NI border.

That's 100% our problem.

The EU is not going to change their rules on external borders just to appease a handful of religious lunatics in the DUP.

Get real.

 

You don't seem to get it that this is a negotiation, and both sides have to agree.  All we have is the EU saying No to everything to try and force the UK to remain.

 

We are leaving whether the EU likes it or not, its time for the remoaners to accept the reality.

[Francis Albert]

28 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Probably down to what the EU have always said about the four freedoms and cherry picking.  If anything, the EU has been consistent.

 

 

Consistent as in intransigent.

Entering a negotiation while being unprepared to give an inch could be described as not acting in good faith.

Various EU leaders had described the Chequers proposals as encouraging or positive.

They then collectively tell the UK to **** Off without proffering any counterproposal or any movement in their position.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Boris]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

You don't seem to get it that this is a negotiation, and both sides have to agree.  All we have is the EU saying No to everything to try and force the UK to remain.

 

We are leaving whether the EU likes it or not, its time for the remoaners to accept the reality.

 

No one is doubting we are leaving, but it's disengenous for the UK government to expect the EU to bend to their whims. 

 

As I posted earlir, we leave the EU but remain in EEA/EFTA (Norway/Switzerland model) but that's not good enough for some Brexiteers.  Well the EU ain't gonna shift, and why should they?

 

The UK is behaving like a spoilt brat, but (and again I mentioned this previously) the narrative will run that it is the EU to blame for the UK not getting the deal it wants.

 

But then maybe that was the plan all along.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Consistent as in intransigent.

Entering a negotiation while being unprepared to give an inch could be described as not acting in good faith.

Various EU leaders had described the Chequers proposals as encouraging or positive.

They then collectively tell the UK to **** Off without any counterproposal.

 

It's the UK leaving, why should the EU table a counter proposal, especially since they have been consistent all the way through regards the four freedoms/integrity of the single market?

 

Seems to me it is the UK government being intransigent.

[Cade]

It's like talking to a brick wall.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

It's the UK leaving, why should the EU table a counter proposal, especially since they have been consistent all the way through regards the four freedoms/integrity of the single market?

 

Seems to me it is the UK government being intransigent.

In a negotiation it is normal when one side moves (as the UK has done, well beyond what some Brexiteers see as acceptable) it is normal for the other side to respond with more than "our position remains what it has always been". But of course the EU is perfectly entitled to be intransigent if it chooses. It would be decent of it not to maintain the pretence it is negotiating.

 

 

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

In a negotiation it is normal when one side moves (as the UK has done, well beyond what some Brexiteers see as acceptable) it is normal for the other side to respond with more than "our position remains what it has always been". But of course the EU is perfectly entitled to be intransigent if it chooses. It would be decent of it not to maintain the pretence it is negotiating.

 

 

 

I believe that it is negotiating though.

 

What seems to be irking you is that the EU isn't folding on its red lines.  Similarly, the UK is not folding on its.

 

Stalemate, I think.

 

If the will of the people is so important in all of this, maybe the PM should ask them what they think?

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

No one is doubting we are leaving, but it's disengenous for the UK government to expect the EU to bend to their whims. 

 

As I posted earlir, we leave the EU but remain in EEA/EFTA (Norway/Switzerland model) but that's not good enough for some Brexiteers.  Well the EU ain't gonna shift, and why should they?

 

The UK is behaving like a spoilt brat, but (and again I mentioned this previously) the narrative will run that it is the EU to blame for the UK not getting the deal it wants.

 

But then maybe that was the plan all along.

 

Up until yesterday, the EU 27 believed that the UK, notwithstanding its previous Keystone Cops approach to Brexit, had finally gotten its act together. 

 

Most of the work on an agreement has been done in the background. However the British government was not making good on its promise to put words on its agreement last year to avoid a hard border at the land frontier.  The EU 27 knew this would be a problem, and even worked on some text in an effort to "de-dramatise" the issue.

 

The EU 27 were not expecting results this side of the Conservative conference. However they did expect the British government to live up to the commitment it gave to present clear proposals on the border issue before the October summit.

 

When the British government said it would not deliver what it committed to delivering - in a bilateral meeting between the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach - the EU 27 saw that as clear evidence that the British government is not going to work constructively on the border issue, and will either do nothing or else play for time in some kind of game of brinkmanship.

 

The failure of the UK to live up to its own commitment on the border issue is highly disrespectful.  It is disrespectful to the EU 27.  It is disrespectful to Ireland.  And it is disrespectful to those citizens of the UK who are being ignored by the British government because it has favoured one community over the other in NI.

 

The EU 27 had some prospect - probably quite a decent chance - of muddling through to a solution as long as the UK acted decently, respectfully and responsibly.  Once it became clear that the UK would not even deliver what it committed to delivering in October it is genuinely very difficult to see how else the EU 27 could have responded last night. 

 

It's all very well trying to pin this on personalities and national politics, but the reality is that when the other 26 governments were briefed on the bilateral meeting between May and Varadkar, even the UK's closest allies in the 27 had nothing positive to say.

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Up until yesterday, the EU 27 believed that the UK, notwithstanding its previous Keystone Cops approach to Brexit, had finally gotten its act together. 

 

Most of the work on an agreement has been done in the background. However the British government was not making good on its promise to put words on its agreement last year to avoid a hard border at the land frontier.  The EU 27 knew this would be a problem, and even worked on some text in an effort to "de-dramatise" the issue.

 

The EU 27 were not expecting results this side of the Conservative conference. However they did expect the British government to live up to the commitment it gave to present clear proposals on the border issue before the October summit.

 

When the British government said it would not deliver what it committed to delivering - in a bilateral meeting between the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach - the EU 27 saw that as clear evidence that the British government is not going to work constructively on the border issue, and will either do nothing or else play for time in some kind of game of brinkmanship.

 

The failure of the UK to live up to its own commitment on the border issue is highly disrespectful.  It is disrespectful to the EU 27.  It is disrespectful to Ireland.  And it is disrespectful to those citizens of the UK who are being ignored by the British government because it has favoured one community over the other in NI.

 

The EU 27 had some prospect - probably quite a decent chance - of muddling through to a solution as long as the UK acted decently, respectfully and responsibly.  Once it became clear that the UK would not even deliver what it committed to delivering in October it is genuinely very difficult to see how else the EU 27 could have responded last night. 

 

It's all very well trying to pin this on personalities and national politics, but the reality is that when the other 26 governments were briefed on the bilateral meeting between May and Varadkar, even the UK's closest allies in the 27 had nothing positive to say.

 

Thank you.  All makes sense now.

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Thank you.  All makes sense now.

 

It's worth bearing in mind that one of the UK's closest allies in the negotiations is the one country with which it shares a land frontier. 

 

In my view it was a serious error of judgement by May (or perhaps the entire government) to put Varadkar in such a difficult position. 

[Cruyff Turn]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

I am obviously not a constitutional lawyer but I am not clear how any of the above would necessarily conflict with some form of border control.

Nor does it commit the UK to remaining bound by the ECHR.

Nor as far as I am aware has the UK proposed denying the right of people in Northern Ireland to hold EU citizenship.

And of course freedom of movement between within the island of Ireland and indeed between Ireland and the UK existed long before the EU existed and the UK has not suggested stopping it.

It’s not just about the Irish Border. It’s about all the terms agreed to in the Good Friday Agreement in areas where Brexit and EU conflict. The ECHR and Freedom of movement are all part of the Irish Border question. 

 

No one has a problem with Dual Nationality. But it could become a problem if it effects their freedom of movement between N.Ireland and Ireland. Any check points, passport control or hard Border in the Terms of the Good Friday Agreement would restrict freedom of movement of Citizens and infringe on the ECHR which is also a keystone of the GFA. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/04/brexit-northern-ireland-eu-human-rights-law-good-friday-agreement

 

To agree on freedom of movement between Ireland and N.Ireland there would have to be a Customs Union. Which is clearly a red line for the U.K. government.

 

From a Brexiteers point of view, you’d need Hard Border or controls if you were opposed to Freedom of Movement, would you not? 

 

So it’s either a Customs Union or a Hard Border? There is no grey area.

 

The part of the Good Friday Agreement/Belfast Agreement between the U.K. Government and the Republicans which is part of the same thing but a different part of the GFA also comes in to play as it was agreed there would be no checkpoints or infrastructure on the Border. 

 

So to make the deal with the EU, who will not back down in a million years on this N.Ireland conundrum. The British Government would have to break the Devolved settlements between Scotland, Wales and the U.K, as you cannot have separate terms or a Customs Union for one part of the U.K. and not the rest of the U.K. 

 

As I said, Theresa May may as well just resign now because she cannot do anything. She is complete boxed in by the EU and her back bench MP’s. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Cruyff Turn

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

No one is doubting we are leaving, but it's disengenous for the UK government to expect the EU to bend to their whims. 

 

As I posted earlir, we leave the EU but remain in EEA/EFTA (Norway/Switzerland model) but that's not good enough for some Brexiteers.  Well the EU ain't gonna shift, and why should they?

 

The UK is behaving like a spoilt brat, but (and again I mentioned this previously) the narrative will run that it is the EU to blame for the UK not getting the deal it wants.

 

But then maybe that was the plan all along.

 

All well and good but they are expecting a £39bn settlement for us to leave.  They should at least attempt to negotiate with us to get that money.

 

A no deal means they get nothing, and will have a significant shortfall in funding.

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

All well and good but they are expecting a £39bn settlement for us to leave.  They should at least attempt to negotiate with us to get that money.

 

A no deal means they get nothing, and will have a significant shortfall in funding.

Exactly, I don't think the EU have covered themselves in glory over this either. 

 

[Space Mackerel]

11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

All well and good but they are expecting a £39bn settlement for us to leave.  They should at least attempt to negotiate with us to get that money.

 

A no deal means they get nothing, and will have a significant shortfall in funding.

 

UK growth is 0.2%, most EU members are significantly higher than that. I doubt they would be worried about £39 billion.

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

UK growth is 0.2%, most EU members are significantly higher than that. I doubt they would be worried about £39 billion.

So relaxed about it they made agreeing it a precondition for entering into any further discussions.

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

UK growth is 0.2%, most EU members are significantly higher than that. I doubt they would be worried about £39 billion.

 

So they aren't subsidising basket case countries any more?

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

I believe that it is negotiating though.

 

What seems to be irking you is that the EU isn't folding on its red lines.  Similarly, the UK is not folding on its.

 

Stalemate, I think.

 

If the will of the people is so important in all of this, maybe the PM should ask them what they think?

What they think about what?

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So they aren't subsidising basket case countries any more?

 

What EU countries are "basket cases?" Greece has sorted itself out now.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

You don't seem to get it that this is a negotiation, and both sides have to agree.  All we have is the EU saying No to everything to try and force the UK to remain.

 

We are leaving whether the EU likes it or not, its time for the remoaners to accept the reality.

And that reality is that it is not the problem of the EU to come up with a solution to the Irish border. They've already got one. It works right now just fine. The UK is trying to change that and is failing miserably at how to do so without triggering a  constitutional crisis or plunging the halfwits over there back into the 1970s again. 

We are leaving and the brexiteers are making a right ***** of the only thing they've ever wanted to achieve. You couldn't write it.

[Geoff the Mince]

7 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

What EU countries are "basket cases?" Greece has sorted itself out now.

Has it hell 

[Space Mackerel]

Here is a handy wee website that checks what investments the EU have made here. Is not all one-way traffic.

 

https://www.myeu.uk/#/

 

[Ulysses]

20 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

UK growth is 0.2%, most EU members are significantly higher than that. I doubt they would be worried about £39 billion.

 

I don't think it's about the relative growth rates.

 

The UK committed to spending a defined amount of money over a defined period of time. The EU 27 wants to ensure that the UK honours its commitment.  Hence the so-called "Brexit bill", which the UK owes whether it leaves with a deal or without - and which it would owe over 2019 and 2020 if it didn't leave.

 

If the UK doesn't meet its obligations in this respect it will mean the other contributors will have to cover the bills.  But in the final analysis we're talking about roughly 14 weeks of EU budget expenditure, which realistically isn't going to tempt any of the member states to surrender important principles. 

[Rodger Mellie]

23 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

What EU countries are "basket cases?" Greece has sorted itself out now.

 

Unemployment rate in Greece is 19% and the youth unemployment rate is 39%. Sorted??

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Rodger Mellie said:

 

Unemployment rate in Greece is 19% and the youth unemployment rate is 39%. Sorted??

 

I think Space Mackerel was replying to a post related to the EU/IMF bailout programmes.  Greece was the last country in a programme, and it recently exited.  This means that the EU is no longer providing emergency lending to any member states.  

 

In any case, the programmes weren't funded by the EU budget, so the question is unconnected to the UK's obligations under the budget and unconnected to Brexit.

[Rodger Mellie]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I think Space Mackerel was replying to a post related to the EU/IMF bailout programmes.  Greece was the last country in a programme, and it recently exited.  This means that the EU is no longer providing emergency lending to any member states.  

 

In any case, the programmes weren't funded by the EU budget, so the question is unconnected to the UK's obligations under the budget and unconnected to Brexit.

 

Sound. Cheers.

[pablo]

The €39bn figure is only the UK's contribution to the EU's commitments towards future projects isn't it? @frankblack

 

It's not the divorce settlement amount, as surely that's not been agreed yet?

[Boris]

17 minutes ago, pablo said:

The €39bn figure is only the UK's contribution to the EU's commitments towards future projects isn't it? @frankblack

 

It's not the divorce settlement amount, as surely that's not been agreed yet?

And if we don't pay it, our govt may well find itself in court. 

 

So, trade deals. Who wants to sign one with a bunch of spivs? 

[pablo]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

And if we don't pay it, our govt may well find itself in court. 

 

So, trade deals. Who wants to sign one with a bunch of spivs? 

 

Is that what we're threatening? I've not been following this in real time so to speak.

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

I don't think it's about the relative growth rates.

 

The UK committed to spending a defined amount of money over a defined period of time. The EU 27 wants to ensure that the UK honours its commitment.  Hence the so-called "Brexit bill", which the UK owes whether it leaves with a deal or without - and which it would owe over 2019 and 2020 if it didn't leave.

 

If the UK doesn't meet its obligations in this respect it will mean the other contributors will have to cover the bills.  But in the final analysis we're talking about roughly 14 weeks of EU budget expenditure, which realistically isn't going to tempt any of the member states to surrender important principles. 

 

Yeah, I couldn't remember the time frame, was it over 7 years this £39 billion too?

 

My point I was making is that as EU economies increase their GDP relative to the UK's. over that 7 years.

[Boris]

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Is that what we're threatening? I've not been following this in real time so to speak.

I don't think this govt is, but it's certainly been trotted out by the more zealous, iirc. 

[Space Mackerel]

51 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I think Space Mackerel was replying to a post related to the EU/IMF bailout programmes.  Greece was the last country in a programme, and it recently exited.  This means that the EU is no longer providing emergency lending to any member states.  

 

In any case, the programmes weren't funded by the EU budget, so the question is unconnected to the UK's obligations under the budget and unconnected to Brexit.

 

Was it not the European Central Bank? Ive no idea how this relates to the EU though?

[maroonlegions]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

You don't seem to get it that this is a negotiation, and both sides have to agree.  All we have is the EU saying No to everything to try and force the UK to remain.

 

We are leaving whether the EU likes it or not, its time for the remoaners to accept the reality.

Are you May"s spin doctor by any chance,

 

 

May has fecked up big time and no amount of clever spin on the NI bordered is going to save her .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[maroonlegions]

 

 

 

 

The are now not even hiding their arrogance, their blame game or blame anyone but me is in full overdrive.

[Boab1874]

The £39bn is money due to EU. W T O rules means a hard border in Ireland.Which is against U K law. We are not leaving T E C H R .The Belfast agreement states that the E C J controls the agreement.We want or 37% allowed to vote wants to leave the E C J which kills the Belfast agreement.The U K then is open to sanctions from the U N.We have to support the E U as our 4 freedoms are at risk.The E U must stand firm and destroy the scum that run this country..The U K has 22 independent trade deals and 68 with the E U. We cannot trade after March due to Spain veto on using E U deals for 5 -10 Years.W T O will be refused by U S A  Chile and New Zealand..

[maroonlegions]